We've owned our FT for all of 7 weeks, and been living in it for 2 weeks, with plans to be stationary and actively living in the coach here until April. Winter is coming, and I've done a lot of forum reading on the subject, but we are complete motorhome greenhorns, so a little reassurance would help us sleep better at night. Here is our living situation, and our plan to prevent damage due to cold weather:
Are there any other weak points in the coach that are vital to address, that I've neglected below? Any obvious changes I am missing? Anything that is obviously dangerous/wrong?
The situation:
- Living with wife and 1-year old
- Parked in a yard on a big lot. Coach is not hooked up to sewer, water, or electric.
- We are in Maryland between Baltimore and Washington DC, the worst it generally gets each winter are a few days in a row of 23 degree highs and 4 degree lows.
- 480 Watts solar, in a decent spot for winter sun, but not functioning as well as I think it would due to <"TBA">.
- Generator is fine for use at any time, nobody within generator-noise distance.
- Have access to one extension cord from the property - standard large outdoor-type extension cord rated for 1550W from covered CFGI outlet. The RV will not be plugged in to this power source.
The plan:
- We will be using the coach as a primary residence - so all systems, waterlines, etc. will be functioning and nothing will be winterized.
- Wrap the base/exterior of coach in double sided thin reflective insulation (like Reflectix). Cut large holes at engine exhaust + below generator for exhaust release.
- Put similar insulation across windshield. Put similar insulation in shower skylight.
- Use house battery / solar power only for furnace fans. After we replace&fix various system components, we can see if it will handle an additional load - but for now, the batteries are barely sufficient to run the furnace fans overnight and we won't put any additional active load on house batteries.
- Will use generator as a furnace-powering backup. Propane access is plentiful here, and my math suggests that propane will be cheaper (and less noise/labor intensive) than diesel generator + electric heat given our scenario.
- Will keep furnace set between 67-70, depending on what is too cold for the 1 year old and the exterior temps.
- Use the external extension cord power for four 200-watt heaters, portable light charging, and cellphone/laptop charging.
- Use two of these electric heaters in the house for comfort.
- Use one of these electric heaters in the water bay with a thermostatically controlled outlet.
- Use one of these electric heaters underneath the exterior of the coach, sitting on a piece of wood, will turn on manually a few hours before freezing temps hit.
- Put wireless temp sensors in water bay, under coach, and under sink to monitor temps. Any other weak spots I should monitor?
- Open cabinet doors to expose pipes only if temperature reading on sink starts to fall into the uncomfortable range.
- Will be driving a 60 mile loop approximately once a week to dump tanks, fill up water, and fill up propane (and fuel, if necessary).
- If lows are scheduled to be below 10 degrees for more than 3 days in a row - perhaps we will head to South Carolina for a week?
Thanks!
James, Erin, & little Gideon
Have you had the batteries load tested.
I've stayed over 6 weeks in my RV hooked up to a friend's 15amp outlet on his porch with 150' of extension cord. I can't suck enough amps to trip his house breaker before my progressive EMS shuts off at 104 volts. Anyway, my experience shows that having access to that power will save a ton of $$ running the generator to run the battery charger. The furnace uses quite a bit of DC juice.
At night, I can close off my bedroom and just run a oil filled electric radiator to keep me warm.
I use the 120v as much as possible to heat the hot water, but I have to ensure nothing else large is on.
Freezing isn't much of a worry in the basement unless there are multiple days of below freezing temp. And the mere use of the hot water heater and a 200W heater should be fine down there.
Look at my other thread I started about hooking up a big buddy heater and I will eventually update it regarding my project to convert my furnace into a 2stage. The furnace will suck down some propane, so be prepared. In VA, the cheapest propane I found was at Tractor Supply (used to be 1.99, it was 2.19 last time I filled).
Also, you may want to look into a little Honda EU2000i generator to run as well. But really, utilizing the 120v cord you have (even though low amp circuit) can save a ton of fuel costs in your scenario.
If you have access to a water hose to refill your tank, that will be helpful too. Provided you are careful what goes down the sink drain, you can dump the gray tank in the grass and extend time between dumps of the black. I would dump my tanks and refill my water once a week on my day off. It's only me though....water seems like it will be an issue with a family.
Direct space heating is the easiest way to minimize heating costs. Our RV are built well, but they still are not well insulated compared to most houses. Last night it got down to 28 and I turned the furnace off and closed my bedroom door and used medium on my electric oil heater. It kept the room plenty warm to sleep. When I woke up and left in the morning, it was about 35 deg on the thermometer I had sitting on my drivers seat. Once the sun comes up, it heats it up. No point in heating space I wasn't using.
Can't say enough about using a small electric fan to keep the air moving, from stratifying up by the ceiling. Amazing how much difference in heating costs it can make.
Recommend one console and eight thermometers: Ambient Weather WS-09-C Wireless 8-Channel Thermometer Console Ambient Weather F007T 8-Channel Wireless Thermometer Work very well and will prevent surprises. We found best prices at Ambient Weather web site, not Amazon.
If you have access to the electric cord that should keep the batteries charged from the charge circuit in the inverter.
Generally I think you have everything covered. Water will be you most limited resource in this scenario. Water conservation is a skill that takes some practice.
My wife and I stayed in very similar temperatures for 3 months in Boise, but we had full hookups. We used two 1500 watt electric heaters on the inside and two 200W heaters for the basement (one on each side of the water bay). I used a Thermo Cube (thermostatically controlled plug) on each one - running 100% of time is too much heat. The Thermo cubes kept the area in the 40's to lower 50's. Your water pump is the most vulnerable to freezing since it has the smallest passageways. You do need to be careful when placing the heaters so they don't cause a fire.
I don't see wrapping the coach bottom in Reflexit and driving to dump you tanks every week as a reality - way too much of a hassle. Reflective insulation works best for high temp applications. Save it for the interior windows. Also you don't have an average RV, you have a fully insulated basement.
I would suggest you start to think about backups for when something goes wrong:
- What's the plan if you furnace fails?
- Are you willing to drive in any kind of weather to dump your tanks? (most members here say they stay parked in bad weather)
Two or three 5 gallon tanks of back-up water might be a good idea.
- Is your parking spot and driveway paved? If not, will the coach sink in the ground or get stuck after it has rained a lot? (I would say likely in most soils)
- Does your water heater have a 120VAC element? (In case the propane side fails)
What you are proposing can certainly be done but, I have to admit, in my opinion, it doesn't sound very fun in the dead of winter week after week. It's a real pain dumping in cold weather: hoses and rubber are stiff, valves don't want to move, things made of plastic break easier. The closer you can get to full hookups the more comfortable you will be. Or maybe you are different and will love it.
High humidity will occur in your coach and adversely affect your comfort. Being able to reduce the humidity will probably be necessary by including the use of a dehumidifier.
I'm assuming that you have to get up and go to work every morning, otherwise Head south if you can :) :)
Warmer there.
There are others that have much more experience that we do and I hope they will chime in but this is what we can contribute.
I fully agree with others that you should use the 15 amp electric to at least keep the batteries charged. Turn off the inverter and the breakers if you are concerned about pulling too many amps from the house but I think you run one 1500 watt electric heater with the charger in float mode. Remember the solar won't help when it snows. I also agree that the reflective insulation on the outside of the coach will be of minimal help. If you use your furnace the vulnerable bays should get plenty of heat to avoid freezing. Use the 200 W cube electric heaters on thermo cubes as back up or if you are going to use something other than your furnace for primary heat. As I recall the U270 has only one furnace but if it has two make sure you are using the furnace that heats the bays when the outside temps will be below freezing. On my U225 it was the front furnace. On my U300 the bays are heated by the rear furnace. Be aware that the generator may run out of fuel somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 tank on the gauge. The tanks pickup for the generator fuel is higher than the engine fuel pick to make sure your generator will not run you out of fuel so the engine won't start.
I use 1/2" flexible foam inside the water bay doors, on both sides of the coach. Again not sure of your configuration but the added insulation should help prevent surprises. I use the reflective bubble wrap on the inside of the windshield, the rear living room window and the bedroom windows, the shower skylight, bathroom vent and kitchen vent. We have been below 10 degrees a number of times with no problems
Regarding dumping, when at my cabin I use a FloJet Waste pump, Amazon.com: Flojet 18555-000A, Portable RV Waste Pump, 12 Volt DC, Macerator,... (http://www.amazon.com/Flojet-18555-000A-Portable-Macerator-Carrying/dp/B001HKZHIW), and a 100 foot, 3/4" heavy duty water hose to dump the tanks. If the house has a sewer cleanout within your 150 of your coach and you are on level ground you may not have to move the coach except for water.
Also if you need new house batteries, I used to buy 8D lead acid batteries from Sam's Club for under $200. From my experience, if your furnace is drawing down the batteries in just one night they may need to be replaced.
What everyone said: We've done it for a month or so, almost ran out of propane running everything. Even in a full service R.V. Park, (which I'd suggest) it's an "experience", to say the least!
My suggestion;
All good suggestions here. I did a winter in Denver a few years back in a full hookup park. It was a challange almost everyday. Luckily it was a pretty mild Denver winter that year. The lowest we hit was -9º at night a few days in a row.
I agree the the Reflectix would be more trouble than it's worth. You might think about skirting to create a dead air space beneath the coach.
The cube heaters work but don't really put out enough heat in really cold temps. I used a bigger 1500w heater on low to keep the wet bay above freezing. Use your remote temp sensors to keep an eye on it. Also keeping your fresh water tank full helps. It acts like a big heat sink by absorbing the heat during the day and radiating it back out at night.
Waste water will be your main problem. Dumping your gray water on the ground is an easy solution. If you get the macerator Kent talks about you can dump it within the 150' radius that the hose will allow. I'd even consider dumping the black water if it's feasible. You would basically be fertilizing the ground. Be sure to only do this when it's above freezing. You don't want want frozen poop laying all over the place. Once you dump the black tank go over it with the gray to soak it into the ground. Also don't put toilet paper in the black tank. Have a small covered trash can to put toilet paper or duh! use your diaper pail. :) You could also use baby wipes instead of toilet paper. That's basically what those fancy "moist" wipes you see advertised on TV ALL THE %$#@* TIME!!! This may seem a little extreme but keep this strategy in your back pocket it the situation gets dire! :) You might also consider a blue boy to move your gray water around. Amazon.com: Barker 25895 4-Wheeler Tote Tank - 25 Gallon Capacity: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Barker-25895-4-Wheeler-Tote-Tank/dp/B0002F66RE/ref=sr_1_2)
Be sure you keep your dump flip down closed if possible if not stuff any open area with rags or large car wash sponges to keep cold air out of the wet bay. An infrared temp gun is great way to check for air leaks.
A temperature controlled heated water hose is advised too. Otherwise you will have to unhook, drain, and bring inside every time you need to use it. ProTip: when storing hose coil it up and screw the input end into the output end to seal it. I can't believe how many people I see coiling hoses up and putting them in plastic trash bays to keep them from leaking in the bay! Be sure to get one that has the thermostat on the hose bib end. If it's on the outlet end it will be up in the bay and not be operating on the correct outside temp. (don't ask how I know)
Amazon.com: Camco 22911 25' Taste Pure Heated Drinking Water Hose with... (http://www.amazon.com/Camco-22911-Heated-Drinking-Thermostat/dp/B01ABONB0A/ref=sr_1_2)
As nitehawk says humidity will be your enemy. Cooking is the number one contributor to this. Always have your vent fan open with a window cracked open to allow moisture a way out. Even boiling a pan of water will put moisture in the air that will migrate straight to the windows were it will accumulate and drip down to the window frame and find a way into your side walls eventually delaminating your side walls. (if you don't know yet you don't want this to happen!) :) Even if it's just a little moisture on the window overnight it can accumulate by freezing overnight and start to build up. Then on the warmer days melt and leak into your window frames. :( For this reason I'm not keen on putting Reflectix on all the windows since it will hide the moisture that's building up there. You might want to experiment with this maybe just putting up the Reflectix at night. A dehumidifier would be a good idea but with your power situation don't think it would be feasible.
You will need to keep snow off the roof. The problem with snow up there is that some heat will leak up thru the roof and melt the bottom layer of the snow during the day. At night when it gets very cold it will freeze. This wet/freeze cycle will open even the smallest weakness in your caulking eventually causing a leak. Before it snows I would inspect the roof and recaulk anywhere that looks even a little suspect. Falling off an RV roof is not recommended. If you have access to a ladder it's better cleaning snow off from it. I didn't have one so was up on the roof with a plastic snow shovel. Be extremely careful if you go up there. Before I step on the ladder I take a moment to calm down and put myself in safe mode. Once on the roof try and stay in the middle. DO NOT overreach.
Make sure you solar panels are clean and working correctly. Orient your coach to maximize exposure to the sun. Facing the windshield south will help with solar gain in the coach. Read handybobs advise on getting the most out of your panels.
HandyBob's Blog « Making off grid RV electrical systems work (http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/)
Like I said it's a lot of work but is doable. As JohnFitz says have a backup for everything! Good luck!
see ya
ken
Thanks to all for the detailed well thought out responses. Truly you are all an invaluable resource. After listening to everyone's advice and getting the landowner's OK we went ahead and got the heavy gauge extension cord needed to plug the MH directly into the 15 Amp outlet. I think my hesitation to do this was because I was overestimating the load the furnace would put on the AC source - but the running furnace plus fridge and other idle draws are 10 dc amps, or only about 120 Watts of AC load.
We'll also hold off on the reflectix skirt unless it becomes clear we had a vulnerability to address.
Not yet, but it is on the list.
You have no idea how much money this comment just saved us. Tractor Supply ended up being closer and, at $1.89/gal when we filled yesterday, over $2 cheaper than the place we were about to head. Thanks!
Tried your trick using a small usb fan we used on the baby stroller in the summer, and I really can't believe how immediately tangible tbr difference was. That fan won't run plugged in, so I put two that would in my Amazon care within the hour. Great advice. How did you position yours?
We actually had already picked up a WS-10, which is basically the same thing plus moisture readings, which will help with recognizing humidity issues. It is good to know you like yours!! Will look into a dehumidifier.
Yess, I do. But in April, I get to start working remotely at the same job, so next winter will be a lot more flexible!
Hooking up water or dumping on site is not an option. I am sure I will regret saying this, but despite the multiple warnings I feel optimistic about being able to dump, refill and refuel. We are in the suburbs between two major metropolitan centers, and even the most remote areas around here are plowed within 48 hours. We also have the rear wheels up on 4 homemade wooden leveling ramps, which should help with stuck in the mud/ice issues.
Your advice on rooftop snow is well-heeded.
The true backup plan is that we have friends with a warm house about a hundred yards away!
In all seriousness, everything you identified is valid and we will address each.
-9 sounds cold.
We are counting on it!!
If you have the original heart interface inverter that just has the on/off switch on the panel, you probably want to upgrade to the Xantrex Freedom basic remote that looks like this: http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/default/freedom-458-basic-remote.aspx
The original one does not easily allow one to adjust the charge rate of the batteries (you have to un-screw it, pull it out, and change dip switches on the back). I lucked out and bought one from Red Tractor when I first got my RV and he explained why I needed this (thanks again!). When using 15amp, you need to put the Charger on the lowest charge rate option to keep from popping the breaker (I select 5amp input). You can also turn the charger off as needed to allow AC power to be used for higher load things, like the microwave, heaters, etc.
Check the airflow in the basement from the furnace ducts. Mine does not flow much (basically none).
A dehumidifier will remove humidity and add heat to the room as well--better than opening a window.
But the area rarely gets super cold weather, so you should be fine for the winter.
The rest stop on the north bound lane of 95 as you enter Howard county has a free dump station. I've used it a couple times. Sounds like you're not too far from there. May come in handy. Might also consider a composting toilet. One can be made cheaply. There's a lot of info online. Supposed to be Oder free if done right. Good luck.
I did a post about 3 years ago about our experience in sub-zero temps in Colorado. Won't repeat it here.
I'm a belt and suspenders type. Do you have heat strips or heat pump in your A/C units in case your furnace fails? Heat pump won't do you much good when it is really cold. If you do end up having things freeze, it will be big trouble. I'd plan on about 50-60 hours max run time (actual furnace on time) on a tank of propane for the furnace. That doesn't account for the w/h. At real cold temps, I was on about a 50% duty cycle on the furnace and I was running several 1500 watt electric heaters. So in really cold weather, that's only 3-5 days between propane fills. With 50A, 1500W heaters and added bay insulation, I was able to go all electric so you could also in an emergency if you run the generator.
Good luck with your winter adventures ;-),
Rich
I carry a weeks worth of mre's in the coach so you know where I am at. Also carry a Mr Heater and 8 1 lb propane bottles.
Have never needed mre's or Mr Heater, but like to be prepared. Would not run Mr Heater without ventilation and not eat mre's, except if really hungry.
Is there an easy way to connect propane bottles to your system if you empty the propane tank?
Thanks,
Trent
Not the 1 lb bottles, but some models have a connection for a propane bbq on or near the propane tank. You can use that with a 20 lb or bigger tk. [Will probably need an adapter].
If not, you can put a "t" in your propane tank discharge line and plumb in a 20 lb bottle. Good if staying in a park and cannot get anyone to fill your tank. You can put the 20 lb tks in your car and swap out at walmart etc.
On the reverse side of that, used same bbq connection to run hose inside coach to catalytic heater off main propane tk, to use if aqua-hot went south.
Sounds like an adventure, I admire you- maybe more so your wife LOL
Good move on the 115V cord, would max use of this. :thumbsup:
Check into sewer service type companies that might offer on site service for your black/gray tanks.
Same with propane- check for propane companies that deliver. Won't be for the same price as the TSC but might be extremely handy. Very common here in Midwest-not sure about your area. Might check into getting a small tank-2 or 300 gallon- you can lease these from propane company, they might waive delivery charges if you have one of their tanks- can hook to your tank.
A weeks worth of wet weather and it won't matter how many wood blocks you have under the tires, you are going to cut some serious ruts- if you can get in and out at all. To me it would be worth a lot if the coach didn't have to move. Icy/slushy/salty roads won't be fun with the coach either.
Good luck!
Some propane companies will deliver to coaches, not all. A "Sani-Can" is a good idea, we've done it (not warm and comfy).
We did this with the propane a few years ago and it's worked fine. A ball valve at the manifold and good to go. WRONG! The bottles will not supply enough pressure to fire the gen set, so plenty of propane in the main tank is a must! ^.^d
Some propane companies will deliver to coaches, not all. A "Sani-Can" is a good idea, we've done it (not warm and comfy).
We did this with the propane a few years ago and it's worked fine. A ball valve at the manifold and good to go. WRONG! The bottles will not supply enough pressure to fire the gen set, so plenty of propane in the main tank is a must! ^.^d
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Trent and James do not have propane generators, a 20 lb bottle will supply their furnaces, cooktop and water heater.
I have both a RIGID 12 gauge 100' extension cord and a RIGID 10 gauge 100' extension cord for less voltage drop. The ten gauge would be my choice as every amp will be needed.
No other electric within 100'? Plus your power cord?
I would pay to have a neighbor set a separate meter and plug for your use if they had enough spare panel capacity.
I have a 50 amp extension cord also. 25' plus 25' plus 100 10 gauge plus 100 12 gauge.I think two 110's can be combined into a 30 amp.
Make sure the 15 amp breaker is not old and weak. Replace it if it pops at lower than rated power
The rigids are multiple strand flexible when cold fine wire and have much less voltage drop than regular cords.
$100+ cords but worth it.
Another possibility is to have an electrician install a new and higher amp circuit. Perhaps a 30 Amp circuit. This would require a 30 Amp cord.
Another possibility, if you cannot get higher power, is to try using two 15 Amp outlets and run cords from both and tie into a "spliter" also known as a "cheater". This will only work if both 15 amps are on different circuits and neither on a GFCI Circuit (ground fault circuit).The Cheater Box will not operate on a GFCI circuit. If the outlets are outside, they may be GFCI outlets, but you could check. Also check the breaker to see if really 15 amp. May have a 20 amp breaker behind the 15 Amp outlet.
Progressive Industries have them as well as Camping world etc.
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0831/1485/products/0823_Cheater_Box_front_grande.png?v=1429198188
Progressive Industries RV Surge and Electrical Protection industry lea (http://www.progressiveindustries.net)
If you have 2 15-30 adapters this would give you access to 15 Amps on both legs of your 50 Amp Cable
Another possibility is to have an electrician install a new and higher amp circuit. Perhaps a 30 Amp circuit. This would require a 30 Amp cord.
Another possibility, if you cannot get higher power, is to try using two 15 Amp outlets and run cords from both and tie into a "spliter" also known as a "cheater". This will only work if both 15 amps are on different circuits and neither on a GFCI Circuit (ground fault circuit).The Cheater Box will not operate on a GFCI circuit. If the outlets are outside, they may be GFCI outlets, but you could check. Also check the breaker to see if really 15 amp. May have a 20 amp breaker behind the 15 Amp outlet.
Progressive Industries have them as well as Camping world etc.
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0831/1485/products/0823_Cheater_Box_front_grande.png?v=1429198188
Progressive Industries RV Surge and Electrical Protection industry lea (http://www.progressiveindustries.net)
If you have 2 15-30 adapters this would give you access to 15 Amps on both legs of your 50 Amp Cable
I use a 15amp to 30amp adapter plug in at porch and then two of these 50 foot, 30amp cords: Amazon.com: Camco 55197 30 AMP 50' PowerGrip Extension Cord: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004809YBE/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Then I hook that to this cord which I use 95% of the time (cheaper to buy a whole cord than a 30amp to 50amp twist lock adapter): Amazon.com: ParkPower by Marinco 124ARV-25 RV Electrical Power Cordset... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NV2VL2/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
That is 125 feet of cord PLUS whatever wiring is inside the house. Luckily my progressive EMS cuts off when I draw too many amps and drop the voltage to 104. This is better than tripping the 15amp house breaker (and having to bother my friend to reset it).