Foretravel Owners' Forum

Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Tim on February 13, 2017, 08:43:30 am

Title: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Tim on February 13, 2017, 08:43:30 am
The air alarm sounded when departing French Creek State Park in Pennsylvania, with the following scenario:

- Temperature 34 degrees
- No engine pre-heat (I forgot to throw the preheater switch since it was above freezing. I usually preheat below 40 degrees)

Twice during the first 15 minutes of our 30 minute trip home the pressure went to 50 lb. Each time, I stopped the rig and watched. After 10 minutes of engine warming, pressure started building properly. YES! After 15 minutes of engine time, air cycling was back to normal.

I have read about air issues on this forum. However, I am a newbie to Diesel Pusher air systems, so my questions are:

What part should be replaced?
What are the two gauges for (newbie question)?
Why does the lower gauge sometimes read 20 lb lower than the upper gauge?
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Chuck Pearson on February 13, 2017, 08:56:13 am
Hold de bus!  Sounds like you've got a serious air leak at least.  The lower and upper gauges read front and rear air pressures for brakes.  You can open a rear drain valve easily, and not which gauge goes down to figure out which is front and rear.

The temp shouldn't matter unless your air system is waterlogged and frozen.  Need to check and see how long it takes to build up pressure to 120 or so....does popoff valve work.....condition of compressor. 

Your emergency brake should automatically engage at low pressures.  Did the knob pop out on its own? 

Gotta fix it, not safe to drive until done. 
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on February 13, 2017, 09:06:06 am
What part should be replaced?
What are the two gauges for (newbie question)?
Why does the lower gauge sometimes read 20 lb lower than the upper gauge?
1. In any case where air pressure is acting erratically, I recommend preemptive replacement of D-2 governor.  Inexpensive, can't hurt, might help.

What is a D-2 Governor? (was What spare parts to carry?) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16255.msg103326#msg103326)

BENDIX D-2 GOVERNOR MANUAL Pdf Download. (http://www.manualslib.com/manual/392610/Bendix-D-2-Governor.html#manual)

2. Answered in post above.

3. Your front and rear air gauges can read differently for several reasons - it is not always a "problem".  To aid in diagnosis, you need to specify the exact conditions when you observe the differential readings.

Air tank differences (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=28634.msg239399#msg239399)
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Barry & Cindy on February 13, 2017, 09:21:21 am
We had the same thing happen in cold weather.  Ice in air line, limped to small truck shop, who removed governor hose to wet tank, poured in "air brake anti freeze" and that and the warmer shop did the trick and we took off.  We have been carrying a quart of air brake anti freeze for over 10 years since it happened.  Sure air dryer is supposed to remove "all" moisture, but who knows.  Never happened again.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: wolfe10 on February 13, 2017, 09:32:56 am
Good points made.

The governor (under $25 and easy to replace) is responsible for turning on and off (actually loading and unloading) the engine driven air compressor. So, that is one suspect.

But, a massive air leak could also render the air compressor incapable of keeping up with the leak.  And if the air dryer has not been serviced recently (an often neglected item) a valve in the dryer would be one of the first suspects. Because a valve can stick and then free itself.  Were an air line cut, etc, it would not "self heal". If the dryer has not been serviced in awhile (or you don't know how long it has been) my recommendation is to buy a FACTORY (i.e. the factory that made the dryer, not a "made to replace of unknown origin) REMAN dryer.  That replaces, not just the filters, but also valves, heater, etc.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: John Morales on February 13, 2017, 09:35:14 am
Barry,
How do you us the air brake antifreeze?  Where is it added?

John M.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on February 13, 2017, 09:44:50 am
For Tim and anyone else who might not be too familiar with air brakes, Barry's website has a lot of articles on the subject.  I would suggest the first article to read is the pre-trip check.  Technical Help - Air Brakes (http://www.beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/air_brakes.html)  Also the manual for the coach has info about the brakes.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Barry & Cindy on February 14, 2017, 12:23:57 am
John, tech removed hose on governor going to wet tank, used a small neck funnel and poured the alcohol into the hose.  That was it.  Looked like he had done many the same way.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Tim on February 15, 2017, 12:03:19 pm
Thanks for the overwhelming response. Just bought two new D-2 governors, air dryer kit and air system anti-freeze and conditioner. OK wolfe10, they are aftermarket governors for $13 each on eBay with a seller that has decent feedback. I will report on their quality. I'm a sucker for cheap prices.

As soon as it gets warm enough to work, I'll be crawling under the rig, safely.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: craneman on February 15, 2017, 01:27:54 pm
Tim,
 I think Wolfe was referring to the dryer for a factory rebuilt unit. The governors are pretty basic.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: wolfe10 on February 15, 2017, 02:33:12 pm
Tim,
 I think Wolfe was referring to the dryer for a factory rebuilt unit. The governors are pretty basic.

Correct:  New governor if one is needed.  Factory Reman for air dryer.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Tim on February 19, 2017, 06:17:57 pm
Replaced the air governor, air dryer, coalescing filter and the relief valve (it came with the kit). All went well, except the relief valve broke off when it was torqued for removal. This brass device must have been over-torqued when it was installed and is rated only for 12 ft-lb of torque. Four hours later, after several unsuccessful removal attempts, I drilled and cut out the relief valve from the air dryer assembly without damaging the threads too badly. Used teflon tape and thread compound to ensure the partially damaged threads do not leak. See the photo.

There was hardly any water in any of the parts replaced, so there is no conclusive cause of the air pressure loading cycle failure at 32 degrees F. There is a heater element surrounding lower cylindrical middle part of the air dryer assembly. It wouldn't have hurt to have let the rig warm up for 15 minutes to give the heater time to melt any possible ice.

Question: Where should air system anti-freeze/conditioner be added? I bought some, but did not want to add it to the wrong place.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: John Haygarth on February 19, 2017, 06:55:42 pm
Tim, Looks like you have done that before as your drill looks like it was centered great. Nice job. I have done that removal dozens of times when a machinist.
JohnH
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Barry & Cindy on February 19, 2017, 09:25:50 pm
We have not changed our air dryer pressure relief valve, and have little collection of new ones somewhere.  So we are happy that we did not chance breaking ours, but have changed out our air dryer with a rebuilt unit so our valve is not ancient.
Air brake anti-freeze is used to eliminate already built-up ice in air lines, not air dryer.  It is alcohol and is poured into the disconnected rubber hose between the governor & wet tank.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Tim on February 21, 2017, 06:52:47 am
The CRC brand Air System Anti-Freeze has methanol. Could that harm rubber components?
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: amos.harrison on February 21, 2017, 08:22:28 am
Methanol is methyl alcohol.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: wolfe10 on February 21, 2017, 10:21:56 am
You should not need to add any air system anti-freeze unless you have allowed your air dryer to fail.

Said another way, with the air dryer functioning, there will be no moisture in the wet tank.  Easy to check (when above freezing)-- just open the wet tank valve.  It is basically your "report card" on air dryer condition.  All you should get is clean, dry air. Water, oil or worse white powder all indicate a neglected, failed air dryer.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: Jerry Steele on February 23, 2017, 09:41:13 am
     A trucker told that he has had to change several governors in cold weather.  Mine gave me trouble two times while on top of mountains in cold air.. I assume a weak governor does not like cold air.
Title: Re: Air Alarm and Low Temperatures
Post by: craneman on February 23, 2017, 10:51:51 am
Not all trucks come with filter dryers. The only way to get moisture out of my crane is to drain the three tanks daily. I get moisture at the governor sometimes. If in freezing weather the governor would stick where ever it landed at shutdown. I don't ever have that problem is Southern California.