Could someone explain in detail, maybe some pics, on what exactly is the problem and why it happens and where to look/years affected?
I had it on my slides and the issue was that you could push in on it and it flexed in and out. SO either that or bubbles or blisters on the fiberglass.
Here's what I know, the outer skin of any Foretravel is produced at the factory, it is not Filon. The skin is laid on a big "table" and sprayed with glue,steel frame laid down, foam installed, that surface sprayed, inner paneling laid and pressure applied, allowed to cure. The problem is FT used the wrong glue is some cases and failed to properly clean the steel tube by wiping it down to remove the thin coat of oil left on it from manufacture in some cases, that's why it is hit and miss. Delam happened, the fiberglass became unglued from the steel frame. The fix is to remove anything that moves, is screwed on or screwed through the wall, windows, doors, vents. Remove the end cap trim and belly band trim, front and rear fenders. Now take fiberglass and prop out from coach, clean everything with wire brush. Here's where it get tricky, re-glue, what to use, I will admit there are a bunch of options, don't really know what is best. There are some web sites selling various glues and epoxy, going to do ours this summer will let you know what works.
2000 is the worst, since room R & R is 12+ hours, plus repair. Mine was about 3K at Xtreme, plus 12 hours for MOT to come to Xtreme and do the RR.
Mine was twice as bad as I have two slides but that is really the only issue i had.
Since I don't have slides, and have heard (and seen) many SOB horror stories, would you all STILL buy a coach with slides?
I do not have this issue was curious on the cause and what to look for.
2000 and 2001 slide rooms most commonly affected due to adhesive failure (FT used glue that melted the foam leaving voids). Also occasionally seen in area where dryer vent passes through sidewall
Our 95 GV had minor delamination below the drivers side window. Front cap slides over the coach wall there. James thought hat we might have to remove the affected section and reglass it. Couple of coach bucks to do it.
We parked it next to the house, removed the front cap trim, wedged the front cap away from the body a little and gorilla glued it. With pressure between the house and coach. Worked splendidly 3000 miles later it's solid as a rock. With 10 min work time on glue, too busy for pics.
Slides are a must if you don't like living in a hallway.
We prefer no slides for now. If we were full timing we'd be interested. Until then I'm have to not have the weight and complications.
I would be willing to bet all these black painted coaches and 5th wheels are going to have a big Delam problem in the future. The expansion and contraction has got to be huge as compared to white.
My goal would be to be in nice weather and "live outside".
Yup, I did talk to a member who had a very cool (pun intended) black & red paint job. He said, no matter how nice it looked, the heat build-up because of the black would make him not consider it on a future coach.
Mike have you noticed all RV manufactures paint their products the same, it's almost like there is a committee that tells them how to paint with what colors every year.
Yes. Dark colors look cool and sell, at this moment in time.
By the way, my 2003 has no delamination at this time. I'm hopeful the problem was solved by 2003. I also feel they stopped experimenting on how to do slides andirons 2003 is slides done right.
I'm very happy with one slide, with Windows in each end of the slide, and a slide less bedroom having two big windows.
I brought up that future issue with prospective coach buyers starting in 1984.
And use to walk them over to the next lot to touch a painted coaches sides both in and out of the sun
Since many who post here will refer to coached built during the last century, I will tell you that on the 2007 Nimbus series, there were major problems with the fiberglass used. Today, these coaches have been plagued with crazing. Additionally, on the same year and model, there were failures of where either the front or rear cap met the side body. A small strip was glued to seal these seams but the glue was used sparingly, and not enough to fill in a half inch gap between fiberglass parts. FOT did recognize the problem and began in 2008 fiberglassing those seams together. Therefore, my recommendation is stay away from the 2007 Nimbus year and certainly watch for crazing with dark paint.
Nope, just found out it happened on a 08. It seems when Foretravel cut the opening in the side wall for the slide out they did not re fiberglass the area around where they made the cutout. The just painted the exposed wood. Over time the paint chips away and exposes that wood to moisture and the delam happens, I am talking in these areas around the slide outs only.
It will cost over 30K to fix-3 slides.
If you spend some time at Xtreme you will get quite an education on fiberglass resins, gel coats and adhesives. The 2002 and 2003 adhesive and resins were different and there is just as much delamination (not in the fiberglass layups which is what most composite engineers worry about) but in the adhesives used between the fiberglass and whatever is bonded to it. There was a 2003 FT there when we were there, all five sides of the one slide had adhesive failure. In a great many coaches including FT, the crazing and micro-blisters you see are in the gell coat layer and are made much worse and much more visible when the dark paint is used and especially where there is a high level of color change (black to white). Rance can see this with his experienced eye and point it out. Once you know what to look for you can see it on many coaches. This is not something that can just get painted over because it is in the gel coat. Lighter colors and less of a change from one color area to the next reduces this. I hope I remembered my month of daily lessons correctly.
My cutouts where my slides are still have paint on them (no delamination) no exposed wood. I will call Xtreme on Monday to see if there is a product I can apply (to seal the inside of cutout) to prevent moisture from getting inside the sidewall.
Darrell, Xtreme is the place to go for advice on fiberglass and adhesive issues for your FT coach. Most of them worked there and know them well. Rance is the fiberglass wizard.
Thanks Roger, yeah looks like I am okay so far but want so sort of preventative thing I can do to prevent an expensive repair.
BTW, delamination on older Foretravels (pre 2000) is almost non-existent.
Sure, if one allows a water leak to persist for long enough, that area can delaminate (fiberglass separate from framing).
Brett have seen 3 or 4 GV 's late 80's models with same delam issues as ours in Arizona the past 5 years. These are West Coast coaches not exposed to that much weather. From what I gather the glue used was just old yellow contact cement the kind used to cement Formica to plywood for counter tops.
What areas were delaminated (again talking about the fiberglass "skin" pulling loose from the metal framework)?
Easy to tell early in the morning with dew on the coach, as you should see each metal beam. Also, there will be a bulge and you should be able to push on it and move the sidewall back into its proper plane.
Delam I am referring to is massive, the entire side panel has become de-bonded from the steel frame. Very easy to detect just walk down the side pushing on the skin, if it doesn't move your ok, if it flexes in and out, it's de-bonded. For further info just Google RV delamination repair
When buying two FTs, found that white coach surface temp 99 degrees and dark coach next door was 167 degrees. Then got to looking a painted stripes on coaches. You do not need my IR gun to test, just hold your hand on the two.
That said, while temperature may have some role, perhaps it not on the delam but only the crazing. Either way, you can think of it just in cooling the coach. FOT said it not matter and it what people want
Shot of delam of entire left side 88 GV and rt. front
Just to clarify, if you see the steel beams with dew it means you don't have delam?
Correct. Because of the temperature transfer from the interior, the steel beams will be outlined on many mornings.
If you see a break in the lines where you know there is a beam (shows above/below or in front of/aft of) then the fiberglass has separated from the steel.
Phew, I definitely see mine. I think the tern delamination has two meanings.
From what I have lerned so far is delamination has two forms 1. the entire sidewall separating from the frame or 2. seperation happening from the layers of the sidewall.
I am curious about the later, especially from the rounded corners/edges of the slide outs.
FYI Google Filon siding lawsuit should answer your questions pertaining to the delam of the fiberglass panel, now the delam or de-bonding of the FRP from the steel frame is what I am talking about.
I don't think FT is or has used Filon for exterior sidewalls.
From a composites point of view, delamination is a break between the laminations that make up a fiberglass layup. Gel coat then a chopped glass mat in resin, woven fabrics or unidirectional fiberglass layers in resin, roll out, repeat. If the interlayer stresses exceed the strength of the cured resin it will fracture and a delamination occurs. When the adhesive bond between something (perhaps a steel wall structure and the foam insulation between the frame members) to a fiberglass skin (or wing skin stiffeners bonded to graphite/epoxy aircraft wing skin) this is a bond line failure.
When the adhesive bond between the steel framing or the insulation fails the fiberglass skin feels loose, like there is a bubble behind it (there is, air). You can push it in and it pops back out. This can be a fairly small area or a large one. The fix is reattaching the fibergalss panel to the underlying structure. Most attempts at trying to add or inject new adhesives will fail. Removing the loose panel and doing a wet layup with appropriate resins is usually the best fix,
In some cases water infiltration into a fiberglass laminate will cause the resin to break down and cause a delamination or the bond lines to fail. Again, removing the damaged section and doing a new wet layup is the best fix. This type of delamination is common on the roof new roof penetrations or in side walls near windows, the refrigerator vent, sometimes the dryer vent. Water is the enemy.
This can happen to any fiberglass structure, any motorhome, any Foretravel of any age. You will only get an entire sidewall to debond or have delaminations if every warning sign, every beginning problem, every maintenance has been ignored for a long time.
So just like anything else on your coach, learn what to look for, do an inspection a couple times a year, make sure your seals and caulking especially on the roof are in good shape. If you see a problem, don't panic, don't blame Foretravel, get someone who knows what they are doing to look at and get it fixed sooner than later. If you have some body damage, a crack or something, it is a place for water to get in. Seal it up or better, get it repaired.
Your coach is like a living organism. To keep it healthy, it needs love, respect, care and maintenance, occasionally a bit of surgery, sometimes a part replaced or rebuilt, sometimes a heart tranplant. Unlike a living organism it cannot heal itself, it depends on you for its health and well being. If you get sick are you going to blame your maker? Go off on a rant? Maybe because you are angry at first, but if you want to live you will do what is needed, fix what is needed, be happy with the best possible outcome and get on with life. Same with your coach. It is likely the best one you will ever own. Treat it very well and it returns the favor with every adventure.
Roger
Exactly right Roger! Foretravel DID NOT use Filon for the outside of the walls or roof. Aside from the fact that I asked Rance about it (he told me that it was only used on the basement floor skins and compartment walls/dividers), Filon is color through (usually white). If you cut it, the cut edges are solid white. The Filon used in RV's is usually .065" thick. If you take a cross section of the coach sidewall, such as the Foretravel sandwich that came from my dryer vent hole, you can see the thin white gel coat that is the outside layer. That gel coat is over the translucent brownish/red layer of resin infused with glass fibers and is much thicker than the gel coat layer. Those two are really one composite layer, maybe ⅛" thick or so. On the the other side of the two layers of insulation is a layer of Filon which underlies the ¼" plywood inside wall. So they do use some
IN the wall, but you will never see it unless you cut a hole, remove a window, or remove the wood paneling from the inside of an outside wall.
Don
That may only be true for coaches produced prior to the current owners:
Source: Wow How The Business Model Has Changed (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=5359.msg22066#msg22066)
March 2006 issue of "Manufacturing in Action:"
Weather strip adhesive, good stuff
Trim Cement won't work, it flashes off too fast.
There appears to be a difference in the lay up schedule between Dons 99 and my 97. The layup when we removed the windows did not have the outer fiberglass seen in your core.
On our coach the adhesive that was used in the cap had failed in the windshield area. When we replaced the drivers side windshield they would not guarantee it would not fail. Both pieces were removed and adhesive reapplied and clamped in place. I found the same issue with the door when that window was done. It was not in either case true delamination but separation of skin from frame.
The work to adventure ratio is incredibly one-sided.
Not sure what you mean by that. We spend vastly more time traveling than working on our coach. And most work on it is an adventure anyway.
Are you referring to the 1/2" thick yellow layer in Don's photo? That is not fiberglass, but a different kind of foam. I was told FT did something different in the wall lay up starting in 1998. If I recall it was to improve the thermal properties but I'm really not sure. Anyone else up on this?
Here is a better picture of the sidewall dryer hole plug. The gelcoat is barely visible on the right, because it is very thin in cross section. The dark reddish brown layer next to it is the glass fiber infused substrate and is really one with the gelcoat. Delamination/debonding occurs between the gelcoat/laid-up fiberglass layer and the insulation or steel framing. The apprx. 9/16" layer of brown rigid foam insulation is much denser and harder than the blue styrofoam insulation next to it. I imagine that this harder insulation helps create a more rigid wall structure than the blue styrofoam by itself, but that is just speculation on my part. The blue styrofoam layer is 1" thick. The filon layer next to it is about a sixteenth of inch and the left most luan plywood is a hair under a quarter inch. The plug looks a bit different because I coated the cross section of the plug with some epoxy as test to see if the insulation would melt, before I glued the basement skin back on during my bulkhead repair. Though I replaced most of the blue styrofoam insulation in the basement floor with polyurethane foam insulation (because diesel had melted much of the blue stuff near the fuel tank and in adjacent areas), there was still a few sections that were left that I didn't remove, so I wanted to make sure that the stuff wouldn't melt from the epoxy resin I wanted to use. It did not.
Don
I wonder if the wall material change was to help with the coming painted coaches? And slides?
The coaches had 1 1/2 blue styrofoam r7 since the earth cooled with mostly good results.