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Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 26, 2016, 11:49:20 am

Title: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 26, 2016, 11:49:20 am
Yesterday I changed the oil and all the filters in my Cummins

The primary fuel filter/water separator with the plastic bowl underneath that I removed had all but two or three of the inlet holes
blocked up with small black (highly irregular in shape) chunks of an almost rubber-like material that can be disintegrated between
your fingers with a bit of work.

At first I thought it was pieces of an old gasket, but now I'm not sure.  Whatever it is it doesn't go beyond the inlet side of the filter,
but I'm wondering what it is and why didn't the engine act sluggish, etc.

I will try and get a picture up. 
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Bill Willett on September 26, 2016, 11:52:54 am
Sounds like you have bad fuel lines.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 26, 2016, 12:01:32 pm
There we're a lot more chunks before I dug them out.  The fuel line is a good possibility.
There is a big rubber covered button mounted on the filter bracket/housing at the top. It appears to be maybe a bleed or purge valve that toy activate by depressing.  That may have rubber components inside that are deteriorating.  Cheaper fix,  but probably the lines.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: John44 on September 26, 2016, 12:15:20 pm
Could be algae,you probably caught it in time,run some algae remover thru fuel tank , I would change the secondary also.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: wolfe10 on September 26, 2016, 12:37:46 pm
If slimy= algae

If granular and hard-- likely disintegrating fuel line.

Other possibility is asphaultene.  Cummins (Fleetguard) sells a product to dissolve it. Just do a search for "Fleetguard asphaultene".

Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: John44 on September 26, 2016, 12:41:45 pm
Cut the filter apart and look at the paper element.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 26, 2016, 01:59:07 pm
It's algae.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 26, 2016, 02:32:12 pm
Nasty part of algae is one you kill it, the "stuff" is still in the tank. I was OK for three years after the event, but once tank was removed to replace fuel lines, the algae on the bottom was disturbed and got under the intake for the aqua hot. Was causing enough grief, I elected to remove tank here in Gig Harbor RV park and have a local tank specialist cut two holes in the top of the tank and in the internal baffles so that he could clean tank, Problem solved. Did not effect Generator (was some in the filter after the fuel line replacement, or main engine.

Keep the faith TMan, hopefully you got it cheap enough that all this is not a big deal other than the hassle. Sometimes bargains are not so much so, especially if the work is such that you have to pay a specialist to do it.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: wolfe10 on September 26, 2016, 02:36:25 pm
Add the kill dose of Biobor Jf Fuel Additives - Products (http://www.biobor.com/products/biobor-jf-fuel-additives/)

This prevents further growth, but you will need to remove the dead algae that is in the fuel system.

And, yes, you will need to change filters, as the dead algae is filtered out.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: ltg on September 26, 2016, 02:51:13 pm
Starbrite makes a fuel tank cleaner named Startron that is an additive based on enzymes. It will disperse hardened deposits and send them to the fuel filters. Once used, it will require a lot of filter changes before the tank is cleaned. It is an alternative to fuel polishing and tank cleaning. Google Startron. I used it in my long distance diesel trawler. It worked for me. I cannot of course say if it will work for you. But it may be worth a try before you decide to remove the fuel tank or go to other drastic measures.
Larry
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 26, 2016, 03:02:27 pm
tank guy said add a kill dose of biocide with every fill up. I said, "amen"....
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 26, 2016, 03:05:55 pm
I did use startron, didn't get it done for me, others results may vary
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 26, 2016, 03:40:06 pm
There is no trace of algae in either the Genset or Aqua Hot primary fuel filters.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 26, 2016, 03:49:27 pm
Suspect nozzle issue first. Maybe fuel pump (driven by fan interval to AH BTW), slight chance controller board. Any smoke (white or black) when it runs? Hot water and heat should be same if running on diesel. Water will stay hot on electric, Nimura element won't hear coach or continuous hot water
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 26, 2016, 11:02:05 pm
Think I'll buy a case (6) of filters and head for the blues festival in Arkansas, then keep our appointment in Coach Buck City on
10-11.  If the engine quits I'll know what to look at, and if it doesn't I'll check the filter in NAC.

Need dual filters that can be isolated, then when one fills up with algae switch to the other.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: John Haygarth on September 26, 2016, 11:59:22 pm
Tman,
Now that (duals) would be both a good idea and a simple one to set up, well done for thinking of it. Of course the end result would be the same-clogged up- but in both, although you would/should be able to drive a bit further  and hopefully get to a safe place or even a Diesel shop for help.
Another idea would be to have a second tank with known clean fuel, say about 20 galls size to feed the 2nd filter. Just in case??
JohnH
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Jet Doc on September 27, 2016, 12:15:38 am
"Shock treatment" or lethal dose of Biobor JF is recommended by most aircraft manufacturers every 6-8 months depending on inspection schedules.  Great stuff, but keep a spare primary filter and a gallon of fuel to fill it with handy if not done regularly.  Ask me how I know this.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: John44 on September 27, 2016, 01:43:43 am
Have worked on many rental generators with Racor dual filter setups,they use a amber bowl so you can see the filter condition.
Can easily be set up.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on September 27, 2016, 06:58:46 am
                         Did you coin a phrase or what------ " Coach Buck City " ------I like that a lot .  really strikes a cord with me . It fits pretty darn good .        Brad Metzger
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Roy Dameron on September 27, 2016, 08:26:51 am
Cummins Central Power Coach Care in Kansas City will treat your tank and polish the fuel for about $400. I had them do that and it totally took care of the problem. 

Roy
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 27, 2016, 08:31:58 am
tank guy said add a kill dose of biocide with every fill up. I said, "amen"....

Done!
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: D.J. Osborn on September 27, 2016, 10:41:53 am
tank guy said add a kill dose of biocide with every fill up. I said, "amen"....

We add Biobor JF with every fill-up unless we're on a trip where we'll be going through a tank of fuel in a week or less. It's inexpensive insurance against a most-undesirable event!
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Michelle on September 27, 2016, 11:52:13 am
We add Biobor JF with every fill-up unless we're on a trip where we'll be going through a tank of fuel in a week or less. It's inexpensive insurance against a most-undesirable event!


Same here.  Used to use Lucas BioMedic but haven't seen it in market in a long time.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 27, 2016, 01:18:24 pm
There is a big rubber covered button mounted on the filter bracket/housing at the top. It appears to be maybe a bleed or purge valve that you activate by depressing,

Anyone know what the button does?
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: wolfe10 on September 27, 2016, 01:30:49 pm
There is a big rubber covered button mounted on the filter bracket/housing at the top. It appears to be maybe a bleed or purge valve that you activate by depressing,

Anyone know what the button does?

If it looks like this, it is a primer pump: Racor 490R-RAC-01 FF/WS ASSEMBLY MARINE GASOLINE (http://racorstore.com/racor-490rrac01-gas-f-w-sep-filter-assy-with.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=126662320888&gclid=CPXPtr6JsM8CFYlkhgodyEUAcQ)
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 27, 2016, 01:41:36 pm
Thanks Brett.
Now I don't have to carry diesel fuel in a small jug to fill a new filter.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Bill Willett on September 27, 2016, 03:31:47 pm
Thanks Brett.
Now I don't have to carry diesel fuel in a small jug to fill a new filter.
You will if you have to fill one for a generator or Aqua hot, ask me how I know, helping a friend.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 27, 2016, 05:41:25 pm
I took the old filter to my friend who is a diesel mechanic and he said it was algae, but I'm not totally convinced that it isn't  asphaltene as Brett suggested, or a combination of both.  I'd never heard of asphaltene before, but after reading about it
and seeing a picture of it I'm not so sure it isn't. 

Anyway, the fuel tank is almost full (we fill up about 20 miles from home when returning) and has had Hammonds Biobor JF added
in the shock/kill amount, instead of the maintenance dose I normally use.  I am getting two quarts of this tomorrow; 
Amazon.com: Penray 105032 Total Diesel Fuel System Cleaner - 32-Ounce... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G4TWBDA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
and start using it along with the Biobor  at every fill-up.

With the Biobor, Penray and a case of new filters we should be covering all the bases, but probably not.  Something else always
arises.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 28, 2016, 08:06:00 am
10 micron filter. Stuff can get through that can clog nozzle. Any smoke, black or white
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on September 28, 2016, 08:46:16 am
10 micron filter. Stuff can get through that can clog nozzle. Any smoke, black or white

None.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Jet Doc on September 29, 2016, 12:16:54 am
When I first Biobor-ed my system, I noticed no abnormalities for several thousand miles (maybe 6 or 7).  Coming back from southern Missouri with a few "hills" power was a bit off.  About 25 miles from home, on flat ground, I noticed some hesitation when I pulled out to pass.  As i was showing 1/4 tank, I wondered if I was running out of fuel.  Fueled up, but the same problem next outing.  Checked primary fuel filter drain and found a lot of gunk.  When I replaced the filter shortly after, I found large flakes of tan colored gelatinous goo in the inlet holes of the primary filter.  I can only assume this came from the tank.  I keep using Biobor and have a spare filter and fuel to fill it in case of unscheduled roadside maintence.  ,
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: speedbird1 on September 29, 2016, 03:14:05 pm
Biobor is used on jet and turbo-prop  aircraft at regular intervals and especially when moving one that has been standing or in storage for any length of time.  It dissolves the goop that forms from Algae and the water that is always present in jet fuel.  Even with daily water drain checks it is still there but doesn't cause any trouble until it stands for a long time.  After treatment it takes several filter changes to remove all of it depending of course how bad it was in the first place.  We only carry about 200gal or less in our RV's, but a jet can carry several tons even when almost empty.

Also if not treated the goop will cause corrosion in alloy tanks or the inside of wings with wet tanks so needs to be watched.

Speedbird 1.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 29, 2016, 03:31:23 pm
Agree. Boats have steel tanks, even more Olof a problem of corrosion from algae
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on September 29, 2016, 03:43:52 pm
Now you guys have me freaked-out. My files shows my tank was treated last in 2014, yikes! Would one hope that being a Southwest,coach, the chance of "intrusion" is less as there is not the moisture to contribute to algae growth. So, do both filters get changed, on and on until they look good?  ???
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: wolfe10 on September 29, 2016, 03:58:07 pm
Mike,

If there is ever dew, that means the temperature has dropped to the point where condensation will occur.  Same inside the fuel tank.  That is why it is strongly recommended that you keep the tank FULL when not on the road.  Better to have 95 gallons of diesel and 5 gallons of air (that could condense) than 50 gallons of diesel and 50 gallons of air.

If you don't see black in the clear bowl primary filter, you do not have a problem.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on September 29, 2016, 04:11:08 pm
If you don't see black in the clear bowl primary filter, you do not have a problem.

I love it when you talk dirty to me, Brett.  Where is the "clear bowl primary filter"?
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: wolfe10 on September 29, 2016, 04:43:54 pm
Mike,

You really need to come to one of my Maintenance Seminars and/or get a complete mechanical inspection!

This is one the very basic things-- that cost very little if done, but can cost Coach Bucks if not done.

Open the door behind the passenger's rear wheel.  You will see it there-- the only one with a clear bowl.  Should be golden color ONLY-- no debris and no layer.  A layer at the bottom with golden fluid above would indicate WATER.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on September 29, 2016, 05:15:23 pm
You will see it there-- the only one with a clear bowl.  Should be golden color ONLY-- no debris and no layer.  A layer at the bottom with golden fluid above would indicate WATER.

As Joni Mitchell wrote, "we are stardust, we are golden". Cleaned off the lower housing clear bowl, I'm golden!  ^.^d
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on October 14, 2016, 10:42:02 am
We're in Coach Buck City now and still no sign of impurities in any primary filter bowl, but I may pull the engine filter off when we get home next week just to have a look.

The new Fleetguard filters I bought are a different design.  There is no metal plate on the bottom so you can see the pleated filter element, which may make it easy to remove
and inspect without having to cut the canister.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Jimmyjnr on October 29, 2016, 12:33:33 am
Think I need to tackle fuel filters , I believe the water separator filter is behind rr wheel above start batteries, do I just change filter or filter and base ?
Where do I find second filter ?
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: craneman on October 29, 2016, 12:35:17 am
Think I need to tackle fuel filters , I believe the water separator filter is behind rr wheel above start batteries, do I just change filter or filter and base ?
Where do I find second filter ?
On the engine passenger side.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Jimmyjnr on October 29, 2016, 12:41:27 am
Do I need to change base on primary filter ( think I read that a while back ) and should both filters be primed with diesel?
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: amos.harrison on October 29, 2016, 07:17:48 am
You don't need to change the base.  Don't pre-fill the filters if you have a priming system on the primary, yes if you don't.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: wolfe10 on October 29, 2016, 09:11:14 am
Agree with Brett.

Just find the correct filter element that fits the OE base.

And, as he said, whether to pre-fill the filters (particularly the secondary filter) depends on how your system is primed.  If you have the ability to prime, indeed install DRY.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on October 29, 2016, 11:06:59 am
I'm home now after almost 2000 miles of driving and the bowls are still clear. May not even change the Cummins primary.

Still thinking it was asphaltene (Thanks Brett).
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: nitehawk on October 29, 2016, 11:46:37 am
Just a little suggestion I posted earlier when I had my fuel blockage problems. I changed BOTH fuel filters about 9 times during the summer.
I got tired of fuel running down my arm while unscrewing the filters. So I got my nice big screwdriver, placed a cheap light colored pail under the filter, and then punched a hole in the bottom of the filter and quickly removed my screwdriver & hand. Very little fuel on me and by using a light colored pail I got to see what the filter had captured in its bottom.
Believe me, one gets pretty good after four or five times of changing filters!!
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on October 29, 2016, 12:01:24 pm
I changed BOTH fuel filters about 9 times during the summer.

I missed your post/thread, but am curious: what did you find that caused so many filter failures?
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: nitehawk on October 29, 2016, 12:09:54 pm
About 3" of "stuff" in the 5/8" diameter suction line blocking the check valve mounted on the primary filter bracket.
Pressure at the injectors was supposed to be 75 PSI. It was only 1 PSI.!!
Algae? Poor fuel? Deteriorating fuel line? Rust in the fuel tank?
Don't know just what it was but they gave the fuel tank a MAJOR "kill" dose of algae treatment. Something called Biogard plus 6 by Valvetect. One quart treats 375 gallons. The 32 oz bottle I have here on my desk has a $21.00 price tag on it.
Seems to have worked, as no problems since they fixed, unplugged, and treated the delivery system.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: amos.harrison on October 30, 2016, 08:18:57 am
Nitehawk,

Even easier to barely loosen the filter, slip a ziplock bag over the filter, spin off, pour off fuel for disposal, zip bag closed and dispose properly.
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: toyman on October 30, 2016, 10:12:04 am
Great idea Brett!
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on January 19, 2017, 10:41:14 am
To get here to SW Florida from Tennessee I racked up another 800 miles on the FT, and all the primary fuel filter bowls are still clean.

I'm thinking now that my initial problem was asphaltene as Brett suggested, and the Penray took care of it.

Thanks again Brett!
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on January 19, 2017, 11:14:14 am
Fueling from a station with above ground tanks is always riskier as the temp changes invites condensation with possible water in the fuel. Below ground tanks see very little temp change in comparison.

Biodiesel will absorb some water compared to petro diesel. Averages 6.5x and up to 20x as much water as diesel. It does it on a molecular level and is more difficult to remove. Possible damage is from filters to pitting pistons in extreme cases.

Check the see-through filter on the bottom of the primary filter after filling and while idling or better yet, at the next rest stop.

Pierce
Title: Re: Fuel Filter Clog
Post by: oldgrayrider on January 19, 2017, 06:26:51 pm
There is no trace of algae in either the Genset or Aqua Hot primary fuel filters.
I think those fuel pickups are higher than the primary fuel pickup.