Title: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 12:45:09 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 12:45:09 pm
I'm in NAC having a bay door oops repaired at Xtreme and when taking off the door surround find that a corner of the metal box frame that forms the bottom between the bulkheads is very rusted. The bulkheads showed some rust but the extent of the problem wasn't obvious until the floor was removed.. Water must have gotten into the frame for quite a while but the source of the leak is not obvious although there were several places where a little water was getting in.
The coach is now at Bernd's with the entire frame off and plans to rebuild it from new metal. I'm sure it will be better than original because of the care they are taking.
My comprehensive insurance looks like it will help - I'd rather not share publically the name of my insurance company. The coverage decision is mostly in the hands of the independent appraiser anyway.
FYI - The frame is a sandwich of metal box framing with foam insulation between two sheets of Filon FRP (fiber reinforced polymer). The area just above the AquaHot exhaust melted from the heat. I'm going to install a heat shield.
The coach is now at Bernd's with the entire frame off and plans to rebuild it from new metal. I'm sure it will be better than original because of the care they are taking.
My comprehensive insurance looks like it will help - I'd rather not share publically the name of my insurance company. The coverage decision is mostly in the hands of the independent appraiser anyway.
FYI - The frame is a sandwich of metal box framing with foam insulation between two sheets of Filon FRP (fiber reinforced polymer). The area just above the AquaHot exhaust melted from the heat. I'm going to install a heat shield.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: wolfe10 on March 25, 2016, 12:51:43 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on March 25, 2016, 12:51:43 pm
Larry,
Would appreciate pictures/information on how they removed the floor, leaving ?what? in place: tanks? vertical bulkheads? etc?
Was the coach from up north (salt)? Water leak in wet bay? Other?
Would appreciate pictures/information on how they removed the floor, leaving ?what? in place: tanks? vertical bulkheads? etc?
Was the coach from up north (salt)? Water leak in wet bay? Other?
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 01:09:57 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 01:09:57 pm
Wow! Trying to wrap my brain around how they managed to remove the entire basement floor. They must have removed all the stuff resting on the floor: Fuel tanks, propane tank, waste tanks, FW tank, etc. Then it would be just a matter of unbolting all the Roloks from the bottom and the bulkheads. Maybe easier to figure out how to support all of those items in place than to remove them, but man, either way that is a lot of work! Even more to put it all back together... I would hope that when it goes back in with the rebuilt frame that the coach is parked on very level ground. I suppose they will use the old skin as a template for drilling the holes through the new steel, or else try to avoid the old fastener locations and make new holes. Are they going to reuse the old basement skin? Mind blowing to say the least! Good luck with the repairs.
Don
P.S. Please post as many pictures of the work in progress, this will likely be of interest to many of us!
Don
P.S. Please post as many pictures of the work in progress, this will likely be of interest to many of us!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Michelle on March 25, 2016, 01:19:47 pm
Post by: Michelle on March 25, 2016, 01:19:47 pm
FYI - The frame is a sandwich of metal box framing with foam insulation between two sheets of Filon FRP (fiber reinforced polymer). The area just above the AquaHot exhaust melted from the heat. I'm going to install a heat shield.
Larry - I'm trying to mentally orient the photo of the floor with how it was in the coach. Upper right in the photo I see a small rectangular cutout that might represent where the sewer drop is. Similarly the section I think I see melting in is kind of upper mid on the photo. Are we looking at the "floor" from what would the underside, thus the area with the most rust damage (lower right of the photo) represents perhaps the bay just behind the entry door curbside?
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 01:21:06 pm
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 01:21:06 pm
Larry,
Glad to hear that your insurance is going help pay for the repair.
It looks HUGE!
Keep the pictures coming.
Glad to hear that your insurance is going help pay for the repair.
It looks HUGE!
Keep the pictures coming.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 01:27:08 pm
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 01:27:08 pm
Are we looking at the "floor" from what would the underside, thus the area with the most rust damage (lower right of the photo) represents perhaps the bay just behind the entry door curbside?
Yes.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 01:31:24 pm
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 01:31:24 pm
Like everyone else, I'd sure like to know WHAT caused that! Looks to me the repair is something
only a "Nacogdochian" could pull off!
only a "Nacogdochian" could pull off!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 01:33:52 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 01:33:52 pm
I am preparing a post with more info to answer the questions. Bottom line, is that the job to take out everything in the bays except for the partitions between the bays wasn't as hard as it may seem. (Just took time.) Bernd's guys have done this before.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: John Haygarth on March 25, 2016, 01:55:22 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on March 25, 2016, 01:55:22 pm
Amazing, I would like to see a picture of what the Bays look like with floor out. In other words all bay doors open and a shot along sides.
JohnH
JohnH
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 02:24:20 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 02:24:20 pm
Quote
Would appreciate pictures/information on how they removed the floor, leaving ?what? in place: tanks? vertical bulkheads? etc?
Quote
Was the coach from up north (salt)? Water leak in wet bay? Other?
Here's a picture of the rear bulkhead area after the Filon, foam insulation and sheet metal have been removed showing the frame. There was some surface rust but after wire brushing it was found to be solid. The plan is to use stainless steel fastened with stainless steel rivets to replace the metal. This will avoid welding on the frame.
Quote
I suppose they will use the old skin as a template for drilling the holes through the new steel, or else try to avoid the old fastener locations and make new holes.
Quote
Upper right in the photo I see a small rectangular cutout that might represent where the sewer drop is. Similarly the section I think I see melting in is kind of upper mid on the photo. Are we looking at the "floor" from what would the underside, thus the area with the most rust damage (lower right of the photo) represents perhaps the bay just behind the entry door curbside?
Quote
Are we looking at the "floor" from what would the underside, thus the area with the most rust damage (lower right of the photo) represents perhaps the bay just behind the entry door curbside?
Quote
Like everyone else, I'd sure like to know WHAT caused that! Looks to me the repair is something
only a "Nacogdochian" could pull off!
Yes, the folks a Xtreme and Bernd's have been great about figuring out the best way to fix it. And my DW has been super. We caught a break in that the customer apartment at Xtreme was available, so we are staying there for most of the time we can't get into the coach. Thank you, James! And Bernd and his team have been upfront about everything they have to do. Thank you, Bernd!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 03:44:50 pm
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 03:44:50 pm
Yes, the folks a Xtreme and Bernd's have been great about figuring out the best way to fix it. And my DW has been super. We caught a break in that the customer apartment at Xtreme was available, so we are staying there for most of the time we can't get into the coach. Thank you, James! And Bernd and his team have been upfront about everything they have to do. Thank you, Bernd!
Amazing. They don't call NAC "Mecca" for nothing. Cool to know the techs like (sorta) working on a FT! ^.^d Kudos to your DW for being so understanding, THAT could have been a bigger problem.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Dave Head on March 25, 2016, 03:58:24 pm
Post by: Dave Head on March 25, 2016, 03:58:24 pm
I'll be interested in the general range of the final bill.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 04:16:01 pm
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 25, 2016, 04:16:01 pm
I'll be interested in the general range of the final bill.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 07:41:52 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 25, 2016, 07:41:52 pm
Quote
Our friend might be the winner of our ( non-existing) contest for most coach bucks spent at one time and having a DW that understands.
The coach bucks are mostly labor. I'm not losing sleep about it. Just don't have much choice. My DW originally had agreed to 5 years in the coach. We usually spend about 5 months traveling each year. We've had it now for 10 and half years.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 10:17:12 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 10:17:12 pm
Thanks for the responses Larry. I don't have Aquahot, so I am not sure of how intense exhaust heat from it might be., but I do know that diesel fuel will melt that blue insulation almost like you took a torch to it. Here is a picture of what I am talking about...
Don
Don
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 10:31:57 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 10:31:57 pm
I did my repairs without removing the basement floor. In retrospect, it may well have been easier to do as Bernd and his crew have done. But since I was doing it incrementally at first, never expecting to have to go as far as I did and so was sucked in gradually. Here is a picture of the new framing I welded in the wet bay compartment. It looks less than shiny in this picture because the steel has been treated with an acid solution prior to coating with POR-15. I wonder how much extra Bernd would charge to add the diagonals and change out the wood inserts for .25" aluminum plate... Say, maybe you could show him this picture and get an estimate! LOL! just kidding... but I sometimes wonder how much $ I saved by doing it myself...
Don
Don
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: krush on March 25, 2016, 10:37:30 pm
Post by: krush on March 25, 2016, 10:37:30 pm
How do they support the coach and keep it from buckling when the bottom frame is removed?
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 10:50:11 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on March 25, 2016, 10:50:11 pm
They don't need to. The welded steel walls (with all their diagonal braces) combined with the welded aluminum roofing structure bolted to the steel sidewalls supports the weight of the coach just fine. But I wouldn't do a 50mph to zero braking test with the coach in that condition!
Don
Don
How do they support the coach and keep it from buckling when the bottom frame is removed?
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: amos.harrison on March 26, 2016, 09:55:52 am
Post by: amos.harrison on March 26, 2016, 09:55:52 am
Why didn't you ask FT to do the work? I watched them replace the frame. The frame was built in the production shop, of course. Two guys spent a day pulling everything out, then after hours a bunch of guys carried the frame in and positioned it. Everything was installed the next day. In this case a leaking battery had gone some time undetected.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 26, 2016, 11:19:00 am
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 26, 2016, 11:19:00 am
Quote
Here is a picture of the new framing I welded in the wet bay compartment.
Quote
How do they support the coach and keep it from buckling when the bottom frame is removed?
Quote
Why didn't you ask FT to do the work?
I'd rather not turn this thread into a discussion on one shop verses another or a list of bad experiences but I did think your question deserved an honest answer.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: wolfe10 on March 26, 2016, 12:50:06 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on March 26, 2016, 12:50:06 pm
Larry,
Here are three of Don's excellent threads:
Before, During, After (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16653.0)
Don starts buttoning her up (split from What did you do to your coach) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17450.0)
Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14530.25)
Here are three of Don's excellent threads:
Before, During, After (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16653.0)
Don starts buttoning her up (split from What did you do to your coach) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17450.0)
Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14530.25)
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 26, 2016, 02:59:56 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 26, 2016, 02:59:56 pm
Thanks Brett. I figured there was more to the story than the one picture Don had posted.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on March 26, 2016, 03:22:44 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on March 26, 2016, 03:22:44 pm
I would have posted more, but I didn't want to hijack your thread! >:D
Don
Don
Thanks Brett. I figured there was more to the story than the one picture Don had posted.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: George and Steph on March 27, 2016, 08:57:15 am
Post by: George and Steph on March 27, 2016, 08:57:15 am
Just a little off topic but not really. We were next to you at Bernds. I was amazed at the extent of work being done. I made a comment to my DW how close your relationship was to be as happy as you obviously were together in the face of adversity. Glad it is working out for you and hope you are on the road soon.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 27, 2016, 10:35:33 am
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 27, 2016, 10:35:33 am
Thank you George
Yes it looks like the coach had been in a fight with a big can opener, but I guess my engineering background helps reduce the anxiety (a little). You should have seen me when I first saw the rust. :headwall:
Quote
I was amazed at the extent of work being done.
Quote
happy as you obviously were
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 27, 2016, 10:46:34 am
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 27, 2016, 10:46:34 am
You should have seen me when I first saw the rust. :headwall:
I did!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: andyr on March 29, 2016, 12:02:00 am
Post by: andyr on March 29, 2016, 12:02:00 am
I've seen this movie myself... My repairs were quite similar to Don's but I needed to do the next bay forward as well to find good solid metal to weld to. I added more steel as well and was pretty liberal with the POR-15. I've been meaning to follow up with some pictures but there always seems to be something more important to do. The moral of this story is that even though the bukheads look ok things might not be what they seem. My issue was, over time leaks in the wet bay caused the frame to rust then rot.
Its a big job no doubt about it but certainly not the worst. I would love to know what it costs to have (real guys) do this job..
Your coach will be better than new when it's done and you'll know that the only weak spot in an otherwise indestructible coach is nothing you need to think about.
Its a big job no doubt about it but certainly not the worst. I would love to know what it costs to have (real guys) do this job..
Your coach will be better than new when it's done and you'll know that the only weak spot in an otherwise indestructible coach is nothing you need to think about.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 29, 2016, 10:06:43 am
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 29, 2016, 10:06:43 am
over time leaks in the wet bay caused the frame to rust then rot.
When we were doing the walk-thru prior to buying our coach, the PO was VERY ADAMANT about watching for water leaks around the wet bay. I took his advise and check the area often! ^.^d
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 29, 2016, 01:45:59 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 29, 2016, 01:45:59 pm
Its a big job no doubt about it but certainly not the worst. I would love to know what it costs to have (real guys) do this job.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame - progress update
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 31, 2016, 06:19:43 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on March 31, 2016, 06:19:43 pm
The new frame has been welded. The frame will be moved over to Xtreme for cleaning and painting and the top and bottom Filon pieces glued on and then back to Bernds for assembly.
Lots of details to get good welds and to add tubing whereever support is needed for anything heavy. The decision was to add framing instead of plates to ensure support.
This picture shows the almost completed frame. It was assembled over the old frame which was positioned bottom up. Since the bottom Filon came off when the frame was removed and the insulation and top Filon were still attached, it was easy to see things this way. The old frame had some issues besides the rust. Some of the welds were just OK and it wasn't as square as they are making the new frame. Of course no one would have known this since there was no problem that made the frame suspect.
You can clearly see how the insulation melted from the AquaHot exhaust. I had extended the exhaust so as not to be under the living room slide and the insulation above the new pipe melted too. A heat shield will be added after everthing is put back together. I suggest everyone with AquaHot either add a heat shield above the exhaust or wrap the pipe (and seal the wrap so as not to hold moister.)
Here's a close up an end corner. The rusted part is some bulkhead sheet metal. The open ends of the old frame were sealed close. The ends of the new one will be too.
Lots of details to get good welds and to add tubing whereever support is needed for anything heavy. The decision was to add framing instead of plates to ensure support.
This picture shows the almost completed frame. It was assembled over the old frame which was positioned bottom up. Since the bottom Filon came off when the frame was removed and the insulation and top Filon were still attached, it was easy to see things this way. The old frame had some issues besides the rust. Some of the welds were just OK and it wasn't as square as they are making the new frame. Of course no one would have known this since there was no problem that made the frame suspect.You can clearly see how the insulation melted from the AquaHot exhaust. I had extended the exhaust so as not to be under the living room slide and the insulation above the new pipe melted too. A heat shield will be added after everthing is put back together. I suggest everyone with AquaHot either add a heat shield above the exhaust or wrap the pipe (and seal the wrap so as not to hold moister.)
Here's a close up an end corner. The rusted part is some bulkhead sheet metal. The open ends of the old frame were sealed close. The ends of the new one will be too.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 31, 2016, 07:40:49 pm
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 31, 2016, 07:40:49 pm
Larry,
It looks like you're getting some good quality work done out there in Coach Buck City.
It looks like you're getting some good quality work done out there in Coach Buck City.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on March 31, 2016, 08:31:52 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on March 31, 2016, 08:31:52 pm
Looking good! The original welds were just on the vertical sides of the tubing. It looks like that is how the new one is being done well. Maybe a bit paranoid (but I had good reason to be!), but I welded all four sides on the utility bay, and three sides forward of that. And as ours had ⅛" 1.5" angle iron on the outside rails, I welded ⅛" 1.25" angle iron nested from stem to stern to create ¼" thick full length rails for the compartment trim. How thick was the tubing on the new one? The original of the mid to late 90's was only 18 gauge (wall thickness less than 1/16", except for the two bulkhead joining pieces which were 11 gauge (⅛" thick walled). It looks like the new frame is 13 gauge or better.
Don
Don
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 01, 2016, 07:29:59 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 01, 2016, 07:29:59 pm
Looking good! The original welds were just on the vertical sides of the tubing. It looks like that is how the new one is being done well. How thick was the tubing on the new one? The original of the mid to late 90's was only 18 gauge (wall thickness less than 1/16", except for the two bulkhead joining pieces which were 11 gauge (⅛" thick walled). It looks like the new frame is 13 gauge or better.
Don
The new frame was welded on all sides. The picture that I sent previously showed only the first side. It's 11 gauge which was the gauge of the end parts of the old frame and I believe the rest as well. Bernd's guys turned the frame over and did a great job finishing all edges, welded end caps to close the ends of the long outermost pieces and added metal to the entire exposed part of the sewer cutout so it will not show any tube but rather finished flat pieces.
This shows the section of the new frame around the sewer drain opening. The bottom area has been grinded smooth. (For those looking very closely, the welds do not extend to the end of the drain opening. They were added after this picture.)This shows an example of the old frame which does not have welds all around the tube nor any rust preventive coating.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: nitehawk on April 01, 2016, 11:58:47 pm
Post by: nitehawk on April 01, 2016, 11:58:47 pm
I noticed two tubes running parallel and touching in one of the above photos. Good place for dirt to settle and then retain moisture. It might be a good idea to fill the valleys between the tubes. Or am I wrong? Might the entire assembly be covered and protected from moisture infiltration?
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 02, 2016, 01:08:01 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 02, 2016, 01:08:01 pm
I noticed two tubes running parallel and touching in one of the above photos. Good place for dirt to settle and then retain moisture. It might be a good idea to fill the valleys between the tubes. Or am I wrong? Might the entire assembly be covered and protected from moisture infiltration?
I should note that the most rusted areas were the ends and particularly the corners. Most of the sides and interior sections had some rust but nothing that was structural. The decision to due the whole frame rather than just the ends was based on not knowing how bad the center was before removing the Filon and wanting to make sure that any metal added was connected to good metal. Making a complete frame was of course much easier than figuring out how to cut and add pieces.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Caflashbob on April 02, 2016, 02:25:13 pm
Post by: Caflashbob on April 02, 2016, 02:25:13 pm
You're right. Everyplace there is a chance to hold water and/or dirt is a problem. We will pay attention to those areas when prepping and painting with Por-15.
I should note that the most rusted areas were the ends and particularly the corners. Most of the sides and interior sections had some rust but nothing that was structural. The decision to due the whole frame rather than just the ends was based on not knowing how bad the center was before removing the Filon and wanting to make sure that any metal added was connected to good metal. Making a complete frame was of course much easier than figuring out how to cut and add pieces.
I would be tempted to find a hot dip galvanizer to do the completed floor frame.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Hammer2100 on April 02, 2016, 07:14:52 pm
Post by: Hammer2100 on April 02, 2016, 07:14:52 pm
I've been reading about this and wondered about the cost of stainless steel tubing. You're going to a lot of trouble anyway, why not.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: its toby on April 02, 2016, 09:26:07 pm
Post by: its toby on April 02, 2016, 09:26:07 pm
Stainless tubing is a fair bit heavier but would be a good choice, I wondered about galvanizing but that would mean each tube needs a hole drilled in each end to allow dipping and to coat the inside of the tube. Sealed or capped tubing actually rots from the inside out because during temperature changes the tubing actually sweats inside.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: wolfe10 on April 02, 2016, 09:35:19 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on April 02, 2016, 09:35:19 pm
The "correct" thing to is keep water OUT of the basement sandwich. Leaks/spills in the wet bay is by far the largest culprit here.
Yes, there are other sources-- check them on each inspection. They include the mountings for joey beds, hose and power cord reels, etc. Basically anything that can crack and allow water into the basement sandwich.
Yes, there are other sources-- check them on each inspection. They include the mountings for joey beds, hose and power cord reels, etc. Basically anything that can crack and allow water into the basement sandwich.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Tim Fiedler on April 02, 2016, 10:29:11 pm
Post by: Tim Fiedler on April 02, 2016, 10:29:11 pm
Fill with oil and seal
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Hammer2100 on April 02, 2016, 10:34:05 pm
Post by: Hammer2100 on April 02, 2016, 10:34:05 pm
Sorry just had to look, stainless is heavier.
Info from engineers hand book US standard 18ga mild steel 2.00 lb per ft
18ga stainless 2.016 lb per ft
18ga galvanized steel 2.156 per ft
11ga mild steel 5.00 lb per ft
11ga stainless 5.04lb per ft
11ga galvanized 5.15 lb per ft
I'm sure that this is counting on coating inside and outside. Just remember that a fast race car has no paint, just ask Smoky.
I hope they realize they are adding weight if the new one is all 11ga thickness .125-.119 18ga .0500-.0478
I wonder if inside are of 16ga it would be more common .0600-.5875
Again sorry had some time on my hands, I've been thinking a lot about our U280 again.
Info from engineers hand book US standard 18ga mild steel 2.00 lb per ft
18ga stainless 2.016 lb per ft
18ga galvanized steel 2.156 per ft
11ga mild steel 5.00 lb per ft
11ga stainless 5.04lb per ft
11ga galvanized 5.15 lb per ft
I'm sure that this is counting on coating inside and outside. Just remember that a fast race car has no paint, just ask Smoky.
I hope they realize they are adding weight if the new one is all 11ga thickness .125-.119 18ga .0500-.0478
I wonder if inside are of 16ga it would be more common .0600-.5875
Again sorry had some time on my hands, I've been thinking a lot about our U280 again.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Don & Tys on April 02, 2016, 11:31:20 pm
Post by: Don & Tys on April 02, 2016, 11:31:20 pm
Here is a picture, for comparison sake of the original tubing that wasn't part of the bulkhead joint, and the stuff I added during my rebuild. I originally thought the tubing on top was 16 gauge, but I saw a parts list for the basement framing on Unicoaches that listed only 18 gauge tubing and 11 gauge tubing. I added approximately 180lbs of steel when I rebuilt my basement framework and used mostly 11 gauge but some 13 gauge tubing, depending on the location as well as some ⅛" angle iron, 3/16" angle iron and ¼" flat stock. The picture shows the relative wall thickness. I cleaned off the burrs from cutting to show the profile.
Don
Don
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: its toby on April 03, 2016, 08:36:00 am
Post by: its toby on April 03, 2016, 08:36:00 am
With tubing that thin if you wanted to save weight and didn't mind the extra labour you could tig weld the whole thing. On a late model chassis they tried it at a reputable builder it saved around 30 pounds and took almost twice as long to build.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: krush on April 03, 2016, 12:44:08 pm
Post by: krush on April 03, 2016, 12:44:08 pm
Instead of tubing, one could use angle iron. Then a good paint can be put on it and it will never rust away. Tubing is horrible for corrosion because once the bad stuff gets inside, it's hard to get it out!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 03, 2016, 12:48:42 pm
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 03, 2016, 12:48:42 pm
Instead of tubing, one could use angle iron. Then a good paint can be put on it and it will never rust away. Tubing is horrible for corrosion because once the bad stuff gets inside, it's hard to get it out!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame - progress update
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 03, 2016, 09:00:27 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 03, 2016, 09:00:27 pm
On Friday, the frame was delivered to Xtreme. To save a day plus, I painted it this weekend. Have you ever painted an old style steam house radiator? All those old enough to remember them and have been given the honor of painting one, please stand up and take a bow. b^.^d
My wife, Nancy, helping out with the prep.
The guys at Bernd's signed their work. The grill is the drain in front of the fuel tank. I got the metal at Nacogdoches A/C and metal fabricators. Kevin there did a great job of cutting the mesh to fit the space. I also got some stainless that he cut to replace the metal at the bulkheads.
A finished area - the short pieces line up to the bolts holding the electric and water reels.
My wife, Nancy, helping out with the prep.A finished area - the short pieces line up to the bolts holding the electric and water reels.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: George and Steph on April 04, 2016, 04:59:58 pm
Post by: George and Steph on April 04, 2016, 04:59:58 pm
Both of those guys do good work. Pride!
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: nitehawk on April 04, 2016, 05:20:25 pm
Post by: nitehawk on April 04, 2016, 05:20:25 pm
And Larry? You sure better take Nancy out for a really nice dinner!! Working like she appears and having such a great big smile deserves a dinner!! ^.^d ^.^d
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 04, 2016, 07:23:28 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 04, 2016, 07:23:28 pm
And Larry? You sure better take Nancy out for a really nice dinner!! Working like she appears and having such a great big smile deserves a dinner!! ^.^d ^.^d
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: nitehawk on April 04, 2016, 08:22:48 pm
Post by: nitehawk on April 04, 2016, 08:22:48 pm
AWRITE!!!! ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame - update
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 06, 2016, 08:43:26 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on April 06, 2016, 08:43:26 pm
The frame is at Xtreme and one side of the Filon has been glued on. The directions say "apply pressure after gluing".
No, they didn't chop down a tree just for this.
No, they didn't chop down a tree just for this.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: craneman on April 28, 2016, 10:54:17 am
Post by: craneman on April 28, 2016, 10:54:17 am
How did this turn out?
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on May 05, 2016, 11:19:09 pm
Post by: Larry Rubin on May 05, 2016, 11:19:09 pm
Sorry for not posting earlier. We are back in the coach now and at Xtreme to have the work finished that originally brought us to NAC. The whole project took about 6 weeks with me helping by cleaning and touch up painting. There are a LOT of connections that require drilling and many, many bolts/screws/clips etc etc.
The 6 weeks wasn't all work time and of course, it could have gone quicker with more people working on it and since the coach was outside we had to wait out several rainy days. (If you have been to Bernd's shop then you know how tight it is and how they do most of their work outside.)
After installing stainless steel end bulkheads, bolting on the frame, and reinstalling everything there were about 5 problems that needed attention. All but 1 have gotten fixed. The problems involved mislabeled connections and some water plumbing leaks that required new fittings. The worse (in terms of mess) problem was with the blank tank valve. When I dumped, the valve opened but didn't close - of course, I didn't know that so this morning when I needed to dump again, the black tank started dumping as soon as I removed the safety cover. I always put a small basin under the drain for misshapes like this so I was able to catch almost all of the "stuff". The last problem involves the Javelina tank monitors. I will post a separate entry about that.
Under the topic of what I would do differently, the only thing might be to use stainless steel instead of the Filon covering the top and bottom of the frame. I know there is a weight issue, but it would have saved some time and might have made assembly easier. Also the gray and black tanks had to be removed after they were reinstalled because the PEX water tubing didn't line up with their connections. The 20 or so connections need to be correctly placed relative to the plumbing coming down into the bays.
My insurance is covering a lot of the work under comprehensive. I don't have a final from them as to how much. As to cause of the problem to begin with, I am still don't have one thing to point to. I'm sure the damage took a long time to get as bad as it was and there must have been many small leaks especially in the four corners.
The 6 weeks wasn't all work time and of course, it could have gone quicker with more people working on it and since the coach was outside we had to wait out several rainy days. (If you have been to Bernd's shop then you know how tight it is and how they do most of their work outside.)
After installing stainless steel end bulkheads, bolting on the frame, and reinstalling everything there were about 5 problems that needed attention. All but 1 have gotten fixed. The problems involved mislabeled connections and some water plumbing leaks that required new fittings. The worse (in terms of mess) problem was with the blank tank valve. When I dumped, the valve opened but didn't close - of course, I didn't know that so this morning when I needed to dump again, the black tank started dumping as soon as I removed the safety cover. I always put a small basin under the drain for misshapes like this so I was able to catch almost all of the "stuff". The last problem involves the Javelina tank monitors. I will post a separate entry about that.
Under the topic of what I would do differently, the only thing might be to use stainless steel instead of the Filon covering the top and bottom of the frame. I know there is a weight issue, but it would have saved some time and might have made assembly easier. Also the gray and black tanks had to be removed after they were reinstalled because the PEX water tubing didn't line up with their connections. The 20 or so connections need to be correctly placed relative to the plumbing coming down into the bays.
My insurance is covering a lot of the work under comprehensive. I don't have a final from them as to how much. As to cause of the problem to begin with, I am still don't have one thing to point to. I'm sure the damage took a long time to get as bad as it was and there must have been many small leaks especially in the four corners.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: John Haygarth on May 06, 2016, 12:11:09 am
Post by: John Haygarth on May 06, 2016, 12:11:09 am
Larry, you mention the 4 corners and that got me thinking about what I have found over a while on our 2000 and those 4 corners.
FT made vents behind the front wheels ( long slits with deflector panels) I guess for venting but I found an awful lot of road mess and water was able to intrude into each front bay. I could not understand why they were always wet and dirty when I bought coach so investigated it and now I have sealed these up and bays are dry and clean. The rear ones in front of tires have a similar setup so they too have been fixed. I did not know why it needed these vents as there are big ones under propane tank. The other place I found water and dirt was from the drop down hatch for dump line. I rebuilt it then put foam seal tape around edge and now have a short piece of alum'n sheeting that I bent as a deflector to direct road trash away from both the front and back of this hatch. I have one also for the propane tank vent hole so this inside of bay areas is now clean and dry. Check yours out and see if you have these long vertical vents.
JohnH
FT made vents behind the front wheels ( long slits with deflector panels) I guess for venting but I found an awful lot of road mess and water was able to intrude into each front bay. I could not understand why they were always wet and dirty when I bought coach so investigated it and now I have sealed these up and bays are dry and clean. The rear ones in front of tires have a similar setup so they too have been fixed. I did not know why it needed these vents as there are big ones under propane tank. The other place I found water and dirt was from the drop down hatch for dump line. I rebuilt it then put foam seal tape around edge and now have a short piece of alum'n sheeting that I bent as a deflector to direct road trash away from both the front and back of this hatch. I have one also for the propane tank vent hole so this inside of bay areas is now clean and dry. Check yours out and see if you have these long vertical vents.
JohnH
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: Larry Rubin on May 06, 2016, 01:58:21 am
Post by: Larry Rubin on May 06, 2016, 01:58:21 am
FT made vents behind the front wheels ( long slits with deflector panels) I guess for venting but I found an awful lot of road mess and water was able to intrude into each front bay.
I also had made simple aluminum covers for the round vents by the propane tank and the open areas below each end of the fuel tank to reduce dirt and water from entering that bay. They are 3 sided leaving the rear open.
I like your idea for the dump hatch. My new frame has extra metal lining the 3 sides of the hatch and I reworked the hatch itself so there is a better fit than the original. I'll add an aluminum deflector. I have always put a folded microfiber cloth in the hatch area as a simple way to catch road dirt and water - but improving the hatch design will help.
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: John Haygarth on May 06, 2016, 01:39:50 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on May 06, 2016, 01:39:50 pm
Those vents are right in front of the air bags on the "bulkhead sheet metal walls as you mention. I have included some older pics of them and the sewer hatch cover I extended and put the foam around,and, the 2 deflectors I mentioned also one for the propane vent. Hatch cover looks messy as I had been working on area when I took it.
JohnH
JohnH
Title: Re: rusted bay floor frame
Post by: wolfe10 on May 06, 2016, 01:44:11 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on May 06, 2016, 01:44:11 pm
For keeping water and dirt out of the propane/fuel bay, build a "U" out of 3/4 to 1" square aluminum tubing. With the "U" closed to the front, open to the back.
Cover with a sheet of aluminum or fiberglass. This will keep road splash out, but allow any propane leak to vent.
Mike may be able to post a picture of it-- assume it is still on our old U240.
Cover with a sheet of aluminum or fiberglass. This will keep road splash out, but allow any propane leak to vent.
Mike may be able to post a picture of it-- assume it is still on our old U240.