Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 21, 2016, 08:50:25 pm
Title: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 21, 2016, 08:50:25 pm
You know how you go thru life making decisions as you go . Some easy , some not so easy . After a few major system failures with this Phenix and being treated the way I was by the president of Foretravel , it is the last straw . I phoned him , left a message to make one final to make things right . No call back . While in his office in January , one on one , trying to iron out these issues his reply was always , 'I'll look into that " I didn't buy this coach thinking it would be covered by warranty for ever , but I did have this idea that it was properly built . My first kick in the teeth was last year headed to the big ''Q ' ' event the PTO failed that turns the fan to cool the engine . That device was installed dry ( no lube or supply ) just metal against dry metal and it was known that it is going to fail . No notification or warning from Foretravel of any Kind . On I-10 in Arizona , it quit and I was stranded on the side of a busy interstate . I paid , boy did I pay . next biggie , the drivers side front slide started leaking rain water badly . So , I paid again , lived in a motel for 11 days . Cause of problem , a raw strip of super thin wood was sticking up . No fiberglass on the end , no paint on the end . How can a coach that listed new for $1,061,740.00 and not be properly made in the first place . And after the fact the president seeing all this mess and sticking me with his shortcomings which is the results of manufacture . ?? I have been loyal to the core , this is my 4th Foretravel , have never owned any other coach . I feel betrayed by a friend . I hurt all over . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: fkjohns6083 on April 21, 2016, 09:24:56 pm
Hey Brad ---- I think that Foretravel is like every other business in that people want quality at cheapy prices and the two are not compatible in most cases. Businesses make the cuts to get prices down and the consumer is stuck with what-ever. That is one reason that I like my old rig because it was built with high quality standards and yet was affordable to folks that had that extra for a motor home. Too many things on the newer rigs are just plain over engineered which drives up the cost and the cost of repairs at a more frequent interval. It is a death spiral that is difficult to exit from. I wouldn't give up RVing, but I would probably opt for a more reliable older machine. Hope all works out well for you ---- Have a great day ---- Fritz
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 21, 2016, 10:20:30 pm
The best coach I ever owned was the 38 ft. 320 . No problems , always reliable and dependable . Drove it to Alaska , no issues . My next coach was a 2006 , Phenix and that is where the problems began . It leaked rain in the rear end , soaking our clothing in the closet . That problem was ( never solved ) and in the FOT shop for that very reason , more than once . . That 320 was getting on toward the end of the true Foretravel .Shortly after that things sure did change and the results speak for them selves . The disappointment of all this is , I was nearing the decision of ordering a new IH . That is over with now . You mention cutting costs etc. Ok , I understand that real good , that is not my main issue . It being why didn't Foretravel notify all owners with that PTO set up that failure was eminent ? There are still coaches out there that are going to fail . Where was the honesty , where was the caring attitude to their customers ? Should have been some sort of recall or notification of some sort . After all; people who buy these coaches are all senior types for the most part . If Foretravel doesn't care about their customers welfare and safety -----they are going to run out of ----customers ---- it being a matter of time . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bogeygolfer on April 21, 2016, 10:44:09 pm
Boy, that's painful and disappointing to hear. Sorry you've had such problems. Out of curiosity, what coach would you consider at this time?
Chris
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 21, 2016, 11:11:28 pm
Have been on the phone with Marathon " Prevost " had a good visit with them and like what I saw . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: jcus on April 21, 2016, 11:19:27 pm
Have been on the phone with Marathon " Prevost " had a good visit with them and like what I saw . Brad Metzger
Try Newell, quality coach. They build to your exact specs. If you buy a used coach from them, they give you a 2 year, 24000 mile warranty. They have been in business since 1967. They are very popular with nascar drivers.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tim Fiedler on April 21, 2016, 11:32:08 pm
Brad, I know three folks with Prevost conversions. Maintenance after every trip. One had a marathon conversion. Had 17 car dealerships. Resorted to building a shop and hiring a full time mechanic (ex marathon). Said he never took a trip that something didn't break and cause problems. Not saying buy an IH, but bus conversions are all "one offs" and that effects reliability. Never a chance to get the bugs worked out during long production runs. As an aside, I know FT converted four 35 or 36 foot buses in the mid eighties. Always wondered why they only did those four. Are you thinking stainless or fiberglass Previst?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Old Knucklehead on April 21, 2016, 11:38:44 pm
Brad, We were saddened to see the story unfold that way. I feel their response will have some negative implications with future shoppers. I re-read "From Good to Great" recently to offset a few annoying experiences. What you described in your dealings seems opposed to every good business plan. Sorry that you took the hit. Best wishes, Paul
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 21, 2016, 11:58:31 pm
When Ruth and I were in Nac in Nov there were 2 couples that had IH's in for leaking rain.There was a Realm in too for the same reason but did not meet that party. Boy they were really ticked off and had to leave the coach's there and drove home very upset. Seems some bad roof joints did not have proper sealing at the rear end. Not good at all. I watched the test for a minute and there were bubbles in many places at joints. What is going on there as this news is getting to sound like manufacturers of SOB we always joke about? JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Carol Savournin on April 22, 2016, 12:17:58 am
I am devastated to hear this ..... What a HUGE mistake on the part of Foretravel.
On the other hand ... I hear that your brother has a fairly nice coach for sale!!
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Caflashbob on April 22, 2016, 12:26:27 am
Brad, I know three folks with Prevost conversions. Maintenance after every trip. One had a marathon conversion. Had 17 car dealerships. Resorted to building a shop and hiring a full time mechanic (ex marathon). Said he never took a trip that something didn't break and cause problems. Not saying buy an IH, but bus conversions are all "one offs" and that effects reliability. Never a chance to get the bugs worked out during long production runs. As an aside, I know FT converted four 35 or 36 foot buses in the mid eighties. Always wondered why they only did those four. Are you thinking stainless or fiberglass Previst?
Foretravel made six 35' le mirages Late 70's Prevost went to 40' only and Foretravel did not want to build 40's
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: D.J. Osborn on April 22, 2016, 07:31:31 am
After a few major system failures with this Phenix and being treated the way I was by the president of Foretravel , it is the last straw . I phoned him , left a message to make one final to make things right . No call back . While in his office in January , one on one , trying to iron out these issues his reply was always , 'I'll look into that " I didn't buy this coach thinking it would be covered by warranty for ever , but I did have this idea that it was properly built .
I have been loyal to the core , this is my 4th Foretravel , have never owned any other coach . I feel betrayed by a friend . I hurt all over .
It is very sad to see that Foretravel has slipped to this level. I truly hope that someone in their upper management takes the time to read and really listen to reports such as this and will correct the situation.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 22, 2016, 07:34:03 am
Forgot to mention , I also did a Newell plant tour . Very impressed . I see some very different think about how to treat customers after the sale . Wish it could have been contagious and spread south . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: nitehawk on April 22, 2016, 08:02:44 am
It is unfortunate that one or two uncaring individuals in a company can have a huge impact on the bottom line (profit), reputation, and future of a company. Their ego and drive to be "THE TOP DOG" can cost a company to lose customers and employees. I have seen it, experienced it, and been a casualty also. It seems that modern accounting methods drive immediate decision making with little thought for long term consequences. The bean counters now control industry. Without caring, responsive management in a company the customer can only vote with their wallet/checkbook. It is the only voice these individuals can hear. Unfortunately they usually don't heed the voices asking for the proper changes until it is too late. :( :(
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: fouroureye on April 22, 2016, 08:22:14 am
Sad... I realize the factory will be higher on remodels... but $$$ is there only focus. I can't imagine why the issues listed there wasn't a call-back. Do they think ... oh well the can pay for it? This is why all the other services do well in the nac area
When we went to nac to get an estimate for flooring, 3 drawer sets, reapolstry and a booth... I was stunned ... 26-28 CB + tax MOT.. 16CB gave them the same discription in writing. FT TOOK 15 min to look, MOT took 45 had many questions.. that soured me
I did the 88 for 6k.. oh my :o . My recent post about cabinets.. cost .8cb.. their estimate...2400
Flooring was a little over 45 per sq ft
Brad, you have always taken the high road... supported FT when others had isues with service.. guided them.. it speaks volumes your heartfelt story.. kicked in the teeth and betrayal of your loyalty...
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 22, 2016, 08:28:29 am
Brad,
You and i have talked about this before and I think I got to the frustration level with Foretravel quality before you. So I too have been disappointing with my 07 Phenix. I have worked on it more than I did my Monaco pusher.
But I'm going a different route. I think I'll go with a high end 5th wheel. There are just too many items and gadgets on these fancy coaches to keep up with.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 22, 2016, 08:35:51 am
Oh...and I had the same problem with the rear cap leaking. So apparently they haven't figured out how to design that rear spoiler since 2007 to keep it from leaking. That's where my water intrusion was from. The bolts that hold that spoiler on, allowed water in. FOT had to replace a big area of wall paneling in my rear closet.
Seems all coaches at this level should do a test for leaks with a pressured test system.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on April 22, 2016, 08:36:20 am
The "dry PTO" problem was shared by other manufacturers, including Country Coach.
From a slide in my Diesel RV Maintenance Presentation:
PTO Hydraulic Pump mounted on Allison 4000MH Transmission
Radiator PTO Pump mounted on Allison 4000MH Transmission (http://forum.dieselrvclub.org/index.php/topic,7156.msg17370/topicseen.html#new)
Very common problem on Country Coaches and others with Allison Power Take Off driven hydraulic pumps. I saved my PTO before it failed -- had the wet kit installed. ~$400 out the door a few years ago. John Davis in Oregon is a good source for the kit (JOHN DAVIS RV SERVICES INC. (http://www.jdrv1.com/))
Attached is an article you can read/share. I was author/editor with help from others. All our names are in the article. I've attached both PDF and Word versions. The PDF has pictures.
Lee (leozbrowski@gmail.com) 2007 Country Coach Intrigue 12153 CAT C-13
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: rcantrell51 on April 22, 2016, 08:40:02 am
Brad, Contact Newell Coach and have a thorough discussion with them about your wants/needs before you make the leap to Marathon. Newell has some advantages when you compare it to Marathon. Give me a call and we can discuss.
Regards, Reese
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 22, 2016, 09:04:10 am
Now lets not be hasty here, my self interests are involved in your decision too. I'm counting on riding with you soon, have new zero hour Can Am Maverick sitting in the cargo trailer and gotta learn the ropes! Seriously, though, I can't imagine the level of stupidity that would cause a company to ignore a customer like Brad M. The CEO should do the honorable thing and offer a finger (not upraised, but Yazuka style), put this bus in the shop and not let it leave until its right. Gratis. Then figure out just who screwed up to cause the coach problem and adjust manufacturing appropriately. Allison and poor communication is to blame for the pto.
Is there anything that could be done that would make this right and keep you in brand?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 22, 2016, 09:13:05 am
Brad, I am real sorry about your experience at Foretravel. Very tough to hear. We all know what a loyal customer you have been with them.
FOT should have at least shared in some of the repair costs you've incurred. At a minimum, the recall should have been initiated or at least a "campaign" to inspect the PTO each time an owner brought in their coach for service. Lack of action has resulted in very negative "press" here at Foreforums. Again, I am disappointed.
That being said, the experience with these high end coaches will be the same regardless of it being a bus conversion , Newell or the like. Tread carefully on your next move. I would continue to pursue a more favorable resolution to your issues with FOT.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: joeszeidel on April 22, 2016, 09:22:09 am
Brad, everyone seems to have captured the feeling of being mistreated by a company where you have been a good customer. A small volume builder like Foretravel better realize that an unhappy customer on a forum like this can hurt a reputation that took years to build. Whats happened to you seems shocking to a lot of us. I hope that you and Foretravel can some how resolve these issues. Foretravel I hope your listening.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Bill Willett on April 22, 2016, 09:36:45 am
My take on the problems at FT are simple, C M Fore is no longer with us.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: jcus on April 22, 2016, 09:38:36 am
Brad, believe all the newer prevost conversions have only the Volvo c13 500 hp engine. The 45 ft conversions are pretty heavy by themselves. I have seen your truck and 4x4, and you will need at least a ISX 650. Have checked out newells pretty good, and have found they have had problems over the years, but when they realize it, the customer is the first to be informed, and they do the repair at their factory.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 22, 2016, 10:51:00 am
Brad, I would feel the same way if my Phenix gave me all the grief yours is giving you. I can not believe FT is not correcting all your issues at their expense. That really makes me mad! I always have glowing comments about FT but will now reconsider. What year do you have?
I guess I was lucky to get one that does not have problems.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 22, 2016, 11:16:51 am
Hmm, my two cents: I founded and ran a high-end company that was prolly bigger than FT. I decided early on that my customer base was the best form of advertising and let it be known: " if any of our product fails due to manufacturing or labor, we will repair or replace it, at no charge, for the life of the system (20-30 years)." My competitors thought I was nuts, but by using the finest parts and most skilled labor, I very seldom had a call-back, and when I did "I'll see you this afternoon and we'll square this away". FT is not the first company to adapt a cavalier attitude towards the end user, but slowly their customer base will erode, and they'll be another "has-been". :'(
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: ltg on April 22, 2016, 11:40:35 am
This may be an apples to oranges comparison. But, Newell Coach has no new coaches for sale. All sold. However, they may not build spec coaches. Foretravel has eight new coaches for sale, two of which are 2015 models. Newells cost twice as much as a Foretravel. So, cost is not the reason.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 22, 2016, 12:16:00 pm
Well, not to beat a dead horse, but one thought just came to me : We had a large shipment of parts delivered that turned out to be faulty (after installation). I called the factory, explained the problem, they sent a REP to look at the problem, he agreed it was on their nickel, replaced the faulty parts AND told me to keep track of my labor and they would comp that , as well. Guess what, who knows how many hundreds of thousands worth of business I did with them afterwards, where they could have blown me off and I'd have found another supplier. ^.^d
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: lgshoup on April 22, 2016, 12:25:27 pm
OK. So things aren't or didn't go the way they should have or the way you would have liked. It happens! a continual complaint from members who seem to be equally dissatisfied isn't going to change what's already happened. It simply isn't!!! If people are fed up and feel they need to move on then they need to do so. I'm sorry, it just isn't the place to vent after the first complaint. I can only assume that there's going to be a lot of Foretravels up for sale as everyone moves on to something else. Good for us! There, I'm done.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Dave Head on April 22, 2016, 01:21:42 pm
Forgot to mention , I also did a Newell plant tour . Very impressed . I see some very different think about how to treat customers after the sale . Wish it could have been contagious and spread south . Brad Metzger
5-6 years ago the Newell CEO was routinely on IRV2 answering questions and dispelling rumours. I asked him why they didn't consider a trans retarder. he stated, "Mainly, nobody asked"... Newells have their own common issues with the air pocket doors, for example. I don't think they do the bay AC units anymore (which I thought would be awesome for a SERIOUS solar install). T'were me, I would be spec'ing an ultralight version with wood/vinyl flooring, composite counters, etc. The gaudiness of the older Newells overwhelms me in the same fashion as some of the Prevost conversions.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: esaulten on April 22, 2016, 01:38:45 pm
I have a 2008 Phenix and have had the PTO problem, I also have had 4 previous Foretravel's. The reality is my coach is going on ten years old. Brad's coach is two years newer. However they don't come with a lifetime warranty. Yes I was upset seeing Brads first post and then having to remove my old PTO and Pump assembly. Replaced just in time. However I find that telling the world how bad Foretravel and their management is on this web site is probably not going to help in the good relationship areas. First was Brad's coach new when he bought it? If so how long does he expect the warranty and good will to last? My expectations were that at 5 years all bets were off on Foretravel helping on things that just happen even if they were production related. If it didn't happen in 60 months then its my dime. Do I relate to Brad's misery over the issues he's had "You Bet". I just hope that he will get things straightened out and not use the forum as a weapon to get that done. I have been a member since 04 and still think the forum is great, and as I said I have great empathy for Brad and his feelings. I just wish he would take them off line. As a side point I don't know Brad but read his off road adventures all the time, I am sure he is a great guy. I have no personal issues with him these are just my opinions.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 22, 2016, 02:49:59 pm
To answer that one is easy.- When the builder/designer of a very expensive piece of machinery that has been maintained at their service facility does NOT tell you of possible expensive problems and a fix, as in a recall which sounds in part to be an Allison issue too, plus any other issues Brad has had, then I guess any one of us would feel very let down and go the next step to vent their frustration. This is normal and expected I, like many others have been very lucky to have got to know Brad, and regard him now as a good and honest friend who will do everything in his power to help you and share his love for the great outdoors on his toys. We have stayed at their home and both he and Phyliss are really nice people and have no airs about them in whatever they do. You take them as you see them!! I find some of the comments have been written without knowing this man and they do not understand how this must be really hurting him, because he really believed in FT! Brad was a very successful business man and the handling of his issues have been totally opposite to the way he handled his business-customer first. Brad has worked hard and is in a position to be able to "suck this cost up" but his principles have been damaged by FT's lack of concern I believe. Brad, I do not for one second blame you for going this route. On a side note I do know that this PTO problem was also a C Coach issue as my friend in San Carlos had a similar problem on his Magna a few years ago. JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Andy 2 on April 22, 2016, 02:57:19 pm
X 1
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bogeygolfer on April 22, 2016, 03:11:22 pm
Personally, I always thought of this Forum as a place to openly discuss coach-related issues - the good, bad and the ugly. I don't have near the cash invested in our coach as some of you do, but believe we all benefit from knowing what's happening with these newer coaches because I hope to own one in the future. And I appreciate those who won't sugar coat issues, and also I empathize with someone being so frustrated and expressing same. Let's just hope somehow it can be resolved to Brad's satisfaction.
Chris
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: propman on April 22, 2016, 03:53:43 pm
This is not about Brad ... let's put him a side for one sec. If anything he is making himself very vulnerable by sharing his experience for good of everyone here, that includes FT folks. " I always thought of this Forum as a place to openly discuss coach-related issues - the good, bad and the ugly. " I am very grateful for this forum and all its members. My loyalty is probably to this group of people way before to FT brand. If it wasn't for stories like this good and bad shared here by all you good folks, I would not be owning a FT, yet along a huge diesel pusher. Thank you!
I hope all will turn out what is best for Brad. As far as FT goes, they will go on with or without few of us, for better or worse, I am sure they know that too.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: littledubz on April 22, 2016, 04:21:31 pm
Was his coach manufactured around the time when Foretravel was struggling financially? It would make a lot of sense if it were that quality may have suffered at that time, and the company who formerly held quality as the highest priority, struggled to stay in business. It's hard to make a great product if you're not sure that you're going to continue to operate. We've seen it before in other industries.
Are there a few years of marginal coaches that are working their way through that should be avoided. Seems like those early years of the nimbus and IH and Phoenix. I always wondered of those "great recession" years should be avoided.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 22, 2016, 05:03:09 pm
Was his coach manufactured around the time when Foretravel was struggling financially? I always wondered of those "great recession" years should be avoided.
I would look at Country Coach, Beaver, Alpenlite, and, especially, Airstream ; They all made quality coaches and had a great rep. When either bad management or bean counters cheapened the product, they went under, and were absorbed by Thor and others, who bought the companies for nickels on the dollar, and throwing whole small towns out of work. To this day, I meet owners of new Airstreams that wish they'd restored their coaches, rather than buying a fresh one. When Beatrice Foods, bought AS, Harley Davidson, AMF in the seventies, they all failed with crappy, cost-reducing ideas. I do NOT suggest anyone who's looking for a Airstream to even think of a coach made in the seventies! In the eighties, AS made pretty good coaches, but from then on, junk. Is FT listening?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Keith and Joyce on April 22, 2016, 05:16:35 pm
I mentioned this in another post but I think it bears repeating. Selling high end products in limited quantities to people who can afford them is not normal retailing. In my business I rarely get asked about price, it's all about service. Getting a bad reputation in after sales service is the quickest way to go out of business that I know of. It's a pity that the company is willing to erode it's amazing reputation for quality just to keep the bean counters happy.
Wake up Foretravel management. Get someone in there at the top who knows how to look after the Foretravel customer and set an example to those in the chain of command that this cannot continue.
Keith
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tim Fiedler on April 22, 2016, 05:25:17 pm
Brad, you are the second owner, correct? Did they offer any warranty or assistance on the PTO or Leaks? Or has all this been on your nickel?
Please continue hang out here with us whatever the next coach, I love your adventures and stories!
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 22, 2016, 05:29:02 pm
Propman et all, I agree this is not about Brad, per se, what I alluded too was his sense of Business acume and the way he dealt with clients in his business, and, then relating it to what he has experienced with FT. Totally opposite ends of the spectrum I think. Lets face it (hard as it is) over the last few years we have all read Forum Members comments on how they felt things had not been handled well when issues came up with their Coach's and dealing with the "factory" A quick search will bring up many "threads" on this subject so this is not a new one, that is why to me it is sad. There also seems to be the same one or two owners that have had nothing but good to say about their dealings with FT thru many purchases with them. So, my question to them is "what do you say/do to get your voice listened to and followed? I wonder how many millions of dollars over the years one has to spend to get to this position? Most cannot ( and would not want to) throw away the losses trading in etc to achieve a " warm welcome " at FT. This is just my humble opinion, and as I do not know much take this with a grain of salt I guess. End of my comments on this issue. JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 22, 2016, 05:34:17 pm
In my business I rarely get asked about price, it's all about service. Wake up Foretravel management.
Bingo! I once went to a "cold call" where the would-be client (who had heard of my reputation of "expensive"),was having a wedding and wanted his site to be primo. I told him we were booked, and I could not possibly get the (not even designed) project done by his time frame. He looked at me and said, "did I ask for a price?" We started the next day. And the "cold call" turned into a life-long relationship and numerous referrals.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 22, 2016, 05:40:45 pm
Leaks are unacceptable and roof leaks more so. The lack of notice on the PTO is what bothers me and the fix is not what I would do. It needs an oil bath. I have owned three Foretravels and two Born free coaches. I just sold my 24 foot and since 06 had exact,y two issues to deal with. Simpler coaches just work. It is why whI n I wanted to buy a new FT in 07 I asked for a two slide Nimbus. I was told if I delete a slide it is custom and cost more. I asked for a IFS and a Phenix step. I was told buy a Phenix so I bought a used coach and remodeled it. I am sad to hear this and I am sure it will ruffle feathers.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 22, 2016, 05:42:18 pm
Bingo! I once went to a "cold call" where the would-be client (who had heard of my reputation of "expensive"was having a wedding and wanted his site to be primo. I told him we were booked, and I could not possibly get the (not even designed) project done by his time frame. He looked at me and said, "did I ask for a price?" We started the next day. And the "cold call" turned into a life-long relationship and numerous referrals.
In my business it is never the price either but the service as well.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 22, 2016, 05:46:59 pm
This just might answer all questions;
Foretravel sues former owners - The Daily Sentinel: Local News (http://dailysentinel.com/news/local/article_518210cd-6a18-52e9-adb9-3fdd376b5d57.html)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 22, 2016, 05:56:31 pm
In my business it is never the price either but the service as well.
My wife will back me up: Over the years, sitting down to dinner, glass of spirits in hand, phone call comes in, problems. Do I say "we'll put you on the list" or put my fork and glass down and say, "I'll see you in a few minutes"? Yup, every time, even if I could do nothing about it until I could get the crew in tomorrow, they were overjoyed that "Mr Expensive" showed up; that's the whole deal.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: TulsaTrent on April 22, 2016, 06:16:39 pm
As far as FT goes, they will go on with or without few of us, for better or worse, I am sure they know that too.
Your assertion that Foretravel will be able to go on is not consistent with the facts as I observe them.
Trent
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: George and Steph on April 22, 2016, 07:08:50 pm
As one of the new guys on the block, I would hope the good, bad and ugly are welcome. We all have the critical thinking skills to sort out the constant complainer from the legitimate complaint and most things in between. To not discuss the downside is to leave those who may need to know in the dark, this is especially true with safety related issues.
We spent a week or so in the FT campground in March. I was surprised at what I saw during our stay. The delamination problems, rust issues, new owners who had spent two weeks waiting for fixes on delivery of their brand new unit, and side conversations explaining which years were good and which to avoid. The good was the friendships gained that make FT ownership so much fun.
Unfortunately I saw a lot of this during my years of consulting. For family business, which this is no longer, we used to say the third generation turns out the lights. The fire in the belly and beauty, pride, of ownership is lost. The same thing is starting to happen at Northwood as the founder has transitioned.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: saddlesore on April 23, 2016, 12:43:50 am
Foretravel sues former owners - The Daily Sentinel: Local News (http://dailysentinel.com/news/local/article_518210cd-6a18-52e9-adb9-3fdd376b5d57.html)
Wife & I are looking to buy our 1st FT in the next month or three...... But this revelation may limit the year models we choose from...or go look at other mfgs offerings... sad
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: George and Steph on April 23, 2016, 07:07:23 am
Saddlesore we went through that process last year. We looked at Country Coach, Beaver, Monaco etc. We found that virtually all of the builders had either gone bankrupt, or been acquired by companies that later went bankrupt. We did a "what now" spreadsheet adding to the list the most expensive failures of that brands construction and separate area for those things needing to be done on coaches of their age. For example, we learned about bulkheads on FT, paint and slide issues on Country Coach etc.
In the end, we elected to go with the 36 270 97 FT. It was inspected by Brett. We,so far, are within budget but have put slightly more into it than we paid for it. But with the exception of the steering box it was preventative or cosmetic work. A big plus has been the ability to take the unit to the factory for coach work. We found techs who have 20-30 years with the company and were well versed on the years. They did mods etc for us that were excellent. What I learned from them is there really are prime years, as you note, for these coaches.
There is also a cottage industry that has grown up in Nac around these coaches making service much easier to locate and a service force available. Much more difficult with the other brands. A word of caution on these shops, make sure the small shops stay in their own lane. If they specialize use that specialty, for example there is an upholsterer that does wonderful upholstery but wants to do more and that work is at the level of a careless weekend hobby.
We are now at 4 months and about 5,500 miles. It has been a steep learning curve but with the factory still operating a maintenance facility and the surrounding vendors we would make the same decision. It is for me the 57 Chevy of coaches. Don't be discouraged be informed. Best wishes with your purchase.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Karl Brenneman on April 23, 2016, 07:52:32 am
Dear Brad,
Sorry to hear about you problem. I had the same thing happened to me last year with Foretravel service. I am still waiting for a courtesy call from L.R. After the repair was done I left FT and drove to Washington state. Washing my FT I found in the same place that I had repaired by FT originally, the crack was back again. Called FT they said bring it back. So I did at my own expense. ( fuel and lodging)
To those of you do not like to here about the poor service FT I am sorry but this forum is to express our views good or bad.
Approximately one year ago I made an appointment at the local service center for May 4, 2015 with a service advisor (We'll call him LL). The reason for the appointment was the coach (A 2004 U320) had delamination caused by cracking in the cape, which in my opinion is a very poor design. Many coaches by this manufacturer have this cap problem. The quote to complete the work, including repainting the repair, was a week and a half.
When I arrived at repair shop on May 4, I was provided a quote that the fiberglass work would take about 3 ½ days. At the end of 3 ½ days, the technician advised he would need an extra 1 ½ days to complete the work, which I said that would be ok. The fiberglass work was completed in 4 ½ days, which means we now have to have the repair painted. On the following Monday, May 11, the coach went into the paint shop for repainting. On May 13we were notified that the paint was complete, and we could come pick up the coach. We arrived on May 13 to pick up the coach however upon inspection we noticed there were two issues:
· The new color did not match
· Overspray could be found over the back end of the coach.
After the inspection, we immediately called our service adviser (LL). LL, the service manager (We'll call him MH), and the painter (We'll call him J) came out to look at the paint job, of which all players agreed the color was mismatched, which resulted in yet another trip to the paint shop. At this point we are starting week three, which is a week and a half longer than the original quote, and now beginning to impact my personal schedule.
To give you an idea on my schedule, we had arrangements to be in Phoenix on May 19th to visit friends, and had also purchased airline tickets to fly back east for the Indianapolis 500, which were nonrefundable. Based on the new schedule for repainting, I was forced to cancel the airline tickets due to the need for the coach to be repainted. We also endured extra nights at a hotel while the work was being done.
We asked the VP of Operations (We'll call him DP) if he could cover some of the extra motel days and the flight cancellation (Resulting from the bad paint job). The official company response was they would not adjust the cost of the repair to compensate for my additional out-of-pocket expense caused by the delays/oversight, however they would a $250 labor credit for our inconvenience. The original cost of the repair was over $5,000 so to them a $250 credit is just a drop in the bucket, and is not even a fraction of the additional out-of-pocket expense incurred due to the additional time the coach was in the shop.
It is now June 2 and I am still awaiting for my coach to be completed. I have been an RVer since the early 80s (Full time for over 10 year), of which I have owned 7 RVs. The reason we selected this brand was its long-term sustainability for full-time RVing, however I have to admit I have spent more on repairs on this motor home than the other RVs put together. Based on this, along with the extremely poor customer service provided, I would say this company has lost a future customer.
The reason for sending this to all of you is to give you a heads up. If you're in the market for a new coach, or looking to have repairs to your existing coach, be aware of the service you may receive from this manufacturer. Thank you.
Karl Brenneman
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Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 23, 2016, 09:03:31 am
I didn't think I was the only one that felt was wrongly done , but-----gee ,---there is way more stuff going on than I thought . Have received lots on E-mail from different folks that are cautious about posting what happened to them with issues along these lines . Sad day for all of us to be sure . I tried my best to get the president to make things right , no dice , and that is what got this whole thing in gear . I feel there is more to come , sadly but will come . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: George and Steph on April 23, 2016, 09:13:48 am
I do think this needs to be kept in perspective for those researching future used coaches that there were years when they made and serviced some of, if not the best coaches on the road.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Michelle on April 23, 2016, 09:23:02 am
I find it interesting that posts are locked quite often when they go off topic. Tell me- is bashing Foretravel not a topic that seems to fit "going off topic"?
A) "Bashing" is complaining without factual back up. If a post is hearsay (I heard some guy I don't know had bad service) or non-factual ("I think I got bad service because I have brown eyes and the tech/manager/cleaning people seem to only like people with blue eyes"), those are not allowed. Members posting factual first-person experiences are permitted as this is not "bashing". While we all like to read of good experiences, all experiences make for a complete picture.
B) This topic is about service at Foretravel. How is that "off-topic" in a forum dedicated to those coaches?
It is important to understand this is an independent forum whose purpose is to be a resource for the owners of or people interested in Foretravel motorhomes. It is not affiliated in any way with any commercial enterprise. It is volunteer-owned, run, and paid for and the site owners receive no compensation or consideration from any businesses or individuals, including our commercial members. In fact, the owners of the site have repeatedly been put in the unpleasant situation of being confronted and asked to explain what others post here that we are neither responsible for nor control. It is one of the many reasons the site owners are now, and have been for over a year, simply the landlords who pay the hosting costs and ensure the site is functional.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 23, 2016, 09:38:10 am
The whole thing here is , I was a Foretravel guy , thru and thru , and Foretravel new it , and they still did to me what they did !! How about someone going into this blind not knowing any thing about any of this . ? Maybe this just might put folks on the alert to go ahead and do what ever but do it with their eyes wide open . The effort here is not to kill Foretravel . I know the drill real well . How about the folks out there with the same PTO set up that is going to let them stranded on the side of the road ??? and they have not been notified that this is going to happen and needs to be fixed ?? Bad, bad , non caring about your customers . The slippery slope is not up . A change of mind set is needed here fairly soon . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: craneman on April 23, 2016, 09:42:43 am
Having never bought a motorhome that I didn't do all repairs myself, I am only able to compare what experience I have had with Monaco customer service getting parts or information to my experience with Foretravel. Night and day, when I called Monaco for schematics or help with issues I was told my 1996 was too old for the information I needed. When I called Foretravel I was given information on all issues with a call back or live. Maybe comparing a 1996 Monaco to a 1999 Foretravel is a date issue I don't know. I never called support for the '81 as all parts I ever needed were generic and available. If I were paying for a new or late model coach and had the same issues as Brad and others I would be as unhappy as them. But I probably have my last coach with the '99 and still love the way it is mechanic friendly for repairs, you don't want to get under the dash on a 1996 Monaco Signature.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: TheGadgetGuru on April 23, 2016, 09:57:04 am
While I'm continuing my search for my first motorhome and still attempting to figure out if buying my last coach first is a good idea or just an exercise in futility, I would like to thank Brad for bringing his first-hand situation to light.
A newer, pre-owned or even a new Foretravel is still on my radar, but from an outsider's view, it seems that the newer coaches simply aren't built to the same quality control standards as the older models. As it's plain to see on FF, it seems that owners of the older "U" models seem to be the most satisfied and the ones that are keeping the Foretravel brand alive. Yes, this observation is from a non-motorhome-owner who is still peering-in from the outside and I can only hope that Foretravel fully understands the value this forum brings to its brand.
What bothers me the most from Brad's post is the blind eye the factory seems to be giving to the importance of customer service. This issue is not isolated to Foretravel, but seems to have become somewhat of the norm among numerous other manufacturers as well. Yes, in this day and age of the instant information found within online forums, things are different than yesteryear. When someone with the credentials as Brad, who has been helpful to so many current and potential Foretravel owners (including myself), hits his breaking point due to a situation that seems to have been caused by poor quality control, it does have an effect on those of us who are thinking of purchasing this brand.
So, I'll be one to thank Brad for this post and can only hope that Foretravel Management reads this thread and understands there's most likely many potential purchasers who may only lurk and not post and these situations do have an affect on a future purchasing decision. I hope FT fully understands that having a strong reputation for supporting its current customers, having solid quality control methods throughout the manufacturing and service/repair process and delivering timely customer service, that at least to some of us, is an important factor.
In any business, reputation is everything. And that's something that's earned over time and can be destroyed quickly. Just take a look at VW and you'll understand my point. When a reputation becomes diminished, like it did with Audi in the 1970's, it can take decades to rebuild trust. Let's face it, economies are cyclical and while it's been a roller coaster ride and currently on an upswing, like we learned just a decade ago, when the ride starts heading downhill, only the strongest will survive.
I could go on and discuss my opinion of where the weak link of the motorhome industry is located, but that would be going off topic and that's not my intention or appropriate for "Brad's" discussion.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: ltg on April 23, 2016, 10:12:11 am
I believe that Foretravel is having financial difficulties. So, to help a Foretravel owner of a coach out of warranty, Foretravel is afraid that it would open a floodgate of claims and they simply do not have the resources to afford that. A good example it to simply try and get the service department to help with repairs that should be covered by a service warranty contract that is sold to coach buyers by Foretravel at the time of purchase. My fuel lift pump went bad. Clearly a warranted repair. The warranty company, based on bad explanations by the Foretravel service department, declined the claim. After talking to the VP of Operations, Foretravel lowered the cost of the repair from $1,000 to $600. The service department would do nothing until I went over their head to Foretravel management. After Foretravel management went to the regional rep for the warranty service, the warranty company finally reimbursed me for the repair. This took more than two days of our parking in the Foretravel campground. I believe all of this reluctance to help owners is because Foretravel simply does not have the financial resources to extend a good helping hand to owners when they are not legally bound to do so. Larry
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Dave Head on April 23, 2016, 10:23:43 am
Nothing is perfect, but the PTO issue really sticks in my craw. The fact that there is a proactive solution that doesn't break the bank makes it even worse.
Were I in the same situation and out of warranty I would appreciate notification and options.
This list serves as an alternate avenue for that sort of notice. I feel sorry for those that own Foretravels and aren't here. I don't participate the way I used to but I read every post. There was a time after the MOT-FOT debacle where this sort of post WOULD BE shut down. Whether the factory recognizes it our not we are a bellwether for the state of the company. We support it and promote it because we believe in it - and we shake our fists when they don't do right. I can understand if they don't like it but they should listen.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tom Lang on April 23, 2016, 10:30:32 am
I was on the phone yesterday with the Motorcade office at Foretravel. After finishing my Motorcade business, I ask if they read this forum at FT. The answer was a cautious ...yes. I then asked if she had seen Brad's post. The answer was OH YES. She has immediately taken it to James, who sent a message to LR, who will see it on his next day there. Hopefully something good will come of this.
By the way, I couldn't be happier than I am with my Foretravel, my third motor home in 30+ years. I hope this one lasts forever, but if not, wouldn't hesitate to buy another, any vintage. Just not over 40 feet long.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tom Lang on April 23, 2016, 10:35:46 am
Nothing is perfect, but the PTO issue really sticks in my craw. The fact that there is a proactive solution that doesn't break the bank makes it even worse.
Were I in the same situation and out of warranty I would appreciate notification and options.
This list serves as an alternate avenue for that sort of notice. I feel sorry for those that own Foretravels and aren't here. I don't participate the way I used to but I read every post. There was a time after the MOT-FOT debacle where this sort of post WOULD BE shut down. Whether the factory recognizes it our not we are a bellwether for the state of the company. We support it and promote it because we believe in it - and we shake our fists when they don't do right. I can understand if they don't like it but they should listen.
I agree. There is no excuse for FOT not notifying owners of the PTO issue and the simple fix. Unfortunately, FOT has never been that good at communicating.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 23, 2016, 10:44:02 am
I hope everyone can see that this is not about FT coaches specifically but more about the management and policies at FOT regarding coach and customer service. There is no doubt that a great customer oriented business attracts and keeps customers. We all want FT to survive. We all hope they get the message and improve. In the mean time there are other choices for service, repair, paint, remodel and buying your first or last coach and any one in between.
Every coach is going to suffer some problem along the way. Some are major issues that take time to fix and can be very inconvenient. Most are just things that need to get fixed. Age and miles require maintenance, repair, replacement and rehab. Ask my shoulder. Some years seemed to have more issues than other. It seemed to take the first year or two after major change or new model to work out unintended consequences. Buy a FT or SOB knowing that they will require work and money to maintain and operate. Do your homework and be the most knowledgeable buyer and owner you can be.
It is tough to see Brad feeling that FT is not meeting his expectations. He is not alone there. When we have been together he told me many times that the Phenix was going to be his last coach. I know he had some problems with it but I thought that overall it was working OK. He just likes to play well. Whatever you have next time we meet, Brad, it is the toys and fellowship that matter.
Roger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 23, 2016, 10:52:55 am
Nothing is perfect, but the PTO issue really sticks in my craw. The fact that there is a proactive solution that doesn't break the bank makes it even worse.
Yes, the PTO issue is small dollars in my opinion and would have gone a long ways to build brand loyalty. I got under my unit, separated the PTO from the trans and lubed the spline. It only takes about 2 hours with the correct tools and about 3 oz of grease. When Brad brought this situation up, a year ago, I called FOT and they new the exact years and build numbers that have the dry PTO. When I took mine apart it was evident it would have failed no doubt, as it was showing signs of wear and gear stripping.
Brad putting his experience on this board saved me from being stranded on the side of a road. I lost a lot of faith in FOT too over this situation. Simply informing me would have gone a long way.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 23, 2016, 12:21:16 pm
We were parked next to a nice couple with a fairly new SOB coach. Had something break in the rear suspension and barely got it under control and off the road. He contacted the factory, who informed him that there was a recall on the suspension, which the PO had ignored. The factory said they would not cover it, since it was now out of warranty and had a transferred owner. Many CBs later, he got it fixed, but you can bet the mfr. will never get a referral from that guy! >:D
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 23, 2016, 12:31:42 pm
Off topic posts will be deleted .
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Miz Dani on April 23, 2016, 12:32:30 pm
...two cents more: after my "less than stellar" FOT service dept. experience (2 different service advisers with a two different time frames/schedules/stories, etc.) on a Friday afternoon, late October 2015, I reluctantly left the coach at FOT & flew out Saturday, but 1st thing Monday morning had MOT go pick up my coach, then called FOT to cancel service. Finished up at MOT & re-scheduled (headlight conversion) for Xtreme this August....lot of people later said, "good, should have gone to Xtreme in the 1st place."
Anyway, both service advisers told me 2 different scenarios, delaying work & causing me to have to make more hotel reservations, etc....airline ticket non-refundable, etc. Promises not kept, basically....FOT will not get anymore of my business til they "get their poop together" in the service dept. I wasn't all that big a spender anyway, so no great loss I'm sure. 8)
Just finished up a tech session at this current rally & one gentleman said (he's had a lot of experience with the FOT service dept.) it seemed to him that the service people & the management people don't communicate at all.....like 2 separate companies....
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bobnkathy on April 23, 2016, 01:07:31 pm
A) "Bashing" is complaining without factual back up. If a post is hearsay (I heard some guy I don't know had bad service) or non-factual ("I think I got bad service because I have brown eyes and the tech/manager/cleaning people seem to only like people with blue eyes"), those are not allowed. Members posting factual first-person experiences are permitted as this is not "bashing". While we all like to read of good experiences, all experiences make for a complete picture.
B) This topic is about service at Foretravel. How is that "off-topic" in a forum dedicated to those coaches?
It is important to understand this is an independent forum whose purpose is to be a resource for the owners of or people interested in Foretravel motorhomes. It is not affiliated in any way with any commercial enterprise. It is volunteer-owned, run, and paid for and the site owners receive no compensation or consideration from any businesses or individuals, including our commercial members. In fact, the owners of the site have repeatedly been put in the unpleasant situation of being confronted and asked to explain what others post here that we are neither responsible for nor control. It is one of the many reasons the site owners are now, and have been for over a year, simply the landlords who pay the hosting costs and ensure the site is functional.
I find this interesting how quick we are to defend that bashing Foretravel is ok in this forum. That is the number one reason why I have heard so many people reluctant to join this forum. The owners of newer rigs are not ready nor do they want to hear how bad Foretravels are now and how great they were 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tim Fiedler on April 23, 2016, 01:10:29 pm
This thread has legs...
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: craneman on April 23, 2016, 01:25:50 pm
I find this interesting how quick we are to defend that bashing Foretravel is ok in this forum. That is the number one reason why I have heard so many people reluctant to join this forum. The owners of newer rigs are not ready nor do they want to hear how bad Foretravels are now and how great they were 15 years ago.
There were some newer owners posting in this thread that they were happy to find out about possible failures in order to prevent them.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: TheGadgetGuru on April 23, 2016, 01:29:26 pm
I find this interesting how quick we are to defend that bashing Foretravel is ok in this forum. That is the number one reason why I have heard so many people reluctant to join this forum. The owners of newer rigs are not ready nor do they want to hear how bad Foretravels are now and how great they were 15 years ago.
I'm going to have to kindly disagree with the quoted post on this matter as I don't consider honest information to be bashing. It is what it is. As long as information is disseminated in an honest manner, it can be very helpful to others.
Let's face it, whether it's a pre-owned or new coach, these things are expensive to purchase and can be time consuming and costly to maintain. In this day and age, it seems that many potential buyers of a specific brand will take the time to perform due diligence to learn the issues faced by current owners. All products have issues and the difference is how these issues are handled.
To me, this is the value of a forum of this type that tells things like they are and doesn't sugar coat things and I'm appreciative of the management of this site to allow these types of discussions. The good news is that manufacturers, at any time, can check user forums and learn of possible issues that could be adversely affecting the enjoyment of their recreational products. The factory should be grateful this forum exists as it provides feedback that can be used to make things better.
It's the decision of the factory management if they choose to address issues that surface and change current methods to raise the bar of the customer's experience.
The only thing I'll add is that, while this is not isolated to FT, I'm miffed when a product has a known potential issue that can be solved with a service and the factory does not take the effort to contact current owners to inform them of the problem. Even if it's out of warranty, just having the notification via email could save the current owner a lot of future headaches.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Carol Savournin on April 23, 2016, 01:45:37 pm
I have often posted about our experiences at Foretravel. Our experiences with the service department and especially the remodel department have always been positive. On the few occasions where we had an issue that merited discussion and negotiation, we always felt we were "heard" and a satisfactory outcome was achieved. That being said ... our newest coach is a 2002 U320. We are at the top end of our ability to deal with complicated machinery and our best repair tools are a credit card and a telephone. Whenever I had a need to reach out to the Technical assistance and Mr Triana, we promptly got a callback. Of course, we pay the "enhanced fee" for our membership for that luxury, but even before that little fee was required, I was never left hanging. I can't speak to the financial issues that may or may not be affecting the Foretravel company. But I can express the opinion that if Foretravel would begin rolling out U320 coaches again, they would still be superior to almost all the other brands on the road today. Leave the Phenixes and the IH-45s where they are. Just go back to the one that really gets you down the road.
There is no one that I give any greater credibility to than Brad Metzger. He is not prone to exaggeration or fabrication and has repeatedly praised, justified and clarified issues that have had others questioning the Foretravel brand. Karl Brenneman is another quiet guy who keeps his own counsel most of the time, but when the need arises can be counted on to give the true facts and not exaggerate or bias the issue.
We all know that these are exceptionally fine machines ... and for the present management to fail to address issues to the best of their ability with loyal customers is an error in judgement, in my opinion. A previous poster put up a link to an article giving details of a lawsuit between Foretravel and the Fore family that goes back to the time of the sale of the company and a great many allegations of shady maneuvers by the sellers. There may be a great deal more behind the scenes that we will never be privy to ... but you still have to maintain loyalty with your customer base by doing the right thing when the time arises. Honesty IS the best policy ... not "Geez .. I hope they don't find out"!!
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on April 23, 2016, 02:14:56 pm
Most people are aware that with exactly the same quality (quality of components and quality of construction) the more complex the machine the more things that can fail. Said another way, if it ain't there, it can't cause a breakdown.
Whether the later model substantial increase in complexity is truly market driven or is a result of perceived market demand might be an interesting (separate) discussion.
Clearly, current product are a substantial departure from older product. That doesn't make them good or bad, just different with many more components that can fail.
And, those who want/need all the bells and whistles need to be aware of that. Foretravel is NOT different in this regard than other high-end custom/semi-custom motorhomes.
Mercedes when through the same thing a decade ago as the complexity of their vehicle increased exponentially. Can recall a number of years where Consumer Report's statistical reports had MB in the lower half of all vehicles sold in terms of reliability.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Jim Sizemore on April 23, 2016, 02:23:17 pm
I hope everyone can see that this is not about FT coaches specifically but more about the management and policies at FOT regarding coach and customer service. There is no doubt that a great customer oriented business attracts and keeps customers. We all want FT to survive. We all hope they get the message and improve. In the mean time there are other choices for service, repair, paint, remodel and buying your first or last coach and any one in between.
Every coach is going to suffer some problem along the way. Some are major issues that take time to fix and can be very inconvenient. Most are just things that need to get fixed. Age and miles require maintenance, repair, replacement and rehab. Ask my shoulder. Some years seemed to have more issues than other. It seemed to take the first year or two after major change or new model to work out unintended consequences. Buy a FT or SOB knowing that they will require work and money to maintain and operate. Do your homework and be the most knowledgeable buyer and owner you can be.
It is tough to see Brad feeling that FT is not meeting his expectations. He is not alone there. When we have been together he told me many times that the Phenix was going to be his last coach. I know he had some problems with it but I thought that overall it was working OK. He just likes to play well. Whatever you have next time we meet, Brad, it is the toys and fellowship that matter.
Roger
I think I know what SOB translates to in our real world - but, will someone please translate it here for me? Another example of what I asked about when I wanted to know if we had a glossery on the forum....
Jim & Thanks much!
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Miz Dani on April 23, 2016, 02:25:44 pm
I think I know what SOB translates to in our real world - but, will someone please translate it here for me? Another example of what I asked about when I wanted to know if we had a glossery on the forum....
Jim & Thanks much!
...some other brand.....i.e. anything but a Foretravel....I had to ask somebody the same question when I first joined the forum, who knew?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on April 23, 2016, 04:11:12 pm
I think I know what SOB translates to in our real world - but, will someone please translate it here for me? Another example of what I asked about when I wanted to know if we had a glossery on the forum...
In case you haven't found it or been pointed at it, this is the closest we have to a glossary:
RV Abbreviations, Acronyms and Initialisms (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/rv_abbreviations_acronyms_and_initialisms.html)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 23, 2016, 08:06:08 pm
I find this interesting how quick we are to defend that bashing Foretravel is ok in this forum. That is the number one reason why I have heard so many people reluctant to join this forum. The owners of newer rigs are not ready nor do they want to hear how bad Foretravels are now and how great they were 15 years ago.
I will not call this bashing but a review of his situation, experiences and FT response. This forum allows people to exchange ideas, information and experiences and focuses around Foretravel coaches. The internet and forums like this allow owners to share information and it allows all of us to learn from them. Service and customer interaction done at FT and how they choose to interact with their owners and customers is their business, but in this connected world customers sometimes relay their experiences on here. In todays internet age a company has to worry about their internet presence and reviews as well as those who are in front of them. I for one am interested in what Brad posted about his experiences and am also interested in how FT responded.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bobnkathy on April 23, 2016, 08:08:47 pm
I will not call this bashing but a review of his situation, experiences and FT response. This forum allows people to exchange ideas, information and experiences and focuses around Foretravel coaches. The internet and forums like this allow owners to share information and it allows all of us to learn from them. Service and customer interaction done at FT and how they choose to interact with their owners and customers is their business but in this connected world customers sometimes relay their experiences on here. In todays internet age a company has to worry about their internet presence and reviews as well as those who are in front of them. I for one am interested in what Brad posted about his experiences and am also interested in how FT responded.
Lets set the record straight. Foretravel repair work as well as their paint shop is really in need of talented folks. Too many of the old timers gone and young bucks there. The last paint repair work and delamination that was repaired about three years ago at Foretravel failed already. The entire paint on the entire coach is crazing and in need of a total repaint job. The last place I would take the coach for repair would be back to the plant. Way over priced, will not quote you a price and stick with it, work done by low skilled workers, and an attitude that we should be grateful they are there. Naturally, the last and only coach I ever intend to buy from Foretravel. Thank God it has a Cummins and Allison which was never touched by the folks at the plant.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 23, 2016, 08:28:58 pm
Did I just read a 180 deg change or what ????? JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Michael & Jackie on April 23, 2016, 08:52:34 pm
Great thread, covers various aspects, seems about all has been said that can be UNLESS FOT replies. And appreciate Carol's notation of Brad and the other person posting intentions and care with it.
BTW....on just general service, there is competition available if service is not handled well wherever you go. Usually that leads to improvements.
In reading the frustration about being uninformed of the issue and serious consequences......Do we have a list of common issues, major ones, as worthy of recall, such as the lube PTO matter?
(I think I asked such some time ago and it judged not practical....maybe a good reason to not try that. We can get there for a buyer simply by them asking on the Forum, "I am about to buy a year model U -, any pros/cons?" but that does not help in the same manner as a data base would)
example....I was thinking about a certain coach and a member told me just to be sure to check on the PTO.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Dave Head on April 23, 2016, 10:09:00 pm
I was looking at a very nice 07 Nimbus 42 on the MOT website - Wonder if it has the PTO.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Michelle on April 23, 2016, 10:38:22 pm
I was looking at a very nice 07 Nimbus 42 on the MOT website - Wonder if it has the PTO.
FT would know, if you have the build number Break down on I-10 (fan pump failure) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23654.msg186225#msg186225) They know exactly which coaches are involved. If you aren't the owner of record I don't know what information they can share.
If the coach you are looking at has an ISL it might fall into the "80 coaches originally had the non-greasable shaft. 18 involved ISL engines that have not indicated a service life problem." I do not know what that statement means nor how to interpret it.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bobnkathy on April 24, 2016, 12:04:21 am
I was looking at a very nice 07 Nimbus 42 on the MOT website - Wonder if it has the PTO.
Watch out for many issues with the 2007 Nimbus year. Paint issues on most. Overheating because of poor setup with fan system. Delamination issues where front or rear cap meets the side body. Also delamination issues around the driver's window area. The entire control unit for the drivers air conditioner, heat unit is no longer available, front tv will fail if still in wood cabinet because it was not vented, if the coach has the old seals in the slide out they will fail, muffler system has a tendency to move around and drop off, villa couch rips easily, easy chair worthless, tiles on floor crack easily, drivers seat is not aligned with steering wheel - yes, you site to the side of the steering wheel - done because seat would not turn around otherwise, fluorescent lights in cabinets worthless, rear axles seals will fail and need replacing, underpowered if 400 ISL, if ISL engine there was a very critical recall, poor outside step, and the list goes on. I would pass on a 2007 Nimbus no matter how good it looks.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 24, 2016, 07:44:13 am
Woke up this morning to find my mail box loaded . The thing that jumps out in this mail is , --there are a bunch of folks out there that are now aware of the PTO thing and are worried about failure on the road . I was thanked for the notice for doing the posting . I do not claim to be any kind of expert on this subject , just on the receiving end of the failure and the learning that goes with it . There are ( 9 ) people in my mail box that have the same set up as mine that have not failed yet . The most millage on them was 53.000 miles . Some folks don't travel as much as I do , so they will not experience it for a while . All this post did was open the box and allow people that read this forum to do something about what they didn't know about previously . How else could they find out about it . ? Brads Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bobnkathy on April 24, 2016, 08:30:38 am
Woke up this morning to find my mail box loaded . The thing that jumps out in this mail is , --there are a bunch of folks out there that are now aware of the PTO thing and are worried about failure on the road . I was thanked for the notice for doing the posting . I do not claim to be any kind of expert on this subject , just on the receiving end of the failure and the learning that goes with it . There are ( 9 ) people in my mail box that have the same set up as mine that have not failed yet . The most millage on them was 53.000 miles . Some folks don't travel as much as I do , so they will not experience it for a while . All this post did was open the box and allow people that read this forum to do something about what they didn't know about previously . How else could they find out about it . ? Brads Metzger
Brad, your post illustrates the point that Foretravel does know about various problems with their coaches but decides not to take action like notifying the owners of a potential problem, This is not unique to just your model. The Nimbus series of 2007 was plagued with fiberglass issues and poor sealing of end caps with the side of the body. Yes, they would fix it if the coach was under warranty. But outside warranty, then that was a different matter. At first, back in 2008 and 2009, the plant did attempt to repair it free of charge but their paint shop could not really properly handle the work. No wonder since they were the ones in the first place that painted the coach. Afterwards in 2010, you were left to defend for yourself with Triana being the one to convince that something needed to be done with the owner footing for at least half of the bill. However, the work done even at that time was not good and subject to fail yet again. The point is we have a company here trying to survive and working on repairing past consumer issues on their dime can not be afforded. The policy seems to be to say nothing and handle all complaints from the consumer on a need to know basis and a one to one basis. I would also say this policy seems to be prevalent in the industry as well. It is consumer be aware and people like yourself who bring out a potential dangerous problem can really help others who might find themselves in a similar situation.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mark D on April 24, 2016, 10:49:13 pm
The solution for me is to just buy a boat instead of my next coach I think ;)
The thing that really strikes me is that we're talking about an $800 fix. That is *nothing* in the grand scheme of things. If a company wouldn't fess up that their owners are going to need to spend some money because of some omission in engineering what worse thing would they hide? I'd bet every owner of one of these coaches has SOME money set aside to deal with these things and would sincerely appreciate the notification. That's not a free repair. That's not a pricey thing to do.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: D.J. Osborn on April 25, 2016, 07:03:22 am
The thing that really strikes me is that we're talking about an $800 fix. That is *nothing* in the grand scheme of things.
That's my thinking, as well. I think it only makes sense to notify owners to make sure they're aware of the situation. Then, I believe it's a good business practice for the company to either pay the full cost of the retrofit or to at least pay 50% of the cost as a goodwill gesture. Proactive notification and some offer of financial compensation go a long way toward maintaining (and building) a good customer base.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretrave
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 25, 2016, 09:03:46 am
quote author=Michelle link=msg=230295 date=1461455752] Here is the original information. It is 80 coaches, not 19
Quote from: esaulten - 2 days ago
I was told there were 19 Phenix coaches that had a potential problem. Many have been updated with new Zirk greasable shaft. Wet kit not usable on Foretravels.
Here is the original information. It is 80 coaches, not 19
Quote from: brrving - A year ago I requested some additional information from James T. and he promptly replied with the following. It appears FT was on top of this and had a warranty plan in place to assist owners.
Excerpt from email: ___________________________________ According to our records there are 80 coaches that have the PTO for the hydraulic pump on certain Foretravel Motorcoaches involving Phenix and Nimbus model years 2007-2010.
When we were aware of the potential problem we established 4 levels of service policy for both pre- and post- warranty expiration for our owners with these non-greasable shafts. · 80 coaches originally had the non-greasable shaft. · 18 involved ISL engines that have not indicated a service life problem. · 34 in that unit range have had greasable shafts installed post production. · Some have had in excess of 70,000 miles without failure. · 28 PTOs could still be suspect. · Inspections are still recommended and shafts with fittings greased per our original service bulletin dated 8/18/2011.
Note: Unlike other motorhome manufacturers our pump is for cooling only and does not affect the separate steering pump operation.
Sincerely, James [Triana]
Break down on I-10 (fan pump failure) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23654.msg186225#msg186225)
[/quote]
Please do some fact checking before making statements that are based on assumptions. MIchelle posted this on another parallel thread quoting others with direct knowledge and a copy of an email from James Triana. The Service Bulletin on this PTO issue is dated 8/18/2011.
Should FT sent a letter to all 80 owners? It would have been the right thing to do. As of at least a year ago there were 34 out of 80 that may need to be inspected and fixed. How many of those coaches still belong to the original owner?
Many got the message a little over a year ago when Brad had his fail. It looks like from Brad's earlier post that maybe nine more (based on PMs to him) now know as well.
The Forum can be an effective way to let owners know when there is a service or mechanical issue that other should know about and take action as they see fit. If that was the point of this thread then it seems as though it has become somewhat frayed and fuzzy.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 25, 2016, 12:47:22 pm
Update: After online research, talking to Chris and Brad (thanks to both for their time) this is what I found out so far. Chelsea (PTO manufacturer) sells a field conversion kit to a greaseable unit for approx $300. You have to remove the PTO, remove existing shaft/bearing and replace the shaft/pressure fit the new bearings etc. Not a back yard mechanic type job. Not as simple as installing a zerk fitting.
Just left a v/m for Drew (VP of FT) to discuss my situation. As stated FT had a service bulletin in 2011 which I as an original owner never got. The irony is I was at the factory in 2011 and 2013 (doing updates/remodeling over $19K spent) and never was told about the 2011 bulletin and that they needed to inspect my PTO splines/shaft since I was there.
Wil give an update after I talk to Drew.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 25, 2016, 01:46:36 pm
I will be interested in seeing the response. I would think there needs to be a relief port of some sort so when pumping new grease in some can come out too.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 25, 2016, 02:59:14 pm
The more I think about this the more ticked off I get. And I already spent the time on my own to mitigate this situation. BUT, how does a manufacturer allow 30+ RVs to continue to be on the road with a known issue that "will" happen. Not "if" it will happen. When this failure occurs, the coach will shut down. Now you are very likely on the side of the road (we all know these machine seldom fail when most convenient) with cars passing by at 70mph trying to figure what happened. How can this not be considered a safety issue at some level? You then need a tow truck to come get you and bring you into a shop somewhere. So, lots of lost time and money. For an $800.00 part and situation that could be mitigated with 3oz of grease and about 2 hours of work.
I'm getting >:(
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 25, 2016, 03:11:59 pm
I will be interested in seeing the response. I would think there needs to be a relief port of some sort so when pumping new grease in some can come out too.
I spoke with Chelsea and there is a weep hole in the flange for the old grease to escape. Plus each time you re-grease you only do about an oz.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 25, 2016, 03:15:13 pm
That is great to know.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 25, 2016, 03:17:00 pm
Service bulletin ------------wow , when I returned from Arizona after the PTO event , I ask Lyle ,why wasn't there some sort of notification on this ? His reply , I think I did a memo on that . I said , I didn't get any notice on it . He said it went to the service department . Don't know what become of all that but you see how it came down . Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 25, 2016, 06:54:05 pm
Just talked to Drew. We had a good conversation. He said he would do some research and get back to me.
My position is FT is not responsible for a free replacement but they are responsible for a percentage of it. Free would be betterment but I have gotten 54K miles of use out of mine so far. As stated earlier they knew these PTO's were failing, issued a service bulletin and stop using the non greaseable PTO's, but did not notify the approx 80 coach owners affected. They also knew CC in 2005 had failures with the same PTO. Thanks goodness for this forum!!! I do not want to breakdown in the middle of nowhere!
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 25, 2016, 07:00:42 pm
Let's keep those that already dealt with this on their own dime in any conversation with Drew, Darrell.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Lucky1 on April 26, 2016, 09:04:40 am
Brad,
Sorry to hear this. Thanks for sharing your experience though. My coach is at 26,000 miles and given our coaches are back to back coach numbers, I will be under mine first thing to explore this dry PTO issue. I suspect you just saved me a truckload of problems in the Northwest with my family this summer. And, ironically, highlights why I like Foretravel. This forum is hard to replicate and is, in my opinion, the best thing going for the brand.
Thanks again. Hang in there.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 10:28:20 am
Sorry to hear this. Thanks for sharing your experience though. My coach is at 26,000 miles and given our coaches are back to back coach numbers, I will be under mine first thing to explore this dry PTO issue. I suspect you just saved me a truckload of problems in the Northwest with my family this summer. And, ironically, highlights why I like Foretravel. This forum is hard to replicate and is, in my opinion, the best thing going for the brand.
Thanks again. Hang in there.
Hey Lucky, It is easy to find because it is red in color. Located on the pass side of trans. If you do not see a zerk fitting on the end of the PTO (the end that faces the rear of the coach) you have the non greaseable unit. It will eventually fail.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Lucky1 on April 26, 2016, 11:13:09 am
Who is the best to do repair? This is beyond my pay grade. Cummins, Allison, or a shop in Nac? Would be great if I could do this locally.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 26, 2016, 11:22:14 am
I would see if FT will help on it and do it for you or reccommend someone. I would think Allison could do it. I am not sure I agree with the comment above that FT appreciates this forum as much as the owners do. :D
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 26, 2016, 11:51:12 am
I am not sure I agree with the comment above that FT appreciates this forum as much as the owners do. :D
I can't believe that FT is unaware of this thread, and, if known, were I upstairs, would be falling all over myself to "do the right thing". ^.^d
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 26, 2016, 12:10:22 pm
Did not say not aware rather not as appreciative as we are.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 26, 2016, 12:27:58 pm
Mike, FT IS aware of this thread for sure as a few there look at it frequently, it is just that they do not know how to respond to any of the concerns shown on issues brought up here on Forum!!! Instead, think of sending a message thru' someone at FT to the Forum that " We are endeavoring to to answer this problem (and others that have been mentioned) and our intention is to come to a mutually agreeable conclusion for owners of affected coach's. Our decision will not only be sent to these people but also posted on this Forum. "Foretravel" would also like to take this opportunity to owners of all models and years, that every one of them is important to this company, and is testimony to the quality of our name" Will we see anything close to this, hmmm, your guess is as good as mine? JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 12:39:21 pm
When I talked to James T yesterday he stated they are well aware of the issue and are monitoring the forum.
I agree with your assessment John!
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 26, 2016, 12:56:52 pm
Some resolution is needed here between Foretravel, the owners of these coaches and the PTO supplier to Foretravel/Allison.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 01:27:02 pm
I spoke with James. My coach was fixed in February of 2014. Super nice, very helpful.
Just make sure you grease going forward and use the proper grease.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Don Rickey on April 26, 2016, 04:29:39 pm
Here's another update, folks.
I spoke with James yesterday about this and provided him with my build number. They are definitely aware of the discussions on the forum.
James referenced the build number, but he also wanted to see some pictures of the engine. He wanted to make absolutely sure, without having the coach in front of him, that mine was either affected or not affected by the PTO issue. This was his response:
"Your coach does not have a PTO. It has an engine gear driven pump. Which is controlled by a Sauer Danfoss controller. The last two pics show the controller at the hitch area lower right hand area."
The "last two pics" that James refers to are pictures I sent him of the engine area. I have attached those two pictures to this message, for reference. I have no idea what the controller looks like, but James could could clearly see it.
I really appreciated how quickly James got back to me and how thorough he was in verifying the status of the PTO issue for my coach.
On a broader note, this seems to me to be an issue that could very likely become a win/win depending on what steps might be taken. Unfortunately, it right now appears to be a lose/lose. It's a loss in the sense that Brad and others are having to deal with these issues and I think it's a loss in the sense that the Foretravel folks I have talked with hate seeing the brand and customers suffer from these issues. I have great hopes this can be worked out. Not the first time I have been called naive, but I see good folks on both sides of this problem.
Safe travels, everyone.
Don
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on April 26, 2016, 04:44:57 pm
Yes, this whole PTO discussion is for and only for hydraulic pumps DRIVEN OFF THE TRANSMISSION, NOT THE ENGINE.
Very easy to identify if you have a good-sized hydraulic pump hanging off the side of your transmission.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 05:09:26 pm
A word of caution to owners who have greaseble PTO's on 2011 models to present. Make sure you grease it with Chelsea recommended grease, 379831 (spline grease). The techs at Chelsea say do it when you change your oil. Do not use any other type of grease like the grease you would use to grease the chassis i.e. u-joints. Plus each time you only put in about an 1 oz. Not like when you grease u-joints. The part no. is for a tube you put in a grease gun. So best to have a dedicated grease gun just for the PTO.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: esaulten on April 26, 2016, 06:05:59 pm
I thought it would be good to show the PTO and pump assembly on my Phenix
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: esaulten on April 26, 2016, 06:07:33 pm
sorry the picture didn't post
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 06:52:10 pm
I just learned MOT checks the PTO's as a matter of routine. I am now starting to get mad. I was at FOT in '11 and '13 and they did not check or even mention I could break down somewhere because of a PTO failure.
I hope it is not true but based on Brad's comments it appears that Lyle is more concerned about profit and a return on his investment than doing the right thing. I hope that he is so wrong. I did speak with Foretravel yesterday, and they seem to be evaluating their best solutions. I will let all of you know of the outcome, and remain optimistic that although mistakes were made, they will step up and help make this right. My wife and I have been avid Foretravel advocates, and when meeting others in our travels, we have sent new customers their way. I hope that we will feel confident doing that in the future, and that we can share the story of a company that stands behind its product. We have raved about their customer service - this incident has made us question their commitment to their customer but they can still do the right thing.
Pls Lyle, stand behind your product and your customers - correct this with all 07-10 models/owners affected.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bobnkathy on April 26, 2016, 07:27:16 pm
I just learned MOT checks the PTO's as a matter of routine. I am now starting to get mad. I was at FOT in '11 and '13 and they did not check or even mention I could break down somewhere because of a PTO failure.
I read your post and I must agree that FOT really does not step forward. With their 2007 Nimbus, they knew they had issues with the fiberglass used on the coaches. This problem caused crazing. At first, when pressed to repair it, if the coach was under warranty they would. They would not notify you of the problem, only if you mentioned something. Those coaches not under warranty, well it started with splitting the cost. Now, today, you are totally on your own. I own a coach the has crazing on every spot possible. I have seen this with other 2007 Nimbus. So, what do I have, a lemon? You bet, my resale value is much lower due to this problem that was the responsibility of FOT from the beginning. Be grateful your problem is mechanical and can be fixed. Imagine a total paint job on a coach looking like a paint job on a cheap pull behind trailer. Never again will I purchase another Foretravel nor use the services at the FOT. Maybe I should paint this rig in bright yellow with Lemon graphics on all the sides.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 26, 2016, 07:42:52 pm
Now you see what happens when investors buy and control any company, they are in it for the bucks.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Caflashbob on April 26, 2016, 07:48:24 pm
Now you see what happens when investors buy and control any company, they are in it for the bucks.
Or possibly to save it. Along with make money hopefully
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 26, 2016, 07:50:07 pm
Bob,
Do you have any photos to show what has happened to your paint? May help to get others together with a similar problem that could help force the issue.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 26, 2016, 07:57:45 pm
--- SAFETY ISSUE-----When things come your way that are going to require money to fix , you got to just plain do it . If it hurts , well you pay anyway as it has got to be fixed right . You don't take your coach on the road and something not be fixed before you go . So , you saddle up and off you go , it's a good feeling to start out on a good trip headed for that great destination . You have addressed every thing that you knew about , inspected it your self looking for anything that might not be right . Now here we are , getting close to the big Q event on I-10 about 35 or so miles to go and the engine temperature started rising rapidly . What to do , --you pull over as soon as you possibly can . A small narrow shoulder , ---tuff , pull over now , don't hurt your engine . That is exactly how it came down . So I get off as far as I can , but like I said , (narrow ) shoulder and a very steep slope down . Open the door , heck it is nearly 4 feet to the ground from the bottom step . No problem you say , well I was 78 years old . Phoned James T. , he ask questions , and said it is the PTO . I never heard of the coach having a PTO , so he filled me in on that . James told me to check for a wiring plug on the transmission . So I get out , crawl under the coach , belly slide thing to the tranny and can not find that wire plug . Now all this is not good , I am under the coach , feet sticking out where ever trying ti find that wire plug to unhook .the speed limit here is 70 MPH . and all the heavy traffic on I-10 , headed to California was hauling butt , lots of big trucks and everything was head to tail 70 plus MPH and only about 3 feet from me . That scared the stuff out of me , no escape , just sit there an wait . Now after all this is said and done I can tell you loud and clear , it is a ( very large safety issue ). That is the main thing that is overlooked in this whole mess . Texas , has a strict safety code for motor vehicles . ----------? Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 26, 2016, 08:10:02 pm
Would a electric fan or series of fans do the job?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: brrving on April 26, 2016, 08:11:10 pm
Brad with your recent issue as a reference, you should post it for investigation on the NHTSA site. This may be a recall candidate.
File a Vehicle Safety Complaint | Safercar.gov | NHTSA (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 26, 2016, 08:29:16 pm
Look at what I just found; Electric Fan Engineering : Cooling Fans : Truck Electric Fans (http://www.electricfanengineering.com/app_truck_turbine_electric_fans.html)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: bobnkathy on April 26, 2016, 08:29:40 pm
BRAD, I find it interesting when you called FOT about your problem, they knew right away what the issue was. Telling would you not say?
Bob
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 26, 2016, 08:45:04 pm
So, why would anyone buy any company, endure the headaches, make the investment, if not for profit? There are far better ways to seek self fulfillment than business ownership. Most people with high minded ideas of how things "should be done" have never owned a durable, ongoing concern. Expecting forever warranties on products, or a never ending stream of communications about possible errors or omissions, while appealing to owners, is just not feasible in the competitive market. No automaker does it, nor any other manufacturer I am aware of. How many people owned cars that shed their paint as the failures of the new electrostatic paint application process became apparent? I owned several, as did many others I know, and none of these deep pocket companies mentioned so much as a peep to me about it, much less offered to repaint their failed jobs.
So, a plug here for Foretravel. They do many things right, and some wrong. The original poster on this thread stated his issues, his dissatisfaction with how they were handled, and that he was lost as a valued customer, the most stinging rebuke possible, when it involves the lost sale of an IH45.
I am saying that I have had exceptional support from Foretravel, and that they go above and beyond in their efforts to support my now 19 year old coach. No, it's not perfect. Yes, it has one of those infernal balancers on the output shaft of the Allison tranny that may some day fail and be a big repair. No, I don't think it's Ft's fault and don't expect them to pay all, part, or any of the repair costs when it happens. Same thing goes for bulkheads and numerous other items. But there are so very many things that they got so right that in balance, its a long term win for me.
I hope some good will come from this painful thread, in the form of policy adjustments from one side, and a consideration of reasonable expectations from the other.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: wolfe10 on April 26, 2016, 09:06:23 pm
Look at what I just found; Electric Fan Engineering : Cooling Fans : Truck Electric Fans (http://www.electricfanengineering.com/app_truck_turbine_electric_fans.html)
In a word, NO. With the CAC and radiator in front where 70 MPH wind is aiding air flow, YES.
In the back where close to 25 HP is required to cool a large diesel-- NO. No alternator could put out close to that amount of work.
Looks good at first glance, but there is a reason that either mechanical or hydraulic drives are used for DP's.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 09:11:10 pm
Chuck, with all due respect I for one am not saying a product should be warranted forever. I think that is an stretch with regards to this issue. Who said or implied that?
I clearly stated that they should not pay for a replacement but assist with a portion of the cost. It is documented they knew of a serious issue and did NOTHING to warn owners. They chose to install dry PTO's knowing Country Coach in 05 had legal issues with there use of the same PTO. To my knowledge they also did not tell original owners like me to make sure these are lubricated yearly.
They switched to the greaseable in 2011. I for one wonder why? If, as you believe manufacturers have no responsibility after the warranty period, why not stay with the non greaseable unit because they last past the warranty period?
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 26, 2016, 09:22:38 pm
There is no time limit on Product Liability, we are still getting recalls on our 1994 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The same should apply to safety issues of any RV.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: craneman on April 26, 2016, 09:27:59 pm
There is no time limit on Product Liability, we are still getting recalls on our 1994 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The same should apply to safety issues of any RV.
Gas tank rupturing might not be a fair comparison.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Carol Savournin on April 26, 2016, 09:59:29 pm
As I read and get more of an idea on the whole scenario here ... I understand that all that would have been needed was for FOT to have TOLD Brad about the issue when he bought the coach. "Here is a design flaw that we learned about after the fact and here is the procedure that we have come up with to avoid trouble." Done. Brad would still have written the check and been the same happy customer he was for all those years. There are design flaws that exist on our '02 U320 that we learned about when we were tooling down the road and needed to be addressed. One was on the Cummins engine, that involved a fuel assist pump going bad and needing to be removed and the system simplified. We were limping along and going nuts trying to diagnose the issue for 3 months until it came to light. The solution was outlined in a Cummins bulletin that the mechanic at Hal Burns (Santa Fe) found. Foretravel maybe knew about it, but I do not know if they have mentioned it to any owners with that engine. The other issue is with one of the hydraulic pumps for the cooling system. There are 2, one about $600 and the other about $3000 ... and of course, it is the pricey, high pressure one that fails and cannot be rebuilt. It is manufactured in Britain and is not readily available and was only used in the design for a few years. No one told us about that, either. BUT ...... even if folks had, we would have still bought the coach and just been aware of the issue and ready to spring into action when the time came.
Here is a story that I have told to people privately, but never on this Forum ....
We bought our coach from MOT and the seller had left it on consignment with a long list of items he wanted addressed while it was on the lot. He intended to use the coach again, if it did not sell. This, we learned from the seller himself, when we met him about 3 months later ... no kidding! MOT's sales department never passed that list on to us and they certainly did not give any of the info to their service department. They just wanted our check and to wave goodbye to us as we went down the road. ALL of the items would have happily been addressed by us in their shop before we left with our new-to-us coach. We weren't gonna change our minds about buying. It took a long, frustrating 4 months to correct stuff. It took about that same time before I was able to corner the CEO of MOT (he ran away from me twice!) and let him understand that his secretive sales tactics caused him to leave money on the table ... because we would have paid to have the sellers list addressed IN HIS SHOP, HAD WE BUT KNOWN. He stuttered and hemmed and hawed and tried to say that was "not how MOT wanted to do business" ... but he never denied anything. I HOPE that my nose inches from his when he was cornered in his front lobby in front of several employees helped convince him that those tactics of concealment were not only bad business, but could have long lasting repercussions. I have been vocal here on the Forum about my confidence in the service techs at MOT and the friendliness and helpfulness of others there. But my confidence in the organization was forever shaken by that glaring "lie by omission" of concealing information that was in their possession and would have been fair to disclose. They knew it wasn't going to kill the deal ... they knew from experience with us as customers that we would open our wallet when needed ... and they still let us drive off. One "stand out guy" at MOT was Mike Rodgers, who called me almost daily (unless I called him first) and tried and tried to help us with all the issues. He was my hero. There are outstanding individuals who have my trust at both MOT and FOT, but the trust does not bleed upwards to the guys in charge.
So ... good, bad & ugly ... I think we can discuss who should have done what and speculate about which responsibility belongs where ... BUT, we must never forget that we are essentially talking about Used Car Dealers. High end, fancy, recreational, used cars.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 26, 2016, 10:41:56 pm
You nailed it Carol. Let's add to the high end, fancy, recreational used cars, cars with not one but five different electrical systems including a two power plants. Shape shifting cars that have rooms that slide out and retract. Cars that not only drive and have excellent brakes, and redundant brakes at that, but that fill the function of a house except that they are independent houses with sewage, grey water storage, two water systems, a reservoir. These aren't simple devices. There will be problems.
Ever own a Ferrari? How many clutches (per year?)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 26, 2016, 10:55:40 pm
As I read and get more of an idea on the whole scenario here ... I understand that all that would have been needed was for FOT to have TOLD Brad about the issue when he bought the coach. "Here is a design flaw that we learned about after the fact and here is the procedure that we have come up with to avoid trouble." Done. Brad would still have written the check and been the same happy customer he was for all those years. There are design flaws that exist on our '02 U320 that we learned about when we were tooling down the road and needed to be addressed. One was on the Cummins engine, that involved a fuel assist pump going bad and needing to be removed and the system simplified. We were limping along and going nuts trying to diagnose the issue for 3 months until it came to light. The solution was outlined in a Cummins bulletin that the mechanic at Hal Burns (Santa Fe) found. Foretravel maybe knew about it, but I do not know if they have mentioned it to any owners with that engine. The other issue is with one of the hydraulic pumps for the cooling system. There are 2, one about $600 and the other about $3000 ... and of course, it is the pricey,
As I read and get more of an idea on the whole scenario here ... I understand that all that would have been needed was for FOT to have TOLD Brad about the issue when he bought the coach. "Here is a design flaw that we learned about after the fact and here is the procedure that we have come up with to avoid trouble." Done. Brad would still have written the check and been the same happy customer he was for all those years. There are design flaws that exist on our '02 U320 that we learned about when we were tooling down the road and needed to be addressed. One was on the Cummins engine, that involved a fuel assist pump going bad and needing to be removed and the system simplified. We were limping along and going nuts trying to diagnose the issue for 3 months until it came to light. The solution was outlined in a Cummins bulletin that the mechanic at Hal Burns (Santa Fe) found. Foretravel maybe knew about it, but I do not know if they have mentioned it to any owners with that engine. The other issue is with one of the hydraulic pumps for the cooling system. There are 2, one about $600 and the other about $3000 ... and of course, it is the pricey, high pressure one that fails and cannot be rebuilt. It is manufactured in Britain and is not readily available and was only used in the design for a few years. No one told us about that, either. BUT ...... even if folks had, we would have still bought the coach and just been aware of the issue and ready to spring into action when the time came.
Here is a story that I have told to people privately, but never on this Forum ....
We bought our coach from MOT and the seller had left it on consignment with a long list of items he wanted addressed while it was on the lot. He intended to use the coach again, if it did not sell. This, we learned from the seller himself, when we met him about 3 months later ... no kidding! MOT's sales department never passed that list on to us and they certainly did not give any of the info to their service department. They just wanted our check and to wave goodbye to us as we went down the road. ALL of the items would have happily been addressed by us in their shop before we left with our new-to-us coach. We weren't gonna change our minds about buying. It took a long, frustrating 4 months to correct stuff. It took about that same time before I was able to corner the CEO of MOT (he ran away from me twice!) and let him understand that his secretive sales tactics caused him to leave money on the table ... because we would have paid to have the sellers list addressed IN HIS SHOP, HAD WE BUT KNOWN. He stuttered and hemmed and hawed and tried to say that was "not how MOT wanted to do business" ... but he never denied anything. I HOPE that my nose inches from his when he was cornered in his front lobby in front of several employees helped convince him that those tactics of concealment were not only bad business, but could have long lasting repercussions. I have been vocal here on the Forum about my confidence in the service techs at MOT and the friendliness and helpfulness of others there. But my confidence in the organization was forever shaken by that glaring "lie by omission" of concealing information that was in their possession and would have been fair to disclose. They knew it wasn't going to kill the deal ... they knew from experience with us as customers that we would open our wallet when needed ... and they still let us drive off. One "stand out guy" at MOT was Mike Rodgers, who called me almost daily (unless I called him first) and tried and tried to help us with all the issues. He was my hero. There are outstanding individuals who have my trust at both MOT and FOT, but the trust does not bleed upwards to the guys in charge.
So ... good, bad & ugly ... I think we can discuss who should have done what and speculate about which responsibility belongs where ... BUT, we must never forget that we are essentially talking about Used Car Dealers. High end, fancy, recreational, used cars.
high pressure one that fails and cannot be rebuilt. It is manufactured in Britain and is not readily available and was only used in the design for a few years. No one told us about that, either. BUT ...... even if folks had, we would have still bought the coach and just been aware of the issue and ready to spring into action when the time came.
Here is a story that I have told to people privately, but never on this Forum ....
We bought our coach from MOT and the seller had left it on consignment with a long list of items he wanted addressed while it was on the lot. He intended to use the coach again, if it did not sell. This, we learned from the seller himself, when we met him about 3 months later ... no kidding! MOT's sales department never passed that list on to us and they certainly did not give any of the info to their service department. They just wanted our check and to wave goodbye to us as we went down the road. ALL of the items would have happily been addressed by us in their shop before we left with our new-to-us coach. We weren't gonna change our minds about buying. It took a long, frustrating 4 months to correct stuff. It took about that same time before I was able to corner the CEO of MOT (he ran away from me twice!) and let him understand that his secretive sales tactics caused him to leave money on the table ... because we would have paid to have the sellers list addressed IN HIS SHOP, HAD WE BUT KNOWN. He stuttered and hemmed and hawed and tried to say that was "not how MOT wanted to do business" ... but he never denied anything. I HOPE that my nose inches from his when he was cornered in his front lobby in front of several employees helped convince him that those tactics of concealment were not only bad business, but could have long lasting repercussions. I have been vocal here on the Forum about my confidence in the service techs at MOT and the friendliness and helpfulness of others there. But my confidence in the organization was forever shaken by that glaring "lie by omission" of concealing information that was in their possession and would have been fair to disclose. They knew it wasn't going to kill the deal ... they knew from experience with us as customers that we would open our wallet when needed ... and they still let us drive off. One "stand out guy" at MOT was Mike Rodgers, who called me almost daily (unless I called him first) and tried and tried to help us with all the issues. He was my hero. There are outstanding individuals who have my trust at both MOT and FOT, but the trust does not bleed upwards to the guys in charge.
So ... good, bad & ugly ... I think we can discuss who should have done what and speculate about which responsibility belongs where ... BUT, we must never forget that we are essentially talking about Used Car Dealers. High end, fancy, recreational, used cars.
Thanks Carol for making the same point I am. It is not about lifetime warranties, that is way off point here. It is about what you said whether it is MOT or FOT both did not tell us about problems and in my case and many others a break down that WILL happen with the dry PTO. Just tell me, they had the opportunity twice while I was there and it would have been easily resolved. I think everyone can agree, give us the info.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 27, 2016, 07:24:50 am
I think that FOT or MOT fear that notifications to customers is an opening for liability in fixing the problem. This is strictly as a legal point in a court of law.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: nitehawk on April 27, 2016, 08:18:19 am
Many years ago I created a tool that caused the company I worked for to get a great many repeat customers. We survived a severe recession and actually were ahead on sales. This "tool" would probably benefit MOT and FOT. I used a flip desk calendar (now I am dating myself) and when a customer's machine was shipped I put the name of their contact in my calendar. Once a week for the first month, then once every two weeks for three months, and then once a month for a year I would call my contact in their company. I would ask the customer how the machine was running, any problems they might be having, clarify any issues, and finally, get answers to any questions they might have. Obviously there were issues I couldn't answer but I would make sure the customer got an answer to their questions that same day. You would be amazed at how many times I heard the statement that "we" really cared for AND took care of our customers! Usually followed by a repeat order. Courtesy, caring, and phone service supplying answers to concerned customers will repay a company many times over by the goodwill, customer satisfaction, and repeat business needed to survive.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 27, 2016, 08:50:29 am
These coaches have ... not one but five different electrical systems including a two power plants. Shape shifting cars that have rooms that slide out and retract. Cars that not only drive and have excellent brakes, and redundant brakes at that, but that fill the function of a house except that they are independent houses with sewage, grey water storage, two water systems, a reservoir. These aren't simple devices. There will be problems.
Thanks Carol and Chuck. You do the due diligence, get an inspection, hope the seller tells you everything (never going to happen) and get on with it. Things break or wear out, they weren't built quite right, third party parts fail and are no longer available, caulking fails, leaks happen. Same thing in your house. When it does I figure it out and fix it or get it fixed and move on. I figure life (what is left of mine anyway) is too short to spend much time trying to assign blame or rant about what coulda, shoulda, woulda sort-of-thing. It would be nice if everyone was perfect but they aren't and most aren't going to change just because I think they should. If one place disappoints you go somewhere else. Just because FOT or MOT may not be as forthright and honest as we would like doesn't mean I am going to drive my coach off a cliff in protest. The coach and I are still good friends and will remain so for a long time.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: nitehawk on April 27, 2016, 09:10:18 am
Simpler is better. Know how I know? Our coach has no air bags, no slides, no computers, no aquahot, a totally mechanical engine. Gets us where we want to go, has cost us less than $2,000 in repairs in five years of ownership and 17,000+ miles of travel. It may not ride the best but spends very little if any time in a shop for maintenance & repair. Always amazes me how many problems occur in more sophisticated coaches and how many coach bucks are spent keeping them on the road. Everyone seems to get the coach they are able to maintain financially and we sure lucked out on ours. The "old" style coach is a lot like a Timex watch. It can take a licking and just keeps on ticking/going. Love it. As these coaches get more & more complex they risk having more & more unforeseeable problems. It has almost gotten to the point that a company needs a fortune teller to predict problems and possible failures.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 27, 2016, 09:31:58 am
Nitehawk, first FOT did not need a "fortune teller" with this issue. They knew and that is documented.
Second, PTO's are not a "sophisticated"piece of equipment. They have been in use for many years in all types of vehicles (plows, tow trucks, tractors etc.) way before your coach was built.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Dale Benson on April 27, 2016, 09:55:43 am
I wonder if this discussion has drifted a bit off focus of the original poster's issue. The point may not be so much about the actual mechanical problems as it is about poor customer service and the company leadership's lack of respect for their important customer base. But maybe I'm mistaken.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 27, 2016, 09:59:13 am
Dale I agree and you are not mistaken.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 27, 2016, 11:50:11 am
It is drifting a bit. Let's keep it on topic or start a new one if you want to drift.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John/Pat on April 27, 2016, 12:05:15 pm
I believe that the majority of CEO's think that they are way too important to be dealing with anything but making more money. And if their corporate model does not deal with the employees satisfactorily; how does one expect the CEO's to deal with customers. If the CEO would spend 1 day a month in the service his expertise would increase a hundred fold. Brad is exceptional individual and the CEO working with him would have made $1000's for the company. Even admitting that FT dropped the ball; wold have helped the company. The corporate attorneys and the character of the CEO will determine the direction of any company; good or bad. Wishing Brad the best and continued support.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: esaulten on April 27, 2016, 12:27:31 pm
I think that all of you have valid points in management being involved in customer service and in the long run it benefits the company with satisfied and loyal customers. However not in defense of the company I believe that most of you woefully over estimate the financial condition of the company. I would bet that it doesn't make a huge profit as many of you assume. Their primary investor died last year and one wonders if his wife is as dedicated as he was to the survival of Foretravel. Look at the numbers if they sell 15 IH's a year at a out the door price of $900,000 that would yield only $13,500,000 gross sales. Add cost of producing the coach with 4000 hours in its build, add overhead, support labor and facility. I think that those of you who own or have owned a business would agree that doesn't leave a very big margin of profit. If inventory doesn't move as like now 8-9 units still for sale, to be discounted to sell. Then the prospects of huge yearly profits are very slim. This financial situation doesn't excuse the company from good customer relationships, however it does hamper their ability to help owners after a period of time. The PTO situation should have been handled better, but other situations may differ both in costs and the company obligation to fix.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 27, 2016, 12:41:49 pm
You are correct, the profit margin on coaches is very little and in some cases mayble a loss. Their profit is thru the service department.
They would have made more money if they had told me in '11 and '13 (while there) about the PTO issue. Again, not asking them to cover the entire cost of replacement and it may cost them very little.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tim Fiedler on April 27, 2016, 01:01:49 pm
+1
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 27, 2016, 01:33:21 pm
So , lets assume money is tight , sales are slow . Maybe to the point of real tight . Well that is not what this thread was started for or about . It is HONESTY ---INTEGRITY ---a CAREING ATTITUDE about the customers from the top dog . My thing was never about the money . But---with what I now know , it might change . There is way more to this than I first knew . I had no idea that so many people were treated the same as myself and some worse . The ripple effect from this will tell the story . I do not want the company to fold . However , do I expect to see a attitude change ? Nope , not in the near future . The rut they are in is deep . It was created from within . I expect a load of hot air coming our way from all this with zero mind change in place . A sad kettle of ----- Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on April 27, 2016, 01:44:25 pm
The rut they are in is deep . It was created from within . I expect a load of hot air coming our way from all this with zero mind change in place . A sad kettle of -----
Most of you know, with my business, I sat in that chair upstairs for thirty years, through tough times and fun times. One thing I never forgot was, "You can buy advertising, but you can't buy customer loyalty." ^.^d
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 27, 2016, 01:48:46 pm
I was just reading Esaulten's comment on the late Dane Miller and his wife's investment in FT, and a thought crossed my mind that maybe she does not know what has been happening there and if she did would it have any effect on this investment?? Dane as noted had a great liking for Foretravel so surely this present situation would go against the grain for her. Food for thought I guess. JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 27, 2016, 02:36:20 pm
John, It's hard to tell what the owners know or don't know. Being a privately held company there is no way for the public to tell what Mrs. Miller knows or does not know. Or, if she even goes to required quarterly board meetings of a corporation, LLC, or the like.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John/Pat on April 27, 2016, 03:27:51 pm
IMHO The profit for FT should be in after sales SERVICE. Auto dealers make huge profits from financing and service. One would hope FT will be a viable entity into the future. But management needs to realize that it is the Brad and other rich customers that will make or break them.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 27, 2016, 03:28:45 pm
Guys this is not a topic about market studies or finances if FT.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 27, 2016, 04:08:39 pm
Ok I had to remove a few posts and it is turning from the OP post on the PTO and FT response. I will keep it open if further comments are related to the PTO and FT response to the PTO.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: TheGadgetGuru on April 27, 2016, 09:33:33 pm
I hope this post falls within the topic at hand.
Is it possible to have a "Known Issues" thread on this site? This would be helpful to those such as myself who are considering the purchase of a pre-owned Foretravel.
Like others, I'm not expecting anyone to be reimbursing me for the issues, I would simply like to know what issues need to be addressed for a specific model year so that they can be properly repaired before driving it off the lot.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John Haygarth on April 27, 2016, 10:28:38 pm
Actually that is a very good idea, and Barry "Beam" would be they guy to do it but he does not take an active part anymore. Sad. JohnH
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: craneman on April 27, 2016, 10:53:39 pm
I agree it is a good idea, but would probably need an administrator to keep the " my hinge broke" or " my gauge doesn't work any more" from diluting the main problems.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Michael & Jackie on April 28, 2016, 12:50:48 am
Gadget talks of a list and another earlier post touched on it too
I asked that earlier also in the thread and a year or so ago in another thread.
It seems a limited appetite for such a list for several reasons, some practical and some accuracy. However something of similar help already exists...it is the Forum. If a member is looking at a particular model, ask for opinions, experiences, on the forum. I imagine some replies will be private messages for a variety of good reasons. I cited for an example that Michelle forewarned me on one model year to be aware of the PTO matter, factor into cost....but it was not even implied to not buy it.
I hope such dialogues as herein are not misleading or misunderstood or motives in play and thus some conclude that these are not the coaches to own or buy. They are fine albiet complex machines.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 28, 2016, 07:31:41 am
I agree with Mike, ask/search for answers about a specific coach. You will find out what owners have experienced.
I think a list of known problems gets too general and moves from personal opinion and experience to general opinion attributed to the Forum as a whole. Some years may have had an issue with xyz but not all coaches. If not worded carefully a post could be seen as way too inclusive. Very few have broad knowledge outside of the coaches they have owned so such a list would likely be opinion usually unsupported by detail and facts.
What ever coach someone chooses to get serious about an independent qualified inspection should get done or at a minimum go through the 100 point PDI check list. When we bought ours there were lots of stuff on those that I had no idea what it was or where. Our inspector found a list of things, the owner fixed all of the significant ones. Things like weak lift struts, not.
Be a knowledgable buyer or bring someone who is along. No matter what, every used coach is going to have its own issues that show up for you as you start using it. Know that that will happen, be prepared, have budget money set aside for that, fix it and move on.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 28, 2016, 10:14:24 am
How about a time line showing when and how many various models were produced.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: craneman on April 28, 2016, 10:22:07 am
How about a time line showing when and how many various models were produced.
Foretravel History (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/foretravel_history.html)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on April 28, 2016, 11:13:32 am
When all the smoke clears away from all this , what does it come down to . ? What jumps in my face is simply "CUSTOMER LOYALTY "or in this case the lack of . When top management does not give a shi_P- about the older coaches , or much of any thing else before him it didn't take long for Foretravel owners to get a handle on what has taken place . When you think back as to what got this thread started and to think that a simple first class stamp mailed to each owner of the coaches that were in fact going to have a PTO failure leaving them stranded on the side of the road . Even a phone call would have done the job for me , heck even a post card , not to mention all the times I was in their shop and not one word was ever spoken to me about it . What kind of loyalty is that . ??? How do they expect people to come back and buy another coach ??? Phyllis and I have looked at all new I_Hs that were on the lot for the last 4 years . All that kept things from happening was , the colors or the floor plan --- and now along comes that PTO thing . Yes ,---that did indeed pee on my Wheaties . Just how much is a loyal customer expected to take and still stay loyal ????? Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tom Lang on April 28, 2016, 11:36:37 am
Unfortunately, Brad, I believe you nailed it.
It used to be, The Foretravel of old, cared for repeat Foretravel buyers, both of new and used coaches. Most of us would be looking to Foretravel for our next coach, if it was made.
Fortunately for me, I have a very well built 38' coach from 2003, one of the best years in my opinion. It should last me. I wouldn't buy anything 45' long or on a Freightliner or Spartan chassis so long as this one is healthy. If I ever need to find a replacement, I would be looking at a Foretravel made before around the same era, not at anything they currently make.
What's really sad is that C.M. Fore bought Travco to get Motorcade. This to encourage customers to buy Foretravel after Foretravel. The current management no longer appears to be interested in repeat business, and Motorcade membership is dwindling.
Sad
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Mark... on April 28, 2016, 12:24:28 pm
...When top management does not give a shi_P- about the older coaches , or much of any thing else before him it didn't take long for Foretravel owners to get a handle on what has taken place...
Because we will eventually downsize (years and years from now) our next RV will be a Born Free unless that new management team screws up that brand. We thought in between, our "next" would be another FT but, sadly, that seems less and less likely. One thing we do know, the more we spend the more support and service we expect. Not sure where we may find that...
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 29, 2016, 05:46:15 am
Loved my Born Free and I just sold one and will probably get another soon.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: NancyS on April 29, 2016, 11:39:10 am
Interesting web site, this outfit is selling 2017 FT models and there are still unsold 2015 ones. Foretravel Motorhomes, Foretravel RV, New RVs, Used RVs (http://www.mhsrv.com/foretravel-rv/)
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Darrell LeBeau on April 29, 2016, 11:59:18 am
Looks like the Realm is not selling. No retarder and not a Foretravel chassis, big deal breakers for most Foretravel owners.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Tom Lang on April 29, 2016, 01:02:06 pm
Looks like the Realm is not selling. No retarder and not a Foretravel chassis, big deal breakers for most Foretravel owners.
My point exactly. Any manufacturer can slap a box atop a Spartan chassis and call it a luxury motor coach. Nothing much to differentiate Foretravel from the rest of the pack.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 29, 2016, 07:02:22 pm
Left turn awhile ago. This has become irrelevant.
Title: Re: Am driving my last Foretravel !!!!!
Post by: John S on April 29, 2016, 08:01:05 pm
I think this thread has gone on long enough and I am spending too much time erasing messages.