Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Schake on December 26, 2016, 11:20:24 am
Title: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Schake on December 26, 2016, 11:20:24 am
First, some context: I have been visiting dealers, attending RV shows, reading, forums, etc for about 20 mos in preparation for retirement and buying our first coach. My goal is to go full time once we sell the house and accumulated "stuff".
I have decided to focus on older high-end diesel pushers, pulling an off-road capable toad (which I also have never owned). I plan to attend the Escapees Boot Camp in March to get a better handle on full time RVing and how to best proceed in getting a solid, well-maintained coach.
Questions: I have been drawn primarily to Foretravel, Country Coach, and Beaver. Does anyone have experiences or knowledge that would lead us to shy away from or be drawn to any of these? Or, are they generally equal quality and I just need to hush my "inner engineer monkeys"? Are there "good" years or "bad" years we should be aware of? Any and all thoughts are welcome.
Second, we prefer an automatic transmission toad, and wonder about Jeeps vs other brands. Having never owned an off-road vehicle or done off-roading, I have no clue what I need to be consider in selecting a toad. I don't anticipate doing intentionally had-core off-roading, I want to know I can deal with unexpected obstacles and get out of difficult situations we stumble into. What are your experiences and suggestions? Any model years of vehicles that we should avoid?
Tanks for your wisdom and support! Ken Wannabe getting close
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: craneman on December 26, 2016, 01:38:13 pm
As for toad, most Jeeps with 4wheel drive Cherokees, Grand Cherokees and Wrangler type ore towable with 4 wheels down. Just depends on how much off road you are referring to.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: wolfe10 on December 26, 2016, 05:15:07 pm
Schake,
Welcome to the ForeForum.
You have mentioned some good quality coaches.
Be aware that Foretravel only built ONE quality coach (upper middle, just shy of conversion coaches). Several of the others offer a wide range of qualities from lower than Foretravel to higher (in some cases).
Said another way, a Country Coach Allure is NOT the same as a CC Magna or CC conversion coach. Same for Beaver-- their entry level coaches with rear radiator, many without an air dryer, etc are clearly not in the same league. But Beaver high end coaches like the Marquis are.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on December 26, 2016, 05:37:47 pm
For one thing, and a very important thing, Beaver is not made anymore, neither is Country Coach, as goes Alpine and Airstream, plus Blue Bird. After our AS was wrecked, I looked at all the options, which were not many : Newell, Marathon Prevost, and Fore Travel. The more checking I did (especially on this forum) the more FT became the choice. Granted, no coach goes without problems, especially without proper service and attention, so buying ANY coach is dicey. I'd not buy a coach "off the lot", I'd look on this Forum and R.V. trader, which connects you with the owner. Good hunting, it's great fun out here! ^.^d P.S., Paperwork (or lack of) will make or break the deal. We paid 10k more than normal for this coach, but the four 3-ring binders listing everything done over the years convinced us.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: John S on December 26, 2016, 05:51:50 pm
Also, there are a number of off roaders on here and they tow jeeps. I would say if you are going to do hardcore stuff you will want a trailer as you will grenade stuff and the tires will not take being pulled a long way as they are softer and bigger and much more expensive. I towed a wrangler about 360K miles with no issues and took it on many offered trips but not hardcore rock crawling.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: kb0zke on December 26, 2016, 06:14:03 pm
Welcome, Ken. Doing your homework is always a good thing, especially when large dollar amounts are involved. We are full-timers, but about two years before I retired we started researching what we needed. What you need is not necessarily what we need, but your process will probably be similar to ours.
Based on your proposed plans, you are correct to be looking at high end motor homes. When we were researching I joined several brand-specific forums. I tried to join the one for Beaver, but was told that I had to own one in order to join. I promptly took that brand off of our list. I took Country Coach off the list after I found out that there is a family feud going with those who own CC. I didn't want to be part of that. They may have gotten that settled by now, but I'd rather have a coach that has a good support system behind it.
Most four-wheel-drive Jeeps can be towed four-down, but check the owner's manual to be sure. We bought our 2012 Liberty (used) specifically because, at that time, we needed a 4WD vehicle that could be towed 4 down. Naturally, after we bought the Jeep the need for it as gone away, but I think that I'll probably always have that capability - just because.
Another brand of coach you might consider is Newell. Like Foretravel, they only build high end coaches. Unlike Foretravel, every coach is a custom build, which makes servicing them somewhat of a challenge at times. Fortunately, there is an excellent forum and the company provides 24/7 phone service for all owners. Personally, their coaches are a bit garish inside for me, but to each his own.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: bbeane on December 26, 2016, 06:15:20 pm
As others have said a lot of pros and con to the brands you mentioned. The forum and the fact that Foretravel is still around makes them an up front choice. I bought ours in 2005 from a bus conversion dealer (Featherlite) the original owner traded it on a new conversion. At the time I had no idea what a foretravel was I just knew quality when I see it, we have never looked back. These old non slide coaches are hard to beat. We pull a Jeep Wrangler unlimited that is stock it has /will take you about any where you need to go by yourself, easy to set up to tow and tows good. Have fun on your hunt 🚶🌵😎
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: John Haygarth on December 26, 2016, 06:31:29 pm
I have some experience with C Coach Magna and it is a good coach. Well thought out design and placement of serviceable items. The build is very good and internal woodwork as good as any and better. We have had 3 Fts and this at the moment is my preference, as I have got used to the mentality etc that went into the design and build. One issue that I and mechanics like about the FT is the accessibility of engine and related parts. I do not know of any other make that has the wide open rear door and that and the under bed access make working on them simple (almost) Prevost conversions are good but expensive and tough to find one that does not look like a Vegas changing room. Tow vehicle we have is the Tracker and we have taken it (and previous one) into some pretty tight areas and actually drove down a very rocky river bed that started at 4000 ft and finished at 1000 ft in Mexico. I love this car as they are reliable, not expensive and tow 4 down while being auto tranny 4 WD. Lots of options. JohnH
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 26, 2016, 06:44:47 pm
What ever you get for a toad, it needs to fit your primary needs. We have a 1998 Wrangler, 6 cyl, 5 speed. (We have had three before this one) It is great for the wide range of use that it provides. There is a big difference between following a back woods trail or old road in the desert, driving in the sand dunes, following a rugged boulder strewn trail or driving in the mud (most fun). Different equipment is needed for these, different tires, winches, higher lift kits, roll cages, skid plates and more. If you want to follow those trails and less used roads and explore where most folks aren't going to drive their car then most 4WD's with some ground clearance will be OK.
An automatic is an OK choice for most uses.
Anything that is a rock crawler or sand racer is not likely going to be an easy tow. Our Wrangler is a great all purpose solution but it is not a car that we would want to have to drive several hundred mile in. The seats are comfortable but it rides like a Jeep and it is noisy.
And buying a nice $45K Grand Cherokee or more for a fancy "off road capable" something begs the question are you going to drive on narrow trails through the woods with scratchy branches doing what they do or risk rock rash? Our older Jeep has all,that and more. Badges of experience.
Spend your money on a Foretravel. An experienced Jeep will give you a chance to try it out off road with less cash up front. If it works great, if you want more comfort someone else will buy the Jeep and you can move on.
Welcome to our community. Lots of experience (and opinions) here.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on December 26, 2016, 06:55:17 pm
Prevost conversions are good but expensive and tough to find one that does not look like a Vegas changing room.
We went a ways to look at this one, pretty (outside) upon entering, the fake plastic chandeliers and the look of a operating room on steroids made our exit easy.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: jcus on December 26, 2016, 07:20:08 pm
Welcome, Ken. Doing your homework is always a good thing, especially when large dollar amounts are involved. We are full-timers, but about two years before I retired we started researching what we needed. What you need is not necessarily what we need, but your process will probably be similar to ours.
Based on your proposed plans, you are correct to be looking at high end motor homes. When we were researching I joined several brand-specific forums. I tried to join the one for Beaver, but was told that I had to own one in order to join. I promptly took that brand off of our list. I took Country Coach off the list after I found out that there is a family feud going with those who own CC. I didn't want to be part of that. They may have gotten that settled by now, but I'd rather have a coach that has a good support system behind it.
Most four-wheel-drive Jeeps can be towed four-down, but check the owner's manual to be sure. We bought our 2012 Liberty (used) specifically because, at that time, we needed a 4WD vehicle that could be towed 4 down. Naturally, after we bought the Jeep the need for it as gone away, but I think that I'll probably always have that capability - just because.
Another brand of coach you might consider is Newell. Like Foretravel, they only build high end coaches. Unlike Foretravel, every coach is a custom build, which makes servicing them somewhat of a challenge at times. Fortunately, there is an excellent forum and the company provides 24/7 phone service for all owners. Personally, their coaches are a bit garish inside for me, but to each his own.
As each Newell is custom designed by its original owner, you can find some not so garish.1995 Newell Coach Newell 45' Priced at $ 79500 (http://motorhomesoftexas.com/coachrv_images/newell_coach/1995--newell--45--C1868)
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: oldguy on December 26, 2016, 08:37:13 pm
I tow a 98 Suzuki Sidekick with an automatic trans, they are well built and easy to work on and they are light. The Trackers and Suzuki Vitaras were made up until 2004 in the true 4x4. I prefer the Suzuki 98 and older as they ride a little stiffer then the newer ones. My wife's tracker is a 2003 and drives me like a car. If I wanted anything newer I would go for the Honda Element. For off roading either automatics or standards work well, I've used both
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 26, 2016, 08:55:56 pm
2001 through 2005 Toyota RAV4 all wheel manual trans for 4 down. Toyota reliability with 200K trouble free miles on ours. Short wheelbase and good ground clearance means it goes off road well. Weighs just under 3000 lbs. No timing belt. 2.4 liters pulls heavy trailers like a mule. 2006 up don't have manual trans in the U.S. Always a pleasure to drive.
Pierce
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Gerry Vicha on December 26, 2016, 08:57:46 pm
Hi Ken, Having owned an "Airstream, Blue Bird, and currently Our Foretravel", I can attest to the fact that buying an older well maintained, high end coach is a much better choice than buying a newer mass produced motorhome. There are some well maintained low mileage coaches available that would be a great value for a new owner. Foretravel or any coach, built with the 102' body width (1992) and later would be my first consideration. The extra 6" width make a big difference in interior room. Also mid-entry or front-entry door should be considered. Slideouts are nice if you need/want extra interior room, but they can be troublesome. I like Foretravels' eight -8- out board airbag suspension, I don't know of any other manufacturer that has that. Well that's enough for now, I am sure others will add to these points. ^.^d ;) We have towed a Jeep Grand Cherokee, Jeep Wrangler and currently a Dodge Dakota 4x4, and have had no problems towing four down with any of them. (You do want to tow four (4) down!)
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: craneman on December 26, 2016, 09:28:45 pm
Like Brett stated other brands have different quality models. The '96 Monaco Signature I just sold had many Foretravel features, 8 outboard air bags, Aqua Hot 10 Kw gen. Zip Dee awnings M-11 400 hp. and 4000 series Alison. The Signatures went to 42 feet somewhere around '99 The lower models were not close to a Foretravel.
here are some pics
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: AC7880 on December 26, 2016, 11:07:07 pm
Decide what lengths of coach you want while deciding what brand. Also decide what engines and transmissions you may want. Build a wish list.
Example: We wanted 40' max. (36' to 40' is our "sweet spot"). 6 speed Allison transmission with 2 overdrive speeds. (Those 2 overdrive gears and division of 6 speed gearing makes a big difference) 2 slides max. 4 stroke diesel engine not a 2 stroke. Excellent online community to provide support. Desired but not absolutely required, company still in business. Excellent build quality and good reputation. Desired, not absolutely required: dual pane windows, screen door, good insulation. Built in washer/dryer combo or separates.
Those desires eliminated some brands, years, and models.
"Some" Bluebirds, and "many" Foretravels met our wish list.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Old phart phred on December 27, 2016, 12:45:38 am
Before I discovered foretravel, I considered rexhall, family owned with a one piece fiberglass roof. The one I looked at appeared to have good bones, just not as substantial as the FT. JMO. California based, so factory service is a long haul for most.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: John and Stacey on December 27, 2016, 07:11:16 am
We are on our 3rd Foretravel, first was a 1984 on a Roadmaster chassis, then a 1990 36' U280, Now we have a 1997 U295. Each on has had a special place in our heart an wallet. As far we are concerned, Foretravel is our coach of choice as we have lived fairly close to the factory and other qualified repair facilities that know these coaches. Have been a happy Foretravel owner for over 30 years. As far a a vehicle to tow, we have a Jeep Wrangler. Below is an article on setting one up for towing. We used this as a guideline and have been extremely happy. Wrangler Towing Upgrades (http://www.rvtechmag.com/tech/57_wrangler.php?pg=all)
John
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Blinded04 on December 27, 2016, 09:58:13 am
Consider travel plans and geographic location as well, when deciding what you need in a motorhome.
For example, we are currently full-timing in our first winter Maryland, and we were prepared to wrap our Foretravel up like little brother Randy in The Christmas Story - but after 3 straight days temperatures in the low teens, and careful placement of 8 temperature probes, we found that our furnace kept the vulnerable portions of the coach in the 40's without the use of any auxiliary heat. So FT has been exactly what we hoped for in that respect.
Would it be sufficient in Edmonton, Canada without some modifications? Surely not. Would it be overkill if we lived in Tampa Bay, FL? Of course. Maybe a 12 gallon propane tank and single pane windows would be sufficient for our winter heating needs in that region. But we don't have the luxury of relocating in the winter (yet).
Another geographic consideration would be your service options. Our travel plans this spring will revolve around at least one trip to Nacogdoches, TX - but we were planning to travel through that area anyway so it is not an inconvenience to us. However, if you live in Northern California and plan to spend retirement on the west coast, then maybe easy access to the Country Coach service center in Oregon would be more valuable to you than to someone travelling through Alabama.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Blinded04 on December 27, 2016, 10:06:05 am
Also worth nothing that, from an entirely subjective standpoint of a Foretravel owner for only three months, we couldn't be happier with our decision. Great coach, great forum - in retrospect it is clear we made the right decision based on our personal needs and available options. Don't see us owning any other company's product in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on December 27, 2016, 10:07:23 am
However, if you live in Northern California and plan to spend retirement on the west coast, then maybe easy access to the Country Coach service center in Oregon would be more valuable to you than to someone travelling through Alabama.
Very true. Same goes for Beaver, Alpine and Marathon Prevost. They were all made in the PNW and that's where the old timers that built those fine coaches still are, I hope. ^.^d
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: John Haygarth on December 27, 2016, 12:38:48 pm
and Marathon Prevost. They were all made in the PNW??? Marathon also makes them in Florida so 50/50 chance from either place. JohnH
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Caflashbob on December 27, 2016, 01:09:05 pm
A 91-92 3176 cat Marquis is a very good coach. Seen Internet people actively looking for certain floorplans.
A country coach is my other choice.
Even the allure I sold new in 96 has 250k on it.
I have a non running gear guru here in so cal for all brands. Was the Newell factory warranty guy for years. No Newell. Intense expensive service.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: John44 on December 27, 2016, 01:36:08 pm
Took me a minute to figure that last sentence out,he works on non running stuff,he still runs.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Old Knucklehead on December 27, 2016, 07:17:25 pm
Ken,
Looks like you have a sound plan. When we started out looking for a "real" motorhome, we knew some stuff in an old coach could be replaced, repaired and cleaned up, given a bit of muscle and/or rubbing money on it. Our '95 needed love and all of the above, but...hey, don't we all? Good bones, etc.
The driverside mirror in this photo, from our day of purchase, gave me something to do immediately. One missing, one wrong and one funky/unresponsive; mostly green) so, I replaced the missing mirrors at little cost from the OEM and got ready to survey my next project. I was overwhelmed then, but didn't recognize the sensation, like a calm panic after purchase. (Manufacturers abound with parts and the quality of most are really remarkable.) One step a time, right?
Window treatments, Res Fridge, AC upgrades, fuel lines, headlights and the other stuff came later. We felt that we could bring this project together before we retired on last April Fool's Day and we did. So far, so good.
Now we are painting. What fun! Floor it, Ken.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: RTG on December 27, 2016, 07:26:28 pm
The driverside mirror in this photo gave me something to do immediately. Manufacturers abound with parts and the quality of most are really remarkable. I replaced the missing mirrors at little cost from the OEM and got ready to survey my next project. One step a time, right?
One of my mirrors fell off the fixture when I was at Bernd's last summer. Fortunately it wasn't damaged. Based on the appearance of the adhesive, which appeared identical to the original basement floor, I believe it had been held on with Gorilla Glue. Melvin reattached mine with windshield adhesive - same as what they used to bond the filon to my new bottom (epoxy painted) frame. I have been remiss in posting all the renovations. I will get to it.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: coastprt on December 27, 2016, 11:09:56 pm
2001 through 2005 Toyota RAV4 all wheel manual trans for 4 down. Toyota reliability with 200K trouble free miles on ours. Short wheelbase and good ground clearance means it goes off road well. Weighs just under 3000 lbs. No timing belt. 2.4 liters pulls heavy trailers like a mule. 2006 up don't have manual trans in the U.S. Always a pleasure to drive.
I tow a 98 Suzuki Sidekick with an automatic trans, they are well built and easy to work on and they are light. The Trackers and Suzuki Vitaras were made up until 2004 in the true 4x4. I prefer the Suzuki 98 and older as they ride a little stiffer then the newer ones. My wife's tracker is a 2003 and drives me like a car. If I wanted anything newer I would go for the Honda Element. For off roading either automatics or standards work well, I've used both
Tow vehicle we have is the Tracker and we have taken it (and previous one) into some pretty tight areas and actually drove down a very rocky river bed that started at 4000 ft and finished at 1000 ft in Mexico. I love this car as they are reliable, not expensive and tow 4 down while being auto tranny 4 WD. Lots of options. JohnH
Ken, I have a '95 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4 2-door convertible with the removable hardtops. Under 3000 lbs. most states I believe do not require aux. toad brakes. I use a simple blue ox tow bar that folds up to the front bumper and safety cables instead of chains. Mine is a five speed 1.6L 16 valve, 27mpg and like JohnH's fun to drive and will go almost anywhere! I used to tow it with a 30' Minnie Winnie before the U300 and could barely feel it.
I went from 215 to 235 A/T tires on stock rims and the difference in road manners and handling was like night and day. A modest lift of about 2.5 inches will make it even better. I removed the back seat for room for the dogs and coated the bumpers, tops, and floor with Herculiner for waterproofing. We just recently traded a 99' Tahoe for an 08'Jeep Liberty 4x4 Limited with all the bells and whistles for Cindy's daily driver and future toad. The Zuki fits our needs right now.
I wouldn't dismiss an older Grand Villa U300 with a Detroit DD6V92 2-cycle mated with a heavy duty Allison transmission. It's a hard combination to beat. Just ask Pierce!
Jerry
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: gracerace on December 27, 2016, 11:17:36 pm
Some great postings on here. I was a Foretravel Tech for 3 years. I also worked on all the other brands. I still do RV repair in the summer at my home/shop. My dream was to own one some day, and now we do. We bought a well maintained 97 U295 36'.with 104K miles. It has the Cat engine. I realize the extra 4' is nice with a 40', but after driving coaches in and out of the shop, plus delivering a few to San Diego, I knew I wanted a 36'.We also tow a 22' race car trailer in the summer. As a tech, I went through the factory a few times for training. There is no doubt about the quality and serviceability of a Foretravel. IMO, the wiring is the best I have seen. I too agree that slides can be a hassle. replaced a few seals in my time. Personally, we don't care to have a slide. But I understand how popular they are. Especially if you live in one. Foretravel did an awesome job, with the air seal, and flush side. We tow a 02' Jeep Wrangler 4X4 auto, and we do some pretty serious stuff in Arizona.But not total hardcore. Our Jeep is lifted, and has 33" x 12" tires. It does require several rotations, but Les Swab does them for free.Can't tell it's there. We love driving in city traffic with it. Easy to see out, short wheel base to get around and park. I just changed from a Roadmaster Even Brake, to a Invisa brake. No more in and out of the brake. No more storage while out. I thought about a newer coach with slides and all the fancy gadgets. Decided for 1/3 the money (or more) I could have a quality coach, that will last a long time. I don't know about the newer ones, but you will not find any waffer or cardboard in a FT. Chris
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: jcus on December 27, 2016, 11:36:55 pm
Suzuki Samurai. Great around town and on the trails, but you will need a kidney belt for a long highway trip. Only weights about 2450 lbs. A trackers little brother.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: DavidS on December 28, 2016, 09:33:35 am
Tow vehicle we have is the Tracker and we have taken it (and previous one) into some pretty tight areas and actually drove down a very rocky river bed that started at 4000 ft and finished at 1000 ft in Mexico. I love this car as they are reliable, not expensive and tow 4 down while being auto tranny 4 WD. Lots of options. JohnH
Ken, I have a '95 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4 2-door convertible with the removable hardtops. Under 3000 lbs. most states I believe do not require aux. toad brakes. I use a simple blue ox tow bar that folds up to the front bumper and safety cables instead of chains. Mine is a five speed 1.6L 16 valve, 27mpg and like JohnH's fun to drive and will go almost anywhere! I used to tow it with a 30' Minnie Winnie before the U300 and could barely feel it.
I went from 215 to 235 A/T tires on stock rims and the difference in road manners and handling was like night and day. A modest lift of about 2.5 inches will make it even better. I removed the back seat for room for the dogs and coated the bumpers, tops, and floor with Herculiner for waterproofing. We just recently traded a 99' Tahoe for an 08'Jeep Liberty 4x4 Limited with all the bells and whistles for Cindy's daily driver and future toad. The Zuki fits our needs right now.
I wouldn't dismiss an older Grand Villa U300 with a Detroit DD6V92 2-cycle mated with a heavy duty Allison transmission. It's a hard combination to beat. Just ask Pierce!
Jerry
How hard are parts to get for these? I found one I really like.. but worried about parts and engine reliability..
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 28, 2016, 11:32:23 am
How hard are parts to get for these? I found one I really like.. but worried about parts and engine reliability..
If your speaking about the Detroit 6V-92TA, they are still in production. Mercedes MTU (Daimler-Benz) purchased Detroit Diesel in 1994 and combined operations as MTU America in 2000. MTU also owns Rolls Royce turbine engines used in many of our airliners today. Because of smog requirements, new Detroit 2 cycles are no longer made for the highway use here in the U.S. MTU America supports all parts including long blocks here in the U.S. The U.S. military still uses them in a lot of "to important to fail" applications here and around the world. Since they made over 3 million of them with 700,000 still in service, parts are very plentiful and less expensive than most other diesel engines. One of the few engines that can be owner "in frame" overhauled.
EMD (Electro Motive Diesel) builds giant versions of the Detroit 2 cycle and is found in a high percentage of our railroad locomotives today.
MTU's 2 cycle page: Detroit Diesel 2-Cycle: MTU Online (http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/parts-service/detroit-diesel-2-cycle/) MTU's 2 cycle history page: MTU Report > History > Detroit Diesel 2-Cycle engines (http://www.mtu-report.com/History/Detroit-Diesel-2-Cycle-engines)
Glad to go into detail why I consider them to be the best and most reliable engine for a motor coach with all the pros and cons.
Pierce
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Bob & Sue on December 28, 2016, 01:19:18 pm
Just wondering, does the 6v92TA ( A V6 correct?) have less or more vibration at idle than say a 8.3 cummins like ours. Can't seem to get the idle just right and cruise doesn't control our idle. Not meaning to hijack the thread, but it could be important to a new owner, maybe should start a new one
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: stump on December 28, 2016, 01:20:37 pm
Just wondering, does the 6v92TA ( A V6 correct?) have less or more vibration at idle than say a 8.3 cummins like ours. Can't seem to get the idle just right and cruise doesn't control our idle. Not meaning to hijack the thread, but it could be important to a new owner, maybe should start a new one
Mine is as smooth as a Swiss watch
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on December 28, 2016, 01:34:41 pm
Are there "good" years or "bad" years we should be aware of?
Pierce and I were talking about this the other day. It concerns a coach I'm looking at for the owner in a few days, a mid nineties Grand Villa 40 footer. We agreed the '93 through '95/'96 were the best-looking ever made. That being said, they are OLD, and a lotsa CBs (Coach Bucks: 1 CB= $1,000) could be spent bringing it up to snuff. So? Depends on the pocket book. I paid max CBs for this one, but had paperwork to prove it had been taken care of, and other than "picky picky" issues, it was worth it. Knowing what I know (with mass help from this Forum) I would restore a "Classic" GV Unihome and cruise on. By the way, all of us with GVs always notice each other and give the "four honks", and like the classic Airstreams, usually find a way to turn around and get together!
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 28, 2016, 01:47:18 pm
Since it's a 2-cycle, each cylinder fires every time the piston nears top dead center. Normally, this would make it twice as smooth as a six cylinder four cycle. But since the blower keeps pumping air into the intake ports, there is never a time the piston has negative pressure on it. No intake stroke or reverse thrust so even less vibration. No intake valves so no harmonics here either. Just no worries about shaking or having to adjust the idle speed to get rid of it.
All four valves in the head are exhaust valves and since the blower pushes large amounts of air through the engine, the EGT or exhaust gas temperature is about 150 degrees less than a four cycle Cummins or CAT. The lower EGT means much less chance of a broken or "dropped" valve plus the four valves have a lot of stem area to radiate heat to the cylinder head and spread the heat over the cylinder head more evenly. You can always tell if it's a Detroit 2 cycle by the size of the exhaust pipe. 5" diameter coming out the back.
Yes, glass smooth from a 600 rpm idle to 2100 rpm fuel cutoff. The 6V-92TA is 9 liters so a little large than the 8.3 Cummins. Also has over 1000 ft lbs of torque and gets it at a lower rpm. Firing each stroke make it sound like high rpm but it's not. No sweet spot for cruising as all RPMs are glass smooth.
This engine at 350 hp is pretty conservative as later fire engines may produce 440 hp with FD ladder trucks putting out over 500 hp. Boats usually see 525 to 535 hp with 614 hp seen by some brave owners with big pocketbooks.
This engine is also made with more cylinders as in the 8V-92TA for high end motorhome as well as even more cylinders for other applications like generators, pumps, earth movers, boats. The Coast Guard uses them in their aluminum rescue boats to go over the bar. From cold to full throttle in on several seconds for instant emergency response.
Tales of leaking oil are totally gone with the 92 series. Older engines in GM buses were "sidewinder" or transverse mounted with the engine turned part way on it's side. That with tin valve covers and Permatex for a sealant meant a lot of oil on the ground. Ours leaks less oil than our 300SD. As far as using oil, we returned from a coast to coast and back trip last month with only 3 quarts needed to bring it to the full mark. In almost 100,000 miles, it has average 7.9 mpg for it's entire life. This is from the DDEC II computer data, not an optimistic owner.
Pierce
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Bob & Sue on December 28, 2016, 02:03:22 pm
So why did Fortravel stop using them. And what were the last years that they did.
Don't get me wrong, we love our GV and purposely looked for the 95 vintage, air bags, 6speed, 102, 10K generator, center bath and all that but not ruling out a GV upgrade some day.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: craneman on December 28, 2016, 03:01:28 pm
So why did Fortravel stop using them. And what were the last years that they did.
Don't get me wrong, we love our GV and purposely looked for the 95 vintage, air bags, 6speed, 102, 10K generator, center bath and all that but not ruling out a GV upgrade some day.
It may be just a rumor, but when Penske bought Detroit Diesel he told them to make a 4 stroke or he would sell the company for parts and real estate. So the 60 series was born. When they quit making them Foretravel would have had no source.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: jcus on December 28, 2016, 04:01:55 pm
The main reason GM stopped making the 2 strokes is the ever tightening of EPA regs on emissions. 2 strokes are inherently harder to modify than 4 strokes to meet new regs. The military can still get them because they do not have to comply.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Bob & Sue on December 28, 2016, 07:07:04 pm
Gosh I love this forum. You ask a question and you get the answer In spades !
What RV forum has a quick knowledgeable response that's better.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on December 28, 2016, 08:28:16 pm
It may be just a rumor, but when Penske bought Detroit Diesel he told them to make a 4 stroke or he would sell the company for parts and real estate. So the 60 series was born. When they quit making them Foretravel would have had no source.
While the 6V-92TA was the first heavy duty diesel to have a computer (DDEC or Detroit Diesel Electronic Controls) the 60 series was the first HD diesel to be all electronic from the first to the last. When MTU bought Detroit, they discontinued the 60 series but kept many innovations in their four cycles, the DD13, DD15 and DD16 series. They have a B50 of 1.5 million miles!
The 2 cycles are a very complex engine with more parts in one cylinder head than in a whole Cummins engine. There are no injector lines because the cylinder head has internal passages for the fuel to get to the unit injectors from the lift pump. It would be impossible to get the 30,000 psi for the common rail injection system without a complete redesign. Other items like the internal aftercooler instead of a intercooler (CAC) and the big blower (aka GMC supercharger) really added to the cost. Just the labor involved to set up the individual pump/injectors or"run the rack" as it was known was significant. The change to electronic injectors cut this down as well as making fuel system diagnostics very easy.
The latest EMD 2 cycles and Wartsila-Sulzer engines were able to finally take advantage of the 2 cycle's firing on every stroke by doing away with the blower and using electric clutching motors to spin the turbochargers to get the engine started. This has allowed them to go over the magical 50% efficiency barrier. See at: Most powerful diesel engine in the world (http://newatlas.com/go/3263/)
It might seem that I don't like 4 cycles but nothing could be further from the truth. My business during the diesel period was all four cycle engines and I love them.
For Cummins owners with a rough idle, the problem is not with the engine design but with the fuel system. The rotary injector pumps are not on my favorite list (VW diesel, 6.9/7.3 Ford/Navistar, Cummins with rotary pump, Perkins) but the Bosch P series are absolutely great. The problem arrises during the very short calibration period allowed at the factory. These pumps last forever but benefit from a trip along with the injectors to a truck fuel injection speciality shop. The pumps need to supply the exact amount of fuel at the exact time over the entire RPM range to EACH cylinder for the engine to run smoothly. This plus a valve adjustment can make it idle nicely as well as increased power to a mechanical diesel engine. Just depends on how much fuel the shop adds.
We put turbos on normally aspirated Mercedes 240/300 grey market diesels back in the 1970's. The turbo model was introduced here in the states before Europe so the grey market cars needed more power to sell. Our first attempt saw only slightly increased power with slightly lower quarter mile times, and much lower EGTs but when we had a pump shop add fuel, the cars turned into relative rockets.
Transmissions: The first Foretravel U300s only developed 300hp as the 746 Allison was not available and the existing Allison was not rated to handle the increased power and torque the remapping of the 6V-92TA ECU gave. While the 746 is a super rugged transmission, it is only four speeds. The upper second, third and fourth gear lockup make it shift like a 5 speed, give it better mileage, lower temperature and longer life. What hurts are the ratios compared to the 6 speeds behind a Cummins 8.3. Since first in a 6 speed has a 6.xx to 1 ratio, it can climb the steepest driveway and will rocket away from a Detroit U300 with the 4.xx to 1 first gear ratio at a stop sign. The 6 speed transmission also gives a taller highway ratio and a fuel mileage advantage from the lower final drive ratio most (but not all) have. It has much better ratios for climbing the long interstate grades here in the west. Later Detroits mated to the Allison 746 transmission have Jake brakes while the early models have a transmission retarder. I prefer the Jake but both work well. The transmission cooler on the 6V-92TA to 746 is very heavy duty.
Cummins advantages: The waste gate fitted to the Cummins turbo keeps sea level horsepower up to much higher elevation (known as the "critical altitude") where power finally starts to drop off. The 6V-92TA has no waste gate so the horsepower starts dropping as soon as the altitude increases. The 8.3 Cummins also benefits from a better placed block heater (in most cases) and a heated screen to aid cold weather starting. Some Detroits do have the heater in the traditional location down low on the block.
Time for dinner
Pierce
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on December 29, 2016, 08:39:03 am
In your spare time, you should write a book. I'd buy it! 8)
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Schake on January 01, 2017, 09:14:43 pm
Thanks, all, for your input... Much appreciated.
For further context, Beaver Marquis (which I have ridden in once, and loved) and County Coach Magna (never even seen a CC in person, let alone been in one) are the two models I've been focused on in addition to FT. (I have yet to see a FT in person, either.)
Hoping first coach will be our final one. Since I want us to go full-time, having the extra space slides offer has great appeal. For stability, a tag axle is something we want.
If any of you is passing through MD, I would welcome - and greatly appreciate - an invite to see your FT and to make your acquaintance. Ken
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: saddlesore on January 01, 2017, 11:47:17 pm
A 40' single slide 320 nearly identical to ours ....Love It! and the 2 full pass thru bays are a plus!
find it here... but ALWAYS have any coach inspected BEFORE you buy..
2002 Foretravel U320 40' Priced at $ 119500 (http://motorhomesoftexas.com/coachrv/foretravel/2002--u320--40--p1240a)
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Caflashbob on January 02, 2017, 12:02:25 am
Flip flop floorplan because of the slide. Kitchen on the curb side. Bath reversed. Mirrored warddrob doors appear to be across from the toilet..
Pretty coach
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: saddlesore on January 02, 2017, 01:06:37 am
Flip flop floorplan because of the slide. Kitchen on the curb side. Bath reversed. Mirrored warddrob doors appear to be across from the toilet..
Pretty coach
Yup,flopped floor plan and mirrors, We rarely extend the slide unless staying put for a week or so. Only things I can see need updating is the sewer needs to be adapted to Rhino style, and the satellite/tv's .... really like the flooring, hope to do ours soon
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Caflashbob on January 02, 2017, 01:13:38 am
My closet mirrors are offset from the toilet.
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: stump on January 02, 2017, 08:08:33 am
If you're sitting on the toilet in our coach. The way the mirrors are on the hallway doors I can see right out the entrance door. On the other hand If somebody walked up to the open door they could see me in the mirror sitting on the can! This is what would happen :o
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: saddlesore on January 02, 2017, 06:05:26 pm
@ Stump..... You do know that they put those pocket door thingies on for a reason..... LOLOLOL!!
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: coastprt on January 02, 2017, 08:51:15 pm
[quote author=Pierce & Gaylie Stewart link=msg=255948 date=1482950838 Yes, glass smooth from a 600 rpm idle to 2100 rpm fuel cutoff. The 6V-92TA is 9 liters so a little large than the 8.3 Cummins. Also has over 1000 ft lbs of torque and gets it at a lower rpm. Firing each stroke make it sound like high rpm but it's not. No sweet spot for cruising as all RPMs are glass smooth. Pierce [/quote]
Mine reminds me of a Heidleberg Windmill Platen Press. The best letterpress ever made. German engineering at it's finest. Pure mechanical genius like a Linotype. A true work of art in steel. I have one and in many ways it's still the best press I have ever owned. I used to have a Linotype also. I still use the Windmill....over 50 years old, no plastics parts, very little maintenance, millions of impressions, and the only press I can walk away from while it's running! Joe Fleming (Deceased) who I bought this shop from told me he went to school to learn how to set lead type on the Linotype. He was a craftsman on both.
Jerry
These videos are amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bHClLIBuhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1oNO4Mwg94
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Z4JZ6swp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHiddZOfa8
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: stump on January 02, 2017, 09:00:34 pm
Jerry That is soooo cool!!
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on January 03, 2017, 01:09:24 am
I would have never made it in the printing business. The computer with spell check has given me a fresh start. I rarely make a mistake in German but English is really hard for me. LOVE the spell check at the bottom of this page.
I had a friend I worked with for years in the fire dept. After we both retired, he told me he could not read the entire time on the job. He made a lateral transfer from another city job and never took a promotional exam. His new girlfriend discovered he was dyslexic and taught him how to read. Can't keep a book out of his hands now.
Guess you would have fired both of us! :D :D :D
Nice post Jerry!
Pierce
Title: Re: Advice on high-end coaches
Post by: Jan & Richard on January 03, 2017, 02:15:55 am
A bit off topic but as Stump said, "Sooo cool." Thanks for posting.