Today I was plugging in and my EMS ( at the pedestal) was giving me error messages,- low voltage. Never got a good reading so I went to the next site to check it , same thing. I was not in the mood for this so I decided to get out my multi meter and guess what, 121 volts on both legs. Same on the alternate site. Lucky I have a 50 amp portable surge guard for some protection, plugged it in, checked the lights- all good. Inside, full power both legs.
I will be calling Progressive in the morning ( at the Marine Corps Fam. Camp in 29 Palms California) to see about getting this fixed.
This is my second unit, the last one was replaced at no charge last fall. We are full timers and like the protection of the EMS, but wondering if this is unusual to have 2 failures since last summer ( that is when I purchased this unit). I am sure Progressive will take care of this, they are a good company to work with.
Lesson learned, I will check the pedestal with my multi-meter first before plugging anything else in, including a portable EMS from Progressive.
I've had mine installed for 1.5 years and it has saved me on a few occasions (low voltage due to long cords). It hasn't had any problems. I'm sure they will take care of you though.
edit: I have the hardwired unit I installed.
I too have had two failures with my 50amp Progressive pedestal EMS over the last few years. I believe water intrusion was the cause on one of the failures. Progressive fixed the EMS both times and immediately returned it with no questions asked. I have since purchased a cheeper 50amp Progressive EMS as a back up in case it fails again. After I sent the 1st EMS in for repair I just plugged the coach into the pedestal thinking I would be OK. I had a thunderstorm roll through and had a surge. Well I fixed everything and will never plug into shore power again without protection. It is cheeper to replace the EMS than to track down and fix damage done by a surge.
We have had one failure, last year. I sent ours back and they provided us with a new one promptly.
I was concerned about an exterior EMS even though it was supposed to be waterproof. I was also a bit concerned about the remote possibility of theft. So I did the internal install. It wasn't anywhere near as difficult as I expected it to be. Four years now. Flawless. It has detected errors in wiring and prevented a bad or potentially dangerous connection three times. And low voltage a couple times. Like many I would not be without one.
Had mine (portable)fail after about a year. Progressive took care of it quickly no charge.
So Roger, this sounds like the way to go, & my FT tech can install....my main question is, seems a lot of people have had them fail, what if an internally installed one fails? Isn't it harder to get at to repair? I'd be concerned about theft as well, the reviews say the locking mechanism isn't that good. Need to do this soon....been lucky so far but luck can only hold out so long. Decision is external or internal. :-\
I checked out their best internal, {Progressive] on their website and they have a bypass device. That would solve the temporary failure problem. As for how difficult to remove, I'll leave that up to someone who has already done it. This is the way I will go when we decide to go to hookups.
That's just needed with the LCH (built in display) models. Progressive Industries RV Surge and Electrical Protection industry lea (http://www.progressiveindustries.net/#!rv-power--surge-hardwired/c1p4w)
The H models with separate display come with the bypass switch. We have an H plus the RDS remote display and switch box. One display in the utility bay for when we first hook up, one inside the coach.
Miz Dani - Just my thoughts -
What we do not know is: What year the failed devices were built and how many of the devices were made that year. Soooo - We really do not know their actual failure rate.
We sometimes lock ours using a bicycle cable to the pedestal but most often we do not. We have not heard directly from anyone that uses this device that theirs had been stolen.
When ours failed I contacted the manufacturer and a replacement was received within 5 working days. No questions asked.
We believe that this is an important coach part and wouldn't be without it. I like the idea if it being "built-in" but I also like the idea of portability. We acquired our when we bought the coach so we did not have to make your decision.
Which ever way you decide you will be providing your coach with good electrical and surge protection.
Good luck. ;D
Changed my post to reflect that it is included with the best model. That explains the price difference between the 2 models.
Hi Dani!
Susan and I have been pleased with ours (internal installation, done by Bob Evans at Tennessee RV). Others have noted you can bypass. Have it installed to protect against shore power, but not the generator. That always gives you the option of running on generator until a new part comes. I haven't done a "board swap," but according to the tech at Progressive Industries, that's generally all that's necessary even in the event of failure.
We thought hard about external. Decided we didn't want the risk of theft or bother of locking it up. We also had two monitors installed — one in the wet bay, so we can watch the quality of incoming power while connecting, and one upstairs in the coach, so we can watch loads to better understand the amps for various devices when boon docking or on generator only.
Hope to see you soon! Heading for Phoenix Thursday.
Richard & Susan
Dani, there is plenty of room in the electronics hole at the end of the bed of the hardwired EMS box. I think I moved a couple of green gound wires a few inches for clearance where the box mounts. The most important thing is to use the very fine stranded copper wire of the correct size for the installation. I think this is SO or SOOW wire. The very fine stranded wire is very flexible and easier to make the bends needed. The very fine wire strands may need a copper sleeve over them where they are attached to the the device to provide strain relief. Your electrical installer will have the appropriate parts.
I started with the single display that comes with the hardwired model. There is plenty of wire to mount it where it works for you but you still have to get the wire to the display location. I am adding a second display over in the service bay so I can see what it says when I connect. It will show you any error codes and (normally) the voltage in each line and the amps being drawn through each line
I have an internal unit in mine that was installed by the previous owner. There are two display stations, one inside by the heart interface and one in the utility bin by the electrical hookup. this is handy so you can monitor it from both inside and out.
I did have a problem with it awhile back. It kept throwing a code for open ground. after verifying the problem was the progressive, I bypassed it and everything worked fine. On the phone with Progressive techs, we determined it was the circuit board so they sent me a new one. Bear in mind that this unit is about 15 years old and to my knowledge, this is the first issue ever with it. Had I been the original purchaser, it would have been replaced without charge. I bought the circuit board for about $80 and installed it. its been working fine ever since.
It turned out that a nut inside the unit had worked its way loose and dropped down onto the circuit board and caused the problem.
The pic is all we have (I think), so more protection is needed. I'm looking at the Progressive PT50C (spendy little dears), but cheap since I think after Brett sold the coach, the PO took a hit that trashed the ATS and all the cable connections, including the female in the wet bay, plus I think caused our furnace problem. Are there any pros/cons to the PT50C? Thanks, M
Mike,
Personal preference, but I would lean toward a permanently installed one. Plenty of room for it in the "electrical compartment" under the foot of the bed.
Install it in the line from shore power to ATS, then new wire EMS to ATS.
Scott mine was a year old when it failed.
Brett,
I had planned to install it between the ATS and the panel, but then, . . .
I discovered that I have two identical ATS units, one to the left and lower than the other one.
Now, what?
But then my guru says to protect the incoming shore line instead.
BTW, when there are two ATS's, what is the second (or first) one doing?
Bottom line: you are recommending installing the EMS-HW50C on the incoming shore power line, correct? Is it as simple as cutting that cable and installing the EMS at the cut (assuming it will physically fit in that location)?
Thanks,
Trent
Can you follow the wiring? Is one perhaps the main (shore/generator) transfer switch and the other the one that has mains/inverter as its 2 inputs (and outputs to only some circuits)?
Unless I'm missing something (normal at my age), I'd think a "whole coach" EMS at the point-of-connection (pedestal) would be the answer. ^.^d
Mike's coach only has one ATS.
SOME coaches with an inverter have a second ATS, some have an inverter with built-in ATS (called "Pass Through Feature").
There are arguments pro/con each location:
At CG pedestal: Protects everything, but is subject to water intrusion and theft.
Between shore power inlet and ATS: Protects ATS and everything "downstream" of it. Built in. No protection for shore power cord and inlet.
Between ATS and 120 main breaker box: Protects only downstream of ATS (NOT ATS), but both from shore power and generator. At first sounds like best place, but most generators have control systems that shut them down if high or low voltage occurs.
My opinion (and only that) is that I would put one between shore power and ATS, built in-- as I suggested to Mike for his coach.
Have a great and safe trip....Let us know when your back in "town"
H&M
Either way, I agree with all of you. We're planning on spending the summer at a higher altitude (5k) and up there (Prescott Valley, AZ) we get monsoons almost daily with thunder & lightning (great view!) Being hardy types, we can handle a power outage, but NOT want some "crawl-thru" power anomaly, like I think happened to our coach. :-\
Mike, et al;
A surge protector is NOT, repeat NOT designed to handle a direct or even near-by lightening strike. And they will say so in their disclaimer.
Best practice (BY FAR) is to unplug during an electrical storm. Spikes can come in not just hots, but also neutral and/or ground connections, so turning off breakers is no guarantee of isolation.
So, if I (or Dianne) are in the coach and hear thunder, the CG breaker is turned off and the shore power cord is unplugged, PERIOD. Same if I am looking at radar and a storm is approaching. League City, TX (77573) Forecast | Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=77573) (for your location) is your friend!
Sorry for any confusion I caused, I was responding to Trent. Feel free to delete my posts if needed to keep the topic on track.
No, Michelle, it is good for readers to know that there is no "this is how they are all wired"!
We use that same WU bookmarked for our areas. Great info, Brett! b^.^d Gives the gen-set an excercise, as well.
Thank you, friends! Will do. Had hoped to stop through Nacogdoches, too, but our route put us there over a weekend and we couldn't change the departure or arrival dates on either side of that weekend.
Looking forward to getting back together and catching up soon.
Hi Ted & Karen,
I bought a portable 50 amp unit from John Lang. John was the second person to run this forum. I had a failure. I called Progressive and they said to send it in. I did, and expected to get a call with repair details and costs. A few days later I received a brand new unit no charge. Now that's great customer service.
Raymond
Update- talked to Progressive- another unit is on the way to my next destination next week. I am boon docking now but I have my Progressive Surge Protector if I need to plug in before I get the new one. I will send the old one back in- great company to deal with.
FYI- a lot of talk about theft- have been using pedestal units for over 6 years ( with a bicycle cable lock when possible) and no theft.
Guess I shouldn't say it too loud.
Always use protection at a campground, who knows how much $$$$ damage back electricity can do to your unit.
Help me out here,do I understand you have a coach-wired EMS and a back-up portable EMS ?
Mike- I do not have the hard wired EMS- I use the portable one at the pedestal. My other Progressive is a portable surge protector with the LED lights on it- offers protection but not as much as the EMS. I had the surge protector before I bought the EMS.
The price difference between the two is (gasp) different. So, bottom line, should I open the safe and buy the EMS-PT50C ?
Mike, I installed the hard wired unit and it works great...the install is hmmm "tight" not the unit but running the cables into the box.
Took about 4 hours for me....
Hans
The PT 50C is what we use.
Mike- like most things you have to decide what works best for you. Both in protection ( no difference) , ease of use, and cost.
I like the portable because if it finds something wrong it cuts it off before bad electricity gets to damage anything in my coach. The trade off is it is exposed to the weather and the slight chance of theft ( I covered that in another post).
Having protection is better than not- like having to replace an inverter/charger ( ask me how I know that one......lol).
Hope this helps Mike
^.^d
I installed two units under the bed - one on the shore power side of the transfer switch and one on the coach side, so transfer switch is protected from shore problems, and the coach is protected from generator problems.
One of them has been on for 7 years, and the other for 5 years, and no problems so far.
We also disconnect from the pedestal if we expect or hear thunder.
Great news about Progressive Surge protectors.
We purchased the SSP-50XL at the Tampa RV show in January. Will install it when we get home in May.
Just a word about campgrounds power pedestals. We were in Bahia Honda SP, Fl. last Dec, 2015. We had problems with the 50a breaker tripping. I reported it to the Rangers before we left and they said that it would be repaired.
So here we are in the same site arriving Feb 8, 2016. Now the breaker is dead on one leg.
Their electrical certified Ranger pulls the panel apart. Finds both the 30a and 50a breakers loose to the bus bar. Then finds the feed line not even attached to the 50a terminal, just pushed into the hole. There was even more problems in the box, but that covers the main problems.
Sure wished that I had the surge protector installed at that point. We didn't suffer any problems and hadn't turned anything on yet.
That was a close call, don't want to do that again.
I will be installing the extra remote read out in the utility bay and the other one inside somewhere.
Just a heads up to anyone looking to install the hardwired version of the Progressive Industries 50 Amp EMS... I had the unit installed before the transfer switch in Quartzsite a couple of years ago. The installer was fairly competent (refreshing in my experience :o ) and he installed it under the bed as most have done. Well... the unit had a noticeable 60 cycle hum. Not super loud, but in the quiet of the night, not very restful.
Bottom line, I relocated it to the utility compartment when I installed the Glendinning power cord and hose reels.
Utility Bay 2.0, Part 1- WasteMaster Camlock Sewer Hose Install (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=21231.0)
The relief was immediate ;D ;D as Tys was particularly bothered by the noise. The units apparently vary in how much they hum, and some owners who have called to complain have been told that is just the nature of the beast (according to some other forums I read while doing some web searches on the problem). Anyway, when I install a second unit between the generator and the transfer switch, I will be instilling that somewhere close to the generator...
Don
Thanks Don for the head ups.
The utility compartment was one of my choices.
Interesting, I'd never thought of a EMS off the gen, I suppose it's a good idea, tho I've never had problems with my Onans doing freaky things. ^.^d
Dick & Sue,
Thanks for sharing your campground wiring problems, as these may exist more than we realize. How did you plan to install your SSP-50XL?
Surge protectors like Progressive Industries SSP-50XL do not protect from over and under voltages. Too low voltage will cause motors, like in roof A/C to draw too many amps and may permanently damage the motors. Protection against too low voltage which may only last a short time while neighboring coaches cool down at the same time may still do permanent damage, so an automatic over/under device should always be used.
The word "Surge" when used in power strips and other devices seem to be marketed in a way that offers total protection, when In my opinion, do little to protect us from every day common electrical issues. Inside the devices may only have inexpensive MOV components. Extracted from Varistor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor) :
"A MOV does not provide equipment with complete power protection. In particular, a MOV device provides no protection for the connected equipment from sustained over-voltages that may result in damage to that equipment as well as to the protector device. Other sustained and harmful over-voltages may be lower and therefore ignored by a MOV device."
"A (MOV) varistor provides no equipment protection from inrush current surges (during equipment startup), from overcurrent (created by a short circuit), or from voltage sags (also known as a brownout); it neither senses nor affects such events. Susceptibility of electronic equipment to these other power disturbances is defined by other aspects of ... system design, ... a voltage regulator or a surge protector with built-in overvoltage protection (which typically consists of a voltage-sensing circuit and a relay for disconnecting the AC input when the voltage reaches a danger threshold)."
I don't know what is inside the SSP-50XL. We think that Progressive Industries makes the best RV electrical protection products.
Like others we have hard wired Progressive Industries EMS devices on the shore cable to the transfer switch and on the cable from the transfer switch to the main breaker panel. For years we only had one device on the cable to the main breaker which seemed to offer protection from both sources.
When the protection is only on the shore cable we are not protected against generator anomalies. Two years ago as we started our 2-week Quartzsite dry camping session, our EMS protected us from transient generator 160-volts caused by a failing voltage regulator. We observed the high voltage several times and a quickly ordered an over-night new plug-in regulator from PowerTech, which fixed the problem.
Later we heard that someone had a high voltage power line surge that fried the transfer switch which fused relay points allowing the surge to destroy the generator circuits. Since our EMS was not protecting for this type of problem, we added a 2nd EMS on the shore cable before the transfer switch.
After finding an invoice this morning (not you, Brett) where the ATS and all the shore power connections were replaced, I KNOW this coach took a pretty good hit (coach buck and change to repair) , I'm on it for more than I have (which is just polarity). I've researched Progressive, and they seem to be the answer. The "buzz words" (pun intended) are "detects" and "protects". The SSP-50XL only "detects" open ground, open neutral & reverse polarity. The EMS-PT50C "protects" against over/under voltage, open ground, open neutral and "accidental 240 volt protection". I think it was Oscar Wilde who said, "I have the simplest of tastes, I'm always satisfied with the best." EMS-PT50C is on order. b^.^d
UPDATE: With an adapter, the PT50C will protect on a 30 amp pedestal, as well.
Good call Mike- I forgot to mention that the PT50C also works on 30 amps with the adaptor. Many parks I go to have only 30 amps so I use it that way also.
^.^d
My hardwired Progressive was frequently cycling with low voltage indicated. Took a known good Fluke meter and checked incoming voltage, it was ok. There is a small pot with an adjusting screw, turned it until the display read the same voltage as the Fluke meter. No problems since other than a capacitor lead which broke from vibration, resoldered. Nice to know Progressive has such a liberal repair replacement policy if needed but easier to fix on the spot.