Tuesday morning we left Fort Stockton heading towards the SKP park near Hondo, TX. We spent the night in Sonora. No troubles on the drive in on Tuesday. After the engine had cooled off I checked the oil and coolant, planning to top off anything that needed it, so that we could leave right away Wednesday morning. In fact, we didn't even unhook the Jeep. All was fine, and I turned on the block heater so that we could leave right away. Wednesday morning I turned off the block heater and hit the key. Engine fired up, but the STOP ENGINE light was on. Shut down, and went to the back. Everything looked good, but there was a dark something on the ground. Looked underneath, and there was a drip, drip, drip from what looked like the lowest point of the engine. That explained the dark something on the ground. Was it oil or coolant? Dipstick showed the same level as the afternoon before. Radiator overflow tank had coolant in it, but when I opened the black reservoir (the one on the right with the sensor) and put some water in it sounded empty. Okay, stuff on the ground is coolant.
Called Coach-net. Eventually a large tow truck with two young guys arrived. By this time the motor home in front of us had moved to another place to make it easier for the tow truck to hook up. By Wednesday afternoon we were here in San Angelo, about 60 miles from Sonora, at the Freightliner place. They originally thought they could get us right in, but that was at 8:00 in the morning, and now it was after 3:00. We went to a hotel for the night as they couldn't let us stay in the coach. Thursday morning we showed up, expecting to hear that the water pump was bad, or a hose had a leak, or something like that. Instead I was told that the low point was the catch can, and got an explanation of how that worked. I'm starting to get the idea that this is going to be expensive, and not quick.
Long story short, it sounds like either a new engine or an overhaul is in the works. Unfortunately, they haven't been able to locate either someone who can sell them a reman engine or the necessary parts to overhaul our engine. Last word is that they won't know anything more until Monday.
On another thread someone mentioned that an 8V92 would fit in our coach. Hmmm, how much more would that cost, I wonder? What would having either a reman 6V or 8V add to the value of our coach?
Oh David.. prayers for you buddy that it's fixable and if not a windfall of coach bucks your way ^.^d
David,
You need to locate a GOOD Detroit Diesel 2 stroke tech. This engine is different enough that many techs, even good techs know next to nothing about them.
And, a more detailed description on exactly what failed.
David,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I know you are under a lot of stress right now. I'm not getting a clear picture of what they think the problem is, but then I also don't know anything about your engine. When you get a chance, you might expand a bit more on what all you discussed with the mechanics. Perhaps some of the DD6V92 experts on the Forum might then have some thoughts on how to proceed?
David,
I know that Stewart & Stevenson in Odesa usually has a 6V92 setting on an engine stand in the front showroom. They should also have an in frame kit. They also have mechanical people there that know 6V92s and how to fix them. The problem will be getting to them to see what your real problem is and what it will take to fix it. Here is there # (432) 563-4800 IIRC Anthony is the service manager you might give them a call.
Pamela & Mike
At this point they are going by external information only. Their best guess is that a head gasket may have failed or there is a cracked cylinder. It sounds like they want to be sure that there are replacement parts available before they start taking things apart. As we were sitting inside (temp is in the 20's) discussing the problem one of the guys wondered if the engine was on a slide, as that would obviously make life much easier on the guys who have to do the work. It also seems that they may have to work on it out in the lot, where the tow truck dropped it.
The generator is running, as there is no convenient place to plug in. That will probably work until Monday, and then I'll have to figure out how to either get more diesel or electricity.
Thanks for the phone number. I'll call over to Freightliner now and see if they have talked to them.
Just talked to Freightliner and they already have calls into Stewart & Stevenson and are waiting for them to call back.
There might a local fuel supplier that could deliver some diesel to your location with a small pump truck.
Or if not, go buy a couple 5 gallon gas cans and find the closest gas station with diesel. Use the cans to refill your fuel tank 10 gallons at a time. Sounds like you'll be sitting around all weekend anyway - this will give you something to do while you wait.
Keep us advised on your status!
Seems peculiar that it was running great when you stopped and then the next morning a problem? Seems like
if you would have had a leak there would have been something on the toad. Think I would look for the mechanic
with the most frosty hair on top and see what his thoughts were. I had a friend with a converted Eagle coach
and he took out the 6V92 and replaced it with an 8V92. It was fast but I liked the way the 6V ran. One big thing
on any DD is the size of the injectors and keeping the overhead run on them.
Best of luck, David, keep us posted,
Carter
Hope you don't need a rebuild. Just a comment that going to the 8V92 would require an upgrade of the tyranny to handle the additional torque, and the radiator to handle the additional heat. This would be a very expensive upgrade and also require custom exhaust work.
He could put a 8/92 and use the same tranny if it's a 740HD had one in my Eagle with a 8/92, if he has the 746might work as well.
If that were my coach and I have a 6V92 also. The first thing I would do is fill cooling system and pressureize cooling system.You have a leak somewhere. Coolant can run strange directions. I'm sure my 91 has things yours dosn't. I dont have a catch can that I am aware of. I personally replaced every coolant hose on my coach. There are a lot of points you could get a leak. These engines are pretty simple as far as engines go.Is coolant in the oil? How about the transmission? Start with the simple first. Fill cooling system, pressurize it, find where coolant is originating from. If it's a head gasket fine but you at least would see it running out.
Catch can,anyone else have that under your coach?
I have one on my 92its right under and forward of my trailer hitch mount, they are for catching excess oil coming from the cylinders when idling as soon as the RPMs get over 10000 they close.
David,
Do they have a code reader to check which active codes were flashed on the DDEC II?
Did the engine shutdown on it's own or did you shut it down? You said it was running just fine... no smoke and idling smoothly?
You said the engine started okay and there was coolant on the ground and the black tank was low. You had that situation couple of weeks ago and it was low on coolant. If it is a code 43 then adding coolant should take care of it and the active code 43 will move to the historical codes and the stop engine light should go away until it gets low again. I would try to start it again and make sure you can see coolant in the sight window on the black tank. If it shuts down on its own after about 30 seconds, then another active code could be causing it.
Hope it's nothing more serious,
Jerry
Maybe I was wrong about having a catch can I do have a drain in my rear bumper that as far as I understand is for the breather system. But still I think your system needs to be pressurized then every external inch looked over for a leak.,The drain plug on oil pan should then be loosened and see after coach has been sitting if any coolant comes out.
I too, think they are talking about the air box drains. Foretravel feeds them (one on each side of the block) into a cross over tube on the frame where the hitch is like Andy mentioned. A water/oil sludge mixture is normal if you check it. I get almost nothing when I drain mine - a few drops if I wait long enough. But it sound like you are loosing a gallon plus of coolant so it would be obvious.
Sounds like you should get some more opinions than from this dealership. They are seeing dollar signs in their pocket. Like has been said refill the coolant and pressure check, may be something simple.
I put some water into the black reservoir with a hose and there was a noticeable increase of liquid coming out at the bottom. When I fired up the engine it POURED out. I forgot to check if they are open tomorrow or not, but if they are, maybe I can pour some more water into the black reservoir and see what happens. I would assume that whatever coolant is above the leak point has drained out by now, so any additional water should appear fairly quickly.
Now, IF there is a leak somewhere internally, did I trash the engine by running it that little bit Wednesday?
where is it pouring out? of that catch tank or just all under,could it be a hose? You might have to crawl under have wife crank up and use a flashlight and see where its coming out. If it's that fast it's either something internal,Maybe compression pushing it out or it's mechanical water pump pushing it out,It also could be on the air compressor side air pressure pushing it out.
David,
If it didn't run hot then I doubt it. Like stump said check the air compressor coolant hoses for leaks. It has coolant running through the head also. You can lift the bed to check it.
Jerry
Running your engine for a less than a minute will not cause any overheating problems.
Just top off, get under coach [helps to have a mirror and flashlight] and start, and look for leaks.
Repeat above till you establish where the water is coming from.
On the Detroit V motors, the Air Compressor coolant hoses are a very common failure item. Have yours ever been replaced? Make SURE that this is not the issue on your coach. It would be WAY more inexpensive if this is the problem.
The Wanderlodge Owners Group forum has experts on these hoses, locations, part numbers, etc. May not hurt to ask on that forum regardless, as there is a lot of experience with the Detroits over there.
David,
Just got back from preparing for the storm of the century here in Northern California.
So, bummer. Yes check the hoses. Have the shop check the aftercooler seals. It's under the turbo and blower.
Possible block heater if mounted low on the engine on the right side of the block by the AC compressor.
Heater hoses leading to the front. Check the aux heater coolant pump down low on the left side by the engine.
NAPA has a product of combustion checker for the coolant. A head gasket leak that severe usually results in clouds of dissipating white smoke. A couple of months ago I was following a big rig when it suddenly started blowing white smoke out both exhausts. Not for long!
Wet liner O rings don't fail unless the engine has be overheated and usually for an extended period.
Brett's words about finding a real 2 cycle mechanic are right on. Too many guys think they know but are very lacking and you pick up the tab for the tuition.
The 6V-92TA is usually a bullet proof engine unless it has been overheated.
Pierce
David, Sorry to hear your troubles. I hope the fix be easy and not too expensive. Good Luck.
I usually get a cloud of white smoke when I first start up after the engine has been off for a few days, but it goes away quickly.
I replaced the air compressor, air dryer, and hoses in the engine compartment two years ago.
That's normal. I get it too.
You need someone under the engine when you fill the black tank to see exactly where it's coming from.
Pierce
lift up the bed so you can see the engine. when you start to add water it seems it dosnt take too much before it starts to leak, then it stops , that tells me the leak is somewhere up on the engine where it's coming out. Maybe a freeze plug ,Do they have freeze plugs?I'm not sure just a thought. Maybe you get inside the coach and have wife add water while you look where it's coming from or vice versa.
I would guess it to be an external leak. If it is a head gasket the water is blown out the water overflow or into the oil pan, same with liners. Fill it up with water and check for leaks. From the sounds of what you are saying you probably don't even have to put pressure on it. Check the block heater.
I have to agree with Brett and Texas Guy. If the mechanics can't see and point out where exactly the leak is coming from, then they don't know. As in all things, the first step is get information. Considering what you've told us, it is highly unlikely that you've burned up your engine; usually there is some event leading up to a failure (over heating, etc). If it was a cracked block or blown head gasket, I would expect to see a lot of white smoke from the exhaust. A heavy leak sounds like a split hose, but you need to find out, so another expert opinion (mechanic) would be a good idea - better if they don't know each other.
I would start with the block heater. All was good till it was used.
Well, the block heater has been in use for a couple of years now. It was in use the night before we left and was in use at the time of the leak. I suspect that it may now be dead since I think it was on when the tank emptied. If we end up with a reman or overhaul I'll see about having the heater mounted closer to the bottom of the engine instead of at the top.
Whoa! Now is not the time to talk reman or replace. Rebuild your engine in the parking lot of the shop? No way. I'm hearing too much guessing, and all on your dime. Do not let them start taking your engine apart, playing hunt and peck. You need a competent Detroit tech who can most likely diagnose exactly what is happening in very short order. Calling Pamela and Mike's guy in Odessa would probably be a very well spent dime.
No coolant in oil, , a "drip drip drip" leak, no evil smoke, running well yesterday. Sounds like a coolant leak that drained the coolant header tank, and the low coolant sensor triggered a dash light. Nothing catastrophic there.
What Chuck said +1000
I can't imagine you need a new engine or overhaul-don't resign yourself to that!
Unless you have a gaping hole in the block sounds like you likely have a bad hose somewhere. Good advice above- get a flashlight and see where the water is coming from- if its leaking that bad shouldn't take long.
Best of luck to you
David, I think it is time to just think for a second as others have said. I am no DD tech but my goodness do you have money to throw it away???
Have a real good check done to see why the coolant has gone and so far that sounds like your problem.
This could be a really simple problem and let others ( that have no monertary interest in it) "preach to you" not a repair shop that has not given you a decisive reason for the problem.
This is why they are Forum members here- to help in times needed, not to make a buck but to save it!
Take care
JohnH
I think the shop here has been trying to get the big things lined up just in case they are needed. Unfortunately, none of their suppliers have called back yet, and both the parts department and I are getting a little unhappy about that. Tomorrow I'm going to leave Jo Ann here in the hotel and I'll go to the shop and see if we can't do a bit more diagnosing.
I tend to agree that it is something comparatively minor, rather than a dead engine, since all was fine until Wednesday morning. I'm guessing that when we're all done here I'll have some new hose/pipe, o-rings, and a new block heater.
That brings up another question. Right now the block heater is in a small tank high up on the street side. Isn't there another place, down lower, that it could also go? Maybe this would be the time to move it to a better location?
Now doesn't seem like the time or place to redesign a 23 year old block heating system.
I think the shop here has been trying to get the big things lined up just in case they are needed
This would raise my eyebrows When they haven't even looked at where it's leaking from? Keep us posted I hope everything works out and it's something simple.
Is it possible you could try pressurizing the coolant system with air until you hear or see the leak? Just stick an air hose in the top of your radiator and hold a rag around the hose/opening. Turn on the air while someone is down under looking for the leak. Don't need high pressure, but cheap way to find leak. You should have everything you need right there: air hose, compressor, radiator, rag, observer, and leak!
If the leak is still hard to find try cleaning the suspect area with rags and degreaser first.
David looking from the back of your coach, look behind your AC compressor and there should be a plate with 4 bolts that is where the block heater goes on the 6/92.that location will heat the block water better then at the thermostat. ^.^d k heres the right one ( thanks Chuck)
I feel your pain no fun being stuck. But like Brett and others have said you might well serve yourself to get to a 2 stroke Detroit shop. Towing will be pricey but ma save you a bunch of $$$$, sounds like these guys don't want to fool with your coach. I doubt you need a complete motor.
You might call coachnet and ask to be towed to a competent repair facility. Two years ago they did a second tow for me. The cost to me was $0 dollars
Bill
David,
Regarding the block heater, I believe the upper location (as you described) is the standard location on Foretravel 6V92s.
I installed a lower one in the following thread but also kept the original one too as a back up since starting in cold weather without one is so difficult. I had to drill a clearance hole in the A/C compressor bracket but not that difficult.
Alternate Block Heater on 6V92 Detroits (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23517.msg182835#msg182835)
@Dave,
I did this upgrade on my coach following John's advise. It was one of the better upgrades I've done. I use it before every cold start! Saw an AquaHot talk where the rep said any start below 90º is a cold start. With the heater in the new location I only get a short puff of white smoke starting the coach. I left the old heater in place so I have 2 block heaters now. If it's going to be below 32º I run both all night! Easy start in the morning. You'll need the Hotstart DDV-151B. I don't see any on ebay at the moment but keep checking. I picked mine up for $35. The upgrade is an easy DYI. The only difficult part is you have to drain & dispose of 18 gallons of antifreeze. :( I recommend waiting until you need to change antifreeze. Humm...now that I think of it that's what you are doing now! :) Have the shop price out a Hotstart for you. Now might be the time to change out.
see ya
ken
Here is the exact block heater for the Detroit 2 cycles: Engine Block Heater fits Detroit Diesel Silver Series 6V-92 with ... | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Block-Heater-fits-Detroit-Diesel-Silver-Series-6V-92-with-/182394166201?hash=item2a778a1bb9:g:ADsAAOSwAKxWWJfu&vxp=mtr)
A lot of starter motors would still be working if Foretravel put the heater in the right location.
Good post Ken and John!
Pierce
My solution to cold starts.
Cold weather operations recommendation
STAY OUT OF THE COLD
South in the winter.
North is the summer
Stay home June 1st thru August 31st *
*That is when those unfortunate people with jobs or children in school get to travel !!!!!
Lot of hot air coming out of Texas. Might be good year around! ;)
Pierce
Just got back from the shop. They have put water into the reservoir and it IS coming from inside the engine. They have gotten parts and a reman engine lined up, so fixing won't be an issue. Unfortunately, they have only one Detroit man, and he has four trucks ahead of us. The estimate is that they will move us into a service bay on Monday, open up the engine, and see what is actually damaged before deciding how to proceed.
I'm thinking that I'd like to be there when they move the coach. Will they try starting the engine (below 60 degrees, no block heater), or will they have a tow truck come out and move it? Should be interesting to watch. Once they have the coach in a bay I can shut the generator off and plug it in.
Do our engines have freeze plugs on the engine block? If so, maybe with the cold one popped. Just asking. This may be a stupid question from a newbie.
John M
Demand to see where it is coming from "inside the engine". I dont believe it. Ive had detroits for years and have had many simple coolant leaks that drain down somewhere else and cause it to appear to be somewhere else.
I cannot buy that you need a reman engine for a loss of coolant. Another way to track it down is to pressurize with 4-5psi of air. Air makes diagnosis much easier as it doesnt drip. Unless you feel the puff, you arent at the point of the leak.
If you are prepared to replace the engine ,I would consider having it towed to The Stewert Stevenson Detroit place that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Even if you foot the tow bill another opinion from a shop that has qualified 2 stroke techs for a second opinion, Heck maybe it is something simple,a blown gasket etc, That's still way cheaper than a new engine. and At the worst if you still replace the engine, your out the cost of the tow. Heck we can probably throw a Foretravel Pot Luck Supper to help raise money for the tow bill if necessary ;)
Question,if it's coming from "inside the engine",how is it getting out of the engine?Refresh us,was there any coolant mixed with
the oil?
Good question, that! I wouldn't have them work on my eng until they showed me exactly where the leak was coming from.
The whole approach here is scary. With that size leak, even a shade tree mechanic could pinpoint the source. Not to suggest that you would want a shade tree mechanic to work on it, but you are too many days into this to not know.
FYI,not sure which way you were headed but there is a stewart and stevenson here in Corpus Christi,there are thousands of old
2 strokes on the offshore platforms,surely they have a 2 cycle guy.
Hi David!
Very sorry to see this happening too you.
To me, what they are telling you doesn't make sense. I think I'd stay away from a shop where their first suggestion out of the gate is for you to start thinking about a new engine.
I'd waste no time having it towed to a shop that has mechanics with DD experience on staff. That might save you some serious money.
Good luck!
Again, no one is pushing a reman engine - yet. They haven't even opened the engine to see what might be broken. That will happen on Monday. Only then will they know what is really needed. Until then we're all just guessing. I intend to be on hand for most of Monday so that there won't be any delay in making decisions.
The big holdup last week was that their suppliers weren't calling back with the availability of parts. As we can all agree, having one of every type of engine on hand, plus having all the parts necessary to overhaul every engine, just isn't feasible. I can't really fault them for wanting to know that replacement parts, whether a gasket or a whole engine, will be available if/when needed.
Now, I like the idea of a potluck. Not as a benefit for us, but for the fellowship (and food). When and where should we have one? Is this going to be a monthly thing? Anyone around the San Angelo area?
Detroit 92 series parts are available from many sources and can be where ever you are in 24 hours. New liners and piston sets are inexpensive. Even ebay: Detroit Diesel Series 92 Turbo Cylinder Kit # 23524343 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-Series-92-Turbo-Cylinder-Kit-23524343/300539379606?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40808%26meid%3Def6d1d495c7741109f22e417474ff9e4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D201581972042) About $200 for each cylinder kit. Everything can be replaced in frame (without taking the engine out) even by a owner with hand tools.
I'm still not sold that these guys know what they are doing!
Pierce
X2 on what Pierce said. These engines are tough running fine at night, seriously damaged iin the morning!
May or may not be related, but two years ago when we had the air compressor replaced, the mechanic pointed to a dark spot on the curb side of the engine and said that that was a sign of an impending head gasket failure. I hadn't thought about that until tonight, so maybe that's the problem.
Chuck, we're talking about NEXT Monday. There aren't all that many two cycle Detroits running around, and I suspect that most of them are in motor homes, so the only Detroit mechanic also works on other things. He has four trucks ahead of us that will take him the rest of this week to finish. I really can't ask that we be moved up in the schedule, because those other trucks that are down mean their drivers aren't earning any money. Yes, we're spending some money on a hotel room, and that's more expensive than an rv park, but we're comfortable and able to explore a bit of Texas that we hadn't planned on seeing this trip. Our original plans were to see Austin this week, and that will still happen. We'll just arrive in town on a different highway than we had originally planned.
And they should NOT open the engine at all! They should identify where the fluid is leaving the engine, inform you, then "maybe" open the engine. Unless by "open the engine" you mean open the engine compartment and identify the source of the leak.
Thought I might mention that there were a lot of 2 cycle Detroit's (indestructible) used in the marine industry.
When I worked as a mechanic Detroit engines were everywhere. They are a good reliable engine and are easy to work on. Before any thing is done find out where the coolant is coming from. Any decent shop should have a rad tester, but the way you explained it I would just fill it up with water and find out where the leak is. If the coolant doesn't run out then put the rad tester on.
No 2 stroke expert here but usually a head gasket leak starts out slow and gets worse over time,the way this coolant is pouring
out sure seems like something else.
John, a couple of weeks ago I had an issue where the reservoir was bone dry. When we had the air compressor worked on two years ago the mechanic pointed to a dark spot and said that looked like a head gasket starting to leak. I kind of forgot about that until now. Perhaps I've had a coolant leak that has been getting worse for two years and now it has finally let go.
If it was dry a couple of weeks ago there is a chance the sensors didn't come on as they usually have to have liquid to register. Not a good sign.
With the fluid level below the sensor, the DDEC II will allow the engine to start for 30 seconds and then shut down. This is not uncommon with water pump or hose leaks. The fitting for the hose going from the pressure tank to the plastic reservoir has a habit of leaking as the solder gets old and fails from vibration. This allows the level to fall below the sensor in the pressure tank.
Pierce
I was thinking of over heating sensors. Forgot these had low coolant level cutoffs.
David any more progress on your coach?
It goes in today. They were working Saturday on getting some of the working trucks ahead of us out, and it sounds like we'll go in when a bay opens up this afternoon.
Last week we were told that we were still on track to get in today, so Jo Ann and I were there shortly after the shop opened at 7 this morning. The mechanic came by and said that he was waiting on some parts for the last truck, but they wouldn't arrive until 10:30 or 11:00, so it would be at least this afternoon when the coach would go in. I left Jo Ann in the hotel room after lunch, and I went back. Middle of the afternoon, and the mechanic came in to talk to the parts guys, and he looked unhappy. It turned out that the parts hadn't even been shipped yet (!) and he was NOT happy.
Eventually, though, he was able to get the truck out of the bay, and about 5:00 he had brought the service truck over, filled my air tanks, hooked up a chain, and we were off to the service bay. Tomorrow we'll find out what's what.
Interestingly, he introduced me to his helper - his son! The son looks like he is in high school, but I suspect he has already graduated. This mechanic is the ONLY one here who has ever worked on DD two cycles, so maybe the son will learn some, too. The father has a reputation of being very meticulous and cautious, and just from the little bit that I talked with the son I suspect he is learning those traits, too.
I dug out my safety stands, and they were promptly installed. He had never seen anything like them, but liked the idea.
More tomorrow.
I hope your long ordeal is about over.
Good luck,
Carter-
Good luck tomorrow David!
Hope it is something simple ^.^d
HOLDING MY BREATH !!!!!
David,
Your saga certainly makes interesting reading--and we are hoping it will go smoothly, quickly and inexpensively from this point on. We definitely feel for you!
Good luck today. We are certainly hoping for the best scenario. Keep us posted.
We are definitely learning patience. Of course, the mechanic who is waiting on parts stuck in the ice storm is, too, as is the driver whose truck is waiting those parts.
Exploratory surgery began today. As of noon today, there is a coolant leak on the street side along one cylinder. At that point they didn't know why it was leaking there, only that it was. They no longer are talking about a replacement engine, but at worst an in-frame overhaul, and it may not even go that far. At this point I'm going to let them work and wait for a phone call to let me know exactly what is needed.
Dave
Any progress on the repairs?
Roland
I expect a call from the shop any time now.
You have Way more patience for a answer than I do, I'll tell you that! :whistle:
Squeaky wheel gets the grease! I always worry that shops don't really know what's wrong or even how to repair it so come up with a plausible story and then highly recommend a rebuilt/remanufactured engine be installed.
Rebuilding a wet sleeve diesel is much more complex than just pulling the liner out and putting a new one in place. Here is a really excellent video of all the steps necessary to replace the pistons and liners so they will give as good of a life as when new. This is for a 60 series Detroit but the same applies to a 92 series 2 cycle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vWeibfi_Wg
Another good video on diesel piston ring installation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTV9bU1p4kU
Pierce
Old engine, old soft plugs or freeze plugs depending on where you're from may well likely be a candidate for leaks, also steel galley plugs will corrode faster than cast iron typically. Or maybe bad head gasket that leaks from the water galleys to the exterior. We just have to wait to find out.
Just got back from a couple of hours of shopping and checking on the coach. The problem is that the cylinder sleeves have o-rings on the outside that have deteriorated with time and were letting coolant get where it wasn't supposed to. He said it doesn't look like anything was overheated, just old. The plan is to do an in-frame overhaul, to the tune of ~$17,000. One issue that he has been fighting is that nearly every bolt or nut has either fought him over coming loose or has just broken.
For those of you who have similar-age engines, this is something that you may well be looking at sometime down the road. My engine has about 165,000 miles on it, but age, not miles, have taken a toll. Kind of like tires and batteries.
In a related thought, I had asked him to cast his professional eye ever the rest and let me know if there was anything else that was about to fail. The muffler has several holes in it and needs to be replaced. That, at least, ought to be an easy fix.
A question for Brett or anyone who has actually done this: IF a reman engine would be cheaper than doing an in-frame overhaul, are they going to have to remove the rear cap?
David,
What is going to be included in the in frame? Mercedes/Detroit Reliabilt parts or aftermarket? Bad O-rings should show coolant in the crankcase. Lots of exchange engines so what shop, etc. What is included in the exchange? Short block? Long block? Injectors? Valve job with new valves? Accessories? Engine should come out the bottom with coach on truck hoist.
$17K is not far from what the coach is worth. You should have ALL the details in an estimate.
Pierce
If no anifreeze or water in the oil or oil in the radiator ( milky) in my opinion it is smoke and mirrors, more likely a head gasket or cracked block, freeze plugs ect.
Bill
would call other shops in the USA and get prices,just to compare.An engine swap may be a lot less
Labor.
David this 6/92 was done in 2010, new rods ,cyl, heads ,mains and rod bearings the whole deal was 12,000.so maybe with inflation 17,000 isn't to bad.also had a rebuilt turbo and blower as well.
Detroit-branded parts are apparently not available (I find that hard to believe) but there ARE other brands available. Pistons, cylinder liners, rods, etc. are all included. Price doesn't include a turbo or muffler, though.
I told the service manager to figure both ways (in-frame vs reman) and let me know.
Where was the water coming from? Did I miss something. ??? V6, one of 3 cylinders maybe, I have that engine in mine and am afraid you have the wrong shop working on it.
Detroit Diesel 92 Series Parts | 6V92 | 8V92 | 12V92 | 16V92 (http://www.detroitdieselpartsdirect.com/detroit-diesel-92-series-parts)
DS-6V92OH Free ground shipping on this item
COMPLETE ENGINE OVERHAUL KIT - 6V92
In-Frame Kit Also Available
Engine Serial Number
Size
Base price: $2,823.08
Our price: $1,693.85
Qty:
PRODUCT NOTES
The DS-6V92OH complete engine overhaul kit can be used on Detroit Diesel 6V92 engine models and includes the following parts:
6 Complete Cylinder Kits
1 Complete Overhaul Gasket Set
6 Connecting Rod Bearing Pairs (standard or oversized)
4 Main Bearings (standard or oversized)
4 Thrust Washers
2 Valve Cover Gaskets
This item is a new replacement part covered by a 12-month warranty and eligible for free ground shipping.
Do not hesitate to call us at 877.480.2120 if you have any questions about this item.
As always, your satisfaction is guaranteed!
I smell a rat, I think this guy has the hots for your coach and is trying the old fashioned way of obtaining it thru lies, and the infamous mechanics lein, storage fees etc. He will next offer to buy it from you for a couple of cbs. As others have said o ring would show water in the crankcase.
Price what it would cost to upgrade to a newer coach,if you could somehow get 10k for yours,
that's 30k towards a different coach.Unless you can work on these yourself these detroits are
Money pits.Half of the mechanics that say they can work on them are storytellers.
David,
It seems to me that you are in the grasp of a serial parts changer, that's the guy that puts on parts till he stumbles on the fix. Had clowns like that work for me (not very long) unfortunately they seem to be the coming thing, if they can't plug in to diagnose the problem then it's into the parts bin and YOUR wallet the Detroit motor is a great motor I've had them in all kinds of applications on both sides of the Atlantic,
I agree with Pierce that if the o-rings are gone the coolant would be in the oil. I still haven't heard you say that the engine has been filled up and then checked for leaks and if none are found pressurize the radiator, no more than 25 lbs and recheck.
Dave
You should not need an overhaul unless there is coolant in the oil pan. If the seals as leaking the coolant has to go somewhere. Had the problem with my class A truck was discovered with coolant in the pan. That many coach bucks deserves a really really good diagnosis. But as long as you are comfortable with what they are telling you, go for it, it's your money.
Roland
When we left today they had the head off of the street side, airbox off, and one sleeve out. I could plainly see and feel the sad shape of the o-rings. Jo Ann asked if we would have to do the other side, too, and I told her yes, we would, because all of the o-rings were installed at the same time, so if one has started to disintegrate the rest won't be far behind.
One of the first things that was done was to add water to the reservoir. As water was added at the top it came out of the catch can at the bottom. The engine was NOT RUNNING at that time.
The entire time I've owned this coach I've had to add oil frequently, and there is always oil on the bottom. I've learned that I can drive for two days (3-500 miles) before it is down close to the "add" mark, and then I can add most of a gallon of oil. I had added oil while we were in Carlsbad, so that it was nearly full. When I checked it in Sonora it was about halfway down. When I checked it at the shop it was somewhat above half.
The reservoir holds just over two gallons of coolant. When I had the problem earlier, I filled the reservoir completely and the overflow tank to the FULL COLD mark. When I checked it at Fort Stockton I just checked and filled the overflow tank. I didn't check the reservoir. Could it have leaked out as we were driving from Hobbs to Fort Stockton, so that there was very little left in the reservoir, but enough that I didn't get any warnings? Then the o-ring finally gave way while we were parked in Sonora, but there wasn't all that much coolant left to go into the oil? I'm just wondering because I have nothing else to do. I'm tired of all of the talking heads on the television.
Editing isn't cooperating. Change Hobbs to Carlsbad/Artesia in the last paragraph.
You have seen what there is to see. I am not there so not going to question the mechanic but if you are good no to go through with it I would strongly recommend getting at least one other estimate or two. Perhaps you should contact foretravel and see if they know of anyone who has done a 6v92 rebuild in a foretravel.
If the oil did not look like chocolate milkshake I doubt the water made its way to the crankcase. If the o rings were leaking I would think they would continue to leak whatever is in the block regardless of the resivouir level. I thought they found coolant leaking outside the block at one time. I'm dumbfounded. Time to get a real tech on the phone. Where did all the coolant go, certainly not into the crankcase as it would still be there getting picked up from the bottom by your oil pressure pump intake and making a milkshake colored oil concoction. Oil floating on top of the coolant so it can't evaporate.
That is a huge amount of oil consumption. I changed the oil on my caterpillar immediately after purchase and am close to 18,000 miles on the new oil and have not yet added a drop of makeup oil. The level is currently close to the add mark on the dipstick, but I will let it continue to drop and just change it in 2000 more miles.
I doubt the liner orings were the cause of your leak, but I agree at this age they are probably on borrowed time, combined with your oil consumption issue some new parts should really help.
Sorry I just reread my last post and it should be no more pressure than 15 lbs
Would do what Toby said Monday morn,then figure the cost of getting the coach elsewhere.Keep
In mind most shops do not want a pile of parts to reassemble.Regarding these nuts and bolts
I would be spraying them down at lunch and every night with penetrating oil and telling my son to
Use a ratchet and not a impact.GOOD LUCK.
heads off, bolts twisted off, $17k overhaul.....hook set.
Lots of great advice on the last 5 pages and over two weeks but all of it ignored.
Best of luck
I bought and sold Mercedes for years in Germany. All anyone had to do was supply the chassis number and describe the part and MBZ would get it on a plane to anywhere in the world within 24 hours. After Daimler AG (Mercedes) bought Detroit Diesel, they brought the same level of service to the Detroit Diesel name. They have 800 locations to service Detroit Diesel MTU products in the U.S. Here is the site where you only have to enter your zip code and all the nearby service centers will be listed. Find A Dealer | Demand Detroit (http://demanddetroit.com/find-a-dealer/)
Shops like to use aftermarket parts as they are much less expensive. I shipped MBZ diesel cylinder heads to the U.S. and had the choice of OEM at over $800 or Balo (aftermarket) for $125. I used the Balo and never had a problem. With aftermarket parts, there are good choices as well as bad ones. You need to find out what aftermarket company your shop is using and the most important thing, if they will warrant the labor as well as the parts they use. Too many times, a shop can say that it was a faulty part and you have to eat at least part of the cost.
Replacing the parts you have listed is not a complete overhaul in any way. How about rebuilding the rods, replacing the injector cups, valves, cam followers, injectors (expensive) camshaft bushings, camshaft within specifications, etc?
So, it looks to me that the parts you have listed are less than $2000 out of a total of $17,000. Lots of profit for the shop here! When you go to sell your coach, most savvy buyers will see you have a 160,000 mile engine with a new set of pistons/liners/bearings. That's not going to add much to the value. It's still an older engine with the original turbo, injectors, water pump, ECU, etc, etc.
As far as age taking it's toll, our 300SD is a 1984, has 440,000 miles, starts like new in any temp and uses no oil. 160,000 on a Detroit 2-cycle is not much. Poor maintenance or abuse can make a big difference. At the 100,000 mark our 6V-92TA just did a coast to coast and back using 3 quarts of oil to bring it back up to the full mark. These engines have the reputation of bringing the truck home no matter how old and tired they are. But nothing like overheating to age the O-rings in a hurry! This applies to the 92 and 60 series as well as any diesel with wet liners.
Aftermarket parts forum: Inframe kits what's the best bang for your $$$$ | TruckersReport.com... (http://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/threads/inframe-kits-whats-the-best-bang-for-your.161661/)
For DIY owners, you can easily replace the cylinder kits yourself with simple hand tools and save a ton. NO puller is required to pull the liners! A lot of the head work will have to be done by a machine shop but you can do a quality job for not that much money. Research including videos make it pretty easy. But doing it inframe in a RV is the tough part. Really hard to lean over the engine and do work from the top!
Still can't get my head around coolant on the ground but none in the crankcase and have it be the fault of the liner seals. I would have to see it to believe it.
Pierce
From the way they were talking, it sounds like the only part that won't be touched is the block. Everything else inside gets changed out. Yes, the warranty question is one that they are checking on. They want us to have a 100,000 mile/3 year warranty on parts and labor - what we would get with genuine Detroit parts. Tomorrow I'm going to ask them about whether the warranty is transferable to the next owner.
RVtrv,not sure which cat you have,but are you saying you change at 20k miles?That would be
Pushing it with synthetic and a bypass filter.Cummins calls for 6k.
Look folks, David is grown and is spending his money and is free to have whomever he wants
to work on his coach. He has been advised to run away from these people, but he wants to
stay there rather than having his coach towed to, what we believe is, a more knowledgeable shop.
If he is happy there, then so be it and we should all go away and let him get his coach repaired.
It is sad that his coach has been torn down and now is headed down to a 17,000 plus dollar
engine repair. At some point and time you go over the value of your coach and throw money in
it that can never be recovered. He will either have to drive the cost of the repair out of the coach
or sell it for a large loss, but it his money and we should not be adding frustration to his already
large problem.
Carter-
Not so long ago we had a similar situation. My issue was the transmission the coach was not driveable. Needed either a new or rebuilt transmission or rebuild my transmission. My transmission cooler failed coolant found it's way into the Allison. Another option was to flush the transmission plumb in a new cooler at a much lower cost. Another Forum member chose this option. We spent twelve coach bucks repairing our coach and know that we will never recoup that expense. But we chose the option that we were comfortable with. I believe that is just what Dave is doing what is best for him for his peace of mind.
Roland
Rule #1 never ever add up the costs of something you enjoy.
[quote author=Pierce & Gaylie Stewart date=1485103051 link=msg=25893
Still can't get my head around coolant on the ground but none in the crankcase and have it be the fault of the liner seals. I would have to see it to believe it.
Pierce
[/quote]
David,
I hate to beat a dead horse here and we all feel your pain and wish you could avoid such a costly repair or get taken in by somebody.
I just spoke to a friend of mine who has been a diesel mechanic over 30 years and has worked on just about everything. I told him about your situation and he told me without coolant in the crankcase or oil in the coolant, radiator, etc. that the liner rings are probably okay. He had a bad oil cooler do the same thing one time and leaked coolant to the ground. It could be one of the hoses are cracked and leaking. In his situation he just bypassed the oil cooler until he was able to replace it later. Also I would check the hoses to the air compressor for leaks. Just recently I serviced my air compressor head and had to disconnect the coolant lines to do it. The compressor sits high up on the engine and it leaked out about 2 gallons of coolant before it stopped. This caused a low coolant code 43 on the DDEC I discovered after reassembly and starting. I'm by no means an expert on anything or a diesel mechanic but I would want to look at some other things before a $17000 in-frame overhaul in the absence of oil in the crankcase and coolant was pouring out on the ground without it running. You said it was leaking coolant and not overheating a couple of weeks ago. I know it's been partially torn down but have these mechanics shown you where the coolant is leaking or just told you.
Does the warranty include parts and labor?
Like the rest us, just trying to help,
Jerry
I had a nice chat with the mechanic today and learned a bit more. Yes, there was about a half gallon of antifreeze in the engine oil. There is obvious damage to both the cylinder liner and the piston, and the o-rings are cracked and one of them was nearly broken.
I also talked to the service manager and found out that the warranty IS transferable to the next owner.
I asked about the cost of a reman vs the in-frame overhaul. They will run the numbers, but it is likely that the in-frame would be considerably cheaper. This is one case where drop-down jacks would be a help (and the only one that I can think of).
Dave, they can air up the chassis and raise the air bags, if you have safety blocks and insert them. that way the under side will be elevated, and they can still jack up the wheels if needed. The air supply can be through one of the tanks or the air hose outlet next to the entrance steps. If you do not have safety blocks do not let them air up the coach as it will/could come down ... ???
Hey Dave, in your original post, you said this; " Everything looked good, but there was a dark something on the ground. Looked underneath, and there was a drip, drip, drip from what looked like the lowest point of the engine. That explained the dark something on the ground. Was it oil or coolant? Dipstick showed the same level as the afternoon before. Radiator overflow tank had coolant in it, but when I opened the black reservoir (the one on the right with the sensor) and put some water in it sounded empty. Okay, stuff on the ground is coolant." Where was that drip, drip, drip. coming from??? You also stated that the oil level was O.K. I don't understand your mechanic's findings...
Is this problem we see coming up from time to time, a DD manufacturing problem, or just "the luck of the draw?" :-\
Mike,
The 71 series Detroit 2-cycles had dry sleeves so coolant in the oil was never a problem. The 92 series 2-cycle, 60 series four cycle and all the Detroit DD13/15/16 four cycles have wet sleeves. The 2-cycle sleeves can be removed by putting a home made tool on top of the piston and then turning the crankshaft by hand. The four cycles need a tool and puller you can find inexpensively on ebay.
The only time I have ever heard of the O-rings failing is when the engine is severely overheated for a length of time. The DDEC computer all Detroit powered Foretravels have, shuts the engine down in this case but there is an override switch on the dash that allows the engine to produce full power for a limited time unless the override switch is used again...and again. This has served as a engine death switch to more than one coach with a 2-cycle or 4-cycle wet liner engine.
Servicing a Foretravel Detroit 92 series is not any more difficult than the other engines as mechanic no longer have to "run the rack" as there is no longer a RACK. The electronic controls operate the fuel injectors, in fact the same injectors as the 60 series four cycles.
Here is a 34 second video on removing a wet liner from a DD13 diesel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQ19iUjmmg
So how do you get coolant on the ground? Only through a external hose/fitting leak or a rod through the block would be my guess. Have never seen one leak on the ground.
FYI: Cummins M11 and ISX also have wet liners.
Pierce
Gerry, the dripping was coming from the catch can. At that time I didn't know what that was or how it is arranged. Since then I've learned what it is and how it is designed inside. The slobber tubes go from the engine to the left and right ends of the can. There is a vertical tube that runs from near the top of the can to out the bottom. It serves as a vent for the oily gas that is produced. The can allows the solid stuff to be retained in the can and the gas to vent out the bottom via that tube. The slobber tubes are similar to the old breather pipes that were on the old (pre-smog) cars.
There was only about 1/2 gallon of coolant in the whole amount of engine oil, and it wasn't mixed in with the oil. I talked to the mechanic about how this might have happened. No one will ever be able to know for sure, but we're thinking that the o-ring let go sometime on the morning of 4 January, since there was nothing that looked unusual on the afternoon of 3 January when I checked the engine. The block heater was on, and as you know, it is located fairly near one cylinder. I think that the cylinder I looked at is the one that is closest to the block heater, but I don't know that for a fact.
The engine HAS apparently been overheated at some point, but I doubt that at this point anyone could say for sure when it happened. I'm pretty sure that it didn't happen while I owned the coach, unless it was a couple of years ago when we lost the hydraulic fluid for the radiator fans and the engine temperature rose quickly. I pulled over and shut down before the computer shut it down, so I would hope that nothing happened then. What happened in the 20 years prior to our ownership I don't know.
As I said earlier, I suspect that the o-rings are aging, and that may contribute to the problem. One thing that was pointed out to me is that these engines were originally built for over-the-road truckers, who put hundreds of thousands of miles on their trucks every year. At 165,000 miles, I suspect that my engine has about one year's worth of what an OTR trucker would put on, and my engine is 23 years old. Assuming that the engine is intended for 1,000,000 miles before overhaul, that would mean that an OTR trucker would overhaul every 7-10 years. My engine would have to run for well over 100 years to get to that point. I suspect that rubber-like things like o-rings will deteriorate due to age as well as miles.
David,
DDEC II code for overheating is code 44. It will show up in the active codes if still there and in the historical codes if it hasn't been cleared. I would read all the codes from the under dash flasher or have the mechanic read them with his diagnostic code reader if he has one.
Jerry
I don't claim to be an expert and I don't own a 92 series Detroit, but I don't get how a crankcase vent tube could have coolant coming out of it unless the crankcase is full of coolant. All of the vent tubes on gas or diesel engines that I can remember including the 13 diesel engines that I currently own are attached to the valve covers.
They are not crank case vent tubes, they are air box drains. You will have to understand 2 cycle DDs before you can understand what has happened here.
TOM
Air box drains explained. Click on the pictures to enlarge. Detroit Diesel Air Box Drains 6V92 8V92 Series - Luxury Coach Lifestyles (http://www.luxurycoachlifestyle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4939)
Pierce
Slobber tubes have nothing to do with crankcase vents. Slobber tubes drain oil/water from the airbox through a pressure valve that opens under pressure and usually dumps under the engine or into a catch can.
Small amounts of water/oil/fuel from the airboxes is completely normal.
Crankcase vents are something completely different and not related to airbox drains.
I have been draining my "Slobber Box" semi-annually for 8 years now.
I have never got anything but a small amount of oil out of it.
Engine has approx 2000 hours on it, according to tack and Pro-link.
David.... have you ever drained the tank ?
Bill,
What's the procedure for draining the "slobber box"? I don't think mine has ever been touched! 2100 hours on my engine as read from the DDEC II. I need to make it part of my maintenance routine.
Thanks,
Jerry
Thanks for setting me straight guys. I have seen the crankcase vent tubes referred to as slobber tubes many times on here.
Dave
Boat friends with detroits are saying beware of junk parts, even from detroit. One guy got a brand new head from the DD dealer and put it on a customer boat (he's a mechanic) and it was cracked. Dealer replaced head but wouldn't give anything for labor....mechanic doesn't work on detroits anymore.
Yesterday afternoon I got a call from the service manager telling me that replacing my engine with a remanufactured one would run $35,000. An in-frame overhaul is half that. Obviously I'll go with the overhaul. I talked to them this morning to see what sort of timeline we're looking at. They thought maybe another two weeks.
This morning I called Stewart & Stephenson. I left a message with someone in parts, who hasn't called back yet. I called again a few minutes ago and talked to Anthony. He said that Detroit parts are getting harder to get (same story I get here), they don't keep these in stock, so they have to come from elsewhere (same story I get here), and it would take them about a month from when the coach arrived at their shot to when we would be back on the road.
We're going over to the hotel office in a few minutes to extend our stay here for another two weeks. We had planned to spend January and February in Texas, so that part hasn't changed. We're just having to do things a little bit differently than what we had planned.
A few on ebay. Here is a non Jake 350hp for $3995.00 outright. Fire truck take out so you know it got great service.
DETROIT 6V92TA DIESEL ENGINE | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DETROIT-6V92TA-DIESEL-ENGINE-/311784429374?hash=item4897ccd73e:g:mlkAAOSwa~BYNcah)
Pierce
Find a running take out (like the ebay) and stick it in. He'll, I bought a whole metro bus back in 2004 for $1700 and drove it from Minneapolis to VA...it had 6v92
David, it's your money but if it were me I'd do as the last two posters suggested. Seems like $4,000.00 for a reman engine is safer money than a 17K rebuild. It sounds like you are committed to the shop and the engine is already torn down. Why not ask the shop if you can provide the engine and if you trust them, have them do the work? Seems like you could save a bunch of money buying the engine and having it shipped to this shop.
Pierce,
That one might have more horses than 350. The fire engine I looked at here in Gulfport had a red one in it and I believe was rated at 400 HP.
I spoke with David Johnson here at Johnson Diesel who changed my oil the first time and did some bulkhead work. I asked him about an in-frame overhaul on my rig. He said around $15000 and you could probably get by for about $12000 if no work was needed on the turbo and blower. This included all the parts and reworking the heads. More expensive in Texas. Of course that number goes up if the engine has to come out to work on the crank or the block is bad.
I also asked him about a swap for an 8V92 and he told me an HT 746 Allison like we have should be able to handle the bigger motor and you would have to make sure you had enough cooling capacity. The extra radiator up front that Andy has in his rig makes it even more feasible. For the cost of a rebuild I would consider a good used 6V92 or the swap and get more hp/torque to boot. He said he did a swap one time in an old manual transmission bus for a guy here in Bay St. Louis. They also do marine installations and work on the fire trucks. Johnson Diesel Services | Diesel Service | Engine Overhaul | Biloxi, MS (http://johnsondiesel.com/)
Jerry
Yes, it could have more HP. I have seen 350 hp, 440 hp for engine companies and 520 hp in ladder trucks. As with all engines, the TBO comes down when the HP goes up. RV is light duty but more HP means more heat.
This engine would require changing valve covers and everything for the Jake brake but that's not much time as it's right under the valve cover. We changed oil in all fire department vehicles every 1000 miles. Other misc stuff. Just have to make sure it turns the correct direction. I think only boats with two engines had CC and CCW engines to counter the torque.
Lots of good things on the old engine.
Pierce
For that price, you could re-power with an M11
I went over to the coach this morning to get another couple of things, bring the mechanics some donuts, and see how things are going. The engine is apart and new parts are arriving. I asked if they were still on track to be done next week and the answer was "YES!"
This week I'm going to check out how to get the coach from the shop back here to the hotel. The route I drive in the car won't work for the first part due to a weight limit and a couple of sharp dips. I can park the coach here overnight while we move all the stuff back into it.
We've signed up for a Habitat For Humanity Care-A-Vanner build in Alice, TX beginning the last week of February, so we'll have a couple of weeks to get some of the visiting done in the San Antonio area before heading down to Alice.
You might want to plan a 300 or so mile shake down run before you leave the area
But then, you would have a M11
Pierce
Bruce, our plans were to spend January and February in Texas, and that's what we're doing. Plans at this point are to go from here (San Angelo) to Hondo to New Braunfels to Alice. Corley Freightliner has quite a few locations in this part of the world, so if something is wrong I ought to be able to get someone from them to take care of the problem.
BTW, those travel plans take us to the middle of March, so I'm hoping that if any problems show up they will show up fairly quickly, because after we leave Alice we have about two weeks to get up to SW Missouri for our month of campground hosting.
But that's a good thing..........Right?? ;D
I'll trade my little 8.3 for someone's M11 :D
That should make our little 36' GV run with the best of them.........
It only takes a basket full of Coach Bucks and you can get anything put
in a coach you want. Might even get a jet engine.
Carter-
We went over to the coach today to see how things are progressing. Two weeks ago they asked us to pay for the parts that would be needed, and estimated that it would take two weeks to finish. Well, most, but not all, of the parts have arrived, and the engine is going together. They expect the last of the parts to arrive by the end of the week (maybe tomorrow), and as soon as parts arrive the mechanic drops whatever else he is working on and works on our coach.
I talked to the mechanic also, and he said that the next step for him is to fit a special jack under the engine for safety purposes as he works on the oil pump. He said his son isn't strong enough to hold up the engine while he works on it. The jack was in use at that moment, but as soon as it is free he gets it for our coach.
IF everything arrives tomorrow I suppose that we could be on the way by the weekend, but I suspect that it will be early next week when we pull out. In the meantime we're seeing the sights here. There is a big rodeo in town, so lots of FFA kids here at the hotel, but we've avoided that, preferring to see the historical stuff here, like Fort Concho which is celebrating 150 years here.
Thanks for the post Dave was wondering how things were going.
Roland
"I talked to the mechanic also, and he said that the next step for him is to fit a special jack under the engine for safety purposes as he works on the oil pump. He said his son isn't strong enough to hold up the engine while he works on it. The jack was in use at that moment, but as soon as it is free he gets it for our coach."
?????????????????????????????????????????
"I talked to the mechanic also, and he said that the next step for him is to fit a special jack under the engine for safety purposes as he works on the oil pump. He said his son isn't strong enough to hold up the engine while he works on it. The jack was in use at that moment, but as soon as it is free he gets it for our coach."
The mechanic has a weird sense of humor! ???
I hope........... ::)
Are there are about a dozen or so "special jacks" for
motorhomes in the United States ? ? ? ?
Carter-
Most vehicles I have worked on allow you to remove the oil pan while the engine is still secured in at least one of the motor mounts, apparently not the case with the DD. So special "jacking" may be required to avoid a crossmember below the pan. IDK, that or the techs continuously listen to duelling banjo's.
As I understand it, the oil pump is a HUGE part of the engine. I don't know if it is part of the engine mount system or not, but he needs that special jack to support the engine while he removes the old pump and puts on the new one. His son is working with him and looks like he is still in high school, although I suspect that he is actually somewhat older than that. Everyone seems to be looking younger than they really are any more. Anyway, when the mechanic mentioned that he needed that jack, which was in use on another project, I teased him that maybe his son could just hold it up. He laughed and said that his son is strong, but not that strong.
I'll go over and see what's what either tomorrow or Saturday and have another report then. The impression I got yesterday was that, while it is theoretically possible for us to be out of here yet this week, it is more likely that we'll be leaving early next week. Then on to Hondo and the SKP park there.
Did I miss it or was there a final for sure determination of what failed?
Cool!
I hope I'm part of everyone.
Went over to check on the coach this morning. All is going back together well, but some parts aren't in yet. Should be in on Monday. Best guess is 2-3 days after parts are in to finish. That means Wednesday or Thursday we'll be done. So far no surprises.
PROGRESS!!!
We had to go near the coach this afternoon, so we stopped by to see what was what. All of the parts except a gasket were in at that point, and the gasket was expected at any minute. The reassembly process is going much smoother than the disassembly went, so they are very hopeful that we will be back in our own bed very shortly. We've started organizing all the stuff we've dragged over here so that we can get it all back in the coach in some sort of order. Obviously we don't know what time or day we will be on our way, but the hotel will certainly be happy to get the room back since there is a rodeo in town and every hotel room in San Angelo is taken. If we get the coach back late in the day we'll bring it back here and leave the generator running overnight and then take off the next morning. If we get it back early enough in the day we'll head towards Hondo.
I talked to the service manager about exactly how we should treat the engine. He will give me full instructions before we leave, but he did say that he wants us to stop frequently and let the engine cool off to <150 degrees before continuing. His reasoning is that he wants the o-rings to fully seat with a series of expansion and contraction cycles. Looks like I'll need to spend a bit of time with the map to see where we can take those cooling breaks.
Did they ever determine the cause or point of failure of the original problem(s)?
What he said: There have been a number of these 'catastrophes" on this forum where I don't recall the OP ever saying what happened, even though many members tried their best to give suggestions. Maybe I missed the "thanks gang, this was the problem" post? ???
The problem was that the old o-rings around one of the cylinder liners finally cracked, letting coolant flow into the oil. The o-rings must have failed during the night while the engine was off, as there was only about a half gallon on coolant in the oil and it was NOT mixed in. I suppose that we could have just had new o-rings installed, but that probably would have cost quite a bit in labor, and probably would have had problems later on. There was evidence that the engine had gotten hot at some point. Whether that was when we lost the radiator fan a couple of years ago or whether it happened before we bought it is unknown.
I'm also assured that there will be considerably more power with this overhaul, so I'm anxious to see how that changed. I'm wondering if I'll get better fuel economy now.
Thanks, David, I don't see the engine type on your sig, is that a DD you have? Good luck, you've earned "miles to go before you sleep." ^.^d
Detroit Diesel 6V92 two stroke-- same engine used in a very long list of model years for the U300.
I must add that either you have some of the best medication in the Western Hemisphere or you have the temperament of a Buddhist Monk. I tip my hat to you for holding it together through a terrible RV ordeal.
I second that I would have blown my cool at least a dozen times by now. You are a true gentleman to behave this way through this tough event. The Very Best for you and yours in the future!!
I have been thinking you must be the most patient man on earth to have kept in the mood you have. Then I remembered that my U320 was at MOT for over six months last year and they blamed it on Zip Dee parts. I pray that your coach will run many more years without incident.
Thanks for all the good wishes and great help on this situation. We had absolutely nothing scheduled for January, February, or March, so the only real plan we had was to work our way slowly across Texas before heading up to SW MO for our campground host gig in April. If we had to have a major breakdown this was certainly the time for it. While we were here we were able to sign up for a Habitat For Humanity build in Alice, TX which isn't all that far from here (by Texas standards).
We've made some great friends at the church here and gotten to see a part of Texas that we hadn't planned on seeing on this trip. We've gotten to know quite a few of the staff here at the hotel and we're all a bit sad that our stay with them is coming to a close, but at the same time we're excited to see what's coming next. We do have plans to meet up with two other Foretravelers over the next few weeks and hope to meet more of you later.
We've started hauling stuff back to the coach. Looks like at least two more loads to go. Talked to the mechanic and service manager, and they will call tomorrow afternoon (unless we're there with another load) to give us a firm done date. All of the parts are in (we think) and now it is just a matter of putting all of the parts together. I'm guessing that tomorrow we'll be told that we can leave on Thursday.
I think I would plan on staying there for at least a day or two, drive the coach for as many miles locally as you can and test it rigorously and make sure everything is done correctly before leaving town.
Best of luck -
Chris
Break it in, both mechanically and thermally. A little time now can pay big dividends over the long haul.
Me, I would find a road less traveled and start out one mile at 10 MPH, then drop 5 MPH for a mile then up 10 MPH for a mile, and then repeat until you are where you are comfortable with your top speed. Then pull over someplace, let the engine idle for about 5 minutes, then shut off and go somewhere for 3-4 hours. Come back and do the exercise again, back to the start point. Change oil soon.
I have done that with my vehicles when I bought new. Amazing how much longer they lasted and how much faster they were.
Chris, we've talked about that as a possibility. There is a big rodeo going on here in San Angelo and every hotel room in town is booked - at top rates. Checkout time is noon, so unless we get a call tomorrow morning saying the coach will be done tomorrow, we're here for another night. Most likely we will get the coach on Thursday. I doubt that there are any campsites open here, but we'll check tomorrow. We're also looking at places 60 miles or so out from here. The service manager said that driving directly from here to Hondo, towing the Jeep, would not be any problem.
One part of me wants to assume that all will be well and head straight on to Hondo. The other part of me says to assume that there will be a problem and therefore staying close by is a good idea. I should probably just go to bed and wait to find what's what tomorrow.
Nighthawk, that's an interesting way of working it. I'll ask the shop about doing that. Since they are the ones that are providing the warranty I'll do things their way.
Cummins has a very specific procedure for "breaking in" a rebuilt engine. I would find out what DD specifically recommends and do that. A day or two not too far away might be a good idea. After Cummins rebuilt our engine we left on a 5,000 mile trip, a bit nervous for a while but confidence comes with time and performance.
Hondo would be fine, or anywhere in a 60 mile radius. That would keep,you close enough to get back to their shop if needed. I guess my point was: stay close enough that you can get back to the shop if necessary, because getting in to another shop might be time-consuming, and costly as opposed to the place that did the work for you.
I would stay no more than 20 mil a way for at least two days. Drive the coach for 2-4 hours a day. Drive it for 20 mil stop/start, drive it for another 5 stop/start, drive it for 50 mil stop start. At each stop look, listen smell. After what you have been through for what now 5-6 weeks and the "coach bucks" invested I would make sure. Best of luck to you. We have been following your misfortune and keeping you in our thoughts for best outcome for you. You are such a patient man ^.^d I admire you.
Roger,what were the circumstances of your rebuild? Us Cummins people are curious.
We're checking on campgrounds in the area now. I suspect that we'll have to go out more than 20 miles due to the rodeo. There are a couple of places about 60 miles away with campgrounds that may not be full. Of course, we haven't been released yet, so it is difficult to make definite plans.
I don't know how much, if any, break-in driving the shop will do. They have a published test drive route, and I'm sure that they aren't going to put the last part back on, pour oil and coolant in, then hand me the keys and say "Bye, bye."
David,
This may help you find a campground close by. A lot of the towns out in that area have city parks that may not have but 2-5 sites but we have stopped at several. Just scroll down to the city you are at.
http://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/trv/campgrounds.pdf
Pamela
Junction, Fredericksburg, Kerrville are just a few nice places that come to mind. Closer than Hondo, also.
Chris
David, There is a RV park on the west side of Brady, also one south by the lake cant say where just saw the signs a few times, You probably know of these but never know, Mason has a county park on the east side of town that is nice, Fredericksburg has 4 I think also, Good Luck you have had your share of trials,
Just got back from the shop. All parts are present, and the mechanic has two helpers working with him. He feels pretty good about predicting that we will be released tomorrow! We've checked with the local KOA (I know, I don't really like them either) and they will have a place for us to stay. At least it will be cheaper than the hotel.
We're going to drive around some tomorrow when we're released to get fuel and maybe propane if time permits. If there is sufficient time we'll drive to Eden and back, varying speed as much as I can, and see how things go. Since the service manager has said that we could immediately hook up the Jeep and head to Hondo IF all looks good after the first trip we MAY head down that way. We'll just have to see how things go.
That IS good news!
happy trails
Just got off the phone with the shop. Barring anything unforeseen the coach will be released TODAY!!! It is likely to be later in the day, so we'll probably just go straight to the KOA and start getting ourselves back into our home. Tomorrow we can get fuel and drive around a bit here before heading to Hondo. Of course, if there is ANYTHING that doesn't seem right we'll be right back at Freightliner and expecting them to fix it immediately.
A warranty in writing is good in court if necessary. A spoken warranty will get you nothing.
An engine breakin done their way will not, most likely, void a warranty.
I remember asking a store personnel how long the warranty on driveway sealer is good for. Her reply was---until I get the pails past the checkout. The manufacturers can come up with a million reasons for the sealer to have failed, and not one of them theirs.
Freightliner was supposed to call us this morning to let us know if they would be done today or not, since we were supposed to be out of the hotel by noon. Shortly after 11 I called them. One of the service people was supposed to call me right back. Nearly 30 minutes later I called them and the guy who was supposed to call me answered and said that he had just come in. Everything was looking good for us to be released today, so we loaded up the last of the stuff from the room (read: cat and her stuff) and headed over. We actually had a few errands to run first, so it was nearly 3:00 when we arrived there.
Learned something new right away. The engine can be started from the rear regardless of the key in the front. I always thought the key had to be ON before the remote start would work. May have to check on that soon.
Anyway, I helped the mechanic hang the door, put on the tow bar, etc. Then they had me back it into the wash bay so they could wash off the bottom of the engine in order to better see of there were any problems on the test drive. We went on a 15 mile test drive and all was fine. LOTS more power, especially from a start. When we got back the mechanic had me pull up to his area and he got a creeper to see if there was any problem visible. He immediately found one. One of the few parts they didn't replace was leaking - the oil pressure sender. They don't have one in stock and it would be next week before we could get one. He said it wasn't a problem, just keep an eye on the oil level. That can't leak any worse than the rest of the engine did, so we're heading to Hondo, TX tomorrow.
I'm looking forward to a good night's sleep in my own bed after 46 nights in a hotel.
Praise God!
Safe Travels!
John M.
Ours also works without the key which can be very handy.
Enjoy your "new" engine ^.^d
Dear David and JoAnn....
I have to wonder, did this episode work in good ways we or you do not see or know? From your faith you will think on that...and some will laugh that I could not be serious. But you surely showed the best that I could be in even less such circumstances, you and we were blessed to see the squadrons of defenders who would come to give you aid and comfort, you found a way to modify your schedule to help another Habitat project or similar, and probably we have no idea who will be blessed that your track was diverted.
I hope David your church has a way to help you, that experience was so financially costly. Last I knew you were thinking of selling the RV, that doing so would help your ministry. Maybe this works into guiding those plans as well?
Be safe guys, call when near. I oft remember that first RV when you came to Nac!
46 nights in a hotel! I hope the hotel has and you signed up for "points" We did that at a La Quinta when we came back from Europe. We were in that hotel kitchenette for three months (with a cat) We earned quite a few free nights (which can be donated as well) So call your hotel and ask about this.
Good luck and many blessings.
First observations: There is a LOT more power. I varied the rpm's from about 1400 to 1800 when we were just driving straight and level. The transmission downshifted a couple of times on some hills, but not nearly as often as before, and we never slowed down all that much going up the hills. Before, we'd often be in 2nd gear and 25 mph. Today I don't think we dropped below 45.
I filled the diesel tank yesterday right after leaving the shop. We didn't do very well on that tank (2.3 mpg) but the generator ran for 10 days straight (yes, I did have to add fuel, and that isn't included in that number). Today we got 6.3, which is a bit less than what we normally get. I suspect, though, that fuel economy will improve as we drive it.
Yes, we will probably put the coach up for sale again, but maybe not quite yet. We really enjoyed a good night's sleep in our own bed, and fixing our own breakfast this morning. Driving this is a lot of fun. There were a few days left on our rvtrader.com ad, so I just upped the price by $10,000 to see what happens. If you have a guess as to what we should ask for it please PM me. We'll be working on an ad over the next few weeks.
Yes, we did get a lot of points for our stay there. I don't know how many, but it was a bunch. I think Jo Ann has the exact number. I can't say enough about the staff there. They really went above and beyond what they needed to do. I highly recommend that hotel.
I live just north of San Antonio and was wondering what the final cost was for your engine overhaul?
Bill