Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Sven and Kristi on November 01, 2016, 03:55:52 pm
Title: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 01, 2016, 03:55:52 pm
Seems like I keep coming back to this site. I had to move the coach back to the side of the house after putting it on the driveway this morning. It started up and just as I was completely out of the drive way and onto the cul de sac, it sputtered, blue some gray smoke and quit. It would not start after several attempts. We had spent three weeks on the road where we had no issues with the engine and we returned three days ago. I've started it up each day with no problems. Air in the line, fuel pump.....?
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John44 on November 01, 2016, 04:04:27 pm
If its turning over and has fuel to engine it should start,check for loose fuel filters,could the fuel filters be ready for a change?
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 01, 2016, 04:11:56 pm
The fuel filters are new and I used a dip stick to check the fuel level. I'm trying to locate the fuse to fuel pump.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Chuck Van Tassel on November 01, 2016, 04:23:19 pm
Fuel solenoid?
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on November 01, 2016, 04:29:51 pm
A mark of a good coach, is it fails in a place where it can be taken care of, without Cops, tow trucks or Bubbas RV. ^.^d I mean that in a positive way.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 01, 2016, 07:04:53 pm
Update: On Richard Bark's suggestion, I opened the valve at the bottom of the secondary filter and found it to be empty. I had an eight of a tank (dash gauge) and used a dip stick to verify fuel (showed 6") prior to checking the fuel filter. I added another 13 gallons of diesel, primed and started it, twice. Each time it started up and ran for about 30 seconds before shutting down. If the fuel line had a leak, I would not expect the priming operation to work. Any other thoughts? And, yes, I'm really glad that it happened at home. Not ready to put any "happy face" emoticons on just yet.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Don Rickey on November 01, 2016, 07:36:18 pm
All right, this is a long shot and based solely on the freak thing that happened on my trip home after purchasing our 2007.
Assuming you have a generator supplied by the same fuel tank, check to make sure the fuel lines were not swapped when initially installed. To my knowledge, this only happened on some of the 2007 builds. Would go undetected until the tank fuel level dropped below 1/4. At that point, the generator should suffer fuel starvation. This is because the fuel line, if installed correctly, is located higher in the tank. The logic is this would alert you to a low fuel situation, with 1/4 tank supplying you with enough fuel to get to a refill site. On my 2007, the lines were swapped when the coach was built. This resulted in the engine cutting out at 1/4 tank, while the generator would start right up and purr happily away. Problem solved, once detected and the fuel lines reconfigured to what they should have been.
Like I said, a long shot but you never know.
Hope this helps.
Don
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Michelle on November 01, 2016, 08:31:54 pm
I had an eight of a tank (dash gauge) and used a dip stick to verify fuel (showed 6") prior to checking the fuel filter. I added another 13 gallons of diesel, primed and started it, twice. Each time it started up and ran for about 30 seconds before shutting down.
How level is the parking area for the coach? The tank has a pretty large footprint and depending on where the fuel pick up is, you could still be dealing with something as simple as too little fuel in the tank, especially given turbulence when fuel returns to the tank.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 01, 2016, 08:33:30 pm
All right, this is a long shot and based solely on the freak thing that happened on my trip home after purchasing our 2007.
Assuming you have a generator supplied by the same fuel tank, check to make sure the fuel lines were not swapped when initially installed. To my knowledge, this only happened on some of the 2007 builds. Would go undetected until the tank fuel level dropped below 1/4. At that point, the generator should suffer fuel starvation. This is because the fuel line, if installed correctly, is located higher in the tank. The logic is this would alert you to a low fuel situation, with 1/4 tank supplying you with enough fuel to get to a refill site. On my 2007, the lines were swapped when the coach was built. This resulted in the engine cutting out at 1/4 tank, while the generator would start right up and purr happily away. Problem solved, once detected and the fuel lines reconfigured to what they should have been.
Like I said, a long shot but you never know.
Hope this helps.
Don
Richard mentioned this - he may have remembered you talking about it in the past. One way to check is to run the generator. On our trip, I did allow the fuel level to drop below where it was this morning, without any repercussions. At that fill up, I put in 155 gallons which would translate into about 40 gal. at the start of the fill up. I am suspecting the fuel pump at this point. Does anyone know the location (don't say it is inside the tank)?
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: red tractor on November 01, 2016, 08:34:23 pm
Could also be the racor primary fuel filter if you still have the factory installed one
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John44 on November 01, 2016, 08:34:53 pm
Wife mentioned while at the driving school class they pointed out that if you have a 150 gallon tank you only have a usable 120 gallons,is built that way to contain sediment.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John Haygarth on November 01, 2016, 10:56:12 pm
John's comment is sound as just recently I was trying to figure out how many gallons would be in every inch of fuel. I looked at the drwg of tank and my 149 US gallon tank can only hold 135 galls +-. So this had been throwing my calculations out some. The problem being that the filler neck is 3" below the top of tank thereby losing the difference. Is it possibly part of problem as going to 1/8th on gauge may be way too low. Why not get a few Diesel containers and fill them then dump it in tank, and I would buy at least 20 galls before trying it again. JohnH
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Caflashbob on November 01, 2016, 11:24:37 pm
If you have any fuel line leaks the low fuel level will amplify them
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on November 01, 2016, 11:34:53 pm
John's comment is sound as just recently I was trying to figure out how many gallons would be in every inch of fuel.
I use 6 gallons per inch (in our 148 gallon tank) = 133 gals to the filler neck, and figure I can burn 100 gals and still stay above 25% fuel reserve.
What are the dimensions of the 194 gallon tank?
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: wolfe10 on November 02, 2016, 09:08:29 am
Just a note to all about fuel level:
With all modern diesel engines, for every gallon of fuel pumped to the engine, only a small amount is burned.
The rest is used to cool and lubricate fuel injection components and in some engines, parts of the head.
Foretravels have enclosed tanks, so little cooling happens in the tank compared with most coaches.
The lower the fuel level, the warmer the fuel (feel the tank after driving with low fuel level on a hot summer day)! Yes, some owners have added a fuel cooler to the fuel return line, and some late-model coaches could have been fitted with one from the factory.
So, where possible, run on the top half of the tank-- better for the engine.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 02, 2016, 10:31:17 am
Everyone seems to be suggesting that it is a low fuel problem. Logic "tells" me that having an additional 13 gallons over what it previously ran on would eliminate that as a problem. The only thing I've done to the coach is flip the two switches under the dash that I previously described (separate subject with that heading) - could one of them be a fuel shut off? I will give FT a call today.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: wolfe10 on November 02, 2016, 10:45:48 am
Sven,
My post immediately above (#14) was not directed at a diagnosis of your issue, but merely a point of information about "best practices" when it comes to fuel levels.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John44 on November 02, 2016, 10:54:45 am
I would put those switches back to the position that they were in when coach was running,sounds like you have air in the fuel lines now.Good luck with Foretravel but your asking them to identify switches with no labels that a previous owner may have put in.If they are for these codes than they have nothing to do with your problem.I would somehow fill the tank then at least the fuel will be at the highest level when the engine does start and run for this short period of time.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on November 02, 2016, 10:57:31 am
I am suspecting the fuel pump at this point. Does anyone know the location (don't say it is inside the tank)?
Sven asked this question up above, and has not received an answer. I don't have the same engine, so I can't help him, but I'm also curious. He obviously has fuel in his tank, above a level where it was previously running. If the engine won't run, fuel pump seems to be the next logical item to investigate.
SO, where is the fuel pump on a 2000 model U320?
I assume it is electric, controlled by the engine computer, with some sort of fuel pressure signal inputs. Seems like there would be several places ripe for potential (electrical) failure. Any experience out there with replacing or trouble-shooting this pump?
EDIT: Above assumption was totally incorrect. :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 02, 2016, 11:05:19 am
My post immediately above (#14) was not directed at a diagnosis of your issue, but merely a point of information about "best practices" when it comes to fuel levels.
I understood.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: jcus on November 02, 2016, 11:22:56 am
Sven asked this question up above, and has not received an answer. I don't have the same engine, so I can't help him, but I'm also curious. He obviously has fuel in his tank, above a level where it was previously running. If the engine won't run, fuel pump seems to be the next logical item to investigate.
SO, where is the fuel pump on a 2000 model U320?
I assume it is electric, controlled by the engine computer, with some sort of fuel pressure signal inputs. Seems like there would be several places ripe for potential (electrical) failure. Any experience out there with replacing or trouble-shooting this pump?
Not sure on 2000 ism, but believe earlier ones had no electric pump, only engine driven mechanical pump. There is an electric priming pump on some units for filling fuel filters and venting air from fuel lines.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: craneman on November 02, 2016, 11:38:24 am
Only mechanical pump on ISM When I replaced my fuel line from tank to engine pump there was only filter and water separators between them.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on November 02, 2016, 12:22:38 pm
Only mechanical pump on ISM When I replaced my fuel line from tank to engine pump there was only filter and water separators between them.
My Google search agrees with Craneman. I found this video showing a Cummins mechanical pump for ISM. Sven: does it look familiar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWIrffjsUEA
The round red thing bolted to the pump is a electric solenoid, which apparently can fail, causing a no-start condition. Just watch the first 2 or 3 minutes of this clip - the rest is irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y0Mjsy8nUk
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John Haygarth on November 02, 2016, 12:30:08 pm
Everyone seems to be suggesting that it is a low fuel problem. Logic "tells" me that having an additional 13 gallons over what it previously ran on would eliminate that as a problem. The only thing I've done to the coach is flip the two switches under the dash that I previously described (separate subject with that heading) - could one of them be a fuel shut off? I will give FT a call today.
Sven, reason for me using that as a possible event is that "maybe" you have been thinking as I did previously and the disparity of what you thought you had in tank (149 galls) but only (133 galls) for however long has caused you to think you have more fuel than what you actually had!. That is why I suggested you dump a pile in it (you are going to use it anyway so no waste here) and you can then remove this possibility out of the equation. Just a thought. JohnH
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on November 02, 2016, 12:30:54 pm
I found another online comment advising to check the voltage at the "fuel solenoid". Scroll down to the diagrams at the bottom of the page:
cummins isx engine that wont start..Engine turns..getting fuel (http://www.justanswer.com/heavy-equipment/4l8at-2007-international-workstar-believe.html)
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: red tractor on November 02, 2016, 03:54:11 pm
If you still have the racor fuel filter can you see fuel moving through the clear plastic cynderical filter if you have the key on and push the prime button?
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 02, 2016, 07:12:32 pm
Today I decided to end any issue of not having enough fuel in the tank and added another 20 gallons - 32 total since this started. I primed it and, as before, it cut out after about 10 seconds. I repeated and it ran a little bit longer then quit. The third time I hit the prime button when it started to stumble and it recovered. After the priming pump stopped it continued to run and every time it started to stumble, I hit the prime again until it ran on its own. That priming pump is gold! If I had done this yesterday, before adding the extra fuel, I might have had the same result, but didn't want to chance running the battery down. We backed the coach onto the property and I noticed that the HWH panel was lit up like a Christmas tree (every diode was lit - red, green, yellow). Once I shut everything down, it was all green. Ten minutes later all lights were off. This seems to be a pattern: I no sooner fix one thing when one or two other issues come up. Right now I'm going to have a Corona, celebrate today's victory and not think about the other until tomorrow. Thanks for all the helpful information.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John Haygarth on November 02, 2016, 07:36:58 pm
Sven, it was obviously low fuel at some point of your "challenges". So I think now you will have to remember about the "real" amount of fuel you have and work on the 133 or so that we mentioned.. Like Chuck I dip the tank with a piece of string with a nut on end for weight and multiply each "wet" inch by 5.6 to get a pretty accurate amount of fuel. (this is for the 149 gal tank) JohnH
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: AC7880 on November 02, 2016, 08:57:21 pm
I have a small bottle of red and yellow model paint. I paint range markers on things as I discover limitations and limits. I'd red line mark the fuel gauge from 1/8th on down, and yellow range mark 1/4 to 1/8. Protects you and any future owners from unforced errors.
Range markers are helpful on many gauges while driving - one glance and you see "out of range".
Today I decided to end any issue of not having enough fuel in the tank and added another 20 gallons - 32 total since this started. I primed it and, as before, it cut out after about 10 seconds. I repeated and it ran a little bit longer then quit. The third time I hit the prime button when it started to stumble and it recovered. After the priming pump stopped it continued to run and every time it started to stumble, I hit the prime again until it ran on its own. That priming pump is gold! If I had done this yesterday, before adding the extra fuel, I might have had the same result, but didn't want to chance running the battery down.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on November 02, 2016, 09:35:40 pm
The Tank Minder on VMSpc seems to be quite accurate for the fuel used by the engine and the gallons remaining. Add some for the gen and AH and you have a very close measure. I add fuel between 70 and 100 gallons left (195 gal tank). Never less.
My dash fuel gauge shows 1/4 to 9/16. At 1/4 there is about 75 gal left and the gauge never gets lower than that.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 02, 2016, 11:12:54 pm
The Tank Minder on VMSpc seems to be quite accurate for the fuel used by the engine and the gallons remaining. Add some for the gen and AH and you have a very close measure. I add fuel between 70 and 100 gallons left (195 gal tank). Never less.
I used this a lot on my Safari. For some reason, the VMSpc won't accept the new tank size. I enter 194 and it seems to accept it only to drop back to the 100 gal. size; once it works down to 0, it stops and I still have half a tank. Checking this out with a tech. is on my "after action (trip)" list. Had a similar problem with total trip mileage, etc, where it switches to historical figures.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John Haygarth on November 03, 2016, 12:16:02 am
Sven, when you put the tank size in (which by the way should NOT be 194) it will be more like 180 (guesstimate by me) are you then doing the click on the OK button as that usually sets it to the new figure?? JohnH
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on November 03, 2016, 07:44:18 am
The 2000 U320 has a 194 gal fuel tank.
VMSpc gets fuel use data from the engine computer not the tank sender ot the dash gauge. Another way to monitor this is to add a total fuel gauge. This will show you the total fuel used by the engine. Write it down in your log book along with total miles. Then you have used 100 gal start looking.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 03, 2016, 11:02:00 am
I'm familiar with how the VMSpc works which is why I rely on it. I attempted to reset the tank size twice and did hit the Ok, and it worked for a while. At some point it reset itself to the old parameter as it did with the trip info. I put the tank size in at 194, since that is the size in the specs. so not sure what the 180 is about - is that the volume up to the bottom of the fill neck? This experience was educational, as are all the things that haven't gone "right". I will fill up before it gets down to 50 gal. One of the reasons given for the "unusable" volume was the avoidance of sediment. I would have preferred that the pick up tube be a little low so that the sediment could be picked up and trapped by the filter, rather than to be allowed to accumulate around the bottom of the tank.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on November 03, 2016, 11:35:44 am
One of the reasons given for the "unusable" volume was the avoidance of sediment. I would have preferred that the pick up tube be a little low so that the sediment could be picked up and trapped by the filter, rather than to be allowed to accumulate around the bottom of the tank.
I feel like the avoidance of sediment is a less important function of the raised pickup tube. As you say, properly designed filters should catch the trash. Brett (earlier) mentioned the cooling function of the fuel system, and the importance of keeping some minimum amount of "unused" fuel in the tank. Perhaps this was the more important goal of the tank designers. I know our fuel tank, after a hard Interstate run in the summer with fuel down to 1/4 full, will be so hot I can't touch it for more than a few seconds.
When I was doing a Google search for your fuel pump, I saw reference to a "cooling plate" which is part of the engine ECM assembly on later model Cummins engines. Apparently, fuel passes through this plate and is used to stabilize the internal temp of the ECM. It is easy to understand why keeping the fuel in the tank above some minimum level would be important to the overall health of the engine.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: craneman on November 03, 2016, 11:39:11 am
I don't know what year they started, but my '99 has a fuel cooler with the radiator
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: John Haygarth on November 03, 2016, 11:50:16 am
Quote"put the tank size in at 194, since that is the size in the specs. so not sure what the 180 is about - is that the volume up to the bottom of the fill neck?"
Sven, YES that 180 galls is the actual amount ( give or take) that can be put into tank and not come out of the filler spout. 194 is the total volume of tank space and should never have been used in FT specs (in my opinion) as fuel capacity. It is misleading to owners who are not aware.What I was trying to explain to you earlier is that if you fill the tank 5 times you would think that there had been 5 x 194=970 galls but in reality what you have is 5 x 180=900 galls. So you can be fooled into thinking that you have around 70 galls left when in truth it is empty. Again the 180 is a hypothetical figure as I do not know what the 194 gall tank can actually hold until I see a drwg of it and figure this quantity out--but it is close. JohnH
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Bill Willett on November 03, 2016, 02:20:54 pm
When the fuel gauge is half empty I fill her up.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: wolfe10 on November 03, 2016, 02:24:45 pm
On our latest trip, I was trying to establish a correlation between our fuel gauge reading and how much fuel I actually put into the tank. My own personal rule is to use 100 gallons as the maximum amount I would ever want to burn before refueling. I was happy to find out that when my fuel gauge needle sits exactly on the "1/2" mark, I could pump exactly 50 gallons back into the tank. So in our case, even though the dash gauge is not technically accurate, it IS a perfect indicator that I have used 50% of my "useable" fuel capacity.
Unfortunately, due to non-linearity, the gauge is less useful above and below the mid point, so I use "miles traveled" as a backup. If I drive 400 miles (at 8 mpg) then I should be showing 1/2 tank on the gauge - this actually works out pretty close, in average driving conditions.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 05, 2016, 01:45:11 am
It is really tough pouring 30 gallons into the high mount fill necks using 5 gallon containers and I don't plan on doing that again. I may not fill it at the half way mark, but will start looking for fuel and not let it get near a quarter tank. With what I've learned from other's experiences here, I'm still surprised that I got below the quarter mark and added 155 gallons at one stop. My failure was using years of experience with lesser coaches. This coach has been a game changer in more ways than one.
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Michelle on November 05, 2016, 08:58:36 pm
Be aware that there are multiple implementations of the "180 usable gallon" tank.
I have seen prints that show 5 iterations over less than 2 years in the 2001-2003 timeframe.
a) Tank
b) Tank with drain removed
c) Tank with drain re-implemented
d) Tank with main engine pick-up moved to center (center being streetside-curbside midline of coach) of tank
e) Tank with ALL 3 pick-ups (engine, genset, Aquahot) moved to center of tank
Lots of variables...
Title: Re: engine stalled
Post by: Sven and Kristi on November 05, 2016, 09:07:20 pm
I'm not sure what the message was and how the five things were related to the problem.
FT has changed the design of the tank a number of times, even in a short timespan. What might work for one person on their coach even in a given year will not necessarily (unfortunately) apply to another coach of the same model year. e.g. a fuel pickup at the center of the tank will be somewhat less sensitive to unlevel than one at one side or end of the tank.
We all try to help each other with what we have learned from our own coaches, but we also need to keep in mind that what applies to our specific coach, even the same model year, might not exactly apply for the person having the issue.