Had RVMobile Lube over this am to change the oil filters on the M11 and he advised that he unscrewed the M11 drain plug with his fingers. After the oil had drained he stuck his finger up into the pan opening and pulled out some threads. Evidently the pan is a composite material with aluminum threads that a steel plug goes into and it is striped.
No more threads. Last service at Cummins in Mesa,AZ. Overtightened plug I am guessing.
Have called Beau to see if this is something he can tackle in our CG spot. I understand that this has occurred before and FOT does swap out these pans and have them machined in a local shop to re-thread the pan.
Your thoughts, input would be appreciated. :D
I will also contact FOT tomorrow in search of a replacement pan.
Mays guess is that there is a torque requirement for this plug. Does any one know what it is?
There is an insert you can get at Cummins and it can be threaded into the hole. It is a common issue on M11s and it is why I put a drain valve in this coach after it happened last time on my coach.
Scott, had this same thing happen. Gillette, WY Cummings pulled the pan, sent it to a machine shop that welded a steel insert in to the Pan. I then screwed in one of the quarter turn drain mechanism. Problem solved and no one removes the drain plug.
Better than the Cummins insert (which requires you use a wrench to keep the insert from turning and unscrewing from the pan itself) is either Femco or Fumoto valves. Lots of discussion on the forum.
We installed one last year for the same reason. Beau should be familiar with it.
You do not want to know the cost of a new aluminum oil pan, and if you did, I would suggest pricing out multiple sources, including using Cummins Power Club membership for discount.
Is a Fumoto type valve something that I can install? We have a family thing this afternoon, so I won't be able to do further inquiry until this evening. Thanks for your input, everyone!
The valve takes the place of the drain plug. You still have to put the insert in to get threads for it.
The drain plug on the M11 is steel and it mates to threads in the aluminum block.
Aluminum threads are very easy to strip if the rather large plug is not tightened with a torque wrench.
The drain plug threads in the block of my M11 were so badly stripped that on the first oil change I managed to keep the plug in by adding teflon thread tape to the teflon thread tape already there. I was not comfortable with wondering if plug would fall out, and it did drip some, so I decided to tap the hole larger and install a Fumoto drain valve.
I taped the drain hole to 26mm by 1.5 which is 1.0236 inch by 17 tpi. This had little more threads than the original 1 inch by 18 tpi hole. I then ordered a 1 1/8 inch tap and Fumoto valve. I tapped the drain hole to 1 1/8 by 12tpi and obtained perfect threads, so installed the 1 1/8 Fumoto valve. Now the aluminum threads are good for life because there is no need to ever remove the Fumoto valve.
The one concern I had about the drastic tpi change (from 18 to 12) was the strength of the threads. I researched engineering papers on thread strength and found that in aluminum, 12 tpi is stronger than 18 tpi. So why would Cummins use the non-standard 18 tpi rather than the much more common 12 tpi. It is much easier to obtain good threads at 18 tpi than at 12 tpi, particularly when using high speed equipment.
I may still have available for sale: M26 x 1.5 tap and M26 x 1.5 Fumoto drain valve.
I may also have for sale taps for M27 x 2 and 1 1/8 x 12.
Note that at some point in time the oil filter for the M11 changed from ANC threads to metric (my 1996 is ANC) and I suspect that the drain plug was converted to metric at the same time.
I will check my stock and post to this thread later.
Curious how can you weld steel to aluminum?
Sorry to hear, seems very common - we had the same issue. For a short term fix, I used an expandable neoprene rubber 1 1/8 inch plug and safety wired it to each side of the pan bolts so we could get home. There was no leakage or seepage during the 2500 miles home. I will look to see if I can find the specifics on the part. There are 2 types of expandable plugs and I used the brass screw type versus the folding lever type. With the screw type, you have a t post that can be wired very securely across the pan just in case. Are all 320 m11 pans aluminum? Is it possible to use the steel one from Cummins? They quoted $873 for steel and 4 hours shop time at $140. The plug came from Petersen Products Company, pipe plug, plugs, packers, hot tapping (http://www.petersenproducts.com) part number 1432113 PLUG, MECH, T-HANDLE, RUBBER, 1 1/8" DIA. Good luck!
Yes they are all aluminum and the steel one has a sump that hangs down way to far to put on our coaches.
I have never had an issue with the ISM drain plug, it just takes being careful and use some sense. Have changed oil in my coach at least every 5,000 miles for the past 75,000 miles, no issues with anything.
Cheers
As long as the torque of 65 Ft. lbs. isn't exceeded there would be no problems.
You can't weld steel to aluminum. I usually tap the drain hole to a larger size and put in a larger plug or put in a steel insert with green
locktite so it will never come out and use a plug or follow Wyatt's idea which should be a great fix.
Dave, at 125k my plug stripped out at Cummins and they were the last one to change the oil prior to that too. I do not think you can say no problem when it will fail at some point due to the dissimilar metals used.
Some are luckier than others, or more cautious. Maybe
Thanks Folks for your input and support.
My master mechanic son says the metal threads that my lube guy pulled out was a helicoill. and is commonly used to tighten threads. He says that he uses them all of the time. (Never heard of them before.)
Cummins in Mesa, AZ changed the oil the last time and there was no mention of the helicoil core insert.
Beau called me back shortly after my post and he will come and visit in the morning. He feels that he can drill and re-tap the hole, put in a threaded plug that my drain plug will screw into. Nothing new to him.
PITA :)
With Beau on board, it is not a PITA ;)
Scott, a Helicoil is not to tighten threads it is there to put some back in!! Said another way you drill and tap the old hole out to one that will allow it to be tapped to suit the Helicoil and then with a tool you thread the insert into this re-tapped hole and this will bring it back to the original sized threaded hole. You can go bigger with them but it all depends on the amount of material left to support the Helicoil. I used them going back to the 60's when we repaired transmission and gear boxes used on the Napier Deltic Diesel Engines we built in England. They have been around for a long time and are good and easy to do (when you know what you are doing)
JohnH
They work much better in a blind hole rather than a through hole. I have an insert set made by Caterpillar that was used for through holes.
I had the same thing happen to me last year when I changed my oil for the first time. I didn't notice that the threads were stripped until I was putting the plug back in. After hand tightening I put a socket wrench on it and it just kept on turning. I posted on the forum about it and Wyatt responded with the method above. I purchased the tap from him and ordered the fumoto drain valve. All is well and I never have to remove a drain plug again. I just attach a drain hose to the fumoto valve and drain directly into my old oil jugs for a no mess oil change. As Michelle said you DO NOT want to know the price of a new oil pan! Thanks again Wyatt. ^.^d
The idea of a fumoto valve sounds good but doesn't that valve hang down? It's already tight down there. In doing a little research there are instances where the valve was hit by road debris an caosed alot of trouble.
I really appreciate the input on this problem. I would be in big trouble without you guys and gals. :-D
A previous owner of our U320 installed a drain device (don't know the brand) with a small lever to rotates to drain the oil. It seems very secure and doesn't hang down far enough to create a clearance problem. I'm extremely pleased with the system.
Scott,
We have the Compact No-spill drain plug http://www.nospillsystems.com/index.cfm
The compact drain plug is only .030" thicker than the drain plug that was factory installed on our M-11. Said another way it only sticks down .030" further than factory plug. The way it is built if you hit it and you have damage the factory plug would have done the same.
Pamela & Mike
I've had both and I prefer the Femco.
On the M11 there are 'other things' that hang lower anyway. The Femco capped system is a low profile with nothing to catch on.
That's a Femco drain valve.
Cost: Seven weeks ago Risch told me and another owner...new to FT ownership...about the drain plug potential weak spot. The new owner, who bought from an individual, said he planned to service himself, wanted ideas. Risch said be sure to take care with the drain plug, use a torque wrench as a new aluminum pan is about $1400 (installed?).
Told Risch i wanted to be sure to get the Femco drain at next change. Hope damage not already been done but none been reported for past four oil chsnges
Engine Drain Plug Insert (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/engine_drain_plug_insert.html)
Thanks Brett - Called Cummins on the loop in Houston they have all 3 parts in stock. It sounds like he has a plan so we shall see what it is and what develops.
When you get the insert if you apply green locktight to the outside of the insert it will never come out. That way you don't have to use
2 wrenches.
I do have available (in California) for sale: M26 x 1.5 tap ( $50) and M26 x 1.5 drain valve (Fumoto T207N for $42). These M26 x 1.5 items are 1.0236" by 17tpi, however, while the Oil drain plug in my 1996 M11 was 1 inch with 18 tpi, the oil drain plug in a 2001 M11 may be metric.
I also have for sale taps for 1 1/8 x 12 tap ($22), but these are in Canada, so I could not ship until after May 10th when I will be back in Canada.
I have driven 25,000 miles with a Fumoto oil drain valve with a nipple (has N at end of part number), which could be cut off, however, the transmission hangs down lower then the nipple of the drain valve. Sure does simplify changing the oil and the cost of the tap and drain valve is a fraction of a Cummins shop repair.
Thanks Wyatt will keep that in mind.
Pan is pulled, Beau is taking to local shop for machining. He will insert a SS bushing thread it and use the original drain plug. Says that his will never happen again. Decided against the drain valve plug as I don't want it hanging down for possible damage.
(Side Note: Although this drain pan thing is certainly not as consequential/important as Brad's and others PTO issue the problem is still the same. Known problem, poor design implementation, fix is available and not too expensive - but lets wait until it fails and fix it then and charge even more $$$$. ^.^d
I would like to think that we live in a better world than that, but.......I guess I know better.
I wonder what else is lurking around the corner?? :) )
I have issued a formal Customer Complaint to Rocky Mountain Cummins and it will be interesting to see what comes of it.
Scott, which Rocky Mtn shop did you have the oil changed last??
JohnH
Last 2years at the Mesa shop. They have 2 in the Phoenix area. Guess I picked the bad one.
Scott,
Verify that he covered the bottom of the block with plastic or something to keep out dirt, water, insects.......
Doesn't have to be pretty-- couple of black trash bags and some tape would work fine.
Good suggestion Brett. Your comment came in about 15 mins. after Beau left and I am unable to get under there. He could not get a machine shop in this area to do what he wanted to do to the pan so he took it back to Nac and will be done in the am. He said he should be back here by 2/3pm. Rats.. :)
Scott,
If the crank and block have been open (no pan) overnight, I would suggest you go to an auto parts house and get an oil can (pull trigger and it squirts oil). Buy and extra gallon of whatever oil you use. Put a pan under the engine.
Squirt the full GALLON on it to make sure you "rinse" off any dirt, moisture, etc.
Does not make sense to reinstall the pan "trapping" dirt in the engine.
Brett - That sir I can do. Thanks a bunch. I will share that with Beau when he gets back here and have the necessary stuff for him to do the nasty.
Scott the reason for me asking was that I wondered if it was the one I used in Avondale. That's all.
JohnH
Thoughts were asked for so here is one,those of us that use synthetic oil will agree,the synthetic will give you at least double
the mileage of dino oils.This means your threads will last twice as long if your only changing oil half as much.This stripping is the main reason we do our own work,no imbiciles with an impact gun.
If you do not do your own work then the next best thing is watch these guys,this is a problem that could have been avoided.
Also,would not spray oil but varsol,and would tell mr Beau to use anti seize on those oil pans bolts.
TT Beau. His normal process is to spray the open pan area with oil to wash away unwanted stuff. He has a sprayer that attaches to his air compressor that will spray/wash the area. I will check with him about anti seize on pan bolts.
Thanks all. He'll be back in a couple of hours to replace the pan. RV Mobile Lube will be here about 5pm to refill engine with oil.
Done - Oil replaced and ready to go. 5 hours labor + $294.00 Service call charge (back and forth from Nac. 2 times) + parts. = Job well done at a reasonable cost. Would use his services again in a heart beat.
The "machine shop" in Nac would not drill out and thread the hole for him. Something about liability. Sounds like they will not "fix" the Cummins pans anymore.
He picked up the SS insert at Cummins in Houston, brought a drill bit and thread tapper. Completed it in the back of his truck, Cleaned the pan inside and out, used a compressed air sprayer to spray the open engine compartment with Rotella 15 40 and put it all back together. Used penetrating thread lock on insert and non seize on the pan bolts. No leaks. RV Mobile lube arrived about 10 minutes after Beau and his helper left, filled her up. Started engine. No leaks. 1 year guarantee.
Robert at RV Mobile Lube was amazed that the job was done so quickly and well. Robert wanted Beau's contact info so I gave him some cards that Beau left me.
So...........................all in all this was a needless repair. Had Cummins spent the money on the front side and spent $50.00+/- to insert a SS bushing and put in the drain plug we would not have had this discussion. Ain't life grand?
PS: He also adjusted our valves and injectors in Nac at Bernd's last year
For your reference:
Beau Reece - Reece Mobile Service
936-221-2055
Located in Cushing, TX, close to Nac. but "Have truck will travel" ;D
Thanks to all for your contributions.
I find it hard to blame Cummins for a problem that has more to do with proper torque of the drain plug than as a bad design. My 3 977 Caterpillars all had aluminum oil pans and I changed oil every 100 hours on them, rebuilt the engines on them every 10,000 hours and never on any of them did I strip a oil pan. There are thousands of engines out there with aluminum oil pans and steel plugs without having to put inserts in them if the drain plug is torqued properly. There are also a lot of oil pan threads striped at EZ lube etc. Bad help is the difference.
Soooooo.....it's Rocky Mountain Cummins problem?
If they were the only ones ever tightening the drain plug I would say yes. The threads must have been striped before as you said it had a helicoil in it. My guess is if they had used the proper locktite when putting in the helicoil the coil would not have come out when you had it serviced this time and no one would have known it was there except the mechanic that put it in.
These subjects seem so timely.... Last year my International mechanic informed me the oil plug was stripped. MOT supposedly did it last when I bought it. He went back to the shop to get something to fix it. Thanks for posting these inconsequential (or seemingly so) topics. Who would have thought a weak point on an M11 would be an oil plug?
Allison trannys have the same aluminum drain pan / steel drain plug problem, which happened to us, probably caused by a well-known shop failing to do the right thing.
Allison has three remedies: drill-tap-oversize steel plug, longer plug to grasp existing non stripped threads located inside pan well above bottom threads, new pan. We made a temp repair with a regular bolt that was long enough to thread into the good threads further up in pan, followed by drill & tap. Now we are present for every tranny drain and torque wrench always used.
BTW, we installed Femco Compact drains for our generator Isuzu engine & Cummins engine. It takes longer to drain, but we can drain unattended into a large Rubbermaid container and no more striped pan drains.
Update:
As mentioned in another thread. Cummins after numerous emails and telephone calls has agreed to pay the repair bill and we should get a check in the next few days.
Received a call from Cummins Customer Care this AM. He was tracking down why I never received any communication regarding my original emails to Rocky Mountain Cummins as well as Cummins Corporate. It appears that their internal email, customer complaint, customer comment process was working, however, they are going to tweak the process to assure that complaints/comments when required/requested will be tracked to assure that ALL customer complaints/ comments are appropriately addressed and responded to.
In our particular case, I sent numerous emails to Cummins. Those were received by Cummins and routed to the appropriate shop. All of my emails dropped into the Black Hole because the Shop Manager received them and forwarded them to the shop. He did not keep track of these emails and were not answered and were not answered by the shop.
Cummins Customer Care will continue to track to assure that the check has been cut and received.
That's great, another happy ending.
I think the FEMCO is the way to go. Here is a link to check out.
Oil drain plug - Femco® Drain Technology (http://www.femco.com/products/oil-drain-plug/)
We thought about putting in the Fence drain but felt more comfortable with OEM drain plug. Didn't like the idea of it hanging down.
Sorry you are having this problem.
One of the best answers to the torque requirement question, is for everyone else with aluminum drain pans is to install a drainer system that does not require unscrewing the steel drain plug anymore.
Many prefer "Compact" style from Home - No-Spill Systems (http://nospillsystems.com/).
Important to do it now, as most aluminum (M11, etc) drain pans will have a failure.
Really pays to read the Forum to learn how to prevent problems, rather than only using the Forum how to fix problems. This drain pan problem has been discussed many times over the years.
If your going the replacement pan route why not just take your pan to a machine shop to fix,a good shop will fix in one day,Beau
Rivarge should be able to remove and install a pan.
I would retap it to a larger size and put in a no-spill system in. Use the compact ones as
they don't stick down much lower than the standard drain plug.
@ Barry and others,
This thread is over 6 years old and Scott & Carol have long sold this coach. If we want to discuss repairing/patching/fixing this problem lets start another thread.
Mike
Let's not and say we did.
I never understood why you want stripes on your threads.
The drain plug hole in my M11 was had almost no threads. I tapped the drain hole to 1 1/8 by 12tpi and obtained perfect threads, so installed a 1 1/8 Fumoto valve with a nipple. Now the aluminum threads are good for life because there is no need to ever remove the Fumoto valve. The differential sits lower than the bottom of the nipple so the only way to break the valve is to back over something.
The one concern I had about the drastic tpi change (from 18 to 12) was the strength of the threads. I researched engineering papers on thread strength and found that in aluminum, 12 tpi is stronger than 18 tpi.
I have available for sale: M26 x 1.5 tap (1.0236" by 17tpi) and M26 x 1.5 Fumoto drain valve (T207N) which would work for a M11 pan with most of the threads. I also have for sale taps for 1 1/8 x 12.