Hey guys....can anyone help us right now? We are on the side of the road. I need someone to talk to now if you're available by phone. We were low on fuel and planning to stop, but suddenly things started going weird and lights coming on the dash. We pulled off and exit with a gas station, but got stopped on the ramp. Shut down and tried to restart and now just getting a click sound in the dash by passenger seat. Did we just run out of gas and it has shut us out from restarting? Also the transmission heat light came on but the silverleaf said the trans heat was fine. Ugh...help!
You need min 8-10 gal Diesel in the tank.
Same happened to me once with my former FT. I kept driving, thinking that once the fuel low light comes on .... it never did come on.
It was hard to start, 5 gal did not ... once I had 9-10 gal it started with a lot of pumping. Long fuel lines need to be filed up.
Can you start the generator? If so, you are not out of diesel. The generator will cut off before the engine such that one can hopefully make it to the next gas station (about 1/4 tank). If it is propane generator then of course not applicable.
Even with no fuel, engine should still crank. Are you sure you're not still in gear?
Maybe check battery connections to be sure all of those are still good (thinking about your flashing dash lights = voltage problem?).
Ignition solenoid also comes to mind.
Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12834.msg68411#msg68411)
Finally got a call back from Foretravel Tech Dept. Husband is on phone with them now
My first guess would be electrical. Double-check the connections to the starting batteries. We had a problem last summer and the connections seemed to be tight, but additional tightening solved the problem.
Things to try:
Turn ignition switch to "ON", try the fan switch on dash A/C. If fan blows, then ignition solenoid is OK.
With ignition switch in "ON" position, read voltage on dash volt meter. Should be above 12 volts, closer to 13 volts is normal.
Push BOOST switch to "ON", see if dash volt meter changes reading. If volts are good, try starting engine. If no start, go to next step.
If generator will start, start it. Let it run a few minutes, then try starting engine again, with BOOST switch still on.
If engine starts, leave generator running and boost switch on.. Alternator may have failed, causing low voltage condition in engine start batteries. You can run down the road indefinitely with generator supplying voltage to engine. Get alternator repaired/replaced at earliest opportunity.
Ok...Foretravel had us engage the boost button up front. Never knew what that was and we suddenly got a boost of power enough to start!
See if you threw the alternator belt. Don't know if you have a separate belt on the U300.
Nice response from Foretravel!
Sorry...non mechanical here...where is the alternator located?
That suggests that your chassis batteries are bad/bad connection.
You will still want to verify that the alternator is charging both banks with the engine running.
With engine running, the dash gauge should show 13.5+ VDC-- that indicates that the CHASSIS batteries are charging.
With the engine running the monitor should show 13.5+ VDC-- that indicates that the House batteries are being charged.
Can any U300 (I assume CAT 3176) owners tell Trent where to look for the alternator? I can't help him with that (wrong engine).
Huh....we now have a beep and a stop engine light :/
Trent, I send you my home number on a PM. call me
Hans
Is boost switch still on? If engine start batteries are low, you will have to leave the boost switch on while you drive until the batteries are recharged. If you haven't tried running the generator, crank it up and leave boost switch on. This will recharge the engine start batteries. The beeping and "Stop Engine" light can be triggered by low battery voltage.
Boost is still on and battery is slowly recharging. We are going to get to the FMCA campground in Cincinnati where we can stay and plug in and charge the batteries up and get ahold of the service center first thing in the morning. Good thing to know about the stop engine light being battery related. That makes me feel a little better.
Thank you so so much for your help. We were almost going to have to shell out $400 for an $800 tow. Nothing like being in the moment and finding out your roadside assistance is insufficient. :/
Do not ASSUME that your chassis batteries are charged from shore power unless a previous owner added a means to do that.
From the factory, the chassis battery was ONLY charged from the alternator.
Yes, with boost switch on, the on-board charger will charge the house bank and through the boost switch the chassis batteries will be charged as well.
And 1995 was a transition year. In the back of my mind, I remember thinking that JOR had a Cummins M11 engine in his coach.
you might need a belt or an alternator. It sounds like low voltage and the reason you did not hear anything is there is not enough voltage to crank the engine. Also do not let your fuel get so low. It is not an issue to fill up at half a tank for me. I do it mostly because I want a full tank and because the less fuel you have the hotter it will get in the tank as you are running. Also keep your boost switch on when you plug in. You need to verify that the alternator is running but until then start the generator and that will keep everything charged up if you have the boost on.
Absolutely correct. Now that you mention it, I remember lots of posts about Jor having a "unusual" M11 in his U300. So now we need a M11 owner to help Trent out with alternator location and what kind of belt setup it has.
Yes. Its an M11 that has been modded or something to 425 hp, I think?
Also, Walkerfam7, I'd suggest joining Coachnet just in case you ever have something happen again. They covered our towing when we broke down one time and I was glad we had it.
Chris
And, since you said you will be at the FMCA CG in Cincinnati, check on their towing service.
Going to go on a slight well intended rant for just a sec... If you own one of these beasts and do not know enough about mechanicals to locate an alternator then you better have deep enough pockets to not care about an $800 tow or start educating yourself on the systems.
Cheers
Chris
Yes! JOR just told us this too! Will be looking into it right away.
Keep a close eye on all your engine instruments until you get parked for the night. The "Stop Engine" light can be triggered by low voltage, but of course other things can trigger it also. Pay particular attention to coolant temp, oil pressure and transmission temp. Hopefully, once you have determined the cause of your low voltage condition, and got it rectified, all the other weird symptoms will go away.
How about the fact that we are very quick learners and are thankful to have a group here to help us out? Yes, I wish I knew a lot about semi truck engines and I hope to know a LOT someday, but everyone has to learn sometime. So, yes...I am VERY happy to have friends here who will have helpful comments rather than judge mental ones. And as an aside, my husband's father has a masters degree in mechanical engineering and we could have called him for help, but I thought I would just ask the questions here because you guys know these specific machines more than he does.
All those are A-ok so far. We are arriving at the campground now. Then my hubby is going to make some calls to those of you who pm-ed numbers to help. Thank you all SO much!
You're in the right place, and will always find folks willing to help you here. We've had ours for 4 years now and I'm still learning from and leaning on friends here, who have come to my rescue more than once! Heck, I'm surprised Wolfe10 hasn't blocked my phone number. :D
All part of the adventure.........enjoy the family.
Chris
I did a Google search for "Cincinnati mobile RV service", there were a couple of choices. Maybe an option for you?
Oh...thats good to know! Thank you! I will check it out.
Well, it appears our friends seemed to get it started and got to a CG. Always interested if is was batteries or fuel?
So, in the manual provided us by JOR it states that having a 120V power source and the boost button on will charge BOTH batteries. Does this mean that us being plugged in at the campground should get the engine batteries fully charged up again and not just the house batteries?
If you're at the FMCA campground, we live 10 minutes away. Let me know if you need anything at all, cookies, moral support. I recommend Cummins Bridgeway in Westchester for repairs. Call if u need me 513-484-9846
Cummins: 513-563-6670
Yes, if you're plugged in to shore power, and the Boost switch is on, it should charge both house and engine batteries.
However, I think you all need to figure out the cause of the dead batteries. Alternator not charging? Batteries aged out and no good any more? Not properly charging while in storage (my recent problem)? I think you've been on the road a good while, so if the alternator was working properly you should not have dead batteries. I think I'd start there.
Yes, that is correct - Boost switch "ON", both battery banks are being charged (assuming your battery charger is functioning correctly).
Trent,
Having the boost switch on at the campground does charge the engine start batteries with the house batteries. I consider this a temporary arrangement.
The boost switch on and everything is going well. You leave for a driving tour of the area and a grid failure occurs. If you are gone long enough, both house and engine batteries can be depleted.
For the long term, I have a battery maintainer on the engine batteries to keep them charged and ready to go all the time. The battery maintainer will NOT charge a discharged battery, hence a reason to temporarily use of the boost switch.
If one has been driving for a while with a good alternator, you arrive at the campground with a fully charged engine battery and only need to keep it that way which the battery maintainer does.
Hope this helps.
Oh thank you thank you!!!! I might need some cookies by the end if today!!! Hahaha...we actually just got off the phone with Brett and he suggested we find you on the forum and now we don't have to :) We have landed at FMCA and I must say I think we lucked out because it is FULL because of a convention, but we were able to snag a spot. We were supposed to arrive two hours earlier, but with the coach issues we got in later and had to leave right away to get to a Reds game that we had tickets for. So, hopefully when we get back things will be nice and charged up. I think we are going to get checking things early in the AM. I am hoping we can see something for ourselves if we can locate the alternator. If not, the place you suggested is the place we had already contacted and were going to have the coach towed to and we will just drive it there ourselves.
Trent & Siobhan,
Sounds like you should be okay. Again, I'm available to assist. It's part of being a Foretraveler.
ps: enjoy the Reds game even though this year they suck more than a Rochester Quadrajet carburetor.
Leave the boost on overnight.
I second the idea of a battery maintainer. I ordered one from West Marine and it works well.
I'm in the same boat you are...except you own a coach! I'm still shopping.
Keep us posted as I want to learn along with you.
Maybe this picture of my M-11 will help. Of course it doesn't look nearly so pristine now.
I have also mounted a battery charger/maintainer that stays on attached to engine batteries everywhere I park with boost switch off ..... If alternator is the problem and can't be fixed at your location, running the generator should charge everything on the go with boost switch on.??
David
Great photo! Hard to miss the alternator.
I'd lay pretty good odds the belt is gone on Trent's coach. In fact, I'd bet my paycheck on it! (...been retired since '08).
Knowing the previous owner, quite possible that there is already a means of charging the chassis batteries from shore power. Worth a look/dig through records/phone call.
I don't know...those boys are playing some baseball tonight ;)
SO helpful!!! Thanks for the pic!
I am glad you were able to move of the road safely with her own power and not had to be towed. looks like since I logged in last you were in very good hands here ^.^d I think your problem is going to be somehow related to the alternator, belt, lose cable or old batteries that are not holding charge anymore. This problem over all relativity be easy fix, easy for your pocket or your hands :-)
Foretravel life will go on with many good adventures ahead, enjoy.
HIT IT WITH A HAMMER!!! A tip for the future.
I recently had a similar occurrence where my engine light came on due to the low starting battery voltage and then it would only click when I tried to restart the engine. Fortunately I was able to limp home by using the generator and the boost switch.
As it turned out my alternator was not putting out any DC current so the starting battery's voltage got very low as we drove down the road. I found out that my ground wire at the starting batteries was slightly loose. As the voltage got lower due no alternator power, the slightly loose connection became a major problem and the engine would only click when I tried to start it even with the boost switch on. Fortunately I found the loose battery connection on the side of the road and was able to start the engine on the house batteries.
When we got home I found that we had a FANCY Powerline aftermarket alternator that would cost $1250 to replace. So I removed the alternator, relatively simple job, and found a local alternator shop at the recommendation of the Powerline tech person. The shop disassembled the alternator and found that dust had packed the inside of the brush channel where the brush would not contact the rotor. He cleaned things up, lubricated and reassembled the alternator, cost $30. He told me if it ever happened again "TAP THE ALTERNATOR HOUSING BRISKLY WITH A BRASS OR PLASTIC HAMMER or very gently with a steel hammer. It is likely the vibration would have loosened the dust and got the alternator working again. He also said that the alternator looked brand new inside. There was almost no wear showing on the brushes or bearings. I have 167,000 miles on my coach and probably 60,000 miles on the alternator. It was put in in 2003.
What does JD Stevens call it? Percussive persuasion?
Kent...thanks for this tip. It may come in handy for us because it looks like our alternator belt is just fine. Also, the battery is showing 13.5V on the trimeteric, but the boost has been on all night. I guess the next test is to start her up and turn the boost off and see what happens? We did give the alternator a few taps with a hammer fitted with a rubber cover , so if its a dust issue like yours was, maybe that will solve the problem. We also noticed some corrosion that we missed when we brushed off the battery terminals a few weeks ago and we are gonna clean that off before we start her back up.
To verify the alternator is charging, disconnect from shore power, and turn the boost off. Turn the ignition key just 1 click to on, but don't start. Now read the dash voltmeter. This is your chassis battery voltage with the engine off (no alternator) . Now start the engine and let it run for a minute or so, and read the dash voltmeter again. This is your chassis battery voltage with alternator turning. You should see a noticeable increase in voltage, say 1 to 1.5 volts if your alternator is charging properly. If no increase, then more trouble shooting is required to find out what the problem is.
Ok. I sent JOR a picture and he says its the isolator where we are having all the corrosion and that may be the source of our problem. So, we are going to try to clean it up, but we may have to replace that component altogether. It didn't fare well in the Michigan winter. Poor little southern coach. She just needs some love after all she's been put through :(
We have some clean up to do and are trying to plan our full time lifestyle better for next winter. We are traveling Christian artists and are trying to make more connections in the south so that we can spend the entire winter out of the salt and grit of the northern winters. So, if you guys know of any churches or coffee shops or anything like that in the south where they would welcome in guests for concerts or nights of worship, definitely send them our way! Our website is Trent & Siobhán (http://www.trentandsiobhan.com)
Well, it's a good thing I didn't bet my (nonexistent) paycheck on the belt being broken! That is
good news - it means you don't have a frozen bearing in the alternator, and everything is rotating freely. I hope it turns out to be a simple electrical or mechanical glitch that can be inexpensively corrected. Cleaning and tightening battery terminals and connections is
always a worthwhile endeavor, no matter what else you find during your investigation. Good luck!
PS: In case you haven't discovered them, DeoxIT and CorrosionX are very helpful products when working on battery connections:
DeoxIT #D5S-6 Spray Contact Cleaner and Rejuvenator – RadioShack (http://www.radioshack.com/products/deoxit-d5s-6-spray-contact-cleaner-and-rejuvenator?variant=5717849605)
CorrosionX (http://corrosionxproducts.com/corrosionxpage.htm)
Reference my recent "rescued on FOT lot". Too clean can't happen, as I learned.
If you by any chance have two lighter or power plugs on your dash, if like mine, one shows engine and the other will show house voltages. Buy a simple digital lighter plug voltmeter, or two.
Isolator is not a bad thing to replace, if you want (or have) to try to do it yourself. I replaced ours recently, and my skills are not stellar. Most important bit of advice I received was to make sure you use some sort of tape and mark all the cables before removing them from the old isolator - so that you get them replaced correctly. I also snapped a photo of it before disassembly for reference. Search here for isolator and you can read up on it a bit. Best of luck -
Chris
On edit: I learned that our isolator is in a terrible place (behind and slightly above the driver side rear wheels) because it catches all the road spray. Brett W has a great solution for this (that involves converting the isolator to a manual switch and moving it to the foot of the bed) that may be good for you if you are in this climate often, but I was not bold or smart enough to convert to his type of arrangement - even though it is superior to the factory setup.
Most importantly: DISCONNECT ALL OF THE BATTERY CONNECTIONS, before messing with the isolator and other battery powered devices!
Trent
Lucky for us, JOR has labled everything but the kitchen sink on this rig. Its one of the things we loved about this coach since we were so inexperienced. Lables are invaluable when working with such a complicated machine. Also, to our benefit, he took pictures over every square inch of the coach inside and out and has all of them on file. He has been so helpful to us so many times already. All we have to do is ask a question and he sends of detailed pics of everything we need to know. We couldn't ask for a better former owner of our coach. We have probably wore him out with all of our questions...lol. So, we are already labled and hubby has taken pics before removing connections. Gonna get it all cleaned up and see what we've got. I think we will probably have to replace the isolator and we really do need to relocate it. I don't want to be in that weather again, but it is not at all in a protected area. It is near the rear tire and I'm sure gets covered in salt. If we do visit Trent's parents at all in the winter it would be better if its in a spot where its not so exposed.
Next question is, where would we find a local place to buy a replacement isolator or is it something we can only get online? It would be nice if we could replace it ourselves...
I believe you are still in the Cincinnati area and so there should be at least a few places around who have an isolator in stock. There is a Camping World not terribly far away and they may have what you need--although their prices are generally not the best. You could probably find something at Amazon and might get next-day delivery.
Peter Martin gave you his number and could possibly be of assistance. If necessary you could send me a Personal Message here on the forum. I'm in the Dayton, Ohio area about 60 miles north of Cincinnati.
They are easy to buy and drop into a Napa or O'Riellys etc as all can get you one. I think you need a 3 post 200 amp one and should be around $140 or so. Easy to replace as well just do not let cables touch any metal or each other when changing out. Really easy.
Take care
JohnH
http://www.littelfuse.com/products/battery-management/battery-isolators/diode-battery-isolators.aspx
Info on them that may help.
JohnH
Has the isolator been verified as the problem? Has the alternator been verified as good? Don't want to start replacing parts until the issue is identified.
FWIW, I used liberal amounts of dielectric grease in the isolator area behind the dualies. It's been 7 years since the isolator and all the solenoids/relays were replaced and all is well corrosionwise. Once a year I spray CorrosionX over this area and I have not had any issues with this procedure.
Not yet. We are just wanting to get everything cleaned up first and see where that leaves us when we start up.
Not for the faint of heart, but at least on our 1993 U240, we relocated the electricals from behind the left rear wheel to inside the "electrical compartment" at the foot of the bed. Lots of connections, but don't recall having to cut and splice any.
Yup, still here, Brett, problems zero! b^.^d
"Percussive maintenance"
It doesn't always work, but it is usually easy to try. If you are not too harsh, you are not likely to break something. I've had success "fixing" the electropneumatic valve on the hydraulic accumulator for the retarder, and "fixing" the Freedom 25 inverter/charger. Those devices will likely require replacement, but I was able to defer replacement and "get on the road."
A heavier application of "percussive maintenance" will often "fix" a brake caliper that is stuck and causing a disk to overheat.
If you need to replace the diode isolator, I'd go with a voltage sensitive relay instead. I put a vsr in place of my isolator a couple of years ago and like the results. One improvement is that the house battery charger also charges the chassis batteries.
I still have the original isolator. You can have it if you need one. All I need to do is find it when I get back home this weekend.
Thank you, Tom. That is very kind of you. We are still not sure that the isolator is what we are dealing with. We cleaned everything off yesterday between waves of monsoons hitting Cincinnati and started the coach up without the boost to find that our dash voltmeter as well as the trimetric were still only measuring the start batteries at around 12 to 12.5 :/ The alternator, from the outside, "looks" fine and like its doing its job and we even gave it a dose of "percussive maintenance" hahaha. Not really sure how we would single out the isolator as the culprit.
Anyways, Pete is going to come help us troubleshoot a bit today. We will see if someone more experienced with the coaches will notice something that we have missed.
I can't help feeling that this has something to do with my father in law cleaning our cruddy battery terminals a few weeks ago. Either the fact that they were so yucky meant that they were not going to last much longer, or maybe, when he put it all back together he didn't get something quite right. He is an engineer and often very helpful, but he is getting up there in years and may have unintentionally got something backwards or loose or something. He did spray the terminals with something to prevent corrosion and JOR said he never put that on the terminals...he just kept them really clean. Maybe that stuff is causing issues?
Any more ideas you guys can come up with, just throw them out there. FMCA here told us they have some local repair shops that will come out here to us. Would it be wise to have someone like that check it out if Pete can't help? Or would you guys choose to just bring the coach straight to Cummins?
IMO, if you can get (free) help from anyone familiar with motorhome electrical systems in general, and Foretravel systems in particular, that should be your first choice. Paying a shop to troubleshoot a electrical problem can get real expensive very quickly. You'll be unpleasantly surprised at how fast $100 per hour shop time adds up!
If the coach was working properly before, and after some maintenance work it is malfunctioning, then the logical place to start is by reviewing the recent work. Check all connections for cleanliness and tightness. If you have a electrical schematic for your coach, try to verify all cable routing is correct. The battery cables on our coaches can get pretty complicated - more than one owner has inadvertently misrouted a cable after doing a "clean-up". Pay particular attention to the battery cable connections on the isolator.
If Peter brings a volt-ohm meter with him and knows how to use it then it should be pretty simple to see if the alternator has a reasonable output. If it's not easily diagnosed and your generator is operating and charging your batteries then it should be possible to drive to a repair facility. I would recommend that rather than paying for someone to come to you. Peter has previously mentioned Holman RV and they are located not too far from you and so that would be my recommendation. A Cummins shop may not necessarily be familiar with motorhome electrical systems.
If the alternator has failed then a quick Google search shows an alternator rebuilder not far away in Northern Kentucky. Auto Parts Rebuilder No. Kentucky & Cincinnati, OH (http://www.hamiltonsalternatorsandstarters.com/) 859-740-4064
The alternator is probably a Leece-Neville and so the following links may also be useful: Prestolite / Leece-Neville Distributor Search (http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_buy/distributor_listing.php?country_id=2&cid=2&pid=35)
Prestolite / Leece-Neville Alternators and Starter Motors (http://www.prestolite.com/index-na.php)
Sounds like an electrical issue-- so Cummins would not be my first choice. If you and Peter are not able to diagnose, get a repair guy familiar with coach/12 VDC wiring.
Absolutely first thing is to continue with what you are doing: verifying that all connections at battery, isolator and alternator are clean and tight. Pay particular attention to the small-gauge "sense" wire from isolator or chassis battery to alternator. Small and easy to break.
Then do the troubleshooting with Peter's help:
Shore power disconnected, generator off.
Check and record voltage at chassis battery bank and at house battery bank. 12.7= fully charged battery at rest. Anything above that is surface charge and you need to remove-- couple of lights on for a few minutes should do it). 12.2= 50% discharged battery at rest. This would indicate that your on-board charger is not working properly.
Start engine and bump to high idle (1000 RPM).
Recheck voltage at chassis battery bank and at house battery bank.
You can also do the above checks at the large lugs on the battery isolator, as you have large-gauge wires from each battery bank to the isolator. Only a loose or corroded wire or connection would give different readings between battery and that battery bank's lug on the isolator. Readings at each battery bank should now be 13.5 to 14.2 VDC. If so all is well.
If not, back to the isolator: Check voltage at the center lug (wires are numbered and your wiring diagram will tell you which wire comes from the alternator B+ terminal). Should be 14- 15 VDC (you lose about .7 VDC across the diodes in the isolator between the alternator "in" terminal and the two outer lugs to the two battery banks). If B+ is 14-15, but either battery bank's isolator lug is not reading about .7 VDC lower, the isolator is bad (likely a diode has failed).
You can also CAREFULLY check voltage at the back of the alternator. Probably easiest from inside with bed raised. With engine at 1000 RPM. Locate each of these with engine off, so you know what you are doing when the engine is running:
B+ to ground= 14-15 VDC.
Sense terminal to ground= chassis battery voltage (probably 13.5-14.2).
If you have an excitor/ignition terminal, it will chassis battery voltage when measured to ground.
If sense terminal and excitor/ignition terminal are reading chassis battery voltage, but B+ is not in the 14-15 VDC range, label the wires, tape (actually I use pieces of old bicycle inner tubes) to cover the ends, so no wire ends can touch ground. Remove alternator and take to alternator shop.
Check with your alternator manufacturer for the name of an authorized shop in your area-- that is your best bet.
It's easy for all of us to "Go to the dark side" in troubleshooting, that's why a fresh mind is always welcome. + let us know what kind of cookies he brings! ^.^d
First off, Peter is awesome! We didn't quite figure out the root of the problem, but we are getting closer. We are going to take it into Cummins because he highly recommends it and has a personal relationship with them. Second, thanks for the cookies, Beth!!! Sorry Mike, we would share if you were close by ;) They are some tasty looking chocolate chip cookies!!!!
Trent you might want to twist and wiggle the chassis battery cables. I had a starting problem that was a real pain. Turned out to be a defective positive cable that did not reveal the problem until I removed it. I could take a picture of it. Good luck..
Following our two conversations, did you verify that you have 12+ VDC at both the ign and sense terminals of the alternator with engine running?
If not, the alternator may be fine and sitting there saying "sure, if you want power all you have to do is tell me" (via those two small wires).
I had a similar problem after I had the alternator rebuilt and replaced the isolator. We were on the way to Colorado and after about 3 hrs I noticed the voltage going south. Ran on generator to our destination. I finally ran it down to a self resetting circuit breaker that was stuck in the open position. The circuit breaker was mounted on the firewall left of the isolator. (as you're looking at it from under the bed) I went to a grocery store in South Fork and found one for $3.99. Solved my problem, went from 0 to 14.5 V
I don't have the coach here but I believe it was a 15amp.
Thanx to Brett who is such a great guy to put up with the calls and getting us throught the details of the troubleshoot. Trent & Siobhan are wonderfull and have a full slate of 5 boys to contend with. But honestly I never knew they were around. Great job bringing up the gang of boys. Surely there will be lots more fun stuff down the road than putting up with coach issues.
JOR's coach (now Trent & Siobhan's) is trully one of the most elegant 1995 U300's around...the envy of the campground.
In summary:
Start batteries are okay but are 8 year old Optima Red Tops (3) with 12.6 to 12.7 VDC steady state. May need to replace these sooner rather than later.
The dash showed good alternator voltage although I could not get clear readings at the alternator lugs. Thnx Brett for the education of these 4 pole alternators.
Boost circuit tested out just fine as did the converter/charger.
House battery banks were in good state of charge with good terminal contact. 12.8VDC steady state. 13.8 with charger
M11 fires up beautifully with just coach batteries which were charged with boost circuit overnight.
It appears the alternator may be in need of attention due to the low volt condition encountered on the road. I suggested to Trent that Cummins Bridgeway which replaced my alternator a few years back may diagnose the alternator more thoroughly. Mine is a Leece Neville, Trent's coach has a Herr Branded unit.
Called Cummins and they agreed to look at the unit this afternoon and go from there.
I really wish I was more mechanically inclined with this kinda stuff, but with Brett's assistance on the phone in a noisy engine compartment area we did the best we could. Many thanks again, Brett.
If voltage readings are not what I posted above, and alternator is a Hehr, here is the U.S. distributor (Ft Worth, TX). BUT, the cleaning and tightening of all connections may have fixed it. Said another way, a loose or corroded connection can be fixed. But doubt a bad alternator will suddenly start "acting right".
HDPSI POWERLINE Alternators (http://www.hdpsi.com/Alternators.htm)
Troubleshooting guides: Untitled Document (http://www.hdpsi.com/Support.htm)
And, they could certainly tell you who their authorized dealer is in your area.
HD Power Solutions Inc Contact Information
4616 Fairlane Avenue
Fort Worth, TX 76119
Phone: 817-535-0284
Fax: 817-531-2755
Email: sales@hdpsi.co
If Peter says Cummins has a guy savvy on 4 connector RV alternators with isolators, go for it. If not THAT is who you are looking for.
Last year my mechanic determined the bearings were going out on both my alternator and A/C compressor. He sent them out to be rebuilt and they have worked flawlessly since. the price was very reasonable. I'm in the Los Angeles area, and I can ask where he sent them if anyone needs to know. This is better than having a rebuilt alternator installed and then finding it is not the right model.
Tom,
I agree-- in fact at 100k miles, I pull the alternator and have it overhauled by a dealer recommended by the alternator manufacturer.
New bearings and brushes= piece of mind.
Remember, alternators are in a MUCH hotter location on a DP than in the front of a front engine truck AND air flow is backwards.
Can I suggest that this thread title be changed to "Alternator Problem" to aid in future searches? There is a lot of good alternator info in here.
Ok...so here's where we are at with the Cummins service center...they said they *think* its the alternator and are trying to locate a replacement. We are a bit uncomfortable with the *think* part of this because if its not the alternator, then we have spent a whole lot of money that we really can't afford to spend for no reason. We would much rather go a more inexpensive route of having it rebuilt or something. If that is an option, our next problem would be the 7 hour drive from here back to Michigan. Would it be reasonable to drive all the way back there running the generator and the boost the whole way? Then once we get back we would have to pull the alternator and ship it out somewhere which leaves us immobile for how long? We usually stay at a church we are working for and run every 5 days or so over to Camping World to dump, but we wouldn't be able to get there without an alternator, which leaves us staying at a campground. The last campground that we stayed at in the area cost us $1000 for the month. :/ I know owning a motorhome isn't always a budget friendly way of living, but we try to keep costs as low as possible.
I believe you can run indefinitely with no alternator so long as the generator and charger are keeping the batteries charged and the boost switch is on. Just remember to turn off the boost switch when stopped so a tripped breaker won't result in all batteries going dead at the same time.
A good mechanic should know where to send the alternator to be rebuilt, but I would go for a second opinion before doing that. It might still be a simple wiring issue.
Ok, running home on boost with generator running will be fine. Same with short trips to CW on genny and boost. Should be able to diagnose Alternator failure vs. "I think"
if you do run to CW for dumping with alternator removed, make sure the wires are well taped and securely out of the way of any potential moving parts/vibrations.
When our alternator failed on the way back from Texas I found that the cruise would cut out when the voltage of the batteries dropped to about 10.5V. I would then start the generator and run it until voltage read around 13V, then shut it off until voltage dropped again. Repeated the cycle quite a few times but made it home. Used the cruise "dropout" to monitor the batteries.
We drove almost 450 miles this way, but tried to and succeeded in not driving at night, as headlight usage created too much of a drain too quickly.
Again, you need a shop that is familiar with 4 wire RV alternators with diode based isolators. Ain't rocket science, but COMPLETELY different than OTR trucks.
From the two calls I got from the tech at Cummins, he was not familiar with this system and I am not sure he read the troubleshooting guide in my link above. Have they run through the tests I posted above. Should be no guessing on this.
And, call your alternator manufacturer in Ft Worth (I posted info above) for their recommendation of a rebuild shop in your area. No need for a new one unless the rebuild shops declares it beyond repair.
And, as long as the bearings in the alternator are OK, leave all the wires connected, generator running and boost on. For as long as you like.
Yes, Brett. This is the exact conclusion we have come to. We are going to pay the nearly $300 bill ($135/hr) to drive away...lol. We are waiting on HDPSI to open. We have been calling already, but they aren't open yet and I can't find any hours posted anywhere, so we will just keep calling until we get someone.
From the phone calls you had with them, did it seem that it WAS, in fact, the alternator that was malfunctioning or could it still be a possibility that it is a sensor connection that isn't functioning properly?
I think what was confusing the techs here is that we have a different alternator than what is found in the wiring diagrams that we have. I'm not sure if the original was replaced, or if, like the engine itself, it had a slightly unique alternator than what was supposed to be standard on this coach. Maybe it has to do with the horsepower upgrade that was done on the engine? I have no idea....
Based on my recent Alternator experience, my alternator is also a Hehr Powerline, you will get great technical help. Ask for Rodney. Hehr sold their alternator group about 7 years ago. It is now just Powerline and the number I called is 817-535-0284.
Remember, the difference in cost of replacing my alternator vs repairing it was well over $1000.
Now knowing you also have a Hehr Powerline, your problem may be the same as I had. If the brush channels are just dirty the brush could have lost contact with the rotor and through your tinkering they may now be working. You might be able to drive for many more miles before the alternator acts up again. That doesn't mean you should ignore the event but you can put off repair until you get to a competent repair shop. A good one in Oklahoma is Big Cabin Diesel repair on I-44 in North Eastern, OK. There is also a campground there. I doubt that you will have bearing problems. The repair shop said the bearings in my Powerline were the best bearings on the market and showed no wear whatsoever. The biggest problem you may find is finding an alternator repair shop. Even Powerline has very few dealers and did not have a usable referral in our part of Oklahoma. If you will travel back home through OK, Pryor Auto Electric, in Pryor Oklahoma is the shop that fixed mine and is now familiar with our Powerline Alternator. They aren't fast but they are very cheap, $30 for cleaning my alternator.
A Coach Buck a month? Wow, must have been a very plush campground! :( Let us know what's happening, all the best, M
It was a KOA...not exactly what I would call plush, but it was literally the only campground in the area that wasn't closed for the winter. :/
So....here's where we landed today...
I'm attaching a picture of the report from Cummins. If they tested the wiring correctly it sounds like it is the alternator that is having issues. But....we don't want to replace. Its a good alternator that can be serviced and we would rather have the same alternator back in the rig. So, we called Powerline. The only local place that deals with repair of Powerline alternators no longer has a service center. They would repair the alternator there, but we would have to remove it and bring it to them. Don't really have the tools to be doing that here.
So, we are going to drive back to MI on generator and boost and remove the alternator once we are settled up there, probably Monday, and send it in to Powerline in Texas and have them repair it for $95 plus parts. Hopefully that will solve our issues.
Thanks to all who have helped us try to solve the mystery. Don't know where we would be without you. Probably on the side of the road broken down still...
Hopefully we will get to pay the help forward someday when we have had many years experience!
Yup, if voltage on sense wire (should be same as chassis battery voltage) AND, repeat AND 12+ VDC on IGN terminal, with engine running then indeed pull the alternator and have it rebuilt.
When your tech last called me, he had not traces the IGN wire/verified voltage. Assume this was done before alternator declared DOA.
Brett,
Thanks again. To make this crystal clear for us non-tech folks, the IGN and sense wire are the two small terminals between the alternator + terminal and the other large lug on the opposite side?
Correct. The 4 terminals on a 4 wire alternator are:
B+= large red to center lug of battery isolator
Ground= to chassis ground-- usually black
Sense wire (one of the two small terminals)= small gauge wire to chassis battery-- can go to chassis battery terminal of isolator, starter, or chassis battery, as all these read exactly the same (assuming connections are clean and tight).
IGN (the other small terminal) wired to an "ignition hot" source. It has 12+ VDC when the ignition is on. NOTE: not present on all alternators.
Note: not all alternators are 4 wire.
At this point I would probe IGN and SENSE at the alternator myself with a voltmeter before having blind faith in the bad alternator diagnosis.
Brett, I do hope they did determine that, but there is no record of it in their notes :/ The wiring diagram we have only shows 3 wires, so that may be where they were confused. Wish you were here and part of these FMCA meetings they have going on this week. I'm sure you would have it figured out real fast.
We may even run through the troubleshooting steps in that document from Powerline ourselves when we get to Michigan to see what we come up with before removing the alternator...
Thanks Peter and Brett for all of your knowledge. Should I change the title of the thread to "Alternator trouble" or is that something the mods need to do? There is a lot of good info here, I think.
Can you take a picture of the alternator, showing the 3 or 4 terminals? Perhaps a closeup of the model number?
You have an invaluable resource here on his forum, and we all want to help.
If you (or anyone in your group of friends) know a good "shade-tree mechanic" with good troubleshooting skills that would be an excellent idea. From what you've told us there's been a lack of high-quality troubleshooting so far.
Tom, I am sure I can get a picture posted on here in just a bit. Right now we have two little ones napping in our bed right over the alternator...lol.
Both Trent, myself and Cummins observed the same voltage results. The terminals on the back of the alternator have corrosion. Perhaps a good cleaning could make the reading s abit clearer.
Not to hijack OP thread, a good reminder for all of us to take a close up look at the connections that aren't so easily seen on the back of the alternator. I'll be cleaning mine for sure... 4 wire.
Anyone know what the smaller empty studs above are for?
Corrosion in that area is a problem. When I had the alternator replaced several years back I coated the terminals with dielectric grease and after all that time the terminals look like the day they were installed.
Doug,
If you had a standard alternator like on a class 8 truck your diode trio would be hooked up here. They are long through bolts that go completely through the brush holder and your pos. and neg. rectifier connect to them inside. They are also there for test points.
Pamela & Mike
Any competent alternator shop can repair that powerline. There is one here near me, complete rebuild, brushes, bearings etc was about 100 bucks five years ago. Look local before you pay shipping charges both ways to Texas.
JMHO
Gary B
Ok. We are getting ready to do some troubleshooting before we just give up on the alternator and pull it to be repaired. Trent's dad has pulled out his oscilloscope for what reasons I have no idea, but he's the engineer, not me. Lol. Here is the picture that I promised I would post so you guys can see the particular alternator we are working with.
Looks like the original alternator. It will be easy to check with a multimeter if it is producing power, either at the alternator or at your isolator. At 21 years old, I wouldn't be surprised if it is dead, mine died about 4 years ago. Charging the large RV battery banks is pretty rough on our alternators.
I'm really not certain why an oscilloscope would be required. Basic troubleshooting with a volt-ohm meter should be sufficient.
I would recommend removing, cleaning and re-connecting each electrical connection one at a time, making sure the new connections are clean and tight. Then I would check voltages to see if the batteries are being charged. If they are not, then I would label each connection and remove the alternator.
I would then go to a local shop to have it checked and possibly rebuilt locally. I have the impression you're in the Grand Rapids area. If so, then I found a shop ADEMA Electric (http://ademaelectric.com/) that looks as if it should be able to handle that. If you have to ship it for repair then the shipping charges could be pretty high, and so I personally would go with a reputable local shop if possible.
David, I think that is exactly where we are at on this too. I have already been looking up local shops as well... That does look like a good one that I had not seen yet. I will check them out.
Is there not a mobile "sparky" that will come to your site? I thought your alt wiring was a little different than most, but if you've got the specs could be cheaper in the long run to have someone come out.
If you take the alternator to any shop, for any reason, be sure you make them understand that your vehicle has 2 separate battery banks and a diode-based battery isolator. For some reason (that I don't understand) this is very confusing to shops that usually only deal with trucks. You don't want them making any modifications to the alternator - you just want it restored to original operating condition. More than one Foretravel alternator has been screwed up by well-meaning but clueless rebuilders.
Excellent point! I should have emphasized it, and I didn't. I'm thankful you did!!
Chuck...thanks for that tip! That is good info...don't want anyone ruining the alternator...
The photo posted by the walkers does not look like a Series 25 Powerline (see diagram in manual linked in reply #106 above).
Their photo shows a simple "self-exciting" alternator hookup. There is no "IGN" (hot with ignition on) wire (the small jumper wire going under the cover plate may provide that function). The small gauge wire going to the "Voltage Sensing Terminal" should read "Start Battery" voltage at all times. The big cable on the left is ground (-). The big output cable on the right goes to the center post on the isolator. That's all there is to it...
It should take about 5 minutes to check the operation of this alternator, using a simple multimeter.
Check (-) ground cable is good. Check voltage on "Sense" wire is the same voltage as the start battery positive (+) terminal. With the engine off, the big (+) cable on the right should show the same voltage as the center post on the isolator (see note below). When the engine is started, the voltage on the big (+) cable on the right should jump up to around 14 volts. If it does, the alternator is working.
Note: With the engine off, you may actually read some voltage on the center post of the isolator. In a perfect world, under these conditions, a diode based isolator should show zero voltage on the center post. If any is present, it is attributed to "leakage backwards through the diodes". Some will say this means the isolator is faulty...others will say this is "phantom" voltage and does not affect the functioning of the isolator. I'm in the second camp, because this is how my isolator behaves. Since it ALSO does its job just fine, I don't worry about it. I didn't even want to mention this whole "Leaky Diode" anomaly, to avoid confusing the present issue. But somebody will probably bring it up, so...I did.
Their isolator, alternator and regulator should be the same as mine if it has not been modified by a PO.
I have a 4 post isolator.
here are a few pics of mine and a couple off of the internet for reference.
Remove the regulator and check brush contacts if you have not already done so.
When my alternator quit it was only the regulator ....... alternator was fine.... repaired with new regulator for less than $200
If all else fails................
Here is one that might work...... our engines are different so maybe not.......?
Poweline High Performance Alternator 14V 10 401 Heavy Duty Lightly Used | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Poweline-High-Performance-Alternator-14V-10-401-Heavy-Duty-lightly-used-/152088527047)
I just had a similar problem with my alternator coming back from Foretravel in Texas. I was able to run during the day without lights with my generator running keeping the charge at 12 without any issues, I had a new regulator put in and works great now. If I had included daytime running lights, the generator would not have been enough to keep the voltage at 12 to get home without incident.
I think your AC power supply (10 Kw generator) was probably more than sufficient, but perhaps your battery charger, or inverter/charger, was not up to the task? I don't know what size charger was fitted to the '95 U320...
Chuck, Jeannie,
I did run the lights with the generator on, however, the voltage dropped to 9-10 so I did not want to risk damaging the engine with low voltage. The new regulator installed was only 87.00 dollars, beats the price of a new one! I do have a 10 Kw and overall power was not the issue in this circumstance. I will look into the inverter though as you suggest, thank you.
What inverter/charger do you have? If SET PROPERLY (not a low setting on power share/power save) operating properly AND your boost switch is working properly (so that the inverter/charger charges the house battery bank and the boost switch then allow that to charge the chassis battery) your inverter/charger should be well able to provide needed 12 VDC unless you run all your 12 VDC stuff. So clearly do NOT run the dash HVAC fan and run lights and other things as .
Hi Brett,
I will look to see what I have tomorrow after work and get back to you with the details. I will also check the forum after knowing what inverter I have to find out about power settings which I thought were set at the factory until you mentioned it, good to know!
Thank you
rob
Hello Brett,
I hope your trip has been enjoyable thus far! I have been somewhat busy of late and just got back to look at the inverter. It says Freedom on it, however, you said to check settings and I do not see a place on this unit for adjustment? Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place. Are the settings for power located in the generator compartment? I am going back up there today and will look around. I did not find to much on this subject online. Thank you.
rob
Rob,
Not knowing which Freedom(if it is original to your '95) unit you have or the age will depend on what to look for. On some interior wall or in a cabinet you should have a Link 2000 system that gives you all your battery and converter/inverter info along with your charge settings. Here is a link to the manual for our unit yours may look different or be newer but this is what you are looking for.
http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Discontinued-Products/Link2000-445-0198-98-01_rev-1(Vendor).pdf
Pamela & Mike
The settings are on the remote panel in the coach, depending on which remote you have will dictate how to adjust it. If it has the newer remote panel that is set up from the front switches, but if the older there are switches at the rear of the remote panel
There is so much good information in this thread. I've learned a lot reading how to test the alternator, batteries, and there are so many possible trouble spots. Thank you all for the info.
We got our reworked Powerline alternator back today and it literally looks brand new! Threw that puppy in and our batteries charged right up! Yay! Here are a couple of pictures of the new old alternator. They sandblasted it and everything.
And another pic of the alternator installed...looks so clean and new!
We ended up taking it to Adema Alternator and Starter in Coopersville, MI for anyone in the Grand Rapids area who might ever be searching this thread. They did a fantastic job.
Good News! Everybody likes a story with a happy ending!
I am putting in a new 240 amp Delco. Throwing it in doesn't exactly describe how it went for this guy with only one fully functional shoulder. But in it went. Surprisingly the 240 amp Delco weighs less than the 160 amp Leece Neville. I am glad it went well and help the was available. Motor on.
Well, "threw it in" was definitely my (Siobhan) perspective as I did nothing at all...lol. Well, I did take a couple pictures 😅
Anyways, it didn't seem to take them too long to get the alternator reinstalled. We had labeled everything before it was removed, so that was really helpful.
So, it seems like somehow we have a new problem that had suddenly appeared,now that we have the alternator installed. Maybe its related somehow, but it doesn't seem like it should be. We drove the rig about 5 miles from my inlaws' house to my sister inlaw's house to wash it, no problem at all. We did some washing, mostly on the roof because we got attacked by oak tree pollen junk last week at our campground. Then, when we started up the rig to go the audible alarm and the ABS light wouldn't go off. We drove that way, very carefully another 5 miles or less back to our campground. Would something with the alternator cause this new issue or is this just another failure we are having that I need to start a new thread for?
Sorry to hear of the situation and pleased to see the shine on the "new" alternator. This might be a good thread to split and rename in order to get some ideas going. I drive the same year coach but I haven't had this situation...yet. Good Luck!
From several years ago ....
My ABS light is on - Do I stlll have air disk braking?
Yes, when the ABS light on the dash is illuminated, the vehicle has all regular braking capabilities. Only the anti-brake skid feature is not operational. If your light stays on, contact a qualified service professional for repair as soon as possible.
Here is some diagnostic ideas from Michelle...
ABS dash Brake Light (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15746.msg97448#msg97448)
Roger, that's great link. Its late, so I will have to try and check for the blink codes tomorrow, but I looked through the list of them and one is to check for high voltage. My father in law thinks its good that our trimetric (as well as his voltmeter) was reading the batteries at 14.2-14.4. As long as we have had this coach they've always hung out around 13.5. I wonder if our alternator is working too well now and overcharging the batteries. My husband said that they replaced some kind of air intake with a bigger one to allow more air in (even though we told him we wanted it repaired exactly as it was) so it would perform better. I don't know...I think my first check in the morning will be to make sure that our batteries haven't boiled over :/
Any thought from anyone? Is 14.2-14.4 ok?
Oh, and just for reference, our dash meter is only showing 13V, but it always seems to be about 1.5V less than what we get on the trimetric. Is the dash meter faulty or is it reading something different than what the trimetric reads?
Neither the dash meter nor Trimetric will give a good a measurement as a good DMM connected directly to the battery posts.
Tom...my father in law's DMM was getting the same measurement as the trimetric...14.3-14.4. Is that too high?
What kind of battery?
Typically, 13.5 is too low. 13.8-14.2 about right. 14.4 might be just a tad high. But pretty close to right.
Where is the alternator sensing the voltage?
Looks as if they did great work for you. It's really good to hear that you have your alternator working and ready to hit the road again. Hope you can sort out the ABS light issue.
Mr. Wolfe....the "monitor" you mention as far as house batteries are concerned....where is this monitor usually located? Thanks.
I wouldn't be overly concerned about the reading on the dash voltage meter. On our coach it's very dependent on things such as whether or not the headlights are on. The system voltage doesn't change significantly when the headlights are on, but the dash voltage meter reads a volt or so lower when they are on.
As has already been mentioned, the accurate measurement of voltage at the batteries is at the actual battery terminals.
On our 95 the dash voltmeter is as D.J. says..... fluctuates between just below 12 to about 14 depending on the various loads at the time. Headlights, Aux lights, devices plugged in the the 12v power outlets and even the inverter / charger. It has always checked good at the batteries though so as long as you arent dropping much below the 12v on the meter..... probably OK...
The location may vary from coach to coach, and the "monitor" itself may vary from coach to coach, but it's likely that there are one or more voltage (and perhaps other parameters) monitors somewhere in (or near) the kitchen area. The monitor(s) probably have switches (or buttons) to select different parameters. If you don't have documentation for how to use whatever monitor(s) you have, then you can probably find the information online.