Foretravel Owners' Forum

You will note in the first item of my thread, "continuing PDI" that Mr. Risch found an issue. Then from that I learned of check valves on the fresh water line and posted that separately. fresh water check valve (back flow preventer), for Newbies (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30009.msg257138#msg257138)

Now it is time to report on the repair to the bulkhead and so I started a new thread for that that anyone seeking such can find it in a search.

Mr Risch noticed a small gap between the fiberglass and the structure of the frame near the rear of the utility bay door, right in front of the drive rear tires.  When he found it, he called to say it needed to be sealed and he would take care of it.

Upon further work by the technician for Mr. Risch, he said it needed a more detailed look.  If you, particularly a newbie, were to look under your coach at the rear bulkhead, you would see that the entire coach forward from the rear wheels/bulkhead is covered and sealed in by a fiberglass cover over all the frame and such. It was at the outside edge of this, the seal behind the utility bay door, where the fiberglass should seal to the frame but there was a small crack or opening about 1/8 inches wide along that edge.  Water can intrude there from rain splatter but also the reel water hose was back flushing water into the bay before we owned it and seeped  down into the bulkhead.

SO...MOT cut out a section of the fiberglass from one side of the coach to the other to expose the framework in the forward part of the bulkhead, to expose the metal tubing frame.  In there was some rust, even some holes, in the outside edges of the square tubing which forms the forward part of the bulkhead to which the back attaches with about a dozen plus or so bolts.

MOT had a local shop remove the metal frame and build a new one.  It is made one gauge heavier than the original and the bulkhead is bolted together with bolts and nuts, not self-taping type of screws as I understand what the shop told me. 

In the photos below you can get a sense of what was rebuilt. They built an entire new section that goes from the utility bay hose door on back to complete the bulkhead.  Next comes the fiberglass panel that covers all of this. 

You can see that it is vital that we check the seal all the way across the bulkhead fiberglass to metal seam and along the outside edges too.

If I learn more about this process that might be of interest, I will advise or you send me a pm if need. 

Mike,

Excellent write up.

It always concerns me when I hear that all you need to do to fix any bulkhead is clean the angle to square tube joint and then huck bolt it back together.

Sure, that COULD be fine.  But it ASSUMES that the square tubing has not degraded.  Boy is that an ASSUMPTION.

If rust jacking has caused multiple Rolok bolts to break and/or rust jacking has caused the basement floor (viewed from under the coach) to be raised where the beams are (rust expands compared with clean metal), opening it up is the correct treatment.

And, I suspect water intrusion into the wet bay is the #1 cause of bulkhead issues.  Yes, up north where they use salt on the roads the salt water can migrate in past the Rolok bolt heads, as they were not sealed (the serrated head of the Rolocks allows a water path between the bolt head and the angle beam.  Masking the bolt heads with tape and then using standard automotive undercoating on the angle where the bolts are located is a very good preventive.

Brett, should the bottom of tube not be welded to each other, or in other words a 100% weld aroud perimiter. That would surely be stronger??
JohnH

John,

I'm assuming that the welding has not been finished.

This is a great set of photos. And yes, with the bottom open, install the next size larger stainless or hot dipped galvanized fasteners with nuts/washers at the other end. The Roloks should be destroyed in a special ceremony.

Back side of the big angle iron is almost always going to have quite a bit of rust even if the underside is very clean. Photo is of the first 18."

I drilled and then used a borescope to check the interior of our tubing for rust.

Pierce

Well with that insulation already in I would think it IS done!!
JohnH

Perhaps a trial fit with the insulation? :D  It looks as if photo #2 should be the first photo with the tubing tack welded into place. Photo #1 looks like the welding may have been completed and then the steel painted. I can't bring the resolution up enough to tell for sure. Like to see close ups.

Pierce

Saw Michael's coach at MOT, two bays down from ours and the repair in progress.  Keith also looked at ours and after the same inspection process it was determined that we too have an issue that should be addressed.  The welder is coming Monday to take a look and give his recommendations as to what must be done.  Not happy to hear that we had this problem but are glad that we were here to catch it and fix it.  This problem is primarily hidden by the fiberglas underbelly cover  and had it not been for Michael's current repair ours would possibly have gone undetected.  This is not a deal breaker.  It will take some shekels to repair but is repairable.  This post is a great reminder for those of you with older coaches to have it inspected to assure that your bulkhead is solid.  Even the most well maintained coach could have this problem.

Thanks Michael -  ;)

"Next comes the fiberglass panel that covers all of this". 
Pierce, this comment above seems to me to say that it is done as far as welding and I am not sure that any painting has been done, just different photo shots that give definition changes. Cannot imagine putting ins' in just to do a frame check.??
I would have had it removed to be welded 100%, lots of extra strength and movement possibilties. Just my 2 cents.
JohnH

It was not repaired in place nor was it even repaired, the entire section was removed and remade.  They used FOT drawings and specs except went with one gauge thicker tubing.  This not that shop's first repair.  MOT selected them based on history of several repair options.  Mr Risch then went twice to inspect the progress.

I too went to the shop to meet the people, visit with them.  Emphasized desire very good job. About all I could do, was not able to stay with them due to other activities plus I am not educated how to judge them.  I know they varied from the original fasteners and if I had Brett or John or Don Hay around I might better have known if that phase was ok.  They talked to me about the bolts and torque, tubing.....sounded good!

That said, I trust MOT and that has served me well, as I am sure you could do with other shops where you do business.  MOT has always covered their work and I trust Mr. Risch totally, and he selected this as appropriate repair procedure,

The curiosity I had...as a novice...was how can you weld one tubing end to end to another and be strong enough when you put the new section up in place?  Well, duh....just like I did with my framing wood, put a bracing metal along the sides of the tubing.

I bet you when Scott gets his done you will know much more as i suspect he has great knowkedge of such type of work and can hopefully document it better.  I did not have a camera along when it would have helped track the progress!

Thanks for your interest, I value your help and advice..

No John, you are quite correct. The word was would seem to indicate that it was complete. They could have just tacked it, removed it and then finish welded it before installing it. Welders are usually  pretty sharp as they have to be certified to do a lot of jobs like railings, staircases, etc. Does seem unconventional to have the insulation in place before finishing the bottom welds. With a wire feed, you can easily do overhead welds but like you say, why?

Pierce

As a point of information, the original welds were all done only on the two vertical sides, not at all on the top and bottom. This was obviously strong enough to serve the purpose, as long as the metal remains uncompromised by corrosion. The quality of the welds is very good on the welds I viewed while redoing the basement/bulkhead on our coach. That said, I welded all four sides of the tubing on my repairs. This requires extra work to end up with smooth joints which will not prevent the Fiberglas skin from tenting over the welded seams. This involves chamfering the edges of the tubing to create a space for the weld puddle to lay in as well as some careful clean up with a grinder. It is much more labor intensive to work this way and perhaps not really needed in the basement and wall framing. I will say that in the places where heavy duty stress is present like much of the supension and engine carriage etc., the tubing is usually welded on all sides and the quality of those welds look very good indeed.
Don

So how did they find your issue and now Scott's.  I had both MOT and Rance look at my rear bulkhead many times when in for service.  The last time was just last year.  I like the way you say they are fixing it and it will prevent the sidewall issue I have seen after FOT fixed a coach. 

While at Xtreme Rance did look at our bulkhead and did comment that I should cover the exposed angle iron with a corrosion resistive coating - paint - and that I should monitor.  Rance said that it didn't appear to require immediate attention but they would provide a yearly inspection to monitor the condition.  He also mentioned that while I was down there I should place some screws to "pull up" the edge of the fiberglass pan by the angle iron on the bulk head and seal the edge.  I think the trigger here was the edge of the fiberglass pan hanging down slightly - maybe .125" by the angle iron cross piece.  This allowed water to get to areas that are unseen.

The causality of bulkhead corrosion has been documented on this Fofum in many threads, ie:  Fresh water tank overfill, waste water leakage, fresh water pump leaks as well as fresh water hose leaks as well as driving in rain and salt covered snow/slush. 

I believe that the detection of the issue and the remediation was based on experienced eyes having seen many good ones and many that required repair.  I understand that Michael, while at MOT yesterday, asked Keith to look closer and our assembly as his is being repaired as we speak.  The underlying theme is that these assemblies should be inspected, and with time and increased corrosion, a rebuild and replacement may be required.  The cost is not significant in the larger scope of FT ownership and might be considered necessary for some of our older coaches.  I consider this in the same category as air bag, tire and other maintenance/replacement items.

While our assembly has been repeatedly inspected over the years, most recently one year ago, in our case, time is our enemy and a lot can happen in a year.

I would guess Michael will add comments when he sees these latest comments.

Regarding the amount of welds that are used to secure the parts together, I will inquire when the part is being fabricated as to the increased effectiveness of more/longer welds.  I think that generally speaking more is better but do not think that that is always true.  Sometimes welds can weaken the assembly and only through yield and tensile as well as destructive testing results can produce accurate data that can be reviewed to determine process effectiveness and define best practice.  Sometimes the fabricator/welder has acquired the necessary experience to assemble the part using a wld pattern to best secure the parts together.  I hope that is the case with these rebuilt assemblies.

More to follow.

these comments of mine are only my thughts but having spent many years in the metal business ie- fabrication (but not as a welder/ engineer, I personally woyld do 100% welds. I seem to remember Bernd's frame replacement being that way and then ground down on the top and bottom faces for the finish materials then painted.
This also does not allow any moisture to creep into the inside of the build.
Just my thoughts.
JohnH

John and Scott...MOT and Xtreme both may have seen this as they had the coach within the last year, Xtreme when I had the small delam repair maybe.  But they were not asked to do an overall coach inspection.  Even for me, I thought a quick check of the metal seam for a wave. 

In this visit I  had not asked MOT to look at the bulkhead....recall that for this Annual i added a request that Mr Risch spend two hours just looking around, no check list.  I reported elsewhere what he found.  I run often into customers that seem to think annual maintenance would catch other things, not so.

The only thing about the bulkhead Mr Risch saw on this topic was a clue by a small gap between the underneath fiberglass and metal, where it is supposed to be tight, sealed.  Not so much of a gap so as to hang down, just more like a visible small space where he saw missing sealant.  I could have noticed when using the utility bay.  There was no fiberglass visibly loose across the coach side to side where sealed to the bulkhead.

It reminds me of the lack of really good seal of the fiberglass edge MOT James Johnson found when he did slide bladder replacement.  In that case though it is only visible when the slide is removed.  James added new sealant simply as precaution to moisture intrusion with a resultant delam.  I had no damage, this just opportunistic precaution.

That is what Risch at first thought was needed on the undeneath fiberglass.  Reseal.  Note, when apart, the only real rust damage was at the ends of the tubing at curb side.  There was not much rust and no holes that i saw beyond the two ends where it was sugnificant.  The  welders showed me the holes, really thin metal that did remain, and the tube was packed with dirt and rust.  Was not a new thing, been going on.

The welders said my damage was quite minor compared to the repair done before me where there was even some bending of the metal frame due to loss of some structure.

Scott will know much more so maybe await his analysis as do his work.  I counting on that to judge if mine done correctly but i have no reason to think not.  Risch has been very good judge of what to do and how and watching my dime yet knows I will not save money to buy an inferior anything.

How much did all this cost, Michael?  I've got a feeling that I will have to budget for this, after I replace my radiator.

I hesitate to answer you but want to help.  This was managed by MOT and the billing is from the shop to them.

I was told an estimate of $3000 plus some change possible, TBD after extent of damage determined and repair completed. Took two  guys.  I cannot say if they spent every minute on it or parts of days, but was at their shop 2.5 days.

will be glad to share actual cost when get bill.....it came along during Annual Service, so I have that bill plus the several things that were found in the inspection that were small and in the other report I posted but then this added substantial to the bill.

Good thing we love the coach or may have to argue with Jackie on repairs, but she never a question about any expense on it, none!

Good  to know, we will be in Nac. later this spring for Extreme to do their thing & will have MOT do an inspection. .... fingers crossed

Mike,

    I remember someone commenting that his insurance paid to have his repaired.
Have you or anyone explored this? I am looking at another coach and hope it does
not have a problem, but it seems most do. Almost makes me want to stay with an
older coach with an Oshkosh chassis, old man with an old coach.

Carter-

This was long term damage, usual wear and tear i think,  not from an incident.  Would not deter me buying a coach.  just inspect for it, factor in cost or possible cost if not carefully prevented.

Mike, I do not think it is usual wear and tear but under the heading of most not knowing what to do to prevent this issue. I guarantee 99% of owners do not keep a regular check of the issues UNDER the coach (it is almost impossible to do) and those Rolocks etc and this is what causes the later problems. FT built great coach's but fell short on a few issues that cause major $ problems to owners.
Most also have bad water leaks that are NOT fixed asap and door seal leaks along with wet bay opening leaks etc etc that all add to problems. Many pictures that are posted show me that these issues are not looked after. I am continually going from front to back making sure I have no road water entering anywhere and if I see it I fix it. Spraying the Bulkhead angle and under it is a big part in Preventative care to keep water going past those Rolocks. (Brett has mentioned this many times)
I do realise many cannot do this due to one issue or another but it has to be done by someone in the know.
Respectfully.
John

My reply about normal wear and tear was really rooted in insurance language.  If something could been prevented regardless the effort, if not from an event as an accident, they not pay.

It seems to me few know all the ways to do maintenance or what needs maintenance and thus some things become fairly frequent repair needs over the years.

Thanks

My comment was regarding the Bulkhead issue and exactly the one you also mention " many do not know what needs to be a regular issue to keep it in good condition". we all spend thousands  buying /changing them but I still say the one item that is regularily overlookeed is the underneath. Then an issue happens and we say "why"?
A nice shiny body and fancy fridges are fine but not much good if we let them rot from the bottom up. Good thing they can be replaced (framing) or it would all be for nought.
I am not implying anything else.
JohnH

John,

When my partner first visited the states, he could not believe how we polish the paint and Armor All the interiors but neglect to detail the engine and undercarriage when we sell our vehicles. Quite right about focusing on the shiny interior but ignoring some easy maintenance that is not so visible. Out of sight, out of mind. All RV have some weak points and ours are no different. Buyers need to focus less on the vinyl Ultraleather, instead checking the known areas that are potential trouble spots. It's just not that hard to start with bulkhead in relatively good condition and replace the Roloks with better fasteners. If the coach is driven in winter on northern roads, the belly HAS to be washed down to minimize the damage they do. Otherwise, there WILL be problems down the road. Same goes for water leaks, etc.

The older the coach is, the more of a knowledgeable DIYer you must be. Otherwise, you wake up one morning with a damaged bulkhead needing extensive repair or a damaged engine. Just because a manufacturer designed it a certain way, does not make it correct. I remember the saying in the 60's, "question authority." For many RV problems, it's "question the manufacture" when certain issues keep cropping up. Nothing worse than parents who think their child never does anything wrong and keep defending them against all evidence to the contrary.

Pierce

As for insurance paying for both kid repair, it is a function of how the loss is presented to the insurance company.
If the damage is believed to be due to water leakage into the wet bay area, in general you will have an insured loss if water damage is covered in your comprehensive policy.
If the damage is deemed to be due to normal wear and tear, road salt, or other normal everyday operating procedures you likely will have your claim denied.
I believe Bernd Ramspeck has had at least two large repair is covered by insurance in this manner.

I have learned that many really just want to use RVs and not work on it in any way.  One friend's annual maintenance is Camping World oil change for $300.  That is it.  Salesman told me, many buyers just ask, it that a diesel in the back? 

Perhaps there is a checklist or course in maintenance available to cover everything but not seen it so try to learn from friends and forums.  Also, many people do not have time or ability to perform everything, they hire it done.  It may be obvious to some what it should include, but not so to many others.  Some are very mechanical in their views, some are not even interested.  One best friend in high school became a master mechanic.  Another could do huge things with mainframes but no idea how to check the oil on a VW.  Different skills.

I was on a trip with a good friend, twice problems.  He told me, I bought this coach to take and use, not spend my life with it in shop or me working on it.  It for fun, relaxation, maybe not for me......have enough issues at work.  (He has busy life.)

As for me, just not smart enough or educated enough to catch the small seal gap.  My bad.  Probably are more in spite of the effort I expend.

P.S.  Tim, mine is believed by MOT to be water from the wet bay, not road spray as there is minimal rust and not used by us on salted roads and I avoid the coast.

Mike, don't sell yourself short! You have a LOT to add to the forum. Members involved enough to publish and read these posts gives anyone a real head start on those who don't.

I can honestly say that I have never met someone where I wasn't envious of the knowledge and skills they have. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. The forum is a great place to blend all this knowledge together and prosper from it.

Many times I find myself typing rapidly and while trying to impart some experiences I have had, I may not be the most tactful in my quick replies. Apologies.

Pierce

Update -

Took some pics of the corroded section. 

Keep in mind that the corrosion in the pics is covered by the undercarriage fiberglass cover pan.  This corrosion can not be casually observed.  It is covered by the pan.  Keith R @ MOT saw the undercarriage pan sagging about .125" towards the center of the coach next to the angle iron with the bolt heads.  The screws had pulled out of the corroded tubing.

At first look the tubing structure appears to only hold the undercarriage fiberglass pan in place.  However, Keith R. informed that that section is an important part of the structural chassis and if it was not repaired it would cause flexing of the body that would show itself eventually in side wall cracking.  I have been all over the web looking for a diagram of the chassis and it's construction so the section could be "seen", but have not found anything yet.  I will see if FT has something - maybe an old promotional piece.

I did not take a pic of the angle piece that has the bolt head showing in front of the rear tire.  The angle iron with the bolts in them did not appear to be overly corroded.

Our coach is off to the welder tomorrow morning and should be done sometime Wednesday.  So we will be spending the night in a motel close to the kids and G-kids in Magnolia.

I will check with MOT tomorrow to see if they have developed an inspection process.

Forgot to ask the welder today about the "weld issue" but will ask tomorrow before we pull out of town.

Estimated cost to repair - between $ 1800.00 to $3,000.00.

Maybe the best way to see/inspect this area is to have 18" to 20" cut all of the way across the coach in front of the angle iron with the bolt heads.

I hesitate making this post as I do not wish to unduly alarm folks that have coaches with this type of chassis construction, but those that do, should be aware that this does exist. 

Now that is scary and add to the fact I had the bulkhead checked every year since it was discovered.  It means that the new check is to cut the bottom back.

Wow just seeing that gives me a sick feeling :o.
Glad you found it before anything bad happened!

Here is my friends in Idaho. Coach came from Alaska. He is  fixing it himself.
He did the bolt repair once before.
I watch ours, but it has been weld with a strip across, then sealed.No Rust
Chris

 Don't think that sealing it will prevent the rust. The water can come from inside as well.  I think after seeing this and knowing how I inspected the bulked very often that the only way to tell is to cut the bottom pan.

Scott, my question is, how far back did this rust go?
JohnH

Cover the entire bottom with Lexan so we can keep an eye on things?

I would have responded sooner but the MacBook Pro was updating it's OS.

It appears that the corrosion is most severe by the angle iron and  extends forward about 16".    It decreases in intensity as you look forward.  It seems as if the water pooled there or was the wettest there for the longest period of time - over and over again.  I suppose if the seal between the fiberglass belly pan and the square tube bolted to the angle iron was broken so water could/would seep into the distressed area - capillary action?.  Also strange the worst corrosion appears to be on the outside corners of the square tube that is bolted to the angle iron. 

Chris - I am not an expert in this area, but I would hope that your friend completely understand what he is doing.  That section is an integral structural assembly and should be replaced by a knowledgeable welder.  The welder that is replacing that material on our Ol' Girl Too, is increasing the thickness of the square tube wall with material that is 3 times thicker than OEM.

Spoke with John S on the phone a short time ago and he suggested that now would be the time to extend the fresh water overflow to below the fiberglass belly pan.  It will be done.

The more I think about this problem the more questions become apparent.  Too easy to second guess how it happened, why it happened and what could have been done differently for this not to have happened.

The important thing is that it was detected by a very knowledgeable guy and he was able to bring this problem to my attention so it can be repaired. 

Yeah - The 3 CB are important but if the 3 CB are significant to the point that will cause me to sell the coach or not buy one then I should not be doing this in the first place.  In my way of thinking it should be considered in the same category as replacing tires, batteries and many other things that must be maintained over time.  Nothing lasts forever.  After all, I am old, bald and fat.  Oh that I was still 20 or 30 or 40 or even 50.  Well maybe not 50, I was losing my hair then but was not yet too fat.  :D

Scott I like the beefing up of wall section and wonder why others have not gone up that amount in previous repairs. As long as the outside dimension is kept the same the heavier the thickness is the better as far as I go . When they join the new to old are they bolting it there as well as angle or welding it as it would be impossible to weld the top side?
JohnH

John - I will cross the welding issues with the welder tomorrow before they begin to cut the old out and replace with the new assembly. 

Michael H's coach was repaired by the same welding company and he too has increased wall thickness in the same OD dimension of the square tubing that makes up the assembly.  As to why others didn't "beef" up the wall thickness I can only guess.  I am getting tired of guessing. 

I just want this chapter to end so we can burn some diesel on our way to AZ.  ;D

Wow, looking at all the photos showing the results of water leakage, it does seem that when replacement frames are welded in, they should be 100% seal welded between all possible areas ( a small seam can be welded without it compromising the actual height of the tube ). This will stop any possible capillary action of water ingress. The final connection between the old frame and the replacement frame could be coated with an epoxy sealer (or ?) on the top edge of the frame, which would be allowed to cure before a small 100% seal weld is applied on the lower joint ( the heat generated by the weld will not compromise the epoxy seal ).
just my thoughts,
GeoffH
edit:
need to do some thinking regarding strength integrity

Geoff, you would have it made of stainless I know as all you work with is SS. Just think ,never another issue with that again.
One thing I keep wondering about re the frame replacement at Bernd's is I never heard what the cost of that total replacement was, does anyone have that figure??
JohnH

If at all possible, I prefer to leave the bottom open to allow moisture or condensation to escape and not be trapped causing degredation somewhere in the future.  In a perfect world moisture would never enter, but my world is far from perfect.

I had to do this to my coach after I noticed the house battery tray sinking into the floor. The rear bulkhead showed no gap. When I cut out all the rusted structure I had to go forward 6 feet to find solid steel to graft a new frame work to. I attribute this rust to years of wet bay leakage not being properly addressed.
I would suggest that any leak in the belly of the coach is unacceptable no matter how small.
I used 60ft of new tubing and spent a week under my coach welding.
My coach is a 1989 and the original frame lasted until now so as much as I hated to have to do the job It will now outlive me..
I'm still a fan of the brand.
Good luck!

Andy, how did you mate up the new framing to old??
JohnH

Wow. These are alarming pics. Does anyone ever cut the the fiberglass belly open to find "0" problems. I like to hope so.

 Our coach spent a lot of time in so cal so I hope it's ok.  I will be opening the belly up when the weather breaks this spring to replace the rolocks at the very least.    Fascinating post.

I have not seen cutting the bottom done as a regular check. I think I would do this to my coach if I still owned it. I would probably travel to MOT and let them cut it and then let their guy weld up the fix if needed. I know that we looked and checked our bulkhead for years at every service at MOT land any time I stopped at Xtreme I had Rance look it over too. Scott's pictures shocked me and I know we're we're very careful with water overflow and con not think of a time other then changing out the reels that water was inside the bay. I bought it used and put a lot of miles on but I do remember talking to a1999 owner who had 370k on his unit and drove it in the snow too and he said he was on his third rear end.  It did not sink in then as I was a new owner back in 2002 and this issue had not really made the forum though it seems that FT was fixing it for him.

Mike,
If you have a sewer hose storage arrangement like we had it would be prudent to check the silicone seal where the box passes through the outside wall. I found ours leaking between the wall skins, eventually down to the bulkhead. I removed and sealed it off.
I just completed repairs on both bulkheads and utilized GE Iron Grip to reinstall the skin.

Bob

Got any pictures Mike?

No one has spoken about preping the new steel in case a partial or full replacement is needed. After it's ready to go and cleaned, a self etching primer would be good followed by rust resistant paint. For the interior, nothing is better than boiled linseed oil as a few ounces will creep up the sides until it covers the interior of the tubing.

Pierce

Larry Rubin had that done to his new frame at Xtreme  before installation.

Suggest LPS3 for rust prevention

Lordy.  As if I don't have enough trouble sleeping at night! 

Will put this thread on my list of things to check.  Thank you for all the good updates.

Chris

A  few years ago I drilled 3/8 holes in the ends of tubing below doors and pushed a 1/4" clear plastic line in the complete length then width of tubes and used my underseal low pressure gun to spray a mixture of wax and oil into them along the Bulkhead angles and the length as mentioned. I used plastic plugs to close off the holes and did notice for a few months that I was getting a drip here and there through those tubes. I used to do this on my BMW 7 series and never had any rust that I knew of. The spray and oil system I use is called KROWN Rust System and was not cheap but think I got my monies worth over the years. Later on I did take 4 Rolocks out at different points and they looked brand new ( I did post a picture then to show)
I  guess once home when I am under it I should cut back the Filon to double check condition. If any problems I will rebuild the framing with SSteel as I was discussing this topic last night with him. I have no visible signs of any problems and keep the Bays very clean and dry. My wet bay has never had any water come in since I bought it and changed the sewer flap to one that totally seals off the road.
JohnH

John I don't find anything about your sewer flap change.  What did you do?  I have replaced all of the gaskets but still get sone dirt and I am sure moisture in there and it is just another exposed edge.

Have been following this thread and an idea came to mind. Thought I would
throw it out here to find it's flaws. How would it work to use some type of
spray foam inside of these partially welded tubing parts to keep moisture
out of them???

Carter-

Roger, the post I mentioned was for the Rolocks.
On that sewer door what I did was extend the length of it a couple inches each way and around the edge I put a strip of foam sealer tape so it shut tight. I then made up a small deflector for each end and stuck one in front and rear of the flap so that also kept road dirt away. Both these items work great and I do not get any moisture etc in that opening.
JohnH

Carter, I see a problem in that water will get past the foam and it will then stay for quite a while before drying up. My opinion anyway
JohnH

If doing a full replacement I would suggest either Using stainless, aluminum ( different wall thickness of course) or galvanizing the assembly which would coat inside and outside of the tubing.

When I do mine ( hopefully not for a while yet) the tubing that lines up with the bulkhead angle iron will get punched out to a larger dimension hole and a machined sleeve will be welded in so that when it is bolted together there is no crush to the tubing.

I carefully checked and after installing a 3/8" grade 8 bolt/nut and torquing to grade 8 specs, there was no crushing of the tubing. If you cut a channel in the foam the entire width, run a bolt all the way through and then put a washer with a nyloc (nylon insert lock nut) you don't have to worry at all.

With the exception of the one grade 8 fastener, I installed 3/8" 316 stainless fasteners. If the tubing is in good shape, the number of fasteners across the bulkhead are a huge overkill.

The bulkhead/basement design and implementation are poorly done. The big angle iron probably should have been spaced out 1/16" from the sheet metal bulkhead face to allow drying and cleaning, closed cell foam insulation  and removable access panels underneath should have been Incorporated in the design. The whole structure should have then been galvanized. Roloks are for commercial structures in a dry environment.

Pierce

Well, this post has been an eye opener for sure... I'm a huge believer in preventive maintenance and since our recent 2002 U320 purchase, been scouring the forum for what maintenance to do, and on what schedule. I'm able and very willing to tackle the routine maintenance.

The bulk head issue was an item I studied and found  great info here on the forum. I knew it certainly had to be a periodic maintenance task to check.

My initial inspection of the bulkhead bolts and under carrage of this "new to us" coach did not show the typical signs of concern that others have reported. All bolts looked excellent, no rust, bottom looked real clean. I had packed a torque wrench, but felt since the bottom was so clean there was no need to break out the tools. I did not consider, or inspect the filon panel seals or wet bay.

For my piece of mind, and because I really do not have the experience yet of the vast majority of you-all, I scheduled  TODAY an appointment at MOT on our way from Tuscan to the Northeast in March to have the undercarriage completely inspected by the folks at MOT.  Hopefully no issues but well worth the investment in "coach bucks" ???

Once again, great exchange of very good information here, especially the pictures. Thank you!

"New guy learning"...  Jeff

I think you did the right thing. Scott has my old coach and it has been inspected each year by MOT or Rance at Xtreme. I was shocked and dismayed to see Scott's post and talked with him. If I had seen this in another coach, I would be going to MOT to get it checked too. I think this might be an issue with all the coaches of a certain vintage. That will need further attention

John,

  Any guess as to what years should be suspect?
I don't think ant of us saw this happening.

Carter-

Carter,

The bulkhead issue is nothing new.

Here is an 8 year old post: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8645.0)

It applies to any of the Unihome and Unibody coaches, not ORED's.

I don't have first hand information on the new Foretravels structure.

Let's not overblow this.  In most cases the box beams are still in good enough condition that the bulkhead can be "reconditioned" as described in the document above. 

Sure, if the box beams are rusted out, they will have to be replaced.

Over the years, yes, I have observed some in terrible condition (one of the recent ones was one that had the whole basement structure replaced), but have also see those with no issues or just a couple of broken Rolocks.

Scott and answers yet on how the joining of new frame to old is being done?
JohnH

As I understand the process:. All of the corroded material will be cut back to the nearest clean crossmember.  Then the new assembly will be placed in position and secured via welds and bolts by the angle iron.

Hmm. The bulkhead repair and inspection has been well documented in this forum. Virtually all Foretravel (excepting those on Oshkosh chassis) share the same basic design and construction.

Two factors that increase chance of corrosion - operating in winter on salt treated roads, and persistent leaks in the wet bay (fist bay forward of the rear axle) that allow intrusion of water into the rear bulkhead joint from above, where it becomes trapped and accelerates corrosion. Some have pointed to coaches that live in coastal areas as possibly more prone to issues.

I am actually encouraged by this report. First and foremost, this repair, while creating a seam in the fiberglass underbody seems more pragmatic than the recent repairs at Bernd Ramspeck's shop. While Bernd's work was top notch, when I was at his shop and saw the removed structure, it seemed that 90%+ was intact and sound. To replace the entire structure from the front bulkhead to the rear bulkhead seemed a but like overkill, when the damaged seemed to my casual and untrained eye to be highly localized.

So a $3,000 repair to the replace a large section of the most corrosion prone structure seems like a great relief. Budget it like batteries or tire, and deal with it when and if the time comes.

I hope this update is seen by people really not thinking they needed to be involved in this, for regardless of prior discussions, perhaps this post will help the one or two that are new to the subject.

This is about another way to see evidence of a potential bulkhead problem.

Since I put this topic on the Forum, there are four coaches with issues at MOT getting work.  There are various stages of repairs needed and mine was on the minor side but caught early.  MOT looked at it last year, nothing seen.  The water source was utility bay, not  road spray.  It was not detected by a casual look at the bulkhead seam.   

This photo shows another way to detect that there may be a bulkhead issue and at this point the solution may be more labor intensive than those caught earlier.    In the top center of the picture there is a white and a black screw and between them a seam.  It is fairly tight seam, closed at the top.  As you follow that seam down to the bottom of the picture, where there is a screw missing, you will  see that the seam is wider than at the top.  This may be evidence of something going on with the bulkhead, causing some separation in the structure and would lead you to look there.  In that case I imagine you would need to remove underneath fiberglass cover to inspect the structure. 

There is also a newer coach to MOT in that needs some work but in this case the prior owner had a serious water leak in a bay that over time has caused a problem.  It will be repaired by the new, wonderful lady, owner.

I hope the photo helps the few less informed, perhaps like me, who did not know to monitor that area on their coach. While my repair costs may be seen as relatively minor, I would like to catch it earlier than later when costs could be much higher.

Thanks for the interest of all who have posted or sent me private messages, questions.  I learn from each of you. 

Thank you Mike for that update.

As I read about leaks in the wet bay: I have never seen any leaks in my wet bay (since I've owned the coach).  Is it possible that there are leaks that we do not see?  Where might said leaks be occurring?  Just trying to understand.

Thanks,
Chris

The Follow Up and Final Report....maybe....to my bulkhead repair

a.  I returned to talk to the owner of the welding shop and get a complete description of how it was done and some of the questions that arose on Forum.
b.  I am convinced that the fellow knows what he is doing and did the right thing, but I am not experienced in welding as some of you guys so take with a grain of pepper.  And I cannot explain all that he did or why but he showed me and made good sense to me.
c. He does not paint the bottom metal surface per FOT specs.  The reason FOT does not is for gluing the fiberglass in place.  But also is that paint would not help to prevent or control the kind of damage this area can sustain.  I can believe it for the example he showed me of the removed section from another coach was lots and lots of rust and holes in the metal.
d. He explained gusset welds are used in some places, in others it is welded on three sides, but not the top.  He believes it is as strong or better than original and the metal itself is stronger (heavier gauge)
e.  He showed me the damage to Scott and Carol coach bulkhead and explained it was some worse than mine, and where and how so.  With regard to another repairs they have done, one owner could hear a popping sound.  It was from the trailing arm attachment failing due to metal deterioration. That is what led him to the bulkhead.
f.  As to cost, he cannot advise you as each job is too different.  The job I explained in a prior post about bay water he thinks may not involve much if any of the bulkhead as it may be limited to the area right under the bay, the structure of the little door where hoses and cords exit the bay to the park pedestal.
g. If you want to talk to them, it is Thomas Welding, talk to the owner, Brandon.  Also he is just a nice, patient, young man and owner.

The folks at MOT also talked to me about the weld, the process and thought it good or would not have sent me there.

We shall see what Scott thinks when he gets an opportunity to review his repair

Risch did tell me when we picked up the coach that they have not yet learned how to do one thing though in the repair.....well that worried me, what?  "Oh, when they built your coach, they could attach the underneath fiberglass in a way that we cannot.  So it will not be quite as smooth."  In the photo you will see some goop (technical term of mine) that covers the screw heads.

I hope this helps you watch for this potential problem, stop it before it becomes serious, keep water out.  And notice if you begin to develop a problem and that if caught early, it is not a huge deal (well it is after all, coach bucks for most things)

Chris, my leaks were probably not leaks as we think of them but water draining out of the hose as we start driving.  The vibration would shake the hose, let the water that remained in the hose drain out into the bay area.

I suspect that happened with the prior owner.  When we got the coach I had detected the water and after I did, I just put the end of the hose in a plastic container to catch the water, which was substantial.  I then went to shaking it to promote drainage an break any siphon and draining it before storing it in the bay.  I then added a cap on the end

James Johnston at MOT says there should be a check valve or back flow preventer that controls this but often is not there or no longer operative.  He said you can add one to the end of the hose.  Back thru this thread you will read what others have done to control this; a couple have installed a ball valve arrangement to stop the flow thru the hose when they want to be sure it does not leak back.

I have a check valve on the end and my normal operation after filling tank 3/4 full is shake the hose, put the plastic end cap on and place the hose with the end vertical in the clamp I installed on the bay wall next to reel. No water comes out.
I second your comment of the sewer opening being the most probable  factor as a lot of pictures posted on this forum show me that many do not pay much attention to leaks and bad fitting doors etc etc. I have seen some in person that make me cringe.
Cleanliness is absolutly a major issue here and many do not care or realize.
JohnH
 meant to add that I seem to remember looking at Don's Filon cover and it not having any ripples etc in it and he did not have a shop and all the whiz tools, just pride and care.

Update -

Coach came back from the welder this afternoon.

Pics attached were taken at the welders before it was returned to MOT.  While at the welder I did confirm that the new square tubing has a sidewall thickness of .125" and the original appears to be in the range of .062.  The welder did not have a micrometer but it looked to my eye to be about that thickness.  (Spent 25 years in the steel business and used to be pretty good at determining the thickness of sheet steel.) 

It is generally thought by the "Pros" that the water that corroded the basement floor structure was done by water that came from the wet Bay and/or manifold bay. Possibly from the fresh water hose when it is rewound or from other leaks.  On our coach the end of the overflow for the fresh water comes out of the body on the wheel side of the rear wheels, not on the basement floor somewhere.  The corrosion that we saw was corrosion that was occurring possibly for many years.  John S has a screw on plug at the end of the fresh water hose that we will religiously use.

I did share the pics of our corrosion with Rance @ Xtreme.  After some conversation he felt that they were not equipped to detect and diagnose what he had seen.  This is not a company position but feel that they will formulate a policy regarding the inspecting of the bulkheads in the near future.

I also showed them to the folks at MOT and they are in the process of determining how they will move forward with the inspection of bulkheads and what that process might look like.  They have received a number of calls asking about inspections.

The bare steel tube was sprayed with an anti corrosion liquid, at MOT, that binds with the steel that hardens to form corrosion resistance.  I am not familiar with the product but will ask some more questions tomorrow.

Insulation is being replaced and hopefully we will be on our way to AZ soon.

So Scott, looks like they will be welding it to old frame on 3 side ( both vertical sides and bottom.) I would really appreciate confirmation as I may want to do this to others in future. Ask MOT to use the method Don did and that was to use clamps and jacks with sheets of plywood across and 2x4s to provide an equal surface once the glue is applied. I would suggest using the caulk I do and that is M1 and I can guarantee it will stick like s--t to both surfaces. it is a Polymer caulk and not your regular caulk.
JohnH

Hi John -

Thank you for your comments/thoughts.

The steel assembly has been replaced with new forming the basement floor and completing the chassis.  MOT is in process of replacing insulation between the square tubing then will move on to replacing the fiberglass pan.

With respect - I would prefer to allow MOT to assemble as they choose as I do not wish to accept liability for changing their processes. 

It might be best if you contact MOT with suggestions and get clarifications.

Scott, am I right that the tube will be welded to the original on the 3 sides as mentioned as you do not make any mention as to my previous question.
I was just talking to my Brother geoff (GV owner) about a way to have a welded top tube so it becomes a 100% weld on the joing surfaces.
To accomplish this, a flat bar the same wall thickness as tubing that can be wider than tube and maybe 6" long is first chamfered at the under end edge that goes against the original and a neat weld is laid to join this F Bar to old tube. The new tube has the top section (wall thickness only) removed and also 6" long so that when it is pressed up to flat bar it makes the original size of new tube. If there are 4 joining tubes from new to old then you do this for each one. This joint is now welded on the sides, bottom and now along the flat bar/ tube join which gives you a 100 % weld(or as close as possible too one) and will stop any possible flex (opening) of that joint.
This is what I would do  and a very simple solution
I understand your thoughts on future liability but my comment on the applying of the Filon would be a much better/seal of it than what they are doing as in Mikes pictures. I would not accept that caulk job etc as more caulk does not make a better seal. I would also spray urethane apint over the angle and bolt heads to stop any possiblity of water going past heads of bolts.
Just my thoughts to get a better job.
JohnH

Thanks again for you commentary and suggestions.

I will clarify their weld practice and relay here, but think they are being done like the ones that FT made during the initial construction, which are on the vertical joints and not on the bottom or top.
 
   




 

Scott,

I have been following your saga and have a couple of questions about your basement layout.
Does your H20 tank back up to the rear bulkhead on your coach?
Is the H20 tank vent line still a green & white corrugated plastic line?

Pamela & Mike

Pamela and Mike....Scott and we have 2001 but the photo I put of the separation along the bay seam was an earlier coach.  The other coach I spoke of with flooded bay was an 05 and I think fresh tank issues besides....I had also on an 05.

Thanks Scott, you have a good attitude about this problem.
Take care
 JohnH

John - All of the welds are on the vertical sides of the joints.  The seams where the square tubing  runs along side each other the welds are on the top and bottom.  There have been a lot of conversation between the welder and MOT re: weld/assembly configuration.  I believe our repair is their third and Michael's is the second.  At this time, I believe they have replicated the FT fabrication methods with the exception of increasing the wall thickness of the square structural tubing.  MOT is not taking this repair lightly and I think they are working hard to provide the best welded assembly that they can. 

Pamela & Mike -
quote "Does your H20 tank back up to the rear bulkhead on your coach?
Is the H20 tank vent line still a green & white corrugated plastic line?" quote

Our fresh water tank is in front of the gray and black tanks.  The gray and black tanks are close to the bulkhead.  I have not eyeballed the fresh water tank overflow tubing.  I understand it comes out of the coach in front of the rear wheels, outside of the coach structure.  Will try to put some eyes on it tomorrow and let you know. 

They should finish up with us tomorrow.  They are using a new fiberglass pan piece and are putting a number of screws through the edges.  So far the edges look flat and clean.

Scott,

With the fresh tank location you shouldn't have a big problem with condensation during weather change.  On coaches with the fresh tank next to the rear bulkhead you have more of a sweating problem. In this case if the inside bulkhead seam/calk has a split you can get water to the top of the rear bulkhead without even knowing it.

The reason for the vent line question is that green corrugated hose has a bad habit about leaking where it is connected to the tank.  The screw hose clamp don't always seal off the hollow area that is created in the area of the white corrugation.  I know of one owner that replaced water pump, manifold, and all related piping trying to find and fix a leak, the leak was fixed when we changed out the vent hose with one that has a smooth inside.

Pamela & Mike

I don't know if was OEM, but when I pulled my hose off the tank I noticed there was silicone in the connection.  I assumed it was to seal up the corrugation rut.

Why not remove 3"- 4" of the bottom section (wall thickness only) of the new tube, weld the top and two sides of the new and old tubes together from inside the opening, then replace (weld) the removed piece on the bottom for 100%?

T man, that idea is in line with what I suggested so you can get a bead along the top inside then weld it all back together. Both do the same thing if I am reading you right.
I took off my both fenders covering the rear tires today in readiness for the new air bags. I am going to clean up under there and paint with enamel black and also caulk a few areas that I want to control any road water thrown up by tires. All looks good at the joins and I took out the Rolocks in front of tires just in case. There was no noticable rust etc on them and using a fine flashlite beam I could get a glimpse of the tube and it looks ok. Rolocks replaced and torqued with out a hitch. I will cover them again when I do rest of work in wheel wells. Loosened up all nuts etc on bags then sprayed Liquid wrench on threads and tightened up so they will be easy to replace once here.
Tomorrow finish up the Aquahot service and pump replacement on friends CCoach. New buner jet and now no smoke on start up. The igniters were out of alignment and this was a new unit 3 yrs ago. Lousy fitting. Had a bad air lock in lines so finished up removing his whole dash to get at front unit. Took it out and the one under fridge then blew lines out and rads. No blockages, put it all back and front one now works good but other on that loop still not right. Guess we will break the lines at rad and hope any air comes out. Fun in the sun they say. Good learning lesson.
JohnH

My coach was one that Bernd worked on this past summer to replace the entire floor frame AND the front and rear bulkheads.  It's a 2004 model but I think it had the Perfect Storm combination of water intrusion from the wet bay, the pump bay and a bad bay door seal as well as bulkhead issues.  The standard (non-marine) plywood that FT used as a fastening base for the hose reels and the water pump / water lines turned to mush and held water.  The frame was rusted through at all four corners and there was major rust in most of the other areas. It appeared the original frame was not treated for rust prevention at the factory.

The coach had been inspected for bulkhead problems several times.  As mentioned in this thread, the real damage can be hard to see without removing some of the fiberglass cover.  In my case, I was at Xtreme having a damaged bad door worked on and only after removing some trim, dis the problem become visible.

I personally degreased, primed and painted the entire new frame with POR-15 after it was built.  The fiberglass top and bottom were glued on but the bottom has not stuck well in several areas. In one of the posts above, it was mentioned that painting the bottom of the frame was not done so as to improve the gluing of the fiberglass.  If I had known this would be a problem, I still would have painted the bottom but had aluminum or thin stainless used as a cover.

Yes, my insurance covered the cost under comprehensive.  They agreed it was water damage.  The cost was over $25 coach bucks which included new stainless bulkheads.

Maybe this would be the ticket for adhering the filon;

GE Iron Grip 100% Silicone Adhesive | Sticks Where Others Won't (http://irongripadhesive.com/)

That looks like some good stuff!

Our bulkhead experience is over as of 5:30PM tonight - thank G--.  The cost was about $4K +/-.  Detailed billing - can't complain.  I would rather that this experience did not happen and am glad it is done. 

I would encourage all with a coach of our vintage/construction to have it inspected by a qualified person.  I do not know of a better place for this inspection than MOT.  They are doing two more rebuilds next week and have a couple of inspections for next week as well.  This comment is not being made to scare anyone but it is important.  We would have never known about our problem if Keith R had not taken the extra minute to look closer and recommend a further inspection.  I believe they have formulated a two step inspection process and will open the bottom if it appears to be necessary.  In other words they will not open an inspection area unless they feel it is warranted  and will certainly share their concern with you before they do anything.

Everyone at MOT was great.  Hats off to Keith R.  He watched the process all of the way through to assure that things were being done the way they should be.

Keith did check the fresh water overflow drain to make sure that the fixture was not leaking and everything else is good. 

We will stay at Camp FT tonight and tomorrow.  We will provision for the trip to AZ and get some much needed down time and start to make our way on Sunday AM - I think.  Still need to do a couple of things to the coach to make her ready.

Thanks to George and Stephie for holding our hands and for the great conversation and companionship during this experience.  :D

Also thanks to the Fofum and Mike for starting this thread.

Has anyone actually used this stuff on our Foretravels?
 
The claims and price are very good!
 
Trent

I have qiuestions too...where can I buy it in the caulking gun size and what price?
Jim

2002 U3202 42'

Home Depot carries it in the 10.1 ounce standard caulking gun size for $7.97.  ^.^d

GE Silicone Iron Grip 10.1 oz. Clear Silicone Adhesive-HD90058 - The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Silicone-Iron-Grip-10-1-oz-Clear-Silicone-Adhesive-HD90058/206692092?keyword=ge+iron+grip)

The 7.25 ounce can is $14.32 at Amazon.  >:D

Trent

Everyone, wanted to ask a question...please just take it with a grain of "he's a novice" and I will ask Scott tomorrow when I see him, but I would like to see what others think as well. This past October had the coach out for the first trip with the wife. Long story short, I hook up the water, turn it on, go in the coach open the valve for the freshwater tank (maybe I should have done that FIRST) anyway come back outside and water is leaking all around the fresh water inlet...I freak out...go inside tilt the coach....try to drain out as much as I can.  So....am I in trouble?  Also, would it be a good idea... to caulk/silicone around the floor of the wet bay to keep any water on "this side" of the bay fixtures?
Second Question: Since I do not use the black water hose compartment would it be prudent to seal it off?
I'll say it again...this forum is awesome!
Take Care
dave

I commented on page 2 that I recently used Iron Grip to install basement skin. First impression is very favorable. Time will tell about longevity.

Scott,
I have followed this whole thread with considerable interest.  Very sorry you got caught up in this.

You are a savvy guy.  My question is, in terms of identifying the problem, what does MOT do that the FoFum "Gold Standard" did not uncover or would not have uncovered?  Does the MOT "two step inspection process" involve more than a close visual inspection of the coach sub-bay structure and a torquing of the bulkhead fasteners?
 
I have inspected (PDI'd) numerous coaches for others.  I always exercise tough bulkhead scrutiny and scrutiny everywhere possible regarding bay pan attachments/penetrations.
I have also done my own bulkhead corrective action repairs and helped with other's.
The "Gold Standard" for FT Bulkhead inspections and repairs has been on this Forum for more than eight years now, and I have looked closely throughout this thread for anything that indicates a revision needs to be made to the standard.  So far, I haven't found anything.

Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8645.0)

A close inspection of your bulkheads, seems to have indicated that swelling (Rust Jacking, however minor) was evident and warranted further exploration. 

Just to be sure that we are on the same page, when one does a PDI of a FT bay skin and the front and rear bulkheads, any waviness, swelling, separation of materials, missing bolt heads, Rolok (or other) bolt heads showing any sort of gap, excess rust, missing caulking, rust stains showing seepage, leaking bay door gaskets, etc. etc., anything out of the ordinary, it's automatic to torque every bulkhead bolt, front and rear, CCW and CW, to 250 in/lbs.  I should also add to that list, if the freshwater overflow on the rear bulkhead has not been moved and/or (if they exist) the battery well/propane tank vents through the forward bulkhead outer skin have not been sealed— see below).  The general condition of the bays structure, the bulkheads and the number of broken and missing Rolok bolt heads then determines a recommended course of action;  i.e. -  nothing further necessary, one by one Rolok replacements/and/or sisters or (as I did and documented in 2009), open a path all of the way across the coach from side to side, the full length of the bulkhead, to fully access and correct the condition.

What does MOT do differently and if you followed the PDI "Gold Standard" how come it didn't identify the condition?

You also indicated that you have not moved the fresh water tank overflow tubing to an exit point below the bay outer skin.  From my experience, FT coaches that are driven with full or nearly full (anything over 3/4 full) FW tanks (which is most owners and FT's), will keep the rear bulkhead wet for a whole day at a time, as the freshwater sloshes and finds the overflow tank penetration, while going down the road. 

I don't care how meticulous you are in trying to seal up that exterior bulkhead joint and the Rolok (or other) bolt heads, normal  joint flexing and the aging process guarantees that some of that water will find itself into the bulkhead joint.  If continually supplied, it travels along the bolt shanks and through the Rolok threads and into the interior tubing.  Chronically overflowing the freshwater tank, when filling it, does the same damage, if you have not been proactive and moved the overflow to "below basement outside skin" level.  Storing the coach in damp, humid  conditions, over earth, gravel or crushed rock will all but guarantee sweating and water wicking into the joint as well. 

It's just common sense that all leaks inside the bays, whether from gaskets, hoses, plumbing, tanks,  fittings, pumps, whatever — produce free water on the bay floor.  Then the water moves around, looking for any possible way to leak or wick into the trapped space between the skins covering the bay floor framing.  A coach is seldom perfectly level, so pooling of the water will likely show on one side of the coach or the other, and when you see it, the time to find the leak source is right then, not later.

You had puzzled about the outer ends of your frame tubing being completely eaten away.  Because a coach is seldom sitting perfectly level, small amounts of water that intrude slowly over time, Scott, pool at one end or the other of that transverse frame member.  Then the trapped water sits there corroding (along with whatever "North of the Mason Dixon Line Road Chlorides" the water has managed to pick up) and comes up with a corrosive oxidation-reduction stew that eats the ends of your long transverse bulkhead frame member away.

Knowing FT's "tenderness" associated with any water intrusion inside the lower bay frame structure, I am continually amazed that owners are surprised when they discover basement problems.  The water intrusion into that belly frame structure (the intrusion that really matters, anyway) does not happen overnight and the "FT tenderness" need not create either fear or distrust of FT. 

An Owner/Buyer just needs to be diligent and exercise common sense associated with a known and well documented issue.  If an owner does not have the wherewithal to visually inspect, monitor, find and fix these things, I understand why that owner definitely needs to go to MOT, Extreme, Etc. 

But I think that the eight year old "Gold Standard" is still fully intact, unless Scott and Mike can show us something more that MOT does that we don't know about yet

At any rate, this is a good thread to remind us all to be diligent and careful.

HTH,
Neal

3M VHB tape holds the glass facades of many skyscrapers in place.  I've used it for quite a few applications on the Foretravel and find, properly applied, it is permanent.  Reattaching the filon to a (hopefully, why wouldn't you) painted steel structure  with VHB would be a piece of cake though subsequent removal would be difficult.  This would give you a reliable attachment and bypass the need to clamp.

Hi Neal,

Off topic, but my coach is 5957 and I wonder if your coach has a full lifting tag. Mine lifts only enough to drag gravel -yet I know a few late produced '02 coaches have a full lifting tag. Just wondering if you are more fortunte than I am.
Jim

2002 U320 42'

Hi Jim,
No.  No lifting tag here and I didn't want one.  I was happy to find a non-lifting tag and I'm still happy.
Lifting tags have more pieces-parts, more things to go wrong, more maintenance, are abusive to tires (when they touch down, those big donuts are not turning -- and it's a big mass to get up to speed -- so don't forget to drop the tag before getting underway) and lifting tags add a lot more structure weight.  Of course they turn a little shorter, but not worth the negatives for that one positive (for me).
Neal

Hey Neal -

Sorry about the delay in responding to your post.

I will try to address some of the issues/concerns that you shared.

The corrosion that we experienced occurred over many years and could not be caused by a single incident - as Keith R stated, or words to the effect.

The "Gold Standard" as I read and understood them will not always catch the corrosion that Mike and I experienced.  All of the Rolok bolt heads were in place and the 1/4" angle iron with the bolt heads in them was not wavy or overly corroded.  (Rance at Xtreme did a "courtesy" inspection and commented that I should place some corrosion resistant paint on the angle iron but it was nothing that needed to be done immediately. - I make this comment only to underline how even an experienced eye does not always detect our problem.  Furthermore, MOT had recently also inspected this coach and did not raise the red flag.) 

.....Quote "Just to be sure that we are on the same page, when one does a PDI of a FT bay skin and the front and rear bulkheads, any waviness, swelling, separation of materials, missing bolt heads, Rolok bolt heads showing any sort of gap, excess rust, missing caulking, rust stains showing seepage, leaking bay door gaskets, etc. etc., anything out of the ordinary, it's automatic to torque every bulkhead bolt, front and rear, CCW and CW, to 250 in/lbs.  I should also add to that list, if the freshwater overflow on the rear bulkhead has not been moved and/or (if they exist) the battery well/propane tank vents through the forward bulkhead outer skin have not been sealed-- see below).  The general condition of the bays structure, the bulkheads and the number of broken and missing Rolok bolt heads then determines a recommended course of action;  i.e. -n  nothing further necessary, one by one Rolok replacements/and/or sisters or (as I did and documented in 2009), open a path all of the way across the coach from side to side, the full length of the bulkhead, to fully access and correct the condition."  End quote...

This paragraph is inclusive and full of important stuff that can, does and should lead to a more intensive inspection and is important.  Only one symptom in that paragraph that was a tell tale in our situation was the minor gap between the pan material and the floor support structure and checking the bolt heads would not have necessarily shown the corrosion we experienced. 

I might be wrong but MOT does not like to check the torque of the Rolok bolt heads as they believe that checking the torque to 250in /lbs could lead to bolt failure.  If they appear to be seated without separation or corrosion visible they will not torque.  Again I am probably wrong with that statement but that is what I understood.

There was an observable gap in the fiberglass pan. and that gap, about .125+/- appeared in the middle of the fiberglass pan next to the angle iron with the bolt heads.  No rust seepage was observable and there was no swelling.  Caulking/sealant appeared to be intact. 

In addressing the overflow tube positioning, Keith R explained that that overflow would not have caused our problem as it was due to interior water causing the corrosion.  We will not travel with more than 2/3 tank of fresh water and will not fill tank to a full point.  I will revisit the placement of the overflow tube and will probably extend the end below the pan in the next week or two.  Keith R did inspect the overflow attached to the tank and did not detect any leakage around that vent tube opening.

As you aptly stated, the water will pool while underway and while parked.  Most of our coaches do not level exactly "level" and typically they "cant" a bit rear and to the left.  As you could see by my pics that both corners of the tube structure were severely corroded.  The driver's side being the worst.  This might have also happened as the structure might have been bowed up during fabrication or attachment to the 1/2" angle iron. 

The wet bay floor showed no signs of rust stains and all of the caulking/sealants appeared to be intact.  There appeared no swelling or waviness in any of those areas.

Not to be redundant.....The only indicator was that the pan next to the angle iron did show a slight wave - about .125" +/-.

I "invented" the term "2 step inspection method" as it was the only way that I could express the process that they are still formulating to describe how they might inspect for this problem.  I did not and do not wish to speak for them or the process that they are using to try to detect this problem.

To clarify -
    Step 1 - Visually inspect all aspects of the angle iron, bolt heads and associated assemblies surrounding areas looking for visual signs of corrosion or general weakness that might appear. - Including fiberglass bottom pan edge appearance over and around the bottom of the coach.  MOT probably includes other things that I did not catch in our conversations.

    Step 2 - Cut a portion, about 18" to 24" covering the last segment of the flooring assembly in front of the 1/2" angle iron.  Once this pan is removed it will lay bare the assembly for inspection.

In conclusion, I am not the one to suggest or recommend that the "Gold Standard" should be changed/added to or expanded upon to further detail this specific issue.  In my limited reading of this Fofum and my newbie status - owner only 4 years - I do not recall seeing or reading about this extensive corrosion.  It is possible that the Gold Standard addresses this situation but I would not be the one to make that determination.  As I have owned 2 FTs now and have experienced the rebuild in only one, the only way to be 100% sure is to have the pan opened and inspected.  I did look at our 2002 after seeing our problem and the pan looked solid as did all of the Rolok bolt heads. 

I agree that this problem should not sway a potential buyer away from FTs but it is something that must be considered and dealt with when appropriate.  Others that I have talked with feel the only way to be sure there is not corrosion is to take their coach to MOT for the inspection consisting of opening the structure by removing a section of the pan. I presume that others could also perform this inspection but should be prepared to perform surgery when required.

I have attempted to address the issues as I understand them.  If I missed something, please redirect.

As for me being Savvy - I think not,  but thanks for feeding my ego anyway.  I do not wish to become the quoted expert in this issue but am only trying to share what I understand.  They don't call me "50% right Scott for nothing".  :D

Well, I am sorry too that Scott or anyone got caught up in this thread with more interest than just reading it.  Never expected so much interest, for I think this is fairly rare and perhaps easily prevented. My original purpose was to note one repair option, the preventative care imperative, and proper inspection that damage caught early is less expensive.

To reiterate.  Our coach was the first in this thread, then three more followed with varying degrees of issues and different evidence.  We had no evidence such as wavy bulkhead, loose fiberglass along the bulkhead, missing bolts. I do not torque test the bolts, per Rance at Xtreme.

Our evidence was only caught because Keith Risch, hired to do a thorough full coach inspection, saw sealant missing between the fiberglass and the metal frame right behind the flap door where you let utility cords and hoses out of the bay.

He cut out a piece of the fiberglass under the coach to inspect more closely and found the ends of outside ends of bulkhead tube corroded and holes.  The rest of the tubing looked pretty good.  The welding shop showed me on another coach where the bolts were secure but corrosion had significantly damaged the tube frame at several places across the bulkhead.

MOT said that after seeing this with ours, they may institute some procedure to check the bulkheads in another way.  It was during this that Scott's was noticed, and then the 05 came in with a repair need but different cause.  The fourth coach to repair had a small separation along a vertical seam in the bay.  I posted a photo of that.

Now....this if caught fairly early is not a huge deal and our coach is 16 years old.  155,000 miles.  Preventable with the right knowledge perhaps. 

On costs which some ask, the welding shop emphasized that repairs are not identical so costs are variable, unlike a set of tires.  And our cost was much less than a set of tires. 

Again, I was very thankful to have Scott to visit with after ours was done and he was to began his, for he learned and better understood the repair process as he visited with the shop and technicians.  The shop, in my subsequent visit after the repair, showed me more of what was involved and how it was done and examples of the various damages that can infect a coach. 

As I said before, all the people involved worked hard to give me a good result.  It began with Mr. Risch who identified the problem and continued as he oversaw all aspects of the repair.

I appreciate too the gentleman that explained the repairs that he required.  He has helped us all understand, as has Neal,, possible causes, consequences, preventative maintenance an perhaps a few improvements you can make as you go about repairs.

Scott,
I know that MOT, FOT and Extreme have many different reasons for not wanting to "torque check" the bulkhead fasteners.  When pressed, most of the answers that I have been given involve issues other than determining whether a given bulkhead is sound or not on any given day. The answers always have to do with liabilities, who will pay for the larger repair if any fasteners fail, where and when corrective actions will occur (if warranted), etc. I've even had one of them, as owners, tell me "You can torque the fittings after you own it, but not before."  What does that tell you?

The bottom line for me is that MOT, FOT will do the torque check if the coach owner accepts responsibility or if it becomes a "go-no-go" impasse to selling a coach that they own.  They never argue whether the "torque check" is a valid measure of structural integrity or not.


So, after Brett Wolfe suggested it as the definitive standard, eight or more years ago (and I had initial misgivings as well), I tried it and I have done it on many coaches, mine and others, ever since.  Of course, I've never done it until the coach owner agreed, but it is sort of dramatic how easy it is to prove whether or not there is integrity behind what may appear to be a very subtle surface indication or abnormality.

It's rather like taking a scientific measure, like a blood pressure cuff reading , when there is a very subtle reddening of the face (that raises suspicion) and then rather easily discovering whether or not a life threatening blood pressure condition exists.  Why perform invasive surgery before taking a blood pressure cuff reading?  Besides, the blood pressure cuff reading can be taken at the nearest CVS/Walgreen or maybe you even have your own.  Anyway, much easier answer, very definitive and much easier to accomplish, especially if the invasive surgery facility is a half a nation away.  Then the only question is whether the potentially long-standing condition owner wants to know the answer or not.

• The 0.125" panel swelling gap that you mentioned,

• the unaddressed freshwater tank overflow fitting in the rear bulkhead,

• your "bulkhead 3" picture in reply #28 of this thread (which shows the less than straight and true, 1/4"thick, 3" by 3", angle iron bulkhead beam),

• the northern states winter driving history of this coach,

These are collectively as well as each and every one a red flag that should cause a definitive torque measurement of the bulkhead fittings in an owner/buyer transaction.  I would be willing to guarantee you that many of the Roloks would have failed the "torque check" 250 in-lbs, CCW, CW.  And Roloks that backed out would have clearly shown tubing internal oxidation-reduction.  Then surgery would be clearly warranted.


Again, very sorry that you got caught by surprise by this, but as I said before, good lesson for everyone to be diligent and careful, both as owners and buyers.

HTH,
Neal

Neal, had not thought of liability matter.  Good idea.  Only thing I can remember about my conversation though with Rance was him telling me not to do it and say on Forum then to warn against such, he had seen too many problems caused by this.

But the way you explain it, if you stay well below the torque limit, why would it not be a good test to see if it were loose and only held in place by rust?

Hmmmm

Exactly Mike,
By far, most of the failures that I have found, were already completely severed by corrosion weakening and then the normal bulkhead stresses applied during coach use. There were only corrosion products holding the Rolok heads in place, even though many "looked" tight and flush. 

All but one or two failures, if the fastener was compromised, failed well short of full torque.  A very few have backed out at very near full torque, but that is OK too, because the condition of the fastener, especially at the junction of the 1/4" thick angle iron, the aluminum sheet insert material and the frame tubing, as well as the end of the fastener inside the tubing, tells you a lot and if you can take a borescope peek, that tells you even more.
Neal

Neil -

Can not argue with your comments.  As stated before I am rather new to the Fofum and FT ownership.  Needless to say I was not around 8 years ago and was glad that our problem was identified and corrected even though I am a bit lighter in the check book today.  :D

While I have not talked with Keith about this, I do know this is Xtreme's position.  And, I do NOT agree with it.

Of the several thousands Roloks I have checked (yes, with a torque wrench), I have broken ZERO. Have I discovered broken Roloks-- yes many, many of them. 

What is the difference? The broken end of the Rolok is badly rusted.  Repeat ALREADY rusted.  It had previously broken and long enough ago to badly rust the break.  It was holding absolutely nothing. They break where the threads meet the "first" wall of the box beam. The Rolok will either torque or pull out with 4-5 threads and a rusted break end.

There is a reasonable explanation ( I guess) for the "don't torque" mentality:  If I check the bolts and find them broken (always hand them to the guy for whom I am doing the inspection) and the coach goes to Xtreme a couple of months later, Xtreme does not really know if the bolts were already broken (they were) OR if the torquing broke them.

I feel I would be doing an incomplete job of a mechanical inspection to just visually check a bulkhead and ignore the structural condition of the bolts.  Ya, it would save me a half hour per coach, but still wrong.

Is torquing the Roloks the "end all, be all"-- heck no.  But, along with visual inspection for rust jacking, it is an important part of the process.

I second that, in spades. I've used torque wrenches all my life, both inch & foot. Had a very expensive set of Snap-Ons and trusted them. That being said, if you let a child use an adult "instrument", a chance is being taken, with wrong calibration (or cheap tools) that breakage can happen, which is prolly why some outlets don't do it.

I hesitate to add to this thread, but I do feel that I paid my dues in regards to the bulkhead issue ::)

My opinion, and you all know that is worth what it costs... the easiest way to be sure of your bulkhead condition is to remove a Rolok and look at it. Torquing the the Rolok will likely tell you if the Rolok is compromised in the first 3/8" or so by water or road chemicals, I don't believe it will tell you whether or not the the Rolok is rust welded to the back side of the tubing. My reasoning is that if the Rolok has not been weakened where it passes through the 1/4" angle iron from external sources of corrosion, the the shaft of the bolt will probably be strong enough to stand up to the 250 inch pounds of torque without breaking, as the failing torque of the 5/16-18 Rolok fastener is 450 - 600 inch pounds.

On the other hand, if you can't remove the Rolok without it breaking, then you know there is an issue that needs to be explored under the fiberglass skin. True, if you don't have separation and it withstands the torque test without breaking, the Rolok may well still be holding the bulkhead together while the basement framing is rusting away, but that doesn't assure you of a clean bill of health. I don't wish to dispute the common wisdom, but my experience with the bulkhead joint has been up close and personal and I have given it a lot of thought. Now removing a portion of the the bottom skin will tell you without a doubt about the condition of the basement framing, but I would say attempting to remove the Roloks one at a time and if they come out intact, cleaning the threads and reinstalling them before removing the next is a potentially less invasive way to determine if the joint is sound. Of course, I would NOT advise anybody to do the removal of Roloks that look good on a bulkhead with no outward signs of problems such as rust jacking or separation unless you are in a position to do something about it should there be bad news.

I could go about this at some length, but the above is the gist of my takeaway from having spent the better part of two years grappling with this issue, before we even ever took our first camping trip in our new to us coach. At least now, I feel confident that I will never have to address this issue again on our coach.
Don

Don,

Absolutely agree, there are a number of ways to verify the integrity of the bulkhead. I seem to recall that someone used an inspection camera/snake camera to visually check out the box beam.  All good.

And, as you stated, if you are going to remove all the bolts (one at a time!) I would sure be someplace where repair could be done were you to discover a real issue.

I agree with Don and invite all to read about my experience by searching for "Bulkhead Horror".
A caution on removing Rook bolts and reinstalling. I did that and found that some would strip before reaching the recommended 250 inch pounds, while others, which did sustain 250 inch pounds, subsequently fell out on the road and disappeared. If Roloks are removed, I would coat them with a phosphoric acid (rust converter) paint (like "one step") before reinstalling. This will neutralize the rust present and keep the bolt secure (like lock tight).

The other important factor is that Rolok bolts will perform as designed only when the bolt is installed perpendicular to the angle iron it is going through. Some of the Rolok bolts I removed were bent at the head because their hole was not drilled perpendicular to the angle iron. I suspect that the installation of Rook bolts was given to the "low man on the totem pole" who had little understanding about how to properly install Rolok bolts.

Don't think I have any problems but here is a observation, if for any reason one would remove a rolok I think it would be a good idea
to have one of those rust proofing cans with the long extension and spray inside for good measure.Also what is the consensus
unless the one you remove is in pristine shape to replace it with a new one?

Does foretravel make available a schematic for the under floor steel structure or do you just do lots of measuring before you start cutting out the old structure?

MOT's Risch used some FOT drawings to go over with the welder.  You might check with Keith to be sure I heard Eric, MOT Service Manager correctly on that.  But I gathered were drawings of original design and specs.

Fear of God sort of thing ... Crawled around under my coach today and it looks good. I am not in a place or position to fix anything and don't have my in-lb torque wrench with me so no playing with the Roloks.  The bottom 6 inches or more of the vertical bulkhead on the outside and several inches in on the bottom of the fiberglass have been coated with spray on undercoating, twice.  It looks like it is time for some more.  All of the Roloks look tight, secure and square.  I picked at a couple and there is no apparent rust on the outside.  There are four (maybe six) round plastic plugs, maybe an inch and a quarter in diameter, across the bottom through the fiberglass maybe an inch or more in front of the rear vertical bulkhead.  They are all coated with undercoating and the one I picked at didn't want to come out easily so I left it alone.

The bottom fiberglass skin is dead flat, uniformly even with the bottom of the angle at the bottom of the vertical frame. That is encouraging.

And there are two open holes, maybe 3/16" diameter near each the end of the vertical bulkhead through the fiberglass into the end tube.  They are not sealed up or have plugs in them. They are not plugged up with stuff from the inside, a small phillips screw driver slips right in. No moisture, nothing damp. I cleaned off the end of the screwdriver and pushed it in and scrapped it around inside. The tube feels quite solid from the inside.  It came out with a bit of red dust on the end but no rust bits or anything coming out of the hole.  I have a bore scope but the hole is too small to get it in there.  Are these supposed to be there?  Were there plugs in the holes at one time?  Should they be sealed up? 

What about the 1-1/4" plugs?  Inspection ports perhaps?  Are they original?

I am open to comments and suggestions, Thanks.  The concern level went down a bit.

Highly likely the 1.25" plugs are to access the "back" of the beam.  They allow a broken Rolok to be removed (double nut it and bring it out the "back"-- toward front of coach if you are working on the rear bulkhead) and then a through bolt with backing washer installed. 

Look carefully at the bolt head opposite the plugs.  Likely it has a slightly different head than a Rolok.  If so, it is a bolt.  This is a very good repair assuming that the beam still has integrity. I describe just this kind of repair in my original Bulkhead document at the top of this section.

If you have replacement plugs, you can also remove one or more to allow you to inspect the "back" of the beam for signs of rust and/or signs of water penetration. Press on the foam insulation surrounding the hole to make sure it is dry.

Well, reply #100....hi there Harley!  Hope your family is petting you some today, you deserve it.

And Neal, love the term...corrosion products!  Cannot wait to use that on my mechanic friend Don. It is hard to get ahead of him.

Neal, you, John, Scott and Brett and others have a lot of knowledge of bulkheads.  We are seeing that on this one thread but I do not know if the problem is representative of a large audience or small?

If large though, then could someone develop a simple system to monitor the inards of these bulkhead areas, check the conditions? I think John H posted a way to access and check inside the tubing side to side? Don and Brett both mentioned some type of scope arrangement but I do not recall the specifics, nor how you could maneuver a camera around the box frame section to section?  Maybe there is already a good access method and point, but if not design and install one.

Just think, after a clean bill of health by the scope, check it again very x number of years, sort of on the schedule of a colonoscopy (terrible comparison I am sure!). 

I liked John's idea of cutting the fiberglass skin to inspect if nothing else would be comprehensive.

It seems there are infrequent repairs but perhaps some owners that do not know of the repair needs do not give us a good picture of the prevalence.  How many know to prevent the damage, how successful is that preventative maintenance if done by casual owner  and do we have a guideline for inspections?  This is all touched on within this thread but if not already consolidated somewhere, it could be valuable if produced and posted as a guide.

Perhaps someone has or would take on writing this........ "Bulkhead Maintenance, Inspection and Repair For Dummies"

You might begin with this by Brett, Bulkhead Repair.....A Comprehensive Look, posted eight years ago.
And the photos by Barry were really emphasize the need for care,  Making sure the fresh water tank is completely full (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10840.msg52262#msg52262)

Thanks Brett,  the 1-1/4" plugs look like they are in there on purpose, equally spaced and symmetric.  All of the bolt heads look the same as far as I can see.

What about the 2 small weep holes in the bottom of the cross tube at each end?  The idea of a drain point sounds like a good idea to me.  Should they be plugged or shielded against road spray?

Like Roger, I too have the 1-1/4" plugs in the Filon, on both the front and rear bulkheads  When we got our FT 16 months ago I noticed one of the plugs was missing, and if I remember correctly it was laying on the shelf in the wet bay.  I noticed at the time that the Rolocks and bolts (different heads) alternate so there is a bolt, Rolock, bolt, etc.

Looking inside the hole with a flashlight prior to installing the plug everything that was visible seemed fine.  The exterior has no undercoating anywhere, no visible rust and only a minor bit of deterioration in what appears to be a thin piece of aluminum flashing protruding from between the angle iron and the Filon.

The Filon belly pan is flat and even everywhere as well.

Sure a pity that for this reason alone my pit is far away from most owners as I would love to get to cut some of the Filon sheeting away if one suspects a problem with Bulkhead. Cutting old section out and making a new piece and install would be done for 30% cost of what was posted most probably.
As mike mentioned I drilled holes in side wall of tubing to spray inside the pipe with wax oil. I realize the rusting starts from outside.
JohnH

My coach has some of the 1 1/4 plugs and they are opposite 3/8" bolt heads meaning 9/16 wrench size. PO must have done a repair of broken bolts.

I replaced all of the Roloks in the front bulkhead joint with new ones I bought from Foretravel when I had the bottom skin completely removed, so I was able to see the back side. I also separated the front bulkhead joint and cleaned both sides of it and did the Por-15 treatment on it. Even though all but one of the front Roloks came out intact (that one the curbside outermost and the pointy end was inside the longitudinal frame tube and so I didn't remove it since there was no access to the back of it and there was room to drill a new hole next to it and install a new one), I considered drilling out the holes and using the same 3/8" ARP stainless bolts with weld nuts, but I was running out of time. I torqued all the new one to 250 inch pounds and so far, all are holding tight. I considered that the front bulkhead joint has no ties to the front suspension like the trailing arms in the rear to put the joint under tension, as when applying the retarder. It is true that the rear does pull at the front bulkhead joint through the intervening basement framing via control arms, but as long as the longitudinal stiffeners that are inside of the battery compartment and propane compartment are sound (at least in our vintage of coach), the trailing arms don't act directly on the front bulkhead joint like they do in the rear every time you apply the retarder. Because of the fear that the Roloks wouldn't hold as well once reinstalled, I replaced all of the vertical Roloks that hold the basement floor to the compartment walls with the same ARP stainless fasteners that I used in the rear bulkhead and used 1/4" thick rectangular washers (these were ready made UniStrut items from Home Depot) on the back side of the tubing and nuts to secure the basement between the bulkheads. The one exception to that are in the two thinner partitions that run between the fresh and waste tanks and between the LP/battery compartment and fuel tank. The 3/4" thick rectangular tubing used for that was not large enough to accommodate the nuts so I used the Roloks and slipped square nuts into the tubing from the outside edges. I took fairly detailed photos of the process which are in a few different threads on the forum if any body wants to search it out.
Replacing the vertical Roloks with through bolts and nuts added a lot of time and effort to the overall process, but knowing that replaced Roloks are not likely to hold as well as freshly drilled and installed new ones was a motivating factor. This next bit is my speculation: One reason for this is that the Roloks installed when the coach was instructed were probably not torqued, but rather predrilled with a 9/32" drill bit and shot in with an impact, which likely resulted in overdriving some of the fasteners to begin with and weakening the thin walled tubing. Fortunately, the design was such that not every fastener had to be doing its share to hold the coach together. However, corrosion and neglect cuts that margin of error overtime. Bottom line is, I still love our coach am not regretting all the countless hours I spent getting it to this point. I made it our own in the process and consider it unlikely that I will ever feel compelled to go bigger, newer, or fancier.
That said, DYMYH (with respect to the late, great, Dave M)
Don

FWIW -

I might be mis understanding the issue and I don't want to be argumentative,  about the Roloks, but if you look at the pics attached/below you will see that the large 1/4" wall tubing that the Roloks go into from the angle iron, appears to be rusted but not rusted through like the 1-1/4" X 16ga tubing that is the floor structure in both corners.  Is it possible that even if the Rolok does not break that there could be heavy corrosion just beyond the 1/4" wall tubing?  And if the Rolok does come out and is a bit rusty does that mean that the square 16 gauge tubing is corroded?  How much corrosion is too much?  I would venture that most have some rust.  I am not sure. 

As I said before,  I am no expert in these things as I am not a welder or structural engineer but I would rather spend $300/$400 to know for sure.  I was a Quality Engineer and I do not think that there are enough data points to determine any kind of a trend or specific causality.  I will again defer to the more experienced here that have been working with this problem for years.

Like all RV's, FT's watertight integrity is primarily dependent on caulking................and there's a lot of caulking.

My best assessment is that unless the coach has been in a salt-laden environment (ie: northern winter roads, a coastal location, or
submerged from flooding on the coast) then damaging water penetration comes from above the floor in the form of a leak.

So far everyone here with the type of structural damage that's being discussed has had their insurance pick up most, if not all of the cost.  One of the greatest assets of an insurance policy is having peace of mind.  If you don't have peace of mind then you should increase your coverage.

Our FT is now 14 years old, with no sign of extended bulkhead or compartment floor frame damage to the original untreated steel.
Being that old I'm sure there's some rust in there, and that it won't look brand-new if I tear it apart.  So I'm going to go the other route;  I'm going to do my very best to keep water from getting in anywhere, and if and when the bottom falls out I'm going to call my insurance company and file a claim, then get out to Coach Buck City and have it fixed.

Photo of a plug.....very hard to remove the plug, seemed tight and sealed.  But may have just been sealed with corrosion products.  Some material inside that I guess was part of the plug to hold it in place, but rust, lots of it, was holding it too.  Hard to dig the plug out.

I'm with T-man. My bulkheads look to be in good shape as of now also. Maybe because it's been a so cal coach? Will inspect again after this trip. Have to say, this has been a great topic.

Wonderful topic....but I'm seeing "Roloks" in my dreams. :)  :)

I bought a first-class ticket on a luxury liner and would prefer to spend my days up on the promenade deck rather than down in the boiler room.  LOL

T-man...I just fell off the couch laughing. DW said hospital..?
That was great...!!! love it

Hans

Sooner or later we are all destined for a trip under the poop (tank) deck.  Hope for the best.

T-man -

quote...."So far everyone here with the type of structural damage that's being discussed has had their insurance pick up most, if not all of the cost. " end quote

As much as I hate to contradict you, your statement is not completely accurate. 

As far as what you choose to do, it is your equipment and you can do what you wish.  However, if your bottom "falls out" be prepared to have the sides of the coach crack from the basement floor to the roof and/or have the back end all off.

Just sayin.

Scott,

I am aware of what can happen to the coach if the basement floor is not kept intact,  and I was just using a little poetic license with "the bottom falls out".

My mistake on the insurance.

Where to you get insurance to cover mechanical problems on  a 14 year old coach?

  T-Man - ^.^d

Water damage isn't mechanical.

Sign me up!  How much on a 16 year old coach with 150000 miles.

Scott,
It most certainly is possible! The Roloks can fail about 1/4" to 3/8" from the head of the fastener from either road generated moisture thrown up by the wheels, freshwater overflow on the curb side, or freshwater or wastewater leaks from inside the utility compartment. The steel tubing forward of the bulkhead joint can pretty much only fail from utility compartment water intrusion, usually from penetrations in the top skin (most common, I would think), the bottom skin (less likely, unless in the case of high water), or leaky compartment door seals. In any of these cases, the route for water to get in there has got to be the result of caulking failure, either around any of the many penetrations or the seam between the bulkhead insulating panel and the floor of the basement (which is impossible to inspect without pulling a holding tank or freshwater tank depending on the floor plan), or possibly uncaulked penetrations (such as screws into the floor to hold down reels etc.). It seems that one way or another, water will be present inside the utility compartment at some point. If the caulking is well done and in good shape, you will likely find some small amount of standing water, but it won't have penetrated into the basement. I have it on my project list to put a couple of small deck drains through the basement floor in strategic locations (say behind the utility panel in the wet bay and near the water pump and manibloc area. Tricky to do well because it must be flush with basement floor skin to most effectively drain the water. I will likely have to fabricate something because I have yet to find anything of appropriate size (I have looked at marine products like deck drains etc.).
Also, from your pictures, the transverse tube with the Roloks in it appears to be 1/8" thick walled tubing (11 gauge), not 1/4". and the outside dimensions of all the square tubbing is 1 1/2" sq. As far as I know, the thinner tubing is 18 gauge but of course, FOT could have changed that anytime. In my experience, 1/4" X 1.5" X 1.5" mild steel tubing isn't commonly available. The thickest I have been able to buy in that size is .120" what people usually refer to as 1/8". Now if you were getting 3" X 2" rectangular tubing, you can get that in 1/4" thick walled with no problem... well that is just my experience, but I am sure anything can be had for a price.
The biggest factor in the rusty thinner gauge steel of the framing is were there were pieces of plywood (4 places) which had become soaked, rotted, and held moisture against the steel. I was able to removed most of the rotten wood using my hands as a scoop! So on ours, about half of the Roloks that I removed from the rear were broken just behind the head where they go through the angle iron (as Bret W. said), and half were broken where they went through the back of the transverse tubing (in which case the pointy end of the Rolok was rust welded to the back of the tubing). The double nut technique from the back only worked on one of the broken Roloks, for the rest, I had to weld a nut on the end of the bolt to get the remnant out. In one case, it entered the intersection of one of the longitudinal tubes. That last bit of info told me that these things were not installed to a template or that would not of happened. Anyway, be very vigilant on leaks down there. Water alarms, frequent inspection, any method you have to be sure there is not a chronic leak that goes undiscovered. I may even cut a couple of holes through the floor to install inspection ports to view inside the insulated area so I can check with a moisture meter. I also put in a couple of 3/4" or so holes in the outer most framing that looks into the transverse tube. I can get a borescope in there to have a look as I want to. they are sealed with plugs. Anyway, as I said earlier, I could go on a great length to describe all of the counter measures I took to ensure the basement is bullet proof. I am finally getting to the point where I can say with confidence that I have now spent more time actually inside the coach then under it or inside the utility compartment :o
Don

Don - Upon review - you are correct in the thickness the that tube.  It does appear to be .120 or 1/8".

Mike & Jackie, the plugs you show in picture are from the ends of tube for wet bay and when I pulled mine out a couple yrs ago to inspect inside tube FT had stuffed brown paper in then caulked with the black stuff. I filed away any rust then sprayed with oil before recaulking the holes up with good industrial caulk. I have since put an aluminum 1 1/2 x 1/8th  U shaped piece around the opening with more caulk on it to really seal the sides up. I then rebuilt the whole wet bay and sealed it up good. I spent today cleaning up the framing around wheel wells and painting in Black enamel paint as I have those panels off waiting for the new air bags..
JohnH

I presume MOT, Foretravel and Extreme all do inspections/repairs on the bulkheads and the framing underneath the bays.  Is MOT the preferred shop to do the inspections/repairs?

Thank you.

Scott,
How does one present the issue to their insurance to get the repairs covered?  It is nice to know the presentation procedure.

John M.

I recommend MOT as most experienced plus they developed the inspection process that has proven vital.  They also developed the repair process.

As for insurance, mine was not covered as it was viewed as non-event related but rather was lack of maintenance or such over a long time.  I do not suggest yours will not be covered, insurance claims and  companies do vary.

You did not ask but I remind...if I were buying a coach, this would be a mandatory inspection.  A repair is usually not a deal killing expense but it could be, though quite unusually, of such a magnitude that it would be a potential deal breaker expense to negotiate with a seller.

Mike

Sorry to have not responded sooner.  have been dry camping and now signals.

John M. - I did not present this repair to the insurance company.

At the time we had our repair done, only MOT and FT performed the Inspection and repair.  Extreme performed a Courtesy inspection and would not perform the repair.  Things might be different now.

Thank you very much for the recommendations regarding the bulkhead inspection and repair.  I greatly appreciate your comments.

Morris

Update -

It appears that there have been more than 20 repairs completed by MOT since we had ours done.  Mike H was #1 and we were #2 I believe.

I am interested in how they secure the newly created "team" on the fiberglass to ensure no water intrusion which would be equally problematic as the original design issues.

Tim Fiedler