Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Tim on August 31, 2016, 05:10:09 pm
Title: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Tim on August 31, 2016, 05:10:09 pm
Looking to buy a 1996 Foretravel U270 3600 needing new tires. The dealer is listing it for $30k but the NADA guide says it's worth $22K. How does one reconcile the difference?
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: John S on August 31, 2016, 05:45:29 pm
With an older coach it is more the condition then the NADA. For instance are the tires new? If so that is 5k right there. Has it been serviced recently and are their upgrades and does it show well.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: ltg on August 31, 2016, 06:42:55 pm
The NADA guide I use shows a 1996 U270 36ft average retail at $15,150. Having said that, MOT in Nacogdoches has a 1996 U295 36ft listed for $44,500. Larry
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Michelle on August 31, 2016, 06:54:05 pm
NADA is intended for transactions that involve a high number of identical vehicles, sold at regular dealerships (National Automobile Dealers' Association). It is for cars, trucks, and mass-produced motorhomes.
None of that applies to a Foretravel.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Carol Savournin on August 31, 2016, 07:50:09 pm
When obtaining insurance for our '95 coach some years ago, the rep I was talking to could not understand why I was insisting that a replacement figure was more than double what he saw on NADA. I had to educate him ... and then he realized what we were talking about. I think he thought I was running some kind of scam!!
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Sven and Kristi on September 01, 2016, 12:23:35 am
We encountered this problem when buying our coach this year. The sale price was $83k, but NADA had it at around $45 and we could not get a vehicle loan for it. We ended up having to do an equity loan to cover the cost (this worked out better than having to sell stocks). Normally, we use USAA insurance, but they referred us to Progressive, since they don't cover RVs (or classic cars for that matter). Progressive will insure based on "agreed upon value"; in our case $83k if we suffer a total loss.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: FourTravelers on September 03, 2016, 08:45:21 am
When obtaining insurance for our '95 coach some years ago, the rep I was talking to could not understand why I was insisting that a replacement figure was more than double what he saw on NADA. I had to educate him ... and then he realized what we were talking about. I think he thought I was running some kind of scam!!
Carol, Most on this forum know that you have a way with words....... if you educated an insurance rep. then that is proof positive!! ^.^d Sure would like to know how you did that? I failed miserably............. ;)
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Caflashbob on September 03, 2016, 11:16:43 am
We encountered this problem when buying our coach this year. The sale price was $83k, but NADA had it at around $45 and we could not get a vehicle loan for it. We ended up having to do an equity loan to cover the cost (this worked out better than having to sell stocks). Normally, we use USAA insurance, but they referred us to Progressive, since they don't cover RVs (or classic cars for that matter). Progressive will insure based on "agreed upon value"; in our case $83k if we suffer a total loss.
The policy also says "ACV" Actual Cash Value. They call three dealers for the brand to establish its retail price. At least my progressive policy is that way
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Carol & Scott on September 03, 2016, 11:53:39 am
This topic has been discussed many times. Just do a search and find pages of threads.
The real question is how to value a FT.
We had an Independent Appraiser establish the value. He surveyed the market of available like kind coaches in the US and we added upgrades. We sent many digital images with a list of upgrades. An appraised value was established by them, They produced a document and the document was submitted to the insurance company. I do not recall who we actually used but here is a link with appraisal sources.
Google (http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=rv%20appraisal%20service)
When we had ours appraised a few years ago, right after we bought her she was appraised at about $164K. The insurance company, Overland, would have insured her for that amount but we chose $125K. That is what we insure her for today.
Note: There is also a neat formula that has been posted numerous times the does a pretty good job. Not sure if insurance companies use this formula, but is was pretty close to what they are selling. It is a sliding scale based on year and original MSRP.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: RTG on September 11, 2016, 05:33:22 pm
I made a spreadsheet of 32 Foretravel coaches, '98-'03 for sale on the internet over the course of 6 months.
I got a temporary free membership to NADA to get access to the dealer, trade and private sale book values.
The first thing that became apparent was that NADA simply uses a formula for depreciating the value of *all* coaches, about 4% per year. Bear in mind that in the early years 4% depreciation is a lot, but the dollar amount of depreciation decreases as the value decreases.
The second thing that became apparent is that there is *absolutely no* connection between NADA book value for a 15-20 year old Foretravel and the asking or sales prices of those coaches. NONE. Unless the coach is in miserable condition (or you found a real sleeper), the book value is very low.
I tried uploading the spreadsheet to the Forum at one point last November - I can't recall if I succeeded or not. I will check and post back in case anyone is interested. The information is coming up on a year old now, but it's still valid for comparison.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: RTG on September 11, 2016, 05:52:08 pm
I just posted the spreadsheet to the media section.
It covers 61 coaches, '96 - '04, comparing asking prices vs. book, with commentary on condition (at least what it appears to be from photos) as well as the type of seller.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: ltg on September 11, 2016, 06:11:34 pm
When we listed our coach for sale at MOT it had a NADA average value of $94500. The list price as shown on NADA was $355,000. The listed price depreciated for 13 years would be 9.68%. I am using the free NADA available on the internet. Larry
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: craneman on September 11, 2016, 06:21:26 pm
I just posted the spreadsheet to the media section.
It covers 61 coaches, '96 - '04, comparing asking prices vs. book, with commentary on condition (at least what it appears to be from photos) as well as the type of seller.
Interesting I bought the '99 listed in SC. and paid $45,000 the "open check book" missed a few things
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: RTG on September 11, 2016, 10:01:49 pm
When we listed our coach for sale at MOT it had a NADA average value of $94500. The list price as shown on NADA was $355,000. The listed price depreciated for 13 years would be 9.68%. I am using the free NADA available on the internet. Larry
Yes, you're right. The first 2-4 years depreciation is heavy (around 25%). For a few years after that it's less, around 8-9%. Then it drops to a steady 4% or so. My point is, there is a forumula, plain and simple. Nothing else goes into calculating book value. And it's the same formula no matter what make of motorhome.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Caflashbob on September 11, 2016, 11:04:42 pm
Yes, you're right. The first 2-4 years depreciation is heavy (around 25%). For a few years after that it's less, around 8-9%. Then it drops to a steady 4% or so. My point is, there is a forumula, plain and simple. Nothing else goes into calculating book value. And it's the same formula no matter what make of motorhome.
As a long term Rv sales manager who made part of his living by financing Rv's if you do not add for every piece of "optional" equipement on our coaches the wholesale and retail numbers are low.
Posted this many times. NONE of you were in the biz. You are incorrectly calculating the nada book values.
And if you did add everything the values were still low.
Look at Kelly blue book and add for equipement, closer.
Before you tell me it's all standard I have built several coaches as empty shells from Foretravel
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Chuck Pearson on September 12, 2016, 12:29:32 pm
As a long term Rv sales manager who made part of his living by financing Rv's if you do not add for every piece of "optional" equipement on our coaches the wholesale and retail numbers are low.
Posted this many times. NONE of you were in the biz. You are incorrectly calculating the nada book values.
And if you did add everything the values were still low.
Look at Kelly blue book and add for equipement, closer.
That is exactly the way usaa arrived at value of my coach. Ended up way over book and around real retail value.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: RTG on September 12, 2016, 08:08:43 pm
As a long term Rv sales manager who made part of his living by financing Rv's if you do not add for every piece of "optional" equipement on our coaches the wholesale and retail numbers are low.
Posted this many times. NONE of you were in the biz. You are incorrectly calculating the nada book values.
And if you did add everything the values were still low.
Look at Kelly blue book and add for equipement, closer.
Before you tell me it's all standard I have built several coaches as empty shells from Foretravel
Mea culpa
For the exercise I undertook - which was to compare numbers for many coaches in one place against the only standard I know of, which is "book value" it was impractical to go through and pinpoint every feature of every type of coach. For millenium era coaches there are 34, 36, 40, 42 tag, non-tag, U270, U295, U320, slides, no slides... I wasn't going to itemize. But I DO wonder since there is a standard feature set offered on every U320 and likewise a different standard feature set offered on every U295, and likewise for every U270, why the "book values" do not take those standard features into consideration? In fact there are different book values also depending on how many slides. Why do the book values not include features that came standard with each model? Why would they have to be manually added to the book values? In that case what do the book values actually represent? I don't follow the logic - seems like a very fuzzy logic. And I will say again - the *depreciations* are according to a *formula*. Plain and simple. I saw it. I am not going to dispute it.
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: Caflashbob on September 12, 2016, 09:24:11 pm
For the exercise I undertook - which was to compare numbers for many coaches in one place against the only standard I know of, which is "book value" it was impractical to go through and pinpoint every feature of every type of coach. For millenium era coaches there are 34, 36, 40, 42 tag, non-tag, U270, U295, U320, slides, no slides... I wasn't going to itemize. But I DO wonder since there is a standard feature set offered on every U320 and likewise a different standard feature set offered on every U295, and likewise for every U270, why the "book values" do not take those standard features into consideration? In fact there are different book values also depending on how many slides. Why do the book values not include features that came standard with each model? Why would they have to be manually added to the book values? In that case what do the book values actually represent? I don't follow the logic - seems like a very fuzzy logic. And I will say again - the *depreciations* are according to a *formula*. Plain and simple. I saw it. I am not going to dispute it.
As I posted I have ordered empty shell Foretravels. With or without baths.
Only way for a lender to know what's on any Rv as far as equipment on is to ask for a list.
Same loan officer is looking at pop up campers, trailers, slide in campers the same day in the same stack of aps.
And they know nothing about Rv's more or less Foretravels
Title: Re: NADA vs Retail
Post by: RTG on September 13, 2016, 01:42:01 pm