I'm still investigating DP's and have found that in 100k - 200k price range I can buy an older model Newell in the same price range as a later model Foretravel. Which would be the better deal? I'm not famiar enough with either brands to make an intelligent choice. Are maintenance costs more extreme on one over the other? I think I would want a lifting tag axle and I'm not sure Newell offers it. Would anyone like to give an opinion or possibly some advice? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Grandpa, Great question! I love the early-on Newell designs. I'll watch the responses with interest from those who own and drive them. Floor it. P
[moved from Classifieds since this is not a classified ad - Michelle]
If you haven't already joined, we highly recommend Newell Gurus (http://www.newellgurus.com) for their forum to learn more about Newell. Get both sides of the aisle; here on Foreforums the membership will be biased towards FT and mostly have knowledge about FT, not as in-depth about Newell, and you won't get a complete picture ;)
Living A 105 miles from Newell we have toured the factory and looked at them very closely. The main big difference is that the Newell is a metal coach and FT is fiberglass coach. Can't go wrong with either. Newell's are generally a heavier.
Roy
If you camp from power pole to power pole and/or do not mind running the gen always the aluminum skinned Newell is a choice.
Extremely complicated hydraulic systems on the Newell. My guru buddy greatly adds to his income when they come in.
He is one of the few people who can and have maintained older Newells. He is in san clemente, ca.
The foretravel is totally different construction with vacuum bonded steel framed fiberglass skinned walls.
Long ago at a FMCA rally in Minot, North Dakota a hailstorm hit hard enough to kill dogs outside of coaches and destroy 1,700 airstream trailers our of 4,400 attendees.
All the aluminum topped prevosts and newells were severely damaged.
The foretravel's lost a/c and refer and vent covers. A few broken windshields. No major body damage.
After 33 years on and off in the highline Rv biz and being in the west coast area and preferring not to have to camp from power pedestal to power pedestal or have to run the gen continuously I am typing this from our 40' unihome.
The Newell is too large and heavy and tender for our style of use and the dark paint sucks in heat too much.
Many times out old white coach fully closed up in storage maintains outside temp inside. No fan, a/c or windows open.
The Newell being painted metal will need the gen on shortly after dawn in any other than cool winter weather.
So will a dark painted foretravel just not as soon.
Most rv'ers exoect to run their gen or need hookups every day.
If that's ok and the heavier maintenance does not bother you both are good coaches.
Watching my old guru buddy service all brands really reinforces our old foretravel choice.
But not as pretty as a Newell normally.
Bob, have had 2 Foretravels, 99 320 and a 97 295. Now have a 95 Newell. Wanted a 45 ft coach and could not afford a IH.
Time for you to get a new guru. Hyd system and air/leveling system is the same in my Newell as it was on the Fortravels.
My Newell has 6 8d batteries [from the factory] and same electrical load as a Foretravel, so is actually better for dry camping.
My white Newell is actually much easier to cool and keep cool than either of my Foretravels. Maintenance is the same for either coach. A diesel eng is a diesel engine.
Newell are generally heavier because they often have much bigger tanks, [mine holds 320 gals fuel, 175 gal of water, and 180 gals
gray/ black water]. Interiors are often a laminate on 3/4 wood panels, which is very heavy.
The Newell does have aluminum skin that is spray foamed and backed by wood on a steel frame
Newell is different than Foretravel is some ways but both are heads above any other motorhome [except maybe some prevost conversions].
Jim
[repaired quote formatting - Michelle]
Thanks for the info. Your white Newell helps the heat issue greatly. Rare.
The hydraulic stuff reference was from watching him and another pro trying to find which solenoid was bad in controlling a rear slide out room in a later Newell that had 13 solenoid in the bay under the drivers window and no diagram from Newell of which one controlled which function. They had Rueben on the phone while I was standing there and he has no idea either. Unit was sold for $140k and the seller wanted the slides to work correctly so they sent it to my gurus adjacient biz for them to fix as he thought my buddy was too expensive.
Meaning it required a lot of service. Both shops have the same hourly rate..
Not a spray foam fan. Cornerstone went to a vapor barrier type fiberglass mat insulation in the tv video.
Unless their was a way to do it without formaldehyde?
Foretravel used low emission carpet, paneling and block foam in the walls.
Only test I know
I ithink the later Newells went to aluminum framing if not mistaken and non laminated walls with hung skins.
Similar to cornerstone coaches.
Newells are nice. They are just massive and heavy. I'd definietly consider one if I was doing that style of RV life. But the lower height and lighter FT (and shorter) allows for better federal and state park access.
Yes, Newell's can be very complicated. Every coach is made exactly to the owners specs, so it is difficult to have a standard wiring diagram. Nice thing is Newell's 24/7 phone support. Once called them at 0700 on a sunday morning with a electrical problem.
Left a message with the switchboard and a electrical tech called me back 10 minutes later, and walked me through the problem.
Jim
Join NewellGurus.com. That will be the best place to get accurate information on Newell. Numerous owners with older Newell's can provide the information you need to make an informed buying decision. With a Newell you will get better customer service. A better engineered and manufactured coach with the Newell. Somebody has already mentioned the 24 hour emergency hot line.
I have owned an 04 U320 and a 2012 IH 45. I will never buy another Foretravel. Very poor customer service and lack of attention to detail on service.
Buy the Newell and you will not have buyer's remorse.
Reese
Last white Foretravel was, what, a 2003 U270? I've seen lots of photos of white Newells of the same era, virtually anything of that same 2003 era and newer. So not that rare, and about the same as a Foretravel in the same years.
Later model Newell, $140k? The descriptors "later model" and "sold for $140k" don't match up. Sounds like maybe a late 1990's coach or barely a 2000's one.
Newells are good coaches, just as Foretravels are. This site has good FT info and good people, newellgurus.com has good Newell info and good people.
Wow! This is a great thread following a great question. My enthusiasm for this topic equals Old Knucklehead in the beginning of this thread. :D
We spent 4 years searching for the right coach for us, and for most of that time, we were considering older model Newells. We love Newells. If we move on from our current coach - a 40' 1997 U320 - a Newell is a strong possibility. You are definitely on the right track.
A few good differences pointed out above - weight differences; height differences; Newells are all custom so each coach is completely different when working on them. One thing I learned from Stuart at MOT is when you own a 40 year old plane and something breaks, you are going to buy a part for a brand new plane with brand new plane part prices. I thought this was an invaluable lesson. Newells have many more unique and specialized parts with more things that could potentially go wrong, and just because you are in a coach that is early 2000's, you are paying the same price for those parts, just like you had a new 2016 custom model. Maybe it is just me, but I thought this was a very interesting tidbit to mull over. Foretravel parts are relatively easier to come by, and they are a little easier to work on than a Newell. My opinion solely.
As far as owners are concerned, we have met many Newell owners, and each and every one of them are the most lovely, open, generous hearted and warm people you could meet. Just like fellow Foretravelers. ^.^d The Newell Guru website, as well as the old New Classic website, are very good resources from which to learn and meet owners. You have already made the first step in learning about Foretravels and the Foretravel community by posting here on this forum.
Good job!! You are on the right track, and what a fun learning process this is. b^.^d
sorry if my info was not correct.
All the older high line coaches had block foam walls, fiberglass glass skinned, vacuum bonded non dark painted structure walls.
In a highly competitive dog eat dog every brand ended up the same.
No spray in foam, no hung walls,
Buddy went on and on when I called him now.
No RVIA sticker. Ever. No propane and electrical verification. No doh sticker.. old tire company. Must keep union guys.
Buddy was vogues quality control manager.
Valves and relays exposed in bays. No doors.
Ifs drives poorly.
140 psi on drivers sidewall for tires. 130 on tires.
2001. $140k.
This is 25% of what he said, he was their rep,
Shimmed cabinets to sidewalls.
Romex to 12v primary wire. Some 110 v to small rockers switches. He blew up quite a few test probes because of it.
He rates foretravel four times the coach.
Recessed window in slide delaminates in rain.
Dishwashers were plumbed into the cold side. Took 4 hours electrically to heat the water to nsf standards, was designed for 130-160 input.
VBS roof adhesion. No weld or rivets. No roof structure under roof airs. Number two gauge wire to dash for power. Long bolt through all the round terminal ground wire ends then a 8 gauge wire to a frame area from the bolt
Bob, sure you are trying to say something, but I have no idea of what you are trying to say.
My buddy was the local Newell rep and repairs them to this day. The comments I posted were a small percentage of the design and serviceability issues he mentioned.
When I texted him to find out the year of the one I menrioned had rear slide room issues he called me instead.
We were the bluebird sales guys together in 1989.
When I mentioned the discussion about the differences being discussed he volunteered the info I posted.
When I asked if the slide was ever fixed correctly by the adjoining service place he said no.
If you held the button down to bring the room in it would bottom out in then unlock.
If you released the button at exactly the right moment it stayed locked.
A conversation with bill might be informative if you really want to know about the coaches.
He agreed about the pretty. They look nice.
He mentioned a Larry Dunkle who owns a large biz moving heavy manufacturing and machining centers had his Newell stop on the la freeways four times causing major traffic jams.
Thanks to all for your informative posts. I'm very interested in hearing multiple opinions and experiences from all who are willing to share. I am concerned about unexpected expensive repairs. I know issues will continually arise, but I'm interested in any common expensive problems that I need to be aware of that only experience reveals.
Bob, this is degrading into a Ford vs Chevy thing. Both brands have good points and bad points. Try to be more open minded. Foretravels are great for some people, Newell's are great for others. I was very happy with my Foretravels, and am now happy with my Newell. As PT Barnum said "You pays your monies, and you takes your chances"
Jim
We hear that factory wiring diagrams are non-existent to new & old Newell owners, and this causes quite a few problems.
Yes, sometimes a problem. Newell saying 'No two coaches alike'. Problem is every Newell is custom made and Newell has never made a wiring diagram for one single coach because of it. Seems many Newell owners are technically inclined. The ones that are not, pay the factory to do it for them. Newell Guru forums are a good resource for do it yourself owners.
Read someplace that 75% of of Nascar drivers have Newells, so good mechanics are not a problem for them.
Jim
Mike Rodgers at MOT a while back said he was getting comfortable working on Newels, but he did confirm (as I recall anyway) that they did not have wiring diagrams, which would complicate troubleshooting and repair.
Grandpa.....I have only now opened this thread as I thought nothing relevant for me to add or contribute because I have never had a Newell. I do have two friends with 1985 and 1989 Newells and they are outstanding coaches. But if you were to look at that vintage, let me know and I can give you very relevant info. The 1989 owner had a FT with a slide, went to the Newell after sold the FT when thought was thru with RVing. Now misses the FT.
This is the relevant info I can give you with me never owning one.....
a. The Newell is generally very very heavy and a sturdy machine. It is more expensive to repair than the FT, in general, and important to some given budget restraints. It does appear to me that for any given year back in the 1998 - 2003 range you see more depreciation than in the FT (I may be wrong, just seems that way....cheaper to buy the Newell versus the original price. True???)
b. Most importantly....if a first coach.....as I was visiting with a prospective buyer at a local dealer....the head business manager told me, do not let them buy a Newell as a first motorhome. It is too complicated. (I believe that turned out to be good advice, several technical talks have subsequently agreed, said the same)
Those Newells though seem massive, chrome big ole DD, huge wheels....a go anywhere kinda feel, look. I like a bit less the more sterile appearance of most all the interiors I have seen but this is just personal feeling.
My younger brother just recently purchased a 2001 Newell from MOT. It is his first motorhome. It is very complicated. Thank goodness that my older brother, who owns a Monaco Signature, is helping him with the learning curve. The Monaco has the same DD series 60 engine and HWH hydraulic systems.
Larry
Can someone add some detail to how Foretravel builds their walls and ceiling. I see on their website they use a steel frame but I am not clear on the actual construction.
My buddy mentions that the NASCAR guys get their Newells on lease. They call them their two year motorhome as the swap them out.
All learned to carry bottle jacks to jack up the coach in places so the rooms can go in.
You really need to talk to bill park Rv and marine.
I have no axe the grind here just happen to be his old friend and we enjoy picking apart rv's.
Bluebird guys refer their friends to him. The local prevost resale place uses him for pdi's and walk throughs.
He has a constant stream of high line coaches in his shop for twenty years.
Remember about the no RVIA sticker. No DOH sticker.
Careful on the small rocker switches as some are straight 110v. Not to a relay. He said to warn you about that.
All foretravel walls, floors, compartment dividers, compartment floors and roofs are pre assembled from vacuum bonded insulated assemblies.
Then bolted together. Some have had bottom assemblies rust here. Part was unboltable and replaceable.
The steel framing is 1 1/2" 18 gauge. Welded.
Let me suggest we keep the discussion on Foretravel vs Newell.
Thanks.
Apologies to Brett.
If I were considering Foretravel vs Newell the construction techniques would be paramount to my decision. I suppose I should have searched elsewhere for that information.
I have owned both, a 02 Forethravel 40' and now a 99 Newell 45' two slides for the past three and a half years. I also have lived in Nacogdoches for the past 20 years. I have owned six motorhomes in my lifetime. The Newell has been my favorite. Some of the reasons is it is all electric, it is well built, it has both 12 volt and 110 volt air compressor, water pump and the AH has both 1600 watt and 4500 watt heating element. Where foretravel's AH has only an 1600 watt element, and the Newell drives like a car and is very quiet, and once parked it is great to live in. I like having the 160 gal. fresh water tank and really like have only one waste tank which also holds 160 gallons and has air dump valves. I like that both the AH and the generator exhausts from the roof and not ground level. I do most of my own service and with the expert help from the Newell Gurus I have had very few problems I can't handle. When I take it to the factory in OK. I have nothing but good things to say about them and their 24/7 service call line.
Now for the downside. Newell's are large, tall, and heavy. My 99 weights right at 48,000 lbs with full fuel and 1/4 water. My 02 Foretravel about 15,000 lbs less. My Newell is about 13' tall and the 02 was 11.6'. If you are over 6'3" tall, this era Foretravel is not for you because the inside is low. Newell's have independent front suspension which turns sharper than an straight axle but that does not mean the rear wheels will follow the same footprint. One learns real fast they don't. One also has to find parks that are able to park extra large motor homes and then walk and check out your spot before driving to it. All this can be stressful for an old man like me. You call a park you have not been to before and tell them what you have, my wife always ask if they can park a tour bus, and most of the time the answer is oh yes. Well the space is 60 foot long but there is no way getting into it because of trees or something else in the way.
I have not covered all of pros or cons but I will say they are both very good coaches and when I do trade for a smaller coach in the future it will be for a Foretravel. I do feel that 40' is the most ideal size motor home.
No apology needed. You question was directly on the topic.
My comment was related to a post about service customers at a particular facility which has been deleted.
Bob & Susan,
RE: "Remember about the no RVIA sticker. No DOH sticker." What are you referring to? Does Newell not have RVIA sticker? Is DOH Dept of Health? What is the relationship between RVIA & DOH? One of my concerns is when we painted, I removed our outside RVIA placard by the door. And wondered who checks for it, like state inspections etc.
My friend mentioned he had to deal with the RVIA as the Vogue quality control manager.
Electrical, plumbing and many other items must pass their standards and a physical inspection is done and a fee paid to be able to post an RVIA sticker. Keeps everyone honest.
Used to be in California a Department of Housing sticker required that the coach be built to standards.
Allowed the Rv to be tax deductible as a second or primary home and, if memory serves me, if a insurance incident occurred would verify the coach was legally built.
Only coaches I knew of that did not have a RVIA sticker was the older Matt Perlot built safari's.
Matt refused to pay and/or build to industry standards.
Not legal to offer for sale in ca. long ago any house or Rv that did not have a doh sticker.
Had to lock coaches up sometimes until a DOH sticker came to my Foretravel lot.
Bob,
Does Newell have RIVA and /or DOH?
The RVIA sticker is something RVIA sells to manufacturers in order to raise funds for the GoRVing ad campaign and lobbying activities. It's entirely self-certification by the RV manufacturer that they "built to RVIA standards", so there is no official inspection/quality guarantee and there is no documentation of what these "standards" are. Greg Garber covered it quite well in one of his articles RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 6: Associations can influence change | RV... (http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-industry-death-spiral-part-6-associations-can-influence-change/)
IIRC, some of the smaller volume manufacturers don't participate in this sticker program. None of the Prevost conversions I've seen have an RVIA sticker. I have never heard of any entity that checks for it, except a few anecdotal reports of RV parks using it to keep out home built units.
Lack of an RVIA sticker would not dissuade me from owning a Newell (or any other well built coach) if in fact they don't participate in the program. Presence of an RVIA sticker would not make me any more or less confident in a coach, especially in your case where paint was involved.
I moved up from a Safari, which had aluminum and stainless steel sides. Some of the coaches had problems with electrolysis which rotted the metal (think rust), usually from the inside out, creating problems. The front and rear caps were painted fiberglass, as opposed to gel coat. The paint held up much better on the aluminum. The aluminum was lighter than fiberglass, so in that respect, I would expect the Newell to be lighter, assuming same gauge metal. That's about all that I can add, since I know very little about the Newell.
Interesting that in his article he does state there are standards and that they are not public.
I remember reading them long ago at .Foretravel. Public info then. R values and such
That's why I knew they did exist at one time and my buddy Bill mentioned that he had interfaces with the RVIA long ago at Vogue.
I
Regarding corrosion:
I have seen the corrosion on older Newells as well. It happens on the lower portion where the aluminum is fastened to the steel framework. Above floor level they are all aluminum so the corrosion is minimal if at all. Since Newell changed to the 3m adhesive to hold the aluminum to the frame the corrosion is rare. I have also seen delamination on vacuum sealed fiberglass panels used on cheaper RV's. I have not seen a Foretravel with delamination but I must admit that I have not seen very many Foretravel coaches. Is delamination something one should look for on a Foretravel?
This one does appear to have it, but, geez, how old is it?
I used to carry a rubber mallet to appraise "pebbled" aluminum skinned coaches, thump on the walls to show the dry rot wood in the walls and the cancer that the metal had.
Had forgotten that particular reason why I am not an aluminum skin owner among others.
I scrape branches along the sides sometimes in tight campsights.
Paint and metal restrict my options. Still an rv'er I guess.
On non expensive rv's I learned to pay less for non fiberglass, non laminated sidewalls.
Exception was Beaver. Two separate wall sctructures. Painted multi layered exterior skin was free hung over the laminated welded aluminum framed inner wall. Perfectly flat exterior walls in all weather in or out of the sun. Pastel sikkens paint
The old FTX had 3m yellow weather striping adhesive to hold the skin on.
Not sure when but I think foretravel changed to a urethane adhesive like the one that bonds wood to rubber.
Most brands ran their sidewalls through a pinch roller to attach the skin.
Too many hours to bag a sidewall up and let the foam adhesive setup for any other other than the high line coaches.
No one made free hung aluminum skinned coaches except when first starting out manufacturing rv's.
Too much flex. Hence the shimmed cabinets next to the sidewall and extra steel down low trying to stop the flex
Building the sidewalls on a complete chassis as you go allows for larger variations in the decks flatness.
Monaco put their sidewall next to the chassis not on top. And put the carpet under the cabinets to stop noises and take up dimensional variations by hiding them under the carpet.
No gimp molding visible at the cabinet/ceiling joint that way
As a buddy of mine says - there is a butt for every seat. Mine just happens fit a Foretravel seat the best.
If you can spare the time (and expense), take a trip to Motor Homes of Texas to look at, and walk through, both a used Foretravel and a used Newell. Test drive them. Run the systems.
When I was there I walked through several of each and noticed things that you won't see in photos, and with other people describing it.
As others said, the Newells are more complicated coaches.
For example, some Newells can have have duplicate or triplicate control centers: one above the driver area, one in the living area, and a few in the bedroom area. That's a lot of wiring, and information to process!
Newells can have steering trim systems that help you dial in the steering if there are cross winds, etc. A really neat feature, but also an additional system that could need work.
The interior design of each is aimed at very different customers. You have to see them in person to get a feel of what you like. To me, Foretravel builds interiors that you could find in a lot of people's home. The interior ceilings in Foretravels are lower. Newell builds interiors that have taller interior ceilings, are shiny inside (almost all the interior surfaces reflect light), and..., well, you just gotta walk through a few because they can be very different.
The used Newells that I looked at were priced close to used Foretravels but the Newells were heavily used and needed much more cosmetic work both inside and out than the Foretravels of the same price. The used prices of each brand may be close, but this is where you need to physically walk around each and look at them with the intent of finding flaws to get an idea of the work (and cost) each will require.
Chris
Howdy gang,
I have had 4 coaches. the last two are newells. and btw, i really like foretravels, many of my friends have them.
owning a high end coach is a mixed bag of joys. for sure my 2002 newell is way more complicated than my 1990 was. and even newer ones are much more so. i suspect the same for the foretravel. my 90 was a 38 ft no slide. my 02 is 45 ft and 2 slides.
have i ever had to repair my coach on the road? yes. did i do that as much when i had a monaco executive? yes.
i do most of the work myself if possible. any of our coaches get really pricey if you have to pay someone to work on them everytime.
i have not had the many issues that have been listed here. i have had some of them and worked through them. we have a similar forum as this and it is a huge benefit for help and friendship.
my coach was an indy car owners coach and then later was owned by another indy team. it had 190k miles on it when i got it. i have put another 20k on it and it purrs like a kitten. as you can see from my avatar, it is almost all white with stripes and the interior is very light grayish. i also have a 7 1/2' ceiling which i really like as i am a big boy. btw, a nascar driver just sold his newell he had for many years for a new one. race teams in general are not churning coaches as much anymore.
i would be happy in a foretravel if i had one. i would be happy in a prevost if i had one and i am happy in my newell.
just having one of these fantastic machines is a joy. i am headed out on a week long trip tomorrow and i just get a smile on my face thinking about it.
just remember, there is nothing a credit card and your warranty plan (meaning you and your tools) cant fix.....ha
life is good in one of our coaches isnt it?
tom
one other thing crossed my mind this morning. it really is NOT Foretravel VS Newell. it is Foretravel OR Newell OR any other high end coach. i am a zealot of well built, high end coaches of any brand. i have a newell and therefore am a zealot for newells. but i appreciate all of them.
forums are a great place to share information and build friendships. my wife and i often say that we were surprised to get a whole new bunch of friends when we got a newell. i can see it is the same with the foretravels.
thanks for the warm welcome to your forum. if any of you pass through the phoenix metro area, give me a shout and stop by.
tom
^.^d Welcome Tom and Darlene! And may I extend a "thank you" as one of the many who have taken advantage of your sourcing for the HWH plunger kits!
Michelle (and Steve) - hosts/admins of Foreforums