I have a question to those who have gone this way before me. When I went to dump tanks 2 days ago, had an unpleasant surprise when I removed the outer cap to hook up the slinky. Only liquid, but evidently the valve didn't close quite all the way and let in leakage. It filled the black pipes, but didn't seem to leak any after draining a gallon or so. Cleaned the mess, hooked up the slinky, pulled the valve handle and nothing. Didn't have much resistance on the handle like it always had before.
When Kent Speers stopped by, we looked at it, he said the handle might have unscrewed from the valve, but would need to remove the top panel to look inside. I dismantled the top panel, except for disconnecting the water pump & water fill switches, and moved it to the side. Tight fit to get my big head in. The valve sticks all the way to the panel so I couldn't see any connection to the handle. It is apparently inside the valve assembly.
Now the question, Is there enough flexibility in the lower panel to pull out the panel and look/work on the valve? The exterior water faucet and the main electrical plug in is mounted on this wall. I also have the water fill hose, black tank flush valve and the grey tank handle coming through this panel. I have a feeling that the entire valve may need to be replaced, but not sure. If I do this, I am tempted to replace both black and grey valve's and possibly add the 3rd valve for good measure.
If the water faucet needs to be removed, any guess on the possibility of shut off valves for this or will I need to drain the tanks? I've looked, but haven't seen any that look like the right ones. The RV supply here isn't open till Monday and there are plenty of flushing facilities here at the park, so at least it isn't a desperate situation ^.^d
Thanks in advance,
Larry Warren
Larry, you can shut off the hot and cold water at the manoblock. There's a shutoff valve for every faucet in the coach
Larry,
If I remember correctly, there is a set screw on top of the slide valve that secures that end of the cable. Chances are however, that it came loose because the valve is getting sticky. If the cable pull part is okay, you can replace the valve with the regular Valterra assembly by mixing and matching the parts. That is what I did when I put new valves in. Not a pleasant (or clean!) job, but the hardest part is dealing with the panel and all the "stuff" hanging from it. As regards the lower panel with the faucet, does your coach have the Manibloc assembly son the curbside of the coach? If so, there should be a shut off for both the cold and hot feeds to this faucet. I am guessing not, or you would have already seen that. If not, there should be a shut off from the tank to the pump, though it may take a long arm to reach it.
Don
Larry,
If you disconnect any water lines to remove the panels for access be sure to use new seals/washers on reassembly.
The old seals will probably leak and you don't want that behind the panel.
Probably no manibloc on a '96. If your pull handle goes directly to the valve blade then the plastic has probably broken and the valve will have to be replaced. Nothing a contortionist can't do easily. water tank doesn't need to be drained but if possible do drain the black and gray tanks. Good luck!
Larry, I am sure it is same as what was on my coach so look at these pics. One shows the lock nut that needs to be undone so you can pull the handle etc out of panel (if you need too) and the other shows that you must remove the 2 top bolts thru valve to remove the "cover" that holds (clamps) the outer cable sheath so you can get to that setscrew to tighten once the cable is back into hole in valve shaft. You may be able to just loosen the two top screws and remove the 2 bolts as mentioned and slide the whole cover away to get to set screw.
Hope these help.
JohnH
Thanks all for the replies. There isn't a manibloc so I can't shut off the water there :'( The only reason I wondered about the water tank was to disconnect the faucett . Thanks John D for reminding me about new washers/seals. I probably wouldn't have thought about that, till it was too late. As far as a cable goes, I haven't seen anything but the steel rod, I assume the cable is located within the valve assembly. John H, thanks for the pictures. From what I can see, my valves are somewhat different. I don't have the open frame which the rod passes thru. It appears to be solid all the way up to the valve body.
If I get the lower panel off and I can't open the valve, any suggestions on how to get the valve open for dumping without looking like Robin Williams in RV> :headwall:
As always, thanks in advance for all the help and advice.
Larry Warren
Larry, I think you will find that the set up is as I show as this seems to have been the method used by Valterra for a while and ours is a 2000 unit.
Once you have the panel off you will be able to see what needs to be done as they are very simple.
JohnH
On ours the black tank ABS black pipe runs toward street side, makes a 90 degree turn and then goes through common drain blade valve that is sandwiched between two ABS flanges with 4 bolts and nuts. Drain valve is right against back of bottom panel. We did not have the full tank problem, but we changed drain valve without removing or loosening lower panel. We permanently removed upper panel, so we could reach in (with tight difficulty) and remove 4 bolts pull out valve and put in a new one.
We did not remove electric or faucet or water lines.
Can't help with how to pull a blade, but assume you may be able to safely put an access hole in the flat part of the valve and try to reach in to pull blade. No sewage will be in the flat part. Googleing may show how others have resolved this problem.
Some motorhomes do not have the drain pull handle rod directly connected to valve because valve is in an awkward position. These use a cable connected to handle and valve. Our style valve is the most common and do not have any cables.
Larry, if the rod has pulled out of the valve,get a long shank drill bit either 1/8 or 3/16 drill down the center of the blade where the rod was, install a long wood screw and open the valve, lower coach on driver side and raise on passenger side,flush tank with plenty of water,replace both valves at the same time.
I just changed the black water dump valve on my 96' U320 last week---- it's a crappy job--- but you can do it without removing the bottom panel. The black pipe was hard plumbed and there was not enough room to replace the valve and rubber seals over the flanges without risk of breaking the tank connections, so I cut out a short section of the 3" drain pipe downstream of the valve (between the black water valve and the grey water piping) . I then used a 3" rubber clamp on drain pipe coupler from Home Depot to couple the ends. This allows you to slide the valve flanges about 2" apart to install the gaskets and valve into the flanges and then slide the flanges back together before clamping the coupler. I have used these couplers many times and they work well and last for many years. Sure made the job a lot easier. On the 96' model, the valve is mounted close to the lower panel but does have a short extension (about 1 1/2") on the operating shaft. You will have to remove this and add it to your new valve operating handle.
It's hard to get to, frustrating, and time consuming, but it can be done.
Barry, I believe that you and I have a very similar layout. What you describe sounds nearly identical. I have the water fill connection directly above the waste valve, so it hinders my view somewhat. I will remove the upper panel and see if I get enough extra room to get to the valve. If I can cut open the flat part of the valve enough to either grab the blade (assuming the connection is broken) or reattach the rod, it should allow me to slide the blade. I will just need to be at the dump station when I attempt this. If the blade attachment is broken, I might try some JB weld for a temporary fix. If I can get the tank dumped, the r&r should be fairly straight forward.
I will try this afternoon, if the showers will hold off. Thanks again to all for the replies and advice.
Larry Warren
Just saw your replies Bill & Kemahjohn. Thanks for the knowledge and guidance. Bill, once I get into the valve with an opening, I will see if I can reatach the handle. I like the idea of the long wood screw. In one of my tool boxes I have a 1/8" X 12" drill bit, so it is definitely doable. If I can get the valve working at least temporary, I will have a better time frame to do what Kemajohn suggests in about a month from now. I really appreciate the heads up on the rubber connection. I have used them in the past with great success. If you hadn't told me though, it would have turned into the way most of my plumbing jobs do with 3 or more trips to the hardware store.
Thanks a million,
Larry Warren
Larry, You can leave the end cap on and "play" around with options to get the valve open without having to tie up the dump station and feel rushed. Depending on what broke, Bill's idea sound good too. Destroying the flat part any way to get the valve open should not cause any leakage or mess at the valve. I like Kemah's idea to use the rubber connector, but we were somehow able to change valve and new rubber gaskets without cutting pipe.
BTW, we never put the top panel back, and now use the open space above the sewer pipes for spare sewer hoses and other small parts. We also have removed all trim panels over fresh water tank and also the carpeted panel over the water manifold so we can see any leaks or other problems.
Sewer connector question (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=27279.25)
see 3rd picture
I too used the rubber "joint" sleeve when I did the electric valves a few weeks ago. I have just put in a dump line yesterday here at the house and had to cut the 3" sewer line from Guest house to install a "Y" to connect the new line to it and again used a Rubber joint. They come in handy for sure. It also ensures a proper line up for valves as they are susceptible to jamming if too tight or slightly out of alignment in a solid connected line.
Thanks John. It is just like ones I have used on several plumbing projects on houses in the past. Nice looking job by the way.
Larry
Figuring that Google has every answer to the important questions of the universe, I gave it a go and on my first hit found a good answer...
I Pulled the Dump Valve but the Tank Won't Drain? (http://rvtipoftheday.com/general-tips/i-pulled-the-dump-valve-but-the-tank-wont-drain)
◾Connect Your RV sewer hose to a dump station
◾Extend the pull rod all the way open
◾Use the saw to cut through the valve body at about the mid section.
◾Place bucket or pan under valve
◾Use needle nose pliers to reach inside the valve body and grasp the valve gate.
◾Pull gate out to allow tank to drain through the hose
◾Use rags to minimize waste leaking from cut.
◾Flush tank until water rums clear
◾Let tank drain completely
◾Replace old valve
Thanks Barry. As much as I am not looking forward to it, this is probably the fix. After reading the article, it will probably happen later this week when I move to a site with full hook ups so I can be hooked up while cutting the valve. This will give me time to find my heavy duty rubber gloves :o
Larry
Larry, here is a picture of what our plumbing looks like with the panels removed. The panels were not easy to remove but it makes the rest of the job much easier. You can see where the cable pulls are clamped in the upper frame and where the cable wire connects with a set screw. Yours might be different but probably not much.
When I replaced my valves, one of the push/pull cables had been cut too short. Since I did not have a replacement, I reused that cable, but it is still (almost) too short.
Does any one know where I can get a longer cable? I thought of using a piece of music wire, but did not know what size to buy. Anyone solved this problem previously?
Thanks,
Trent
Thanks for the picture Roger. Mine is slightly different. My black tank valve is after the 90 deg elbow. Both valves use a solid rod to attach the handle. The black tank valve pushes up tight to the lower panel with a hole for the handle to stick thru. I need to figure how to take the lower panel off or at least loose. The service tech at the rv supply house showed me where the end cap on the valve will pop off. It would make it where I can see what is down there. It would make it where I could rethread the handle if that wasn't broken or possibly grab the top of the blade from the end instead of cutting the valve apart. I will update as I go.
Thanks again, keep em coming.
Larry
Trent, I used a local RV repair place in San Diego but I'm sure Camping world would have them
Trent,
You can get new handles and cables. Here is a six foot one, There are 8 ft as well and may be shorter.
Amazon.com: Valterra TC72 72" Replacement Flexible Cable: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-TC72-Replacement-Flexible-Cable/dp/B002N5POF6)
Valterra TC72 72" Replacement Cable (http://www.rvupgradestore.com/Valterra-Replacement-Cable-p/89-8523.htm)
I had the same issue on my black tank and I used the Thetford Aqua Kem
and after three dumps the valve stopped leaking. I think it cleaned and lubricated the seals.
Just had another Rube Goldburg thought. Has anyone tried holding the anvil end of a reciprocating saw (without a blade in it) up against the black tank and holding the trigger down? Wouldn't the vibration transmit enough to the tank to loosen "stuff" from the tank?
Granted, some tanks are inaccessible, but others have an area open.
Sure would beat ice cubes sloshing around and having to stress out the coach with swaying and panic stops.
Larry, if I understand correctly you do not have cable valve releases. Your valves are activated by a solid rod like mine. Is that correct? If so just remember you will need to reuse the rod with the new valve and I would use the metal handle you now have rather than the plastic one that will come with your new valve. However, be sure to save the plastic handle for future use.
I have heard of folks dumping a quart or two of the cheapest vegetable oil they can find into the empty tanks and then adding some water to the tank. Then dump quickly opening and closing the valves several times to lube the seals with veg oil. It might help for a while.
If you have the valves apart or are putting in new ones use a liberal amount of waterproof silicone plumber's grease on all of the rubber parts and the slide part of the valve. I don't think you can use too much. It is no fun doing it later.
Kent,
Thanks for the reminder. Went to AZ mobile repair to see if they had a new valve in stock. Got all the parts I need. The new valve has a metal handle with it ^.^d . I will be sure to save all of the old parts of the handle for future emergencies. While talking to the tech, he showed me that there is an end cap which should be removable allowing me to look inside where the rod goes through. If I can get the cap off, I hope to be able to see if the rod is unscrewed or broken. If unscrewed, thread lock and go (no play on words). If it is broken, I hope to be able to reach the sliding blade with long nose pliers and slide the valve open to drain.
In either case, I need to be hooked up to sewer. With the big weekend, we had to move to a spot without the sewer hookups. Hopefully on Tuesday one will become available. Of course, the weeks weather looks quite uncooperative. At least it isn't in the middle of winter :o
Thanks to Roger on the suggestion of the plumbers grease. I wouldn't have given it a thought. I like preventative maintenance.
Larry Warren
Larry, only use Threadloc if you never want it to come apart (assuming you are using the permanent stuff).
When assembling machines where vibration could cause nuts or set screws to come loose we would put silicone sealer on the threads. Holds but still removable.
Plus 2 on silicone grease. Oatey 40610 Hercules Plumber's Silicone Grease - Power Tool Lubricants -... (http://www.amazon.com/Oatey-40610-Hercules-Plumbers-Silicone/dp/B00E1BX6PU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464547479&sr=8-1&keywords=Oatey+40610+Hercules+Plumber%27s+Silicone+Grease)
see ya
ken
Good point on the threadlock. I would hate to break a good valve blade unnecessarily in the future trying to get it loose. Also, I cant find the threadlock. Must be in storage. But the silicone is in sight ;D
Larry
Let the games begin. Was able to move to sewer hookup. No leakage :dance: Removed last screws for bottom panel. Wasn't able to move panel out of the way enough to work on so elected to remove section of fiberglass panel directly in line with Valterra valve. Tried popping cap off of valve, didn't budge. decided to try to drill and tap 2 holes above and below valve handle and make a puller. Drilled (2) 1/8" holes. Bad news. First smelly leakage from bottom hole (hopefully not a boding of things to come), second, the cap is too thin to properly take a tap.
Decided to open top hole for visual inspection. Routered it open enough to see inside. I can see the end of the steel rod with a chunk of broken plastic attached. Bummer. Can't rethread. I spent the rest of the afternoon gathering tools to dissect tomorrow. I will first disconnect the faucet, water inlet and black tank flush fittings so I can move the bottom panel out of the way. I will cut the valve in two and try to pull the blade to drain. Hopefully without incident.
Once drained, flushed, drained, flushed (you get the picture) it should be a simple 4 bolt job, cut the pipe, remove 2", rubber coupling, reinstall valve, put back together. Not to bad of a job if you say it fast enough :o
Wish me luck. I will try to take pictures. They might be helpful to someone else, or amusing to most, depending on the outcome.
Thanks,
Larry Warren
Success!!!!!!! and with only minor casualties. After disconnecting the water fill, water faucett and tank flush lines, I removed the panel. I left the 50 amp elec line hooked up and set the panel on the ground next to the coach. I used a rotozip tool to cut the valve in halve so I could better see inside. This showed that the blade had broken and not unscrewed. With the style of handle, there were no threads. Instead the handle is held in place with plastic clips which snap into a groove cut into the handle. This allows it to rotate freely.
When I couldn't get hold of the blade because of too tight an area, I routed out grooves in the outer frame of the valve on both sides, top and bottom. With these grooves, I could grip the blade with 2 pair of needle nose pliers. A cautious pull and we had flowin matter. Unfortunately, some of the flow was through the blade opening. I had some rags handy to stuff into the sides, so the overflow was limited to probably less than a quart. With 40+ gallons to drain, it could have been worse. Once drained, I flushed the bay floor out as best I could with fresh water. I know that this let water drain through the floor, but have left bay doors open as much as possible to dry.
The old bolts had rust on the heads for them from previous leakage. 3 bolts came quietly, but the 4th (back side bottom, of course) snapped when I began to loosen it. It showed a lot of rust through out the entire length. Since I was using a 1/4 ratchet, I know that I didn't apply that much pressure, so it was in bad shape already. I didn't have enough room to drive the bolt out with a straight pin and hammer, so I opted to cut out 1" of waste line downstream of the valve. It fell apart after that.
When reinstalling the new valve, I first slid the flex rubber coupling on the stationary part of the line, and then used the plumbers grease on the seals. For anyone new to this, use plenty of grease. I first greased the valve with the seal out, inserted the seal, then greased the seal. By doing this, the grease held the seal in place while installing the valve onto the drain line. New bolts, slide the coupling on and tighten, and voila, no leaks.
I used the tank flush to fill the tank 1/2 way and test. The only problem this showed was where the tank flush goes into the top of the black tank, I had leaking water. It appears that the screws have rusted, letting the connection to loosen and leak. This should be an easy fix which I
can do before reinstalling the upper panel.
We have a happy female camper (male one too). This was not that bad of a fix, if you have the power tools to do the cutting. The rotozip made simple work of the finite cutting, and a sawzall worked on cutting the drain line.
Again, my thanks and gratitude for those whose advice has gone before me. In my situation (yours may be different) I am especially grateful for the advice on cutting the section of drain line out, and the application of plumbers grease. Those 2 things saved me countless hours of stress, anxiety and prepared me to be able to purchase in advance the necessary item. I only made 1 trip to the store that I didn't need to. (My normal plumbing jobs require 3-5 trips).
I am going to attempt to insert pictures, hope it works and hope it can help someone.
Thanks again to the great members of this awsome forum.
Larry
I couldn't get the last picture in, so here it is.
Larry
Is the length of the handle and shaft going to work?
Looking at the photo the top of valve is flush with bottom angle that panel is fastened too and there is about a 1/4" gap on handle shaft so my guess is it will just do.
One thing I guess you did Larry was clean up all that crap out of that whole compartment before replacing panels etc. I also do not like the valve being 90 deg from vertical as I seem to remember that they say max 2 oclock position from 12. FT put it the way you have done so it did last a long time.
JohnH
Craneman, yes it fits just right. I didn't have to add an extension for the black valve, but the grey will need the extension whenever I replace it.
John, yes I have flooded the compartment 3 times to make sure it is cleaned out. I haven't put the panels back in permanent yet. I am verifiying no leakage and I want to fix the tank flush hose before buttoning things up.
Larry
Larry, you might want to give the interior a nice heavy coat of Turtle Wax Ice or equivalent so any cleaning down the road is easier.
Turtle Wax makes an Interior spray that would work, in that you just spray it on and let it dry.
I am sure that removing the bottom panel made everything easier. But we have changed the sewer valves without removing the bottom panel, just the top panel.
We also permanently left the top panel off so we can easily check for water & holding tank leaks. All of our tank covers make the bay looks nice, but really serve to hide problems that we should be aware of.
Changing both gray & black valves at same time also make the job a little easier.
We found that periodic pouring large bottles of vegetable oil into an empty gray & black tank, letting it flow for 10 minutes to back of closed drain valves, and then quickly and partially open & close valves, eliminates tight & leaking valves. So we have not had to change valves in many years. When they feel tight, we pour and for many weeks, the valves slip open & close like new. We do not add water to oil before draining oil out.
Or you could reconfigure the panels to make accessing the waste plumbing easy as I, Barry B., Richard Bark, and now John H. have done :D
I can easily access the waste plumbing by removing 5 screws. I can also reach in through the vent to feel if it is high and dry back there without removing anything... Just saying! One of the best upgrades I have done.
Don
Nitehawk, thanks for the idea. I will do that next time I am in the area. I will probably change out the gray valve as a preventative measure in the near future when I am in a better setting. It hasn't been tight so I hope it isn't in the same condition as the black was.
Barry. It sounds like the vegetable oil is a good idea which I can start making a regular practice. Thanks.
Don, I was thinking about your nice sheet metal works when I was removing my panels. I decided to put it on the bucket list. Not sure when it will be done, but it sure makes for a much cleaner look.
Thanks again to all the members of this forum. Couldn't do it without your insight, wisdom and support.
Larry