Here's my video interview with Darrell Luce, Foretravel's Manager Custom Coach Design.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyb_BE2l4d0
I've also written a very long and detailed accounting of my visit to the Foretravel factory. It's most likely too long to post here. So, if you click the link to read my long winded story, please come back to this thread to share your comments.
Gadget Guru 2017 Foretravel IH-45 Video Review & Andy's Foretravel Factory... (http://www.gadgetguru.com/2017-foretravel-ih-45-review/)
Wow!, A whole lotta innovation,
Wonder what they could dream up for a 36' non slide?
(anything over 36' won't get me into the parks and fishing areas I like to visit & I do not want or need slides )
Totally agreed on 36' non-slide that is fully KISS.
Watch the trend! Just like American cars and motorcycles a few decades ago, they kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and more expensive and more expensive. (you get the idea)
Then along came the Honda car & motorcycles (remember: "you meet the nicest people on a Honda"?) Darn near destroyed the American auto industry.
I wonder what is going to be my--and other Foretravel owners--option when the smaller, simpler, less gadgetry, less expensive Foretravels have all disappeared. Or just plain worn out.
Will we have to settle for some other brand? Foretravel as much as admits they are only going to build for a niche up there with Prevost & Newall. Sure wouldn't want to buy one of those top three to take the g-kids to the beach or woods!!
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
They have the plans and the know-how. Build a 34 u270 again and a 34/36 u320 with the traditional classic never-get-old interior with the option for *gasp* no slides!
In 2001 my 36' U320 w/slide was 459,000.00 or inflated into todays money around 590,000.00.
Foretravels were never inexpensive.
To build same coach today you would have to add the expenses of newer technologies and emission standards.
My 2001 as a 2017 model would have to cost over $600,000.00, do you think they would sell even one.
Steve
Our coach has eight slides! They're called windows, and we are quite happy with them being the only slides.
Different people, different needs.
Eight slides, I love it.
Steve
Just my humble opinion, and I'm certainly not an RV sales expert:
Would people even buy one? I think so. Someone paid $285,000 (maybe $450,000 today?) for mine in 1996, and it was their 2nd Foretravel (they traded a 1993). There were plenty of coaches available WITH slide(s) at that time, for less money. They chose Foretravel.
Also, consider that other companies offer coaches with no slides: i.e., Born Free, Lazy Daze. Yes, they are expensive (but a much lower price point than a Foretravel) - much more expensive than lesser-quality Class Cs that do have slides. But they sell. The fiberglass shell travel trailer manufacturers sell their non-slide units all day long (i.e. Casita) - in fact, I think it still takes 2-4 months to get one from the factory. Again, for much less money than our Foretravels, I understand. And let's not forget Airstream as well,
My point is: I think there a market for super-high quality items, including motorcoaches. And I think, if someone wanted a non-slide Foretravel, they would probably build one for you. Should they fill the lot with a bunch of non-slide U-270s? Probably not. But making them available for build and promoting them might be a good strategy. I don't know their business, and I certainly am not risking millions on my brilliant strategy as they are. Just some thoughts.
Chris
A U320 40' 2 slides with updated electronics and other technology would probably be more like $700K. My 36' 2001 U320 single slide was just under 500K. $650 today after inflation. If they could build them and sell them for $650K they would sell them as fast as they could build them. They did in 2001. But upper middle market today wants four slides and glitz. It is too bad they can't make Nimbus and Phenix models at the same time they are making the very high end stuff. It is what it is. We are very pleased to have what we have.
At the GrandVention FT said they could build a Nimbus or Phenix if that is what you wanted but taking up a production slot would make it almost as expensive as the coach it displaced. The problem is capacity. In 2001 I think they built way over 100 coaches.
This may be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway: why is their capacity so much lower now than in 2000? Same factory, right? Just fewer employees maybe?
Remember the "great depression" we had a few years ago? Country Coach went under, as did Alpenelite, Beaver and who knows how many other trailer & coach companies bit the dust. My Prevost friend up at Marathon told me they barely made payroll during those times. FT survived, as did Newell and Airstream, by downsizing, big time. People like us are a niche market, and in bad economic times, we'll not bring a briefcase of coach bucks to the table.
"FT survived, as did Newell and Airstream, by downsizing, big time. " Airstream has now added additional capacity (beyond what they had before the depression), and they still can't build then fast enough. Many of their coaches are $100-150,000 and not one has a slide.
Yup, AS tried a slide; failure mondo. AS (owned by THOR) cheapened the product by building plastic coaches very few bought. I've talked with old-time AS owners that bought fresh and, after problem after problems, wished they'd restored the eighties/nineties trailers. Sad.
Haha Mike, you mean the one that ended in 2009, right? Yes, I remember it and understand your point. I just always read that the RV industry is going bonkers right now, and as David said, adding capacity. Maybe Foretravel is just more conservative in their approach.
I just remember the first rule of business, that I learned from the former owner of our company: you can't sell 'em, if you don't have 'em.
I just called my buddy at Marathon (Prevost) to see how things have gone for high-liner sales. He said, "We still don't build our coaches and advertise them, anymore. We deal with up-grades ,pre-owned on consig + service, and, these days, anyone who wants one of our coaches will have us build it to their specs." I would think FT has the same business model, except I can't get a FT tee-shirt and my friend is sending me a Marathon tee. Hmm, marketing?
I certainly understand that for a PRAY-vo (as one owner corrected my pronunciation one time :-)). Those are - what - $1.5m new, minimum? I guess my point was: if someone can buy a Foretravel U-270, brand new, for around $500k, I think they'd sell them. Even if you had to order it and wait for delivery. As I understand things, you can't do that right now without paying much more.
And BTW - you have some good contacts!
Chris
They are staffed to demand, not capacity. Cost to hand build limited quantities of their custom chassis pretty much demands IH price points to make any money on a FT chassis coach. The Realm is on a Spartan for that reason. Without a dealer network, volume difficult (not impossible) to acheive. SO FT has sort of retreated to the high margin, high price point boutique semi custom build portion of the market. Likely their is not risk appetite to move down market or try to get a dealer network built.
I think that isn't a fair comparison. First off, the numbers quoted for past prices are almost always MSRP.
Second, what is the Realm selling for? It's pretty high-tech and lots of fancy stuff on it. Aren't they in the 600-700 range?
Labor rates are up, but other manufacturing efficiency exist. CNC and robots aren't that expensive for fabrication these days.
The emissions argument, I feel, is not valid. Maybe in 2010 when the standards were new. The increase due to emissions equipment is marginal in the big picture.
Maybe a simpler u270 on the spartan chassis? I still don't think a u270 chassis is that much more to make...it's really quite simple in construction.
Another option that could be profitable is high quality 5th wheels. Since the drivetrain issues aren't there, the quality and profit from the production side could be realized at a lower price point. Airstream is selling a ton.
I don't run FOT but I visited once. My experience was not unlike the Gadget Guru's
When we were at FOT in March there was a couple trading in their custom built IH-45 for a custom built Phenix. They didn't like the extra height of the IH-45. I didn't get a tour of the interior but Dori did. She said that it was the most beautiful coach she had ever seen. The couple did have some experience with motorhomes. It was their 9th Foretravel.
see ya
ken
I know them and they have a great coach. I think I could design a pretty good one now after all these years of running too but I am only on number three.
That Phenix was reported more expensive than the IH45 they traded in, which was used in the October Ladies Driving Class.
As for a coach similar to what I have now, recall we pretty much covered this in discussions at Grandvention and then followup with Luce and then I talked to Tyle. The problem was......it would cost about as much as the Realm
I asked for reduce costs by offer a few number of options, maybe no slide or one, no AH, use the outsourced chassis, etc. The result was price probably still too high, does not fit their production line as now configured, etc etc but the cost was believed to be prohibitive, as some of you have said in this thread.
Even so, they said that IF we could get together five orders for such coaches, they would see about making them, And at last report they have not had even two or three explore making them. Was it Miz Dani back in those discussions that said, if they do not make ours new again....where will the next round of buyers in ten years get what we got one day, those that want coaches as most of us bought used? it seems unlikely our 2001 will be that supply in ten years. Oh, wait a minute....maybe it will, those 1993's are still dang popular, maybe my 01 will be later for that next generation of buyers.
Still, wish I had a new 01!
mike
"Another option that could be profitable is high quality 5th wheels." Foretravel does (or did) build trailers with living space for people in front and horses in back. One came in for service while we were there last month. There are a few custom builders for 5'ers, but if you want a high-end production coach you are looking at either DRV or New Horizons. Even then, NH thinks of themselves as a custom builder, although they have some stock plans to show you.
DRV is now owned by Thor and their frames are made by Lippert. Many people think that Thor cheapens the product, and lots of people don't like Lippert. I wonder what would happen if Foretravel took one of their horse/people trailers and gave the full length to people. Just thinking aloud here, as I'm no engineer or businessman.