I have searched extensively (on this site) and have found answers to questions similar to the one I wish to ask concerning on-line value guides (NADA) and asking/selling prices - so I will word my question in a manner not to rehash old discussions.
Understanding that value is in the eye of the beholder (and seller) and that guides are meant to be just that "guides", I have been discussing the purchase of a 2000 U270 with a seller that is asking double the NADA RV Guide average retail price (using online free NADA service having not checked any options and simply moved on to pricing). I am trying to determine if this unit, which appears to meet my wants/needs, is worthwhile traveling (thousands of miles) to investigate.
This is a non-slide unit (which NADA appears to discount greatly).
My question therefore is: assuming unit is in good/great condition (tires, batteries, service, miles, etc.) can one justify paying 200% of NADA average retail price? When I say "justify" I mean from an economic standpoint, assuming this coach will be sold in the future and I will then be dealing with a buyer (perhaps one using NADA to buy the unit at lower price) and have the same issue again, but in reverse!
Thanks to all in advance. Bruce.
Take a look at used Foretravel asking prices on the Motorhomes of Texas website to see a more realistic value. As has been suggested, forget about what NADA says.
It has also been my observation that since fuel prices have dropped so dramatically, RV prices have been rising. I bought a '92 U300 in 2010 for $24,000, and I don't think I could buy the same RV today for that price, despite the fact that its 6 years older.
As you will have found in the discussions your search turned up, NADA is absolutely meaningless wrt used Foretravel pricing (and I thank everyone in advance for not making this yet another discussion about NADA).
Look at what similar units have sold for at MOT, FOT, etc. That will tell you whether the price is realistic or not.
There is a 2000 U270 at MOT for $53,500.00, that is pending, this should give you a good idea what they a selling for.
Nada requires adding for every piece of equipement listed. That's the way the lenders are setup. Long list. Add every one.
This is not a post about NADA so lets not go there.
NADA is only one of several pricing guides to use. For my purposes, they set the low end of the price scale. Check MOT and FOT for more realistic prices, and PPL for some history. I just ran the numbers on my coach, and found that NADA thinks it is worth $14-17,000. That sets the low point for me. If I would want to sell my coach, and someone offered me $10,000 for it I'd completely ignore it. If I wanted to trade it in on a newer coach and was offered those numbers for a trade-in I might consider it. For a private sale I'd probably ask $35,000.
I just checked PPL and they didn't have any Foretravels like ours, so that source wouldn't work for us, but it may work for you.
As I've said before: whatever your budget is, see what kind of coach you can buy for that money. You'll quickly learn that your dollar goes a LOT farther with a used FT than most other brands. Whatever it's worth to you is the value. If you get stuck on some arbitrary book value, you'll miss out on every good FT on the market.
As for your concerns about resale: if you're very worried about that, I think motor coaches am not be for you.
Just relaying my own experience to you, with respect.
Chris
Bruce,
The statement you made sounds like it came from an optimistic buyer. What you describe does not have hardly anything to do with the value of a sixteen year old Foretravel. Having fairly recently got a loan on my (then) fifteen year old Foretravel, I know how my lending institution used the pricing guide to determine loan value. I honestly do not know which pricing guide they actually used, but it might have been Kelly Blue Book (KBB).
What is relevant is the methodology. They added on to that basic no frills model for EVERYTHING that was listed as a possible add-on that was actually on my Foretravel. That included two A/C's, two furnaces, all of the awnings, all of the equipment that we and Foretravel included as standard equipment. They just went down the list and if it was on my coach, they ticked the box for that item and it was included.
I KNOW that the instructions say NOT to do that, but that is the way my banking institution (in my case a credit union) made their loan to value determinations. You may want to use your number as a buyer. But when you become a seller, you will be happier that they do it the way they actually do in the real world.
If you did your research on Foreforums, I am sure you came across the main problem with Foretravels and the "book value." There is just too small a sample size on which to build a meaningful database. There are many factors to be considered in price. For example, I just had new air bags, shocks, and batteries installed. That was many coach bucks and makes it worth more than one that hasn't had that done. When I put on new tires next year, that will add to the value (while they are relatively new).
Enjoy the hunt, but do not alienate the current owner of what might be the perfect coach for you by trying to throw some arbitrary "book value" in his face.
Hope this helps you understand the process. It's complicated ...
Trent
1.5 years ago I bought my 1998 34' u270. With options and all the stuff clicked on the page, the NADA guide was approximately half of what I paid. and I paid less than asking prices of similar models of motorhomes of texas, etc. So, I got a decent "deal" (not a steal) but it was still higher than NADA value. However, I wanted a 34' coach, it had nice upgrades, low mileage, and was in great shape. $10,000-20,000 can evaporate quickly if you have to do repairs on a "cheap" rv.
Do a search and plenty of NADA discussions. But if you even are able to get a loan, often the bank will only loan up to NADA value. Low volume items like our foretravel RV's, the NADA value, as far as I can tell, is just a straight-line depreciation from the original MSRP.
2000 u 270 with slide could easily push $100,000 in great condition.
You couldn't purchase half as fine an RV for twice the money in the new RV market.
NADA is almost useless regarding older Foretravels. As mentioned above there is simply to few of them and aside from Country Coach there really isn't any older fiberglass makes that even come close in quality. Newell and Prevost based units are another matter entirely. Look at dealer pricing like MOT then shoot for 80%or so as a good price for comparable unit.
They're worth what someone will pay at the end of the day.
If the one you are looking at is in great shape and has maintenance records then it is more then likely worth the asking price. There is no way I would sell my 07 Phenix for NADA. Also I never thought I would be buying my last last coach when we ordered it but that goes to how superior FT's are built.
Just had a friend sell a 08 Dutch Star because of the constant repairs. He was the original owner and took great care of it. It all starts with the foundation and although the Spartan chassis is good no way it comes close to the FT chassis. Not to mention steel sidewalls/endcaps vs aluminum.
Thank you to all that have replied. I will travel to inspect this coach, based on the replies given!
80% of recent asking price at MOT (if pending) might be my starting point and we will see from there where price goes - that is if the inspection of coach results in positive findings.
I have owned 5 coaches, some high end, and know they are a depreciating asset that one can enjoy along the way. I just want to minimize the depreciation by purchasing smart - while at the same time having a coach that is dependable and comfortable!
Thanks again.
Bruce.
Bruce, just another thought after reading your original post again: you are contemplating traveling to see this one coach, right? My suggestion would be that if you're willing to travel, I'd travel to Nacogdoches where you can see multiple coaches in one trip and get a better idea of asking prices vs. condition, etc. I bet you will gain a lot of knowledge and maybe even come across the right coach for you. At least, you will know better the questions to ask private owners as you evaluate coaches like the U270 you're looking at now.
Of course, I didn't do this - but wish I did!
Chris
This a a great suggestion. I had a wonderful buying experience at MOT.
Also remember asking price is not always the selling price. I bought mine much less than asking price.
I tried that ploy during negotiations for our coach (which I'd not seen in person). The PO said he was 'firm' and sent me a pdf listing what he and the earlier PO had done to the coach (including fresh paint & stripes). I'd researched the GV s for six months and knew what "asking" was all over the country. He was asking 10 coach bucks more than average, but the pics and pdf convinced me she was well worth it! A higher price IS worth it, if you've got the POs to talk to and the paperwork to back it up. b^.^d
condition, condition, condition, miles and model /year determine most coaches value.
In our case we stepped up money/condition wise as a 97 40' WTBI U320 mid door was not going to drift by again if ever.
$20k into it later still proud to own it. Needs another similar investment in the next ten years.
Dollar a mile. Normal. 50 cents. You did well. 25 cents you stole something.
Intend to drive out the monetary investment. 20k miles so far.
Then the next owners can do this again I assume.
The purchase price is a part of the experience.
You pay for everyone of your pleasures.
My final offer did not come until after I was done inspecting the coach, Aqua-Hot not working, dash air not working signs of a front roof leak some time in the past etc. This did turn out to be a very good coach but at the time of purchase there were no records of any repairs or maintenance since May of 2005 and we were looking at it in Oct. 2014.
We had a member here (good guy) for a while who'd bought a fairly new FT , that broke down, big time, bringing the coach back to WA State. No one could have spotted the problems that happened to them with a cursory inspection, so he's planning on selling the coach in the spring, because he's (and his DW) "gun-shy". I've had many "your day in the barrel" experiences; it's the luck of the draw. :'(
Bruce- great advice being said here. We bought our 2001 U270 from MOT 8 years ago. It was on consignment and the PO had a number of upgrades done to the coach. Compared to our 2000 Winnebago Adventurer- we thought we died and went to heaven.
Determine how you are going to use the coach- full time, part time, just weekends, etc. Based on that and the condition will help guide you to a fair purchase price for you. A Foretravel in good condition is worth more 16 years old than most others new or nearly new. We plan on living in ours full time at least another 10-15 years. maybe more........... What other coach can hold up 25-30 years and still be a great coach?
Go to MOT and FOT, look at a lot of coaches, get an idea and buy what fits your budget. Then enjoy the journey.
^.^d
When we bought ours a few years ago it was at a price that we could not refuse. After 3 years of stewardship and many coach bucks we are still ahead of the price/cost game - I think. Ours sat for two or three years before we bought her so we had numerous failures after we started to use her. Nothing major but small nagging things like a small water leak, inverter/converter failure, slide creep and some other stuff. We would not have purchased her purchased her at "Full Book" because she would have been out of our budget. We knew buying her was a gamble and being ignorant souls we plowed forward with the purchase. I was bitten by the Foretravel bug, had to have one and the one we bought was the only one available with 2 slides, that my DW had to have, that was still 20K over our budget. I retrospect, I would do it again. It was easier for us to come up with a few grand here and there to repair what needed to be repaired/replaced. If we had known how many coach bucks we would have to spend in the coming years, I don't know if we would have bought her anyway.
I don't know if the problems would have been seen during a pre-inspection or not but that is always a good suggestion - pre-purchase inspection by a qualified person. I also think that if a qualified inspector had inspected ours, a list of repairs would have been generated that might have scared us away. I think that generally speaking if you can purchase from an active owner your coach will be in better shape in terms of maintenance, repair and upgrades.
It is very difficult to view machines that are mostly many hundreds of miles away from you and try to determine if they are in acceptable in terms of quality, model and budget. I think that most of us, that own FTs have struggled with the same issues. Some of us are lucky and fall into the "right" coach, while others are quite meticulous and spend years researching before they purchase.
The more you know the better prepared you will be to recognize the "right" one for you. For me, when I saw her rear end with the shop door open I was stuck.
Read lots of threads, both here and other RV related web sites. PM or call as many owners as you can to better understand the brand and it's products.
Just a side note: In the 3+ years, I'm still a newbie, of my association with this forum I know only of one person that has decided that the FT they bought was a mistake. It is very easy to be overwhelmed by our machines, especially when things go wrong, but in my opinion, the Foretravel brand is solid and the folks here on this web site are tops. We could not be living our life without the support of the FoFum crew. ;D
We purchased our coach in 2010 for a price considerably over book value and have never regretted it. We have had to replace a number of items but considering the coach was over 20 years old and still had the original refrigerator and air conditioners we expected that we would have to replace them soon but much of the coach was refurbished at FOT in 2009, so paying over book seemed warranted. I would much rather pay more and get more. If a coach has been meticulously cared for and updated it is worth more than an under priced, neglected coach.
I am always more suspicious of a "low mileage", bargain vehicle than a well cared for coach with miles appropriate to it age. Now six years later I know we made a wonderful buy. This coach has been much less trouble than most new ones.
Sorry to hear he is throwing in the towel!
We bought our 1981 Foretravel in 1994 and used it for 18 years. Never had to pay anyone else to do repairs or maintenance. Bought the Monaco Signature in 2012 and after only three years I wanted to go back to a Foretravel, just one with air suspension. The Monaco was not a bad coach just not a Foretravel. After changing the fuel lines, replacing the air conditioner compressor and receiver drier, speedometer and other small items I am still under book value and have a Foretravel again
"I think that generally speaking if you can purchase from an active owner your coach will be in better shape in terms of maintenance, repair and upgrades. " ^.^d
There was a depreciation schedule a member posted a while ago which helped me immensely when I was shopping around. Maybe some one can find it and re post it. I was looking at 98-2000's and could have gotten several from the mid twenties to mid thirties. I hadn't sold my existing rv which forced me to pass on a 99 320 for 27000. Also saw a 2000 34' 270 for 23000 . Those were both at NADA values for what it's worth. Deals are out there for those that wait. Don't forget to ask if they've been smoked in. Good luck .
Here's a link to Elliot's great post: Coach financing chatter (split from 1996 Foretravel U270 For Sale) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=19997.msg143753#msg143753)
Good Luck, Dave A
We didn't even bother to check "book" values when we purchased our U320 a little over three years ago. We didn't need to finance it and so "book" value really didn't matter. We spent months carefully reviewing any asking and selling prices we could find and based our decisions upon those findings. We have been extremely pleased with our purchase and are quite satisfied that our purchase price was quite reasonable.
We didn't look at book values when we bought our 99 U320 42 DGFE a couple years ago. It's a rare coach but amazingly one was for sale at MOT at the exact same time. The asking price was only $70K I think there and not sure what ended up settling for. That one was pretty original renovation wise. I have no idea how much wiggle MOT has but we ended up buying our coach for the same price. The dealer wanted $75K I think so there wasn't much wiggle. Our coach had been well maintained for all its life up until the previous 3 years before we bought the coach where it did a lot of sitting with no fluid changes whatsoever. We found dash a/c broken, tile problems, toilet problem, intellitec system was broken, and careful testing revealed the beginnings of a window o-ring leak but no real damage to speak of.
What convinced us though is that the previous owner had a deep wallet and basically rebuilt most of the aquahot (someone raped him on unnecessary maintenance), spent $30K at the foretravel factory on a full body paint job and cabinetry work to install a 42" samsung LCD tv. He kept having issues with the generator too. He really did his best but he was a reactive owner which can get you into trouble with these things.
The dealer was a skeezy consignment lot but we made them sign a contract indicating that they will fix all of the things wrong or we get our deposit back. Took 2 months but they pulled through and fixed every single thing. I don't think they expected us to hold them to it when we made them sign that. We got probably $2000 in repairs done. The dealer that had it was less than half hour away so we inspected the coach for several days before even writing an offer. There is a very real benefit in buying a local coach if you plan to be a pain in the butt.
What really helped us pull the trigger is that they let me do oil analysis and drive the coach to cummins Tampa for a dyno test. Not only did this allow me a full 2 hours drive time in the coach before pulling the trigger but I got to get a decent picture of engine health (which according to them was "nominal". Also got to see ecu readouts including lifetime mpg and max speed (89 mph!).
I'm not sure a larger dealership would have been so accommodating. I can only guess that they were making at LEAST $10K on our coach.
But the point I'm making is that there is a lot to coach values. You might overpay $10K for a coach and that overpayment may *really* make sense for reasons that may matter only to you.
Sometimes the perfect coach for your needs/requirements and finances finds you.
I have been extremely lucky. I ended up with a wife better than any I would have selected and we ended up with a coach that met all our needs. (And we didn't even know what a Foretravel was, let alone a GV)
You just have to know when the opportunity is the right one for you.
We did and we have never been sorry.
Our 27 year old coach is still a big step above most of the used SOBs we see for sale--and for a heck of a lot less $$$.
+ ours with fresh gelcoat and stripes, people have remarked, "Is this coach brand new?" ^.^d
Bruce,
Let Susan & me echo what Carol & Scott said: it is very easy to be overwhelmed. We are super-newbies at 9 months (and we're full-timers), not 3+ years. There have been days I've wondered, "What on earth did we do?" We about $15K above our purchase price now, spent in thirds: $5K for steer tires we knew the coach needed, but also batteries we didn't; $5K for maintenance we had done to bring the coach to a "baseline" for us; $5K for discretionary upgrades.
The inconvenience of downtime in the shop, and the "unknown unknowns" that may still become gotchas, are what have caused the our anxiety. But would we do it again? Yes. The quality of these coaches compared to anything for which you would pay 2x-4x is worth the dollars, the anxiety, and temporary headaches.
Over the past 9 months, we've lived through everything from 100 degree temps to single digits. We've traveled about 5,000 miles and are about to leave for a 4,000 mile, three week round-trip to Phoenix. We've talked to owners of new high-end coaches, who have been at the factory to get things corrected TRIPLE the time we've spent in the shop. And we've had owners of some other high-dollar coaches find it hard to believe we're fine — warm and comfy, all systems working, no drafts, no problems — in a 17 year-old coach, surrounded by 12" of snow and temps in the teens.
You've gotten great guidance on this thread, and as the post quoted above says, "We could not be living our life without the support of the ForeForum crew." Thanks to all and very best wishes to you!
So much has already been said on this thread, I tried to hold off adding to it.....and I hope no one, especially a newbie, misunderstands what I mean, for I am probably not quite as literal as some would try to make it......
But you cannot pay too much for a good coach. (remember, I mean find a really good one and pay extra if needed)
good luck,
mike
This is a long post for others who are going down this path, this is what we did right or wrong. The following was our methodology and reasoning.
After well over 100,000 miles of bumper pulling and loving it, the gear was getting to be a bit much. We spoke with others our age, 67, at 2015s Quartzite gathering who were moving to motor homes. Steph was strongly in favor but I had this thing about assets depreciating 55 percent in the first five years. The question was not what could be afforded but rather what should be spent. I dutifully ordered the Consumer Guide like info online and began the learning process.
After hitting many shows including Hershey and Tampa we became familiar with brands, layouts and prices. But it wasn't going well because we wanted straight forward construction without unnecessary bells whistles and mirrors. We asked ourselves how we would use it...back and forth snow birding? Continuing to log thousands of miles journeying where ever? We will continue hitting the road...therefore we did not want or need a slide. We wanted good tankage, interior simplicity, mechanical integrity.
What should the budget be? We did not want to finance and preferred to find something we could spend cash for and be able to absorb the cost if the whole thing blew up and got parted out. We decided on a total budget of 75,000. After reading and reading and reading this site, I put together a spreadsheet with the costs of common repairs, renovations etc.
Back to the consumer guide. In that info I learned the most respected name in the business was one I had never heard of which of course was Foretravel. I started scouring the Internet and finding examples in various years, models and conditions. After a visit in early November to MOT, we got our first hands on look at a variety of models and years. Went after two but they moved before we did. We decided that we wanted a 270 with the CGXX floor plan. We wanted the lighter oak and simpler design etc. We then returned to VA only to have it pop up in Waco TX. The coach was a 97 270 with 78,000 miles. Stored under a shed. Now here is how I computed the price. The tires had 25 miles on them and 5 of the 6 were 2013 Michelins the other was December of 2012. I depreciated the 20% per year and valued them at 2,800. It had 2013 house batteries continuously plugged in and I allowed 750. The refrigerator was a new Norcold that still had plastic wrapping and had never been used 1200. We settled on 33,000. My apples to apples price 28,250. I might have done better but time is not my friend.
Brett Wolfe did our inspection and informed us the coach had good bones. We have broken our budget out into three phases. Phase one, mechanical, was done by Bernd and has been completed. Phase two was remodeling was done by Mitch at Infinity and repairs at Foretravel. Phase three is exterior and will begin Monday with new decals and gel coat renewal at Steves in Apache Junction and finally the light and step conversions with James in August. I will post details and pictures in the future for each phase entitled newcomers purchase phase x. We are keeping the unused funds as a holdback. We just logged our first 1700 miles on 40 through differing elevations etc. How sweet is that 8.3 / 3060 chassis. Really enjoyed it.
When we bought our present coach it was my 2nd FT so had some ideas on them. Just wanted air and diesel Gen next time.
Saw an ad in RVT and called owner 2000 miles away. He sent 64 pictures and within a week I was on an aircraft to Costa Mesa calif' to inspect. Had a good talk then drive. He had spent serious money on it (around $37,00) to update with paint, Banks, Back up cam, and lots of other good things, but was having Financial trouble. This coach was advertised over 2 yrs with only scam bites. I was only person to go see it???? I flew back home and told Ruth I was buying it then made a deal with them and sent the money 10 days before going back to drive home and take Title. Yes, fully paid before title, that was how I felt with them-honest folks. They had coach ready for me with a full tank of fuel, water, full propane and food in fridge with juices for my trip.
No looking at Nada or? just a good feeling that has paid off I feel and since that day the needed repair bills have been under $4000,( tires and batteries extra of course as we all need to do that at some time). My "gut feeling" was right for us.
It has been a fun ride and will continue.
JohnH
Call your insurance provider for worth of your coach and /or intended buy
SURPRISE SURPRISE
Wow all tanks full (well the ones you want to be full) and a fridge with food. That's how it should be ;)
Yes it is, and we still comunicate by email after all those years and he is happy we are improving it and enjoying it. Nice people.
JohnH
We ran into finance issues when buying our coach as NADA had our coach undervalued and when it came to getting financing through USAA we could not get approved for actual selling price. MOT and Allied Insurance use Recreational Vehicle Blue Book (http://www.rvvaluesonline.com/) which is listed under Price Digests site. It requires a fee for use. This site had our coach valued at 1.8 times the NADA value .
Hi all. I was fortunate to find a 1992 Grand Villa Limited Edition with 141,000 miles on it. The exterior is in great shape with only slight fading of the stripes, has new tires, new batteries, super clean inside with minor wear, and has all manuals and records. I think I have a shot at getting it for $18K...is this a good deal for decent miles and 8/10 condition?
Thanks in advance!
What engine does it have?
You might ask yourself, how much fun can you afford to buy, or pay?
What can you do for that kind of money, and have any resale value if you were to want to get out, in a year or two? If you buy and hate and give it to charity, you are likely ahead, after enjoying some number of trips.
When I shopped the 5 state area for my 2004 Avalanche, new in 04, I paid more for that truck than either of the Foretravels. Lost $40,000 on that truck in 10 years. Does not seem like if you like the coach, and have the money, you can only lose $18,000, plus unknown repairs.
We bought our's, and feel after 5 years, they are priceless! Enjoy your adventures.