I am in the market for a early 90's FGV and have located a 1994 FGV 40' with a DD 6V92 and Allison 4 speed.
1994 Foretravel UNIHOME 3600 U300, GALLATIN TN - - RVtrader.com (http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/1994-Foretravel-UNIHOME-3600-U300-120364456)
This coach is near me. I have not physically looked at it as of this moment. I have contacted the owner and have been invited to see it. 2 big issues for me: I would rather have a 36', and the engine. I can probably handle the length. It is the engine that is worrisome.
I have no experience with driving large diesel trucks and coaches. After having identified this coach on RVTrader, I researched the DD 6V92. I know it is a 2 cycle and have read what that entails. We spend a lot of time traveling steep, paved, mountains roads.
I suspect that if we were to go look at it we would be sorely temped to buy it. The owner could probably talk me into accepting the challenges of owning the DD. I am not sure I can handle it.
The engine seems to need someone who has a high degree of operating skill and knowledge. Is this something a novice like myself should even consider buying?
Any thoughts will be appreciated.
The Detroit 2 cycle is the most produced heavy duty engine in the world with over 3.5 million made and 700,000 still in use. Mercedes purchased Detroit back in the 90's and still makes new 92 series. They could have purchased Cummins but chose Detroit for a reason. Some 6-71 Detroits in railroad generators have never been overhauled!
The 6V-92TA Detroit was the only engine I considered when shopping for a Foretravel. Also had to have a 36 footer for our western campgrounds. I have been driving the 2-cycles in fire trucks since the 1960's and owned a Greyhound conversion with it's 8V-71 engine.
It puts out more torque at a lower rpm than a four cycle, runs a 150 degree lower exhaust temp so no dropped valves, glass smooth at any rpm, gets good fuel mileage (7.9 mpg over the life of our coach), all are computer controlled so no "RACK" to run, built in aftercooler (like some CATs), etc, etc. At 350 hp, it's loafing compared to typical boat installations of 535 hp for the same engine.
Nothing wrong with a Cummins or CATs but my favorite is the 2-cycle. The only negative is the 4 speed Allison. It's super strong but the 6 speeds have much better ratios.
PM with concerns/questions.
Pierce
There is a discrepancy in the listing. If it is truly a model 3600, it is 36 foot long. The U300 was the top of the Foretravel line in 1994. Depending on the condition, it could be a great coach. The detroit diesels are not junk engines. They have a pretty large following on Foreforums.
If it is near you, go look at it. You will learn more about Foretravels than you know now.
Good luck,
Trent
I took a look at the photos and pretty sure it's a 40 footer. The special edition was only 40 feet. Would want to call to make sure on the specs. No engine photos but if it's a 1994 U300, is has a Detroit in it. It's not a 1995 as it does not have the front and rear updated access doors.
Pierce
Sorry, but that torque statement isn't accurate. The Detroit 6V92TA puts out 957 lb-ft@1200 RPM, while the Cummins M11 in our 1995 U320 puts out 1350 lb-ft@1200 RPM. That's more than 40% more torque for the four-stroke engine. The Cummins M11 also puts out its rated horsepower at 1800 RPM compared with 2100 RPM for the two-stroke Detroit.
All I know after being on this forum for a while, is, "Diesels are diesels are diesels." Like brands of beer, we all have our favorites.
I believe it is a 40', looks like it might have the rear-mount radiator, rather than a side-mount. Good looker, as usual, not much info on upgrades or service records. I'd go look at it and talk with the owner. A forum member to help inspect her is a good idea! ^.^d
The pictures (both exterior and the bathroom layout) show that it's a 40-ft model and the right-side picture shows it has the side radiator.
Just keep in mind the $17,000 that is being spent on another post for a rebuild, great engine yes but have to wait weeks for parts.
Now you're comparing apples with oranges. The 6V-92TA is 9 liters and the M11 you quote is 10.8 liters. The M11 was never installed in a GV. In comparing GVs, the engines available in the U280 and U300 were Cummins 8.3 liter in the U280 and the 9 liter 6v-92TA Detroit in the U300. The six speed transmission used behind the 8.3 Cummins could not be used behind the U300 as the Detroit put out too much torque and was not within the Allison specs. So, 8.3 Cummins "C" engine produces about 860 ft lbs of torques compared to 1020 @ 1200 rpm in the 6V-92TA as installed in our Foretravels. The 8.3 is also a slightly higher rpm engine but allowing for the .7 liter of displacement difference, the rpm is about the same per liter of displacement.
Detroit Torque Specs: http://www.dwclutch.com/D&W/D&W%20Clutch%20&%20Brake%202/DETROIT%20TORQUE.pdf
As you can see here, the MD3060 Allison six speed has a limit of 950 lb-ft in RVs. This eliminates it's use behind the 6V-92TA http://jexler.s3.amazonaws.com/safari/data/Allison%203060%20specs.pdf The MD4060 was not available until 1995 so none of the U300 Detroits got to have the six speed.
Here is the actual dyno photo of a 6V-92TA putting out about 520 hp and 1200 ft-lb of torque: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xy527eJ4Jw If you factor the displacement in at 1.2, the Detroit at 10.8 liters delivers about 1440 ft-lbs of torque. Yes, the 8.3 Cummins and the 9.0 liter Detroits could both put out more power/torque but this is not how they were installed in our Foretravels.
Update: looks like the 8.3 Cummins was updated to 300 hp in 1995 and went over the Allison 3030 torque limit so went to the 646 Allison four speed so a close contest.
You could have used the 15 liter ISX Cummins if you really wanted to beat up the Detroit. ;)
Pierce
True, but we also had a CAT owner that dumped big CBs into his 3116 a while ago. Luck of the draw. Pun intended: it mostly "boils down" to never overheating these hard working engines! ^.^d
I
am comparing "apples to apples." According to Foretravel History (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/foretravel_history.html) "The 1995 and 1996 U300's were very desirable and came with 370hp M11s uprated by Foretravel to 400hp. (these were all Unihomes) Cat 3176 350 could be substituted by special order (these are rare)."
The Cummins 8.3 was used in the U280 models and
not in the U300 models. Foretravel used the M11 as the direct successor to the 6V92TA in their top-of-the-line models and therefore the comparison between the two engines is valid. The Cummins 8.3 was used in the lower-cost Foretravel models.
According to the factory Foretravel brochure for the U300 for the 1995 year, there is only the CAT 3176 engine available: 1995 Foretravel U300 Specifications (http://beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/models/1995_foretravel_u300_specifications.html)
I do see the history section but nothing from Foretravel itself about M11 engines. Are there any U300 owners out there with M11 Cummins engines? Or is this possibly a one off, special order? For you U300 CAT owners, did you have a Cummins M11 option when you purchased your coach?
Pierce
That is one of the major issues with Detroit two-stroke engines today. They haven't been used in new-over-the-road applications in the US for over two decades and it's getting more and more difficult to find parts for them and technicians familiar with working on them. They were used on premium motor coaches and motorhomes for several decades but those days are now well behind us.
Hi There, new member here - my first post.. I think I can contribute a bit - to pay back on all my lurking :) Google'ing the VIN # - this FGV was for sale in KY for $51,000 in May 2010. Motorhome Hunter FREE Classifieds - Hunt, Gather and Buy new or used Class A... (http://rvhunter.com/page-21598.html)
Regarding the DD, I think they are the way to go. Marine [boat guys not military] guys know them well. Searching their forums may help you become better acquainted with the 2 stroke. -Nick
That's really of no significance. The Detroit 6v92 engine was used in Foretravel's top-of-the-line motorhomes (the U300) through 1994 and was replaced by Foretravel in 1995 in the U320, the successor to the U300, with the Cummins M11.
If you prefer to compare the Detroit 6V92TA to the CAT 3176B (10.2 liters), the 3176 ratings are 1350lb-ft @1200 and 350hp@1800.
Barringtons Diesel Club out of South Africa has a wealth of technical info including specs and manuals for our Cats, Cummins, snd Detroits. You can choose your engine from the engine list for specs, bolt torques, and shop manuals. If you become a member you can have access to all of the available manuals. Diesel engine specs, bolt torques, manuals (http://www.barringtondieselclub.co.za/)
http://www.facebook.com/BarringtonDieselClub/
I love all of this good hearted debate as I am learning more and more technical data from you guys!
Just for fun and the right amount of Coach Bucks I would like to swap my 6V92TA Silver for an 8V92TA Silver in my 36' U300 which is under 27000 lbs and has an Allison HT746 trans that could handle it or swap to a six speed. An extra radiator plumbed in the front like Andy2's should handle the cooling requirements and an update to DDECIV for the electronics.
Jerry
I am not sure it is all that good hearted. Beginning to sound like teenagers of my era arguing Ford versus Chevy.
Trent
Jerry,
Since you have the only other U300/36 with a common floor plan, did you weigh yours? I often wondered what the weight difference is between the 36' and 40' is.
Yes, 8V-92TA in Prevost and Wanderlodges use the HT746 transmission. That would be the least expensive way to go. For a little? more, you could go with the 4060 six speed.
I followed a U320/M11 in city and rural traffic and from a stop light, he was gone before I could clear the intersection. The six speed is just great out of the hole. Roll on at highway speeds was another story where our coach was a tiny bit quicker until we found some hills where the big gap between third and fourth was our downfall.
With a 8V-92TA installed, I think you would need at least one aluminum radiator up front and then a way to get more coolant up their without the friction loss. My 4107 had a HUGE rear/side radiator driven from a PTO off of the Detroit. It never got off the thermostat even in the hottest weather and the steepest grade.
Rainy Saturdays are great to spend time arguing the merits of our toy's powerplants. ^.^d
Pierce >:D >:D >:D
Trent, if you drive a Cummins, don't step off the curb in front of me! I'm almost never serious....almost
Yes, almost like Macs vs the evil PCs. :D :D :D
Pierce
Rzrbrn, I have almost that identical coach, Not the special Edition, I have had NO problems, with the engine or transmission and have only had to do "normal" maintenance. I bought my coach with 30,000 miles on it in 2007 and have put about 29,000 mile on it driving around out beautiful country. The only problem I had was right after I purchased the coach, the belt that drives the hydraulic pump for the radiator fan system broke while I was driving from Ohio to Gettysburg, PA , the previous owner had an extra one in the spare parts drawer, I replaced the bad one and we were on our way. Expect to replace tires, batteries, possible alternator, the isolator system mounted behind the batteries, various solenoids, T.V.'s if they have not been updated. I love my coach and plan to hand it down to my adult children when I can no longer drive.. I would offer a lowball figure $ 15,000 to 20,000 and see where that gets you. P/M if you have any questions. Gerry ^.^d
Because of the heavy coach and the gap between 3-4 on the 746 Allison Bird went to a five speed 700 series trans to eliminate the constant upshifting and downshifting in the hills. Aggravating
To clear the air of any lingering smoke, I have to say that I just love to argue. When my wife won't take it any longer and locks me outside, I argue with Koda. I would go with my business partner to a Gasthaus where we would drink and argue with the other patrons until it was light outside. Many times it got a little heated but it was always about a subject like cars or politics and never given or taken personally. Everyone was still friends the next day.
Agree with Gerry. Bought ours with 62,000 and now have reached the 100,000 mark with almost zero problems. Blew two hydraulic hoses, replaces a couple of airbags, solenoids, bulkhead fasteners and added solar to it but other than oil changes, the engine and tranny have been trouble free. I have never driven one that had a problem so didn't expect one here. You never know when snake eyes comes up but taking time to get acquainted with potential model problems and changing fluids goes a long way toward trouble free trips.
Pierce
I really appreciate all the comments. Gerry, glad to see someone has a similar coach. I live in TN. My 2 boys live in CA, so we spend a lot of time out west, one reason I wanted a 36'. We have been trying to stay in NP's and SP's. I hope with a 40 will will be able to continue to do so. I will see what the wife says and if we go see I will update here. My carport is exactly 11' high. Guess I will start looking for another builder to put a taller one up....
Lunker, thanks for checking the vin# and finding the previous sale in 2010.
Curious thing; the pics for the 2010 sale are the same pics the current owner used for this 2017 offer. I will go see the coach next week. It will be interesting to see if the coach looks the same as it did in 2010. Wonder why he did not post updated, and more pics.
I have a 91 U300 with a 6V92TA and 4 speed and it does just fine. Yes it stays in the right hand lane on big hills. Mine is only 300 HP ,But out on the highway on semi flat 70 mph all day long. I usually run at 1725 RPM which is about 65 and so far my fuel milage using actual miles and gallons put in is at 8.3. The ECM when I connected my prolink said lifetime mileage average 8.4 thats pretty darn close.
Yes OEM rebuild parts might be hard to locate ,But there are plenty of Top Quality aftermarket engine overhaul kits available, Interstate McBee,ect, and they have warranties as good as the OEM components. The reality for me is This engine should go a half million miles or so. I'll never wear it out as I just don't have that much time and the finances to do it. Be aware that the engine oil has to be straight 40 wt low ash content, I use Delo 100 40Wt and you will not find it out on the road at fuel stops or at the big oil change places like Speedco. You will have to order it and carry it with you. Not a big issue. And the best part it's just
Cooler Than Hell!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN0DtywsSW4
Be Very Careful!!!We haven't discussed it lately, but there are people who try to sell stuff they do not own.
Using seven-year-old photos could just be a sign of laziness. If so, what kind of care did he take of the coach while he owned it.
Curious and curiouser,
Trent
I weighed the coach at the Flying J/Pilot here in Gulfport In May 2015. They have a CAT scale and the Gross was 25740 lbs. Steer axle 7960 lbs. and Drive axle 17780 lbs. I believe my diesel tank was full and the black/gray tanks empty. I have a Joey bed but not much else underneath. I was surprised by that Gross weight.
I'm now averaging 8.7 mpg checked with the Pro-Link from the DDEC. The old historical average showed 7.6mpg.
Running Michelins at 100lbs all the way around, lighter weight, fresh oil for the engine and trans, new air filter, diesel treatment for the injectors, reconnecting the Hi/LO switch on the hydraulic fan, all helped mpg with the big Detroit. Of course we're only talking about flat land with a few rolling hills and my toad weighs only 2700 lbs.
Travel Light and Travel Often!
Jerry
You guys are killing me with the MPG. I have to check after the big trip but lots of headwinds/crosswinds kept it down. Was 7.9 lifetime. Bit afraid to see what it is now.
Jerry, we are both under 3K lbs. I don't put the brake system in the RAV4 on trips as it's under the legal limit in most states. How about you?
Stump, good video. Wonder where on 66 the photo was shot? Will send to my buddy that loves Chevys and hates Fords. Naturally, I take Ford's side.
Old photos may be misleading. I remember the dentist who advertised with his old college photo. Sure looked different in the office.
Pierce
WHEW!!!
No aux braking system but I use a Blue Ox Rangefinder II BX4322 class III tow bar (5000lbs) with a 2 " coupler and safety cables from Walmart It's light and folds up in front of the front bumper of the Sidekick when not in use. The Zuki is easy to push around and simple to hook and unhook when your ready to roll. It came with my Sidekick when I bought it.
Cindy has a 4x4 Jeep Liberty that weighs about 4000lbs. We may tow it in the future but that means more weight, new tow bar system, etc. I just can't part with my Suzuki right now as light as it is and 27mpg!
Jerry
Earlier it was mentioned that an M11 was never installed in a GV. This is incorrect - there was at least 1 built, possibly more. Jor bought one and owned it for 3 or so years. Jake brake. He sold it last year as I recall. He now has a 36 foot Unicoach, which fits him better.
Thanks Dave. I may lose my head over this one. ;D
Pierce
Dave,
I think it was the Winter of 2011, I was riding my bicycle in the Yuma Foothills (daily activity). Always on the lookout for Foretravels and their owners about since I was between coaches and in the market. One morning I came across a 95 GV with a M11. Talked with the owner I remember him mentioning on his previous coach he was being passed by Bounder type sob's he said that wasn't going to happen again!! He wasn't ready to sell at that time but did call 8 months later. I think this is the same coach that Jor purchased sometime later. It was at the Quartzsite gathering while it was looking for a new owner about 2013...
If that's the one I'm thinking of, I almost bought it, what a beauty! Forum members have it with their half a baseball team load of kids, I believe. I thought JOR bought a 34'. Suffice to say, any coach JOR gets his hands on, after he's done, and it comes up for sale, BUY IT! ^.^d
Mike,
Do you mean the Walkers? They were in Nac over
Christmas and they have not posted in quite awhile.
Carter-
I went to inspect the U 300 Special GV coach this morning. The owner purchased it in 2010. He put about 3K miles on it, then let it sit under a carport for the last several years, due to personal issues. He stated he has gone out now and then to start the unit.
Keep in mind that I am a neophyte and do not know anything about motor homes:
The coach is currently being serviced at A-1 Diesel Service shop at Lauren, TN, just outside of Gallatin, TN, because the owner of the coach said a possible buyer (not me) had asked that it be done. The owner of the shop (not the owner of the coach, who was not there) walked through it with us and we discussed the unit in detail. The shop did an oil and filter change, the first since 2010, also a seal in the front of the coach was being done (not certain what it is, but part of the running gear). Service man said the DD6V92 engine has no defects he can see, the transmission is solid, has disc brakes front and back, and has a retarder. He was impressed with the quality of the coach. He stated the coach needs new batteries, and possibly needs an additional 2 engine batteries, therefore 4 engine batteries. It is cold and storming here at the moment, so I did not open the outside storage compartments or inspect under or on top of the unit. Service man said it would need new tires and a new inverter. The engine and generator would not start; weak batteries and it is cold.
The inside has a slightly musty odor, but not terribly so. No ceiling stains that might indicate a leaking roof. Opened all cabinet doors, no leaks. No leaks under windows, except possibly the driver side had water stains in one spot about an inch wide from the middle of the bottom of the window directly down to the auto transmission selector switch area. The dash was somewhat dirty but not torn or cracked. Molding around the inner edges of at least 3 windows were partially out at some of the corner bends. I tried to push back in but would not lock into place. The woodwork was in fairly good shape, but has not been waxed in a very long time, if ever. Counter tops were not cracked or stained.
The light fixtures showed heavy corrosion where the fixtures meet the ceiling, as did the edges of a couple of ceiling metal vents: Most if not all the light fixtures would need replacing, as would the vents. The powered vent in the ceiling had never been cleaned. The refrigerator needs replacing. The shower was clean, as is the porcelain toilet, no cracks or blemishes. The sofa and chairs were not overly worn, but need to be replaced. The captain chairs were both well worn and somewhat dirty. The silver striping around the edges of the instrument panel was severely marred.
The biggest issue: The edges of the strips of wood floor in the kitchen and hall way were severely curling up, indicating water intrusion. My wife thinks water leaking from the refrigerator may have caused seepage underneath the wood strips, and possibly under the bedroom carpet.
As I mentioned above, it is raining and so I did not inspect the outside of the coach, other than noting the edges of the steel panels and vents were rusty.
I told my wife if this were 36' long I would make an offer. But with the issues noted above and it being 40' long I am not interested in purchasing this unit. Service man said the coach is worth $15K to $20K.
If anyone is interested the owners name is Steve Coley, his number is 615-516-6300. Unit is located near Gallatin, TN. Asking price is $32,000.
I took pics but can't get them here
Before you go looking at any more read and understand what to look for as far as bulkhead separation.
Bulkhead Separation (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10625.msg50296#msg50296)
There are some FTs that come up from time to time, where you can meet the owner, check the paperwork and get a feeling for it.
Unless you've got a big shop, expertise, oh yes, lotsa CBs, it's just a broken down coach that can cause a divorce, or worse.
It's just me, but the only FT I would buy would be one listed on this Forum by a member with some chops. We bought this one on R.V. Trader, which is a pretty good site. As the PO who used to run this coach said, "caveat emptor". ^.^d
And then there are the dumbasses like me who God looks out for. We did a walk thru with the salesman, fell in love with the quality (and the price) and condition, and bought our GV without even taking it out for a test ride! We knew the quality and reputation of the dealer--King's Campers--and never hesitated. They repaired anything and everything wrong with the coach, and even a year later took care of a couple issues we had. The dealer can make all the difference in the world when making a major purchase like a coach.
Sometimes--SOMETIMES-- things work in our favor.
This morning the Toshiba microwave we bought new in 1981 let out a loud snap and went dark. May it rest in peace. It served us well for almost 36 years and two teenagers. ^.^d
I believe so, I miss them and their adventures. I'd think if they had problems on the road, we'd had heard from them. ^.^d
They are around - last visited the Forum on Friday, Feb. 3rd. Probably just too busy to post - how could you NOT be busy with 5 (very active) boys. Plus they are on tour - will be in Myrtle Beach, SC next Sunday, according to their posted schedule. If we have any members near that community, I recommend they stop by and enjoy the music and fellowship. 8)
Trent & Siobhán (http://www.trentandsiobhan.com/tour-1/)
Nite hawk I will take the bigger dumba** award I did a walk through indoors with no power the. Saw it parked outside at the yard sale and took their word for it. Drove it after I handed over the cheque and then the stuff from the yard sale started to re enter the foretravel as I would need it.
A lot of us got that award : (Clean living, luck of the draw). We bought our second Airstream by just starting it up. Put a 2 x 12 plank from the 28' to the 31' to change stuff and left Seattle for the Northwest Territories and back! Problems zero. Of course, our time in the barrel did come, at about 80k miles, I then learned what Coach Bucks were about! ^.^d
Give me that award also. Hadn't found the Forum yet and saw a picture of a motorhome in S.C. put the tow bar and tools in back of the Jeep and left Los Angels to buy it. It was sitting in a trailer park hooked up to the pedestal. Aqua Hot didn't work so the price went down from what was discussed on the phone. Engine ran, never drove it, paid $45,000 cash and drove it home 2420 miles. Didn't know about ride height and tires were rubbing on the front so raised manually.
Foretravel U320 rvs for sale in Irmo, South Carolina (http://www.smartrvguide.com/foretravel-u320-rvs-for-sale-in-irmo-south_carolina)
I read the bulkhead thread some days ago and was looking forward to scooting under this U300 to see what was up. Since it was raining I did not get to do that, but do understand what to look for. Thank goodness for this website and folks like you.
I see Nitehawk has a 89 GV ORED with a DD engine. Now for me to find one like that would be the cat's meow.....
Nitehawk I believe has the 8.2 Detroit not the 6V92TA. RRadio has a 91 36' with a 6V92TA Detroit. and I think Pierce Stewart has a 94 36' with a 6V92TA also. The way I understand Grand Villas is They all are Grand Villas.bYou have Grand Villas and Grand Villa UniHomes. But They are Not all UniHomes. The UniHome will have the Monoque Chassis and the 8 bag air suspension. The Grand Villa's that are Not UniHomes can be on a oshkosh type bus chassis. Then there are different models you have the 240 ,280, 300. The 300 being the Top of the line for the time.
And then each model of the Unihomes had a different engine. Check the specs on Barry Beam's site to see which is which.
Good summary of the GV's... Though only the U280's and U300's have the 8 Air Spring suspension. The U225 and the U240 have the Torralistic. The U225 has the Cummins 5.9L and the U240 have had (I believe) a few different CAT engines depending on year.
Don
A 40 footer will have that air bag system, but not our 3600 GV Monoque Uni, has the torsilastic suspension, which I like. ^.^d The 225 came with a Cummins B5.9 230 hp/Allison MT 643. The 240 was the CAT 3116 250hp/Allison MD 3060. There was a $10,000 base price difference between the Cummins & the CAT. CAT was high-end. List: $199,500.00 !
I am wrong I should have worded that different as I was not for Sure Sure on those statistics,My Bad. I'll try better next time :))
FWIW,
Before I bought my FT, I drove a Vogue with a DD in it. I did not have an issue with its performance. In fact, I liked it. It was a 36 foot Vogue. I can't opine on repairs or longevity. The performance and sound of that engine were fine with me.
Best of travels!