Sorry for the "urgent," but this request is to help a couple parked next to us who own a 1999 Foretravel U320 (no slide).
They don't use the Internet, so they aren't on the Forum, but they are a lovely pair in their 80s. I hope that if I make it to 80 I am as bright and cheerful as they are! I think Miz Dani may know them, too? But their problem is beyond my technical ability and they are worried that the problem may become urgent. The wife of the couple is attending to coach maintenance right now, because her husband has a really disabling knee problem. BTW, I'm using the awkward "wife" and "husband" terms to avoid naming names, just in case they would be embarrassed.
Here's the situation:
- They are plugged into shore power.
- Their inverter has not worked for months, she says, but it's too expensive to replace. I've looked in the bay under their coach. The inverter itself is not visible, like our ProSine is, but a box is visible (maybe 10" wide x 8" deep, guessing from memory). It has three buttons on it that look like 30 amp circuit breakers? In my limited experience, I haven't seen a box like this and our inverter doesn't have one, but the buttons say "30." They're all in, not popped. The box constantly clicks, as if it's trying to do something but cannot.
- The voltages on their in-coach battery monitoring system have dropped daily during the past week from mid-13s to high-11s. I'm sorry but I don't know what they are using to monitor voltages, because they haven't asked me into their coach, even though I invited the wife come into ours to see if our panel is the same (it was not). Haven't wanted to intrude.
- They have a TINY trickle charger on the house battery bank, installed by a handyman in a previous park where they stayed. It's LED indicators say the batteries 80% charged, but still require charging. Not sure I trust that piece of equipment (or have any confidence it ever worked?), though I'm not technical enough to know why.
- Their three house batteries look relatively new and appear to be (?!) gel 8Ds. At least they look very unlike the flooded batteries our coach had when we bought it, with easily removable caps. Their batteries might have "caps," if that's what they are, completely flush with the top of the battery case. The husband is convinced those caps need to be removed, using a wide flat blade screwdriver in the slot, and distilled water added.
- Tonight the wife phoned. Anything in the coach that runs on 120V is working — refrigerator, microwave/convection oven, 120V outlets — but 12V DC powered lights have died. That's what prompted her sense of urgency.
Help (and big, BIG thanks on their behalf, of course!). They are fine for tonight. Susan & I checked: their heat pumps/strips are working, their AquaHot for bay heat is fine, and she said the coffeemaker will work for morning. Susan & I were concerned because temperatures will be in the mid- to low-20s tonight. They have our cell phone numbers if something goes wrong in the middle of the night. And the wife said she plans to start the generator tomorrow mid-day after they get back from church, to see if it charges whatever batteries they are monitoring. I'm assuming they are monitoring house, not engine, but as I said, I haven't been in their coach.
My only thought is that the charger portion of their inverter continued to work for some period of time after they determined the inverter portion did not — but it now has quit? If so, running the generator won't make any difference, will it? But PLEASE jump in here and feel free to say "No, you're completely wrong but here's the problem." No hurt feelings, no point-of-pride on my part, because I'm out of my technical depth and I can always learn. Who knows? Could happen to Susan and me.
This can be our Forum's Christmas kindness to a really wonderful couple. Thank you, all!
It sounds like they might need a bigger smart battery charger/converter. If their batteries are dead then their AH pumps and heat exchanger fans will not function. I am not sure what size would work.
Roger,
Thanks for the quick response. Their batteries aren't completely dead, although the wife pulled the battery disconnect when she saw the voltages dropping into the 11s to avoid further depletion. Is it true, though, that the AH pumps and heat exchanger fans won't function — even if they are plugged into shore power? If so, I should probably phone them right now, even though they go to sleep about 9:00 p.m. Don't want their bays to freeze up tonight, or for them to wake up cold.
Much appreciated that you are up and answering Forum questions at almost 10:00 p.m. (our time, you're Central, right?).
An added note: as Susan reminded me just now, in the systems classes we did to try to be smart buyers, a distinction was made between the inverter side (12V to 120V) of a combined unit, and the "converter" (120V to 12V). In my previous post, I was using "charger" interchangeably or as if it meant "converter."
If that makes a difference in diagnosing the couple's problem, apologies!
That is pretty low for the batteries. You risk damage getting much lower.
Low batteries, for sure. In my reading (and our limited experience with old flooded cell batteries that died), my understanding is that anything below 12.0–12.1 is likely to do damage? That's why they hit the battery disconnect, because she thought whatever is causing the battery discharge would be stopped?
How long have they been parked ? Did the engine charge the batteries going down the road ? Maybe the inverter/charger is turned off ? If the inverter/charger is not working on shore power, I doubt if the generator is going to help. Sounds like a quick solution would be a charger from auto supply or Wally World, then an order for a Progressive Dynamics converter. Someone else ..... Does the generator start using house, or engine batteries ?
Our generator starts on the "House" batteries,
I think that most others would too.....
Our Forum experts will probably need more info to make a "remote" diagnosis. Would be a big help to know what brand/model inverter-charger is installed. IF the built-in charger is malfunctioning, then it probably won't matter whether the 110 volt source is shore power or generator - still won't charge the batteries. In that case, I see two options for temporarily charging the batteries - either use a heavy duty (external) battery charger and run it off the shore power pedestal, or start the big engine (if it will start) and let the alternator do the job. If the house batteries are real low, it would be a BIG load on the alternator, so I would prefer the stand-alone battery charger.
Richard, short of a battery charger if the charger side of their inverter/charger isn't working I'm not sure what to suggest. If the house batteries are really low switching the boost switch on will just drain the chassis batteries. And then the coach won't start. Running the coach engine will charge both sets of batteries.
If possible double check to ensure the charger is not turned off. If it is not working then the inverter and charger should be turned off and they need to get a charger, a three or four step automatic charger/maintainer, probably 40 amp or so.
I hope someone else will pop in here. I am just not sure what else to suggest.
We have a Freedom 25 charger/inverter. It has the three "30A" buttons on the front. A couple of days ago, it quit charging. After checking several items and finding nothing amiss, I used "percussive maintenance" and it started charging. (I slapped it with my hand.) It's not likely to help them, but it won't hurt either.
Running the "big" engine will charge the house and chassis batteries. A charger from an auto supply or big box store will charge with less noise. Either of those solutions may allow them to stay safe and comfortable until they can implement a proper repair.
This coach hasn't moved in quite awhile, (Richard may know how long, since he's been there awhile) but been pretty much parked.....very nice people but elderly & coach may not be driven again for awhile, if at all. Not sure if they've started it up though or run the engine. Original owners I think.
Richard,
The wife pulled what battery disconnect? Has a disconnect been added to the troubled coach's house battery bank? Do you mean the "salesman's dc disconnect switch" at the front door?
An OEM '99 U320 had (3) 8d Gel Cell batteries. If they are gell cells, the caps on the top are overpressure vents and are not removable. Removing a gel cell's battery caps permanently damages the battery.
An OEM '99 U320 had a Heart Freedom 25 Charger/Inverter, black face, (facing into the cargo bay) would have several circuit breaker resets on the face.
If that is what is clicking, it may well be defective. If percussive force doesn't change anything, turn both the Invertor and the Charger OFF at the control panel in the coach and find another way to charge the house batteries until the charger is repaired or replaced. As I recall, there is a remote "enable" switch labelled ON/OFF, on the face of the Heart Freedom 25, down below. If it has been bumped OFF or has had its position changed to OFF, the control panel up above in the coach will not be able to turn ON or OFF the inverter or the charger, either one. As already mentioned;
- Find a 12Vdc Charger of at least 25 amp capacity or greater: 50 amp capacity is better
- Determine If the "Salesman's" disconnect switch has been opened, nothing dc powered is going to be operable (or present a drain) other than a limited few small alarm and control circuits. Aqua Hot won't run, AC heat strips, dc lighting, dash instruments, Javelina, etc. will be off
- If you run the troubled coach's Cummins, it should charge both the engine and house battery banks
- Running the troubled coach's generator will have no more curative effect than using shore power.
- With the boost switch closed, external cables to another coach's battery bank(s) will (very slowly) charge the troubled coach's battery banks.
- With the boost switch closed, external cables to a toad's battery will (even more slowly) charge the troubled coach's battery banks.
'98's started the generator using the house battery bank (or both house and engine banks, if boost switch is closed). I assume the 99's are the same.
If the coach still has gel cells (or replacement AGM's), it's very important to get them charged back up above 12.2Vdc, and not let them sit for very long in a discharged and (ongoing) discharging condition.
Call me if you need help.
six oh three 770-745 nine
Neal
Battery charger on the batteries is a better alternative than running the big Cummins and having the alternator charge the batteries.
If the batteries are real low- could possibly damage the alternator. Walmart auto section might have a charger available at this late hour if you need to go buy one.
Best of luck
This will be a quick and VERY inadequate thanks for all the guidance, but I wanted to at least say "Thank you" right away. We awakened this morning to the sound of the couple firing up their generator. Going to phone them now and see how the night was. Will update everyone in when we know more.
Most of all, know we are hugely grateful to each of you who took time to help last night. You are a gift of grace to us and to the couple having difficulties. Thank you!
Thank You, Richard, for helping your neighbors out and caring about their welfare. The best part of the Forum is the willingness of our community to step forward and lend a hand, an idea, some encouragement, a pat on the back, what ever it takes for a friend. You are shining the Forum's best light today.
The '99's use house batteries to start the generator. Since they successfully started it, the house batteries should be able to be charged even if the Freedom 2500 is defective. Everything Neal said is correct except there is no enable switch on the invertor. If the charger button on the Link 2000 remote panel has not inadvertently been turned off, the invertor has probably failed and the separate charger is the best temporary solution. The invertor is mounted on the ceiling of the big bay on the driver's side. You can remove the access panel on the front of the invertor and make sure the wire nuts have not been fried.
It sounds (from Miz Dani's input) like starting or moving the coach is not a high priority. If they (you) decide to use the external battery charger, hook it up to the house batteries. After they are fully charged, use the Boost switch to top off the engine start batteries. In freezing conditions, it is best to keep all the batteries fully charged, even if starting the "Big" engine is not anticipated.
I second Neal's recommendation for a 50 amp charger - will do the job a lot quicker for not much more money.
Assuming they do not want to fix/replace the inverter/charger (if diagnosed as non functional) I STRONGLY recommend only a smart charger, 40 amp minimum. Doesn't sound like they are very tech savvy, so a "non-smart" charger will probably destroy over a thousand dollars worth of batteries (as will letting them discharge to 11 VDC!).
But, first step is to properly diagnose the problem, not just start finding patches.
As others have said, if I was faced with this problem and needed to get by the first thing I would do is head to walmart and get something like this Schumacher Electric 100-Amp Engine Start Battery Charger - Walmart.com (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Schumacher-Electric-100-Amp-Engine-Start-Battery-Charger/46167059)
Plug it in, stick it on the batteries to charge them up and then it should automatically maintain them as well just like any converter. Then fix the inverter/charger when finances allow.
Just another quick report on our neighbors, since SO many of you on The Forum have been SO great. Thank you! YOU are the light of Christmas this year (although Susan & I really appreciate your kind words, Roger).
- We checked with the couple next door right after posting to The Forum this morning. They were warm enough overnight, although they discovered what many of you told us, using what you called "the salesman's DC disconnect switch" wasn't a good move. Sorry I didn't know better, to advise them.
- As posted, she started the generator this morning, with the results so many of you said would be the case. She also tried to start the big engine, but either their engine batteries are totally dead or (could this happen?) the mid-20s overnight temps made it impossible to start the engine.
- They went to church with their son this morning, and thankfully, he's more mechanical/electrical than I am. He came back to the coach with them and confirmed the inverter/charger is toast (it was a Freedom 25 — thanks for the identification J.D. Stevens). He's getting an inverter to install.
- We just called them to be sure they are OK tonight (heat, hot water). They said "yes." We invited them over, take our bed and we would sleep in the living room, but she said they're fine. It is supposed to be warmer tonight. We'll check on them in the a.m.
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Thank you again, everyone who responded so quickly (and Neal, thank you, so comprehensively and with the offer of phone support!). We'll keep you posted. I half suspect they'll still end up with a powerful charger/smart charger (thanks to so many who identified this course of action). More when I know more, just because this is a good Christmas story because of ALL of you.
Richard & Susan
if at all possible, get a decent charger on both banks of batteries tonight - is there any chargers in the campground for maintenance to borrow? could be a lot of very expensive batteries quickly going bad if all are discharged.
if equipped, turn on the 110V engine block heater to begin to preheat engine. then if no other charger available, hook toad battery to chassis batteries (the ones that start the main engine that drives the coach) with standard jumper cables and let the toad idle for an hour, with cables hooked to the chassis batteries. That along with the preheat should allow the main engine to fire. The alternator will charge up the house and chassis batteries (might take a while) and there by get the aqua hot working overnight and potentially saving the batteries (if it already isn't too late)
Others may object to idling the diesel for a long time to charge batteries, but OTR truckers often idle their rigs all night while they sleep in cold weather.
good luck!
I love this forum.
I had my Freedom 25 crash and burn a number of years ago. I was able to get it repaired for about $100.00 (was diodes). That was way cheaper then getting a new one. Of course I was not living in it full time and the temps were not in the 20's
Ditto that Jeff!
A wonderful caring group!
Happy Holidays to all
If he's just getting an inverter he's not gonna fix ANYTHING. He needs to get one with a charger built in, or a stand alone charger. They reall don't need an inverter at all if I understand their situation correctly.
It makes no sense to me, how did the generator start with the batteries to low to turn on the lights ?
I was wondering that myself ;) Our generator does not start easily in the cold weather.
When my batteries get too low for the inverter to operate the generator still starts easily. I've tested this in the mid 20's.
Toyman, Mark,
My bad (wording). I meant an inverter/charger combination unit, since that's all I've even seen in my limited experience. Thanks for helping clarify for the Forum thread.
And as a morning update for everyone . . .
Don't know more yet, in that they are out on a laundry run in town. When they return, I'll go over the latest from The Forum with them. It's possible while they are out they MAY be looking for a good smart charger with adequate amperage. We didn't talk this a.m. I just saw their car leave.
Again, thanks to all for caring!
In my 1997 U295 I have the Freedom 25 charger / Inverter. The charger and inverter can be turned on and off from the control that is inside the coach. Could it be the charger was turned off by accident at the control?
Worth checking! The wife is pretty savvy and they have been full-timing for a long time. So, I'm going to guess she checked, but it won't hurt to ask when we make our check-in later this afternoon to be sure they're OK tonight.
I traveled to see Hans and Marget a couple of weeks ago to install a 3rd valve and to have Hans look into why my inverter wasn't working. Hans found that a plastic bin in the basement had pushed the power switch off. All good now.
Mark, I don't know if you have the Isuzu or Kubota but my 8kw with an Isuzu 3LB1engine has started up just fine in subzero weather, just a little white smoke at startup until it warms up. Have never had it not start on the first try. You might check out your glow plugs to see if they are all operational.
Mine is the larger Isuzu 3LD1. It DID start fine in subzero weather but one of the cylinders was missing for about 15-20 seconds and it was spewing epic clouds of white smoke. In my case, I am convinced that one of the glow plugs was not properly connected. I unbolted the strap and reconnected it and it fires up very quickly now. Individually checking resistance of the glow plugs showed them all to be fine.
FWIW,
I believe the generator running will only provide power to the charger inverter. Running the cummins will charge the batteries through the engine alternator. If I am wrong, I apologize but this is what I believe to be the case for my FT.
I had problems with my Freedom 25 charger inverter. I took it out and mailed it to a place called M&M RV electronics in Ohio City, Ohio. They returned it and this has been several months ago and so far so good. No more discharged batteries. This is assuming there is a real problem with the unit vs turning off the wrong switch.
I wanted to mention this as it is cheaper than a new charger inverter. I realize that this is a modified sine wave vs a newer "true sine wave" inverter. This did cost about $500 including shipping. I just wanted to mention this option for consideration.
Best of travels,
Absolutely correct. Yes, from the factory, the alternator charges both battery banks (separated by the diode-based battery isolator.
The converter or inverter/charger charges only the house bank.
Engaging the battery boost switch will allow the converter or inverter/charger to charge the chassis battery as well when on shore power or generator.
Brett...I believe reading in our 95 U300 that the chassis and house batteries are charged when on shore power, the 94 and down FT's need the boost switch on for chassis and house charging.
Please correct me if I read it wrong.
Hans
Our 1995 U320 was originally set up to charge only the house batteries when plugged in to shore power. The boost switch needed to be on to charge the chassis batteries from shore power. I added a separate automatic charger (purchased at West Marine) to charge the chassis batteries when on shore power.
Hans,
As David said, suspect from the factory shore power/generator only charge the house bank.
What "device" does your coach have to charge the chassis battery.
As many have discovered, many prior owners have "fixed" this short sighted issue (not making accommodations for the chassis batteries to be charged from shore power/generator.
There are a number of good ways to achieve this.
BTW, Mike, your 240 is pretty unique, with a very high end smart charger with separate direct output to both banks. Must be a previous owner liked yacht equipment instead of a "dumb" converter that was OE.