Finally got the Caterham and it's car trailer sold & bought an old Subaru to replace it. So! Now that all of that is done. Time to fix the Aqua Hot. Off to RnR on the 22nd of July.
I really, really hope my coach is done throwing temper tantrums. I could use a bit of good fortune. Bought the coach in October 2015 and repairs have cost us $19 coach bucks so far. (to include the upcoming AH rebuild) Yikes $2100 per month :'(
Best wishes coming at you, BD. You deserve them.
Sorry to hear that! Hopefully you will soon have everything repaired that requires big bucks and you'll be able to simply enjoy your
motorhome. . . .
I'd say, you're coming full circle with problems. Let us know how the outlet in Spokane treats you, + pics of the gathering!
Hi Big Dog,
R&R should treat you OK as they have always done for me. I too hope that you are finally at then end of a seemingly endless disaster trail!!
Just off to Missoula with my FT to use as a hotel while I get a new hip and become a bionic man!! Its not only coaches that wear our??
Speedbird 1.
So true. My brain was due for a rebuild long ago.
All the best and prayers coming your way for your surgery.
One of those great pithy lines we "explorers of the sixties" liked was, "Brain damage is what we were after, the chromosome damage was just gravy." ^.^d
Just dropped off the coach on Friday. Will be in the shop for 4 weeks. Yikes! They sure don't move very fast, As long as the job is done right then that's OK.
Bought a used 16Ft car trailer from a fellow retired Air Force guy in Idaho that same evening.
4 weeks, yikes. What are they going to do to it besides the Aquahot??
Thanks for the wishes re surgery, all went well and I fear that the brain may be next!!!!
Speedbird 1.
I have no idea why so long. When i made the appointment several weeks ago I was told two weeks. The only other thing that is being done is wiring in a brake controller (tekonsha P3) and updating the pig tail from 6 pin to a 7 pin, But that can be done while the AH is in Colorado.
What's so bad about 4 weeks is that the wife works for the Army Corps of Engineering contracting office and September into early October is the end of fiscal year accounting madness and there is zero time off. (with a death in the family or grave illness being the only exceptions for time off) So that pretty much ends the wife and I RV'ing together for the 2016 season. She may have to buckle under and let me go by my self during September.
Congrats on the successful surgery. You will no doubt be running circles around everyone and kicking some butt very soon. How long are you grounded from flying?
Also, Had no idea that while we were watching the bad weather from my friends deck that we were seeing the remnants of a (minor) tornado that had touched down by the Air Base.
4 Weeks? Good gawd Gertie!
Afraid to ask how long it would take them to do a slide bladder....
Double yikes! At least you can book back to Wally World, imagine how much fun it would be for us full-timers. :'(
Yes Mike. For a full timer four weeks would be a nightmare.
And here is the sort of thing that gets me VERY riled up.
Just called RnR Liberty Lake, Wa. to see how the diagnosis of the AH went. The coach as been in their possession for a week (as of today) I was informed that it hasn't been touched yet and they SHOULD get to it any day now.
Goes hand in hand with the thread about the RV industry waking up. From my point of view NO it hasn't. They have this rather government mentality about every thing they do. As in, They set up an appointment that really isn't an appointment. Once they have your RV they just push it into the corner and get to it when they want to. Not when it was scheduled.
Big Dog,
That is not acceptable at all. Nothing like the service I have had over there.
Keith Woodruff is the service manager and you need to give him a big push!! kwoodruff@r n r r v.com
Speedbird1.
I feel a bit backed into a corner. When I called for the appointment the soonest they could get me in was two weeks later (July 22nd). I fear that if I just went to RnR to retrieve it and take it else where. It would end up taking long enough to get an appointment, get it there than it will take the RnR bunch to finally finish up. If I complain to RnR I'm sure it would be put on an even slower road to repair. Not very good service for an expected bill of 10 coach bucks.
What gets me is that if they were not going to be able to get to it till the first week of August. Then why didn't they just make an appointment for that time. My wife canceled a dental appointment and took holiday time to follow my in the car to get the coach to Spokane and have a way of getting back home.
Having worked on the other end of this conversation, s*** happens. One of the projects in front of you probably had a set back and they can't just stop working on it to start on your repair. When they make an appointment and the shop is busy they try to guess how long the repairs will take that are ahead of you. Once they start on yours they won't stop working on it to satisfy a customer that is behind you. From the customers point of view everything should be started and finished by the estimate, it just doesn't always work that way.
I hope they can maybe make up a little time working on yours and keep you satisfied.
They did offer to put me ahead of some other people. I said no way should others suffer because of their business practices. According to this shop, It should take one day or less to remove the AH unit & the same to reinstall.
In my 10 years of owning a trucking company I was never told to just drop off one of my trucks and they would get to it when they could. I called and told them what was wrong, made an appointment, Took the truck in and they fixed it.
My greater point being that they never told me that my appointment was just to see a guy about an appointment and that the coach would go into some sort of rotation scheme.
I had called the AH guy that is across the street from the AH factory in Colorado. He said three to four days from the time I arrive to the time I could leave. But I called this dealer in Washington and was told two weeks. I thought that was reasonable and the cost would be nearly the same. The guy in Colorado was cheaper by a $1,000 but with fuel to drive the coach out there, Meals, a few days in a hotel due to no water on board. I figured that a local shop would be good. It was the fact that the shop here in Washington didn't bother to even explain the process. (As ridiculous as it is) So that I could in the end make an informed decision about going to Colorado (or not) for the fix. As the shorter turn around would then help me to appease the DW's new found disdain for RV's by perhaps taking a couple of short trips before winterizing.
We almost took our coach there for a slide seal replacement, but ultimately took it to HWH. So now I am glad we didn't deal with RnR. Thanks for your post, sorry about all of your delays and problems.
Pithy saying #103: "This too will pass". ^.^d
That's what the DW's Dr. said about her stones. :))
Once we get a couple of good trips in our rear view mirrors and the fire in our checking account has been extinguished. I'm sure her enthusiasm will return.
bigdog, why do you not take it out and send to Colorado. There is nothing to taking them out and draining. Install is as simple too. Did a friends a year ago and it was my first. Changed out circuit board as well. Simple, just a bit awkward.
JohnH
For the same reason I didn't build my house. I don't mind doing small jobs and tinkering but I don't have a covered shop to use and I don't even have a paved pad to work at. I have no desire to crawl back underneath a truck (I've owned three 18 wheelers) dragging heavy dirty junk around in 100 degree heat in the dirt.
I don't think that's the point. I watched my neighbor try to service his AH himself, he finally gave up after dinking around for weeks.
Some people are smart at some things, others (like me) are willing to pay for a job done right, on time.
are willing to pay for a job done right.??? Mike quote.
I like to do as much as possible so I know it is done right. That is my point and working on an A Hot is not really dirty and greasy. Very simple and to replace parts is the same-simple. If burner has a hole etc then you replace it or weld it if possible. Some places these are put does make it awkward but really no different than taking out a rad from car.
I have done it out of a CCoach for friend.
JohnH
Just got off the phone with one of the RnR big bosses. He apologized for the way things have gone. He said that my service advisor while a knowledgeable and good guy, Also said that he is sorely lacking in communication skills and that they have been working with him to improve that area. (personally I think he needs communications boot camp) He agreed that a high level of communication is a must when we are dealing with customers that have hundreds of thousand dollars of coach needing work and that work will usually cost thousands.
He said that under normal circumstances a tech pulls a customers rig into a bay no more than 1-2 days after an appointment. But in this case the Foretravel tech ran into an issue on another coach before my appointment that set him back quite a few days. And this should have been communicated to me by phone before I even drove to Spokane.
My response was that I do understand that such things can and sometimes do happen. But the fact that this was not communicated to me made it look as if my coach was just tossed to the side and that my business didn't matter. I explained that if all the facts had been explained to me I would have had the ability to make an informed decision as to possibly arranging to have a different shop look at my coach. Or as likely would have happened, Just go with the flow and chalk it up to (as craneman says) s**t happens. I just expect to be told when such s**t is headed my way so I can at least "duck & cover"
So are they jumping on your unit getting you going?
It's in the bay being wrenched on as we speak. They did offer to bypass some other folks but I told them that I do not expect them to push others back as that's not fair too those customers, Just have it done by the promised time. Of course with the shipping time to Colorado and back along with the rebuild time at AH. There honestly isn't much room to speed things up unless they over night the unit too and from Colorado. I'd hate to see the cost of that.
Glad it's working out for you.
You are a better man than I - I would have gone ballistic and verbally beat them to death.
Scott
Well I'll certainly speak my mind, (at one point It nearly resulted in my being booted) Yet I believe in giving those that have raised my ire a chance to explain and I have no problem in forgiving and moving on. A fair amount of most issues in our lives simply boil down to either miscommunication or a lack thereof.
So true. Sometimes I communicate profusely. :D
That's me as well. I can literally walk up to a total stranger and start BS'ing with them and my wife can attest that I do that rather often.
is that a compulsion or purely for entertainment?
I just enjoy chatting with folks. I've never made a new friend by not saying hi to them.
Never argue with the cook before you get your meal and NEVER argue with the mechanic before the work is done! The time for argument is between the completed work and the bill-paying time.
Larry, The boss called me after I asked the service advisor (very calmly) why the coach had sat untouched for a week after dropping it off. So no argument nor even a raised voice on my part. It was the service advisor that pushed it up the chain of command to the boss. So I'm not worried.
Big Dog,
I only hope that you and your wife will enjoy your coach as much as we have, in the short 3+ years we have owned ours. You have certainly gotten a number of surprises in the first few months. With all those attended to, you have gotten yourselves a ways down the list of things that would have someday needed attention.
Our times traveling have always been a joy, but our times in our Foretravel have been priceless.
All the best on down the road.
It hurts peoples feelings when one has to go up the chain-of-command to get results, but tough toenails. ^.^d Were I the owner of that firm, there would be some serious butt kicking in order!
Mike, I didn't push it up the chain.
My service advisor (of his own volition) pushed it up the chain. Which tells me they were concerned about my being concerned & wanted to be proactive and take care of the issue. I take that as a good sign.
I only had one phone conversation when I called the advisor for an update one week after dropping the coach off. All I asked was why it has sat for a week un-touched and why my appointment was only to see him (the service advisor) and not to start work on the coach.
As per kicking butt. I suppose that other than the communication issue the service advisor has done well in their estimation. Having owned a (small) business, Unless the employee was cheating or stealing I.E. doing something very egregious. It's much cheaper & easier to correct a slightly wayward employee than trying to find a more qualified new one.
True, DAT! My point was, (Yes, I owned a service oriented biz for thirty-five years) the "situation" should not happened in the first place! That's where a ( "gentle") butt-kicking would have occurred were it my business. Glad you're getting squared away! ^.^d
Now I just need to forget about the coach for about 3 weeks. :whistle: Maybe I'll go chase that bear in the Wallowa's, That will take my mind off the coach.
It's been five weeks now and just got an email from the shop and it will be at least another week. Of course at first it was 4 weeks, Then 5 weeks, Now it's 6 weeks. So I hope they might forgive me for having very little faith in taking them at their word.
I wonder (I'll ask and report back) if the shop ever even made prior arrangements with AH to work on my unit, Oh I don't know perhaps an appointment. Of course appointments being what they are in the RV industry, I suppose that was a silly thought on my part.
But hey the RV shops have it super tough these days what with making money hand over fist and I feel bad for them having been burdened with working on my coach. Well there's always next years RV season. ^.^d
UPDATE!
Minutes after posting this I got an email from the shop. According to AH ONE (yes a single lone unit) that was being rebuilt had a leak and production came to a halt and caused a back up of all the other units on the rebuild line.
So, Near as I can tell from that excuse. AH has one tech rebuilding these things and that a single issue on ONE unit brought AH to a standstill? You would think that with a line of units being rebuilt at a minimum $6,700 per. They could perhaps have a second tech.
If it weren't such a sad and pathetic excuse it would actually be funny.
Sorry for your issue
Geez, what a whiner! What's six weeks? Being full-timers, we'd have bought a pup tent and stayed outside on the sidewalk with a sign that said, "These guys are ripping us off". ^.^d
Yep that's me. The squeaky wheel.
This one isn't on RnR though as RnR did the right thing and let me know that it was being delayed and that they would ask AH as to why. But AH has taken the RV industry crappy customer service baton and run with it. It's the same ole same ole industry wide lackadaisical attitude about customer service as we have heard from fellow Fortravelers and as explained in Gadget Guru's RV industry thread.
Just like what happened at RnR when I dropped off the coach, AH couldn't be bothered with notifying the customer (RnR) as to what, when and why until RnR had to ask AH what the hell was going on with my rebuild.
Interesting that they are repairing your old unit?? When mine went bad I exchanged it with John Carrillo and got it before we returned the old one. No hold up at all?? We used his crate to return mine. One day for the shipping and two days work in a local diesel shop in Helena.
At the time I was given to understand that they would not repair them, which I found strange, but my price was similar to your repair.
Speedbird 1
Mr. C made no mention to me of him nor anyone else having a refurbished unit of my type laying about and that he could do as you stated. He told me over the phone that he would remove it, Wheel it across the street and have it back in one day. Total time in Colorado (according to Mr. C) would have been have been 4 days at most.
I have found from the two companies that I'm dealing with right now, That RV shops and suppliers are not very forthcoming with information or sage advice. They seem to assume that I'm all seeing and all knowing just like carnac the magnificent and that I know all the deep inside information to ask the pertinent questions. I can ask basic ones just fine.
I was rather naive about how the RV repair business really works. Mr. C said he could get me into his shop in 3 weeks. RnR gave me an "appointment" that was one week earlier and said a week and a half for the AH rebuild. So I figured that with the fuel, Food, Hotel and more miles. I thought that one week longer wasn't a big deal.
Well we can see how that worked out for me.
My wife is more upset than I am and she is still 6 weeks later after me to sell the coach.
It doesn't seem that this is working out for you birddog. Seems like it has been one thing after another with your coach. Probably a sore subject but did you have a PPI? I don't recall anyone having as many issues as you have had. I'm really sorry for your troubles. Good luck.
A current foretravel owner & Forum member (not a frequent poster though) did go over the coach with me. To me the issue was one of timing of those things that went wrong.
Here is the list of issues. Most of them are things that can and do happen to other coaches. It's just that mine came one after another in a short time.
First, was the Allison shift pad. That pad is a rather weak design for something that gets used a lot and purports to be a commercial grade product. Soft touch switches are an issue in all things that have them. Look at washers & dryers that have them. When they go out you just buy a new machine. My old manual control washer. You just put in a new $10 rotary dial. Most audio components that have them will have a problem with them.
second, and at the same time as the shift pad was the warped exhaust manifold. No one would have noticed that on a regular inspection.
Thirdly, the batteries were toast. It happened not long after the first two issues.
There was a minor water leak at the house pump that was easily fixed. As I said in another post. The basic Foretravel build is fine. The issues have all been from systems supplied by third parties to Foretravel and are the same as used in a lot of other coaches.
After that things seemed to calm down. But then the Aqua Hot went south. No inspection could have seen that coming and I truly believe that it was caused by the use of an RO water filter system and the acidic water it makes.
So for me & the wife it has been very frustrating to have paid what we did for the coach (it was a fair price according to the forum) and then have repair bills amounting to 35% of that purchase price in only the next ten months. And having only been able to use the coach twice for a total of 7 days. That's a bitter pill to swallow and the wallet is smoking hot.
What gets under the wife's skin isn't the coach as much as the horrid kiss my butt, What! You want communication? attitude of those who sell and repair them. And the fact that a 10-15 hour job has cost us 1 1/2 months use (if they deliver it on the third different get well date)
You will get ahead of all these issues and with some preventive maintenance will stay ahead of major problems in the future. Your experience with those jack as*#%s in Spokane only reinforces why we have taken two trips to Nacodoches in three years of Foretravel ownership. Keith at MOT is a truly decent tech who will not abide lying,or wasting time diagnosing problems on customers dime. Rudy in Baytown diagnosed our Aqua hot issues within an hour and had us fixed shortly after. Sure these folks need to make a living wage but I haven't felt anything but pleased with time and money spent . I am a firm believer in doing maintenance and upgrades myself whenever possible but all other major deals would try to incorporate my coaches birthplace into a trip.
Don't give up before the fun begins!
I am just so sorry to hear of all your problems. It must get better soon and you can enjoy the coach.
My previous message said that I got a new Aquahot, but I was wrong it was a reconditioned unit for $6234 but four years ago.
I truly hope that you problems end, and soon, but not as much as you do, I am sure.
Speedbird 1
Got the call from RnR saying that the coach is ready to pick up on Thursday 1 Sep. So off i go in the morning for a 3 hour drive to Spokane.
Hopefully all will be well....
I'm back in Eugene, getting the rest of the maintainance on the genny done @ Freightliner then 2 driveways down @ Crappy World for front A/C and replacing both the OTA and Satellite antennae .
And discovered gray tank valve won't completely close....... just one more thing to add to the list
So as a noob and a buildings mechanical systems engineer what is so super duper about the aqau- hot system
If you have and AH you love it If you don't you hate them Kind of like Ford vs Chevy
Check out the search function here on the forum - tons of threads on this topic debating th pros and cons
Pros
Endless hot water
quiet heat - typically 3 different zones in a Foretravel. diesel powered (you carry a lot of this on your coach) vs. Propane
Cons
More expensive to fix and maintain less folks that can service
more money to for initial purchase
Propane Pros
simple, can be fixed often by owner, and almost any RV service facility cheaper to buy initially, maintain and service
Cons
Noisy heat (as opposed to almost silent aqua hot fans) water hot limited - shorter showers, etc.
Many (most who have never had an aqua hot) swear by Propane, as many love Aqua Hot- some have had some VERY expensive Aquahot events - the worst is improper winterization leading to freeze damage.
Well it is a 1998 aqua hot so it's 18 years old. First failure so not a bad track record. But they are spendy to fix. But they do work so well.
I had used the coach twice since taking it out of winter storage this year with no leakage. I had a local RV shop winterize it this past fall.
Now I could very well be wrong, But I suspect that it was one of the prior owners usage of an on board Reverse Osmosis filter system (it is disconnected) that produces great but rather acidic water. Which is not so good for copper piping then add a bit of high pressure city water and that may have what pushed it off the cliff.
I'm not sure why the acidic from the RO would bother the aquahot but maybe I'm missing something. As far as having another AQ, my first experience was when the fuel lines from the pump leaked. Put about 5 gal of diesel into the bays. That was a lot of money just to get that cleaned out. Now, with a water leak on the fresh side I don't think I'd even use it for a boat anchor.
Have you every got battery acid on your jeans or tee shirt? Same effect just a lot slower as RO water isn't as acidic as battery acid. But over years it can add up. Sort of like hard water deposits as well.
No matter. Aqua hot is whats in my coach and just like a Tigers stripes it isn't going to change.
Did you get the AH back, yet, Jerry?
Yes Mike. Just got back from Spokane about 7PM Friday 2nd. The repairs actually came in UNDER their estimate.
They had labor to removed & replaced the AH, Shipping charges for the AH, Rebuild charges for the AH, They replaced the AH fuel lines and updated the fuel filter to a better location. A new AH exhaust system was installed.
I also had them update the trailer plug to a 7 pin round and install a new hi tech brake controller.
When I dropped off the coach. They estimated $10 K for all the AH, and $1k for the other items And of course a whole bunch of tax (9.3%) which would have been another $1k.
Much to my surprise the total bill was $9,600 including tax. $2,500 less than expected. So that was good news indeed.
Now you have some fuel money to use the coach.
Propane furnaces work well depending on your sensitivity to humidity and temp swings.
Propane furnaces for safety require the fan to come on first after the thermostat sends the start signal so if you had an internal propane leak you will not have an explosion.
At the temp cutoff signal the flame cuts off. The fans high temp safety system keeps the fan on until the unit cools enough.
The aqua hot produces heat at the fan turn on then when the higher temp opens the thermostats contact the fan stops immediately.
Plus and minus 5 degrees or so on the propane system. Plus or minus 2 degrees on the aquahot.
fishing tackle........