Sunday:
Arrived at John's property Sunday afternoon. I knew from the minute I drove up, John was definitely the right guy I was looking for John caretakes an enormous plot of woodland, and has cut down a few miles of Class-A friendly and golf-cart friendly paths to the local river, a few dry camping clearings, and he lives on a trailer on the property. John is a touch eccentric, and if you don't like to listen to extreme political banter and commentary, then this is not your place - but the guy has a big heart, and is 'Good People' as they say.
John has everything he owns on wheels. A trailer for toting and filling diesel. A trailer with propane tanks mounted. A trailer with a toolshed built on top. A trailer for wiring/crimping. A tailer for panel storage. A trailer with giant water tanks. You get the idea. 144 tires in total, he told me. He buys the frames and builds everything himself from the ground up. Projects are all over the place, but it is organized chaos, and makes me jealous to the bone. He has a helper or two show up on work days, but he's clearly not playing supervisor despite his age (72). He's the primary 'do-er' around here.
Sunday afternoon we looked over the MH, looked at components, roof layouts, and came up with a plan of attack. Here is the list:
- Replacing existing battery frame
- Replacing 2 8g8d's batteries with 6 L16's
- Replacing original inverter with a 2800W pure sine Magnum
- Installing two separate morningstar 60A MPPT charge controllers for house batteries
- Installing a small 6-10 amp controller for engine battery maintenance.
- Putting as many darn panels on the roof as we can safely fit.
- Installing A/C soft start in one A/C, wiring it through inverter
Monday:
Panel Mounting:
Played with a few configurations and panel sizes, but ended up going with six 190W, 33-ish V panels. We'll wire three through the first 60A (150V max) MPPT controller, and the other three through the other. That gives us 90-100V in each controller, which is a comfortable amount. 1140W total.
Four panels fit just about perfectly in the front, with about 9 inches of clearance to the front A/C, just enough to prevent shading from the unit. We were about 5 inches short of being able to fit three panels in the rear, so we went with two. Pictures aren't great, but maybe later I'll take one from a better angle.
Battery Bank:
I showed up with the replacement frame already welded to fit the batteries. So the procedure was:
-remove wires and batteries,
-unbolt frame pieces,
-clean and seal holes,
-bolt in new frame,
-add new frame, add batteries
-cut and crimp new wires for the battery bank connections
-reattach existing wiring.
Tomorrow is panel wiring and inverter replacement.
Looks great! 1140 watts is exactly what we have. You are going to be very pleased.
P
Answering questions:
-Monday's work took the three of us around 5 hours.
-The batteries are Crown One L16 6V AGMs, with 390 AHs each. Wired in a 12V system, that gives us 1170AHs. Overkill, to be sure. But since we are wiring the A/C in through the new inverter - the high margin for error will be appreciated.
Yes, but you can only use half of it (50% discharge), so really 585 AHs to use each day. Still beats the heck out of our 2 AGM8Ds, with 245 AHs useable (at 50% discharge). I have battery envy!
You skipped the step of cleaning that dirty floor. You did an outstanding job of it. What did you use?
Inquiring minds want to know,
Trent
Chuck,
Us too.
We are waiting on the "flow cell" battery to be developed more.(we may be retired from the RV lifestyle before they are on the market) According to our son even with the high cost they are the next big thing in battery tech. The research company he works with claim at least a 10 year life expectancy and only loses 1 percent of its capacity every 1,000 cycles.
Pamela
Just baking soda and water! One of those nylon bristle shoe brushes to loosen the dirt, and an old towel to wipe it all up. It looks a lot worse than it was - mostly just road dust - came up easy.
That is 760 lbs of new batteries compared to the 335 for 2 8D's (or about 410 for three). Did you do anything to reinforce the floor or make the feet on the new base much bigger to spread out the load?
Be sure to add backwards facing air scoops like John H did over those vent holes (and the ones on the LP tank side too) to help prevent water spray from getting in there.
I am adding four L16 6V where the LP tank is now this summer.
Feet are about the same size, but the new frame has 6 feet instead of 4, and each row of three rests atop metal backed area - no weight on the insulation backed area. Feels very solid.
I read the post about John's spray shields a month or two ago - I will put it on the list!
How long are you planing on running an AC unit on the inverter? In running numbers in my head if you have full charge batteries and getting 50% out of solar cells you could run 7 hrs max.
We don't plan to get greedy. It's not too far off the inverter's max continuous load, so I don't want to consistently use that much power anyway. Maybe an hour a week on an unbearably hot day? If we have a plethora of sun/power then maybe we'll sneak in an additional hour.
Tuesday:
1. Charge controllers - we mounted these via plywood onto the storage bay cavity wall that sits directly behind the battery bank. This was not a fun area to work in, and it took far longer than it would have with a more convenient location. But it was the only option that would keep the wire run from the controllers to the batteries a reasonable length - ended up being a 6 foot run.
1. Cable runs - from panels to controllers to batteries. Even though John showed me all the numbers as to why 10 gauge was adequate, he acquiesced my request with no protest to use 8 gauge wire instead. All I ever read is that wiring is too thin, wiring run is too far, wiring is too thin. So we went with overkill. We went down the fridge vent, into the space underneath the fridge, into the battery bay, through the wall to the charge controllers, and then back from the charge controllers to the batteries. Unfortunately, the previous installer ripped open the vent cover grill at the top of the wire run. We drilled a hole in the side to re-do it, and fixed the grill as best we could.
3. Old Inverter removal - We had to detach the frame that holds the inverter and air compressor in order to remove the inverter. The new Magnum will fit inside, but we'll have to bend the frame out about and inch, and bend it back about an inch in order to get it inside. That's the plan anyway - the new inverter goes in tomorrow morning.
Other notables: John noticed that the old shunt pictured below had a 3/0 wire on one side that was much hotter than any other wire in the system. John said this was because there was a bad connection - he thought because of a bad crimp. There was corrosion underneath the connection on the shunt. In the picture below, you can see there was a little black staining on the wall, indicating some minor burning. He clipped off an inch or two, re-crimped the edges, put in the new magnum shunt, and tonight the wire is as cool as a cucumber.
More photos of Tuesday:
James. I ran #2 copper stranded down from roof to controller and that was a tough run but glad I did. I carried the #2 to batteries also
via the copper bus bars and firstly the breakers.
JohnH
Impressive. I do have one question, though. The panel mounting, one clip at each corner, is it sufficient? Can't grab the panel between mounts and flex it? Not criticizing, just surprised that mounts could be this simple. No personal experience.
I have absolutely no idea - but everything I've seen John do so far suggests that he takes no shortcuts and does it right - so I will assume yes until a panel breaks and needs to be replaced. One item that might be related to that train of thought: When we were discussing panel size and layout, he mentioned that he didn't like to install the big panels on certain rubber roof RVs because of the potential for flexing - particularly those who would be on bumpy roads in cold weather (Alaska was mentioned) - but he said that the old Foretravel fiberglass roofs were very solid, and there wouldn't be a lot of play.
I actually had a PM specifically about the brackets, so I attached two pictures. It's a steel two-piece mount - he drills a new hole to mount the U-Shaped bracket, which has built in threads to eliminate the need for a nut - and then the mounting bracket itself has multiple levels.
PS - the flex you see in the bracket was done in a vice to make the feet sit flat on roof.
If I remember correctly, the mount you picture is part of a garage door installation kit.
P
....They look Similar to the rocker foot mounts from amSolar they have the ability to tilt to either direction. Same as I have holding down my 160 watt panels with 3M tape and dicor.
RV Solar Panel Mounts - Mounting Solar Panels on RV - RV Solar Panel... (http://amsolar.com/rv-solar-panel-kit/mounting-accessories)
Wednesday:
Inverter install - In lieu of bending the old frame, John cut and extended the width two inches via weld. This required that we pull out the metal sliding drawer. John eliminated about 5 feet of excess 2 gauge wire from both the black and red side, and recrimped. Wired the A/C power in/out lines.
Display and BMK install - There was an existing Trace battery monitor meter that I really disliked - but we were able to use the existing telephone cable rather than make a new run for the Magnum display and BMK, which was great. Saved us a lot of time, particularly since I broke the old Heart inverter telephone cable line when we were removing hardware (don't ask me how), and we would have had to run a new line otherwise. Phew. There was some fairly minor wiring around the battery to add for the BMK to function.
"Manual solar disconnect" - When I saw how big the solar disconnect boxes were, I asked if there were any other options. I've also read that solar disconnect boxes aren't always a necessity, but that's another discussion. So instead, we installed 40 amp fuses I could pull in the exterior fridge access panel - I liked this solution much better. Note: Because by that point it was unclear which of those already-secured-lines were + and -, we put fuses on all 4 lines instead of figuring out which were the two positives.
Tomorrow: Rooftop wiring into the solar wire runs. Engine battery maintenance runs.
Thursday:
Panel wiring.
Wired the six panels in two series of three. Each series went in to a previously completed run to a separate charge controller. On the voltmeter, each series measured at about 125V in the shade at the junction box. I should have taken a picture of the back of the panel so I could share the exact specs. I know they are 190W, so I'm guessing rated about 45V each? I also should have taken pictures of the junctions boxes - but I did not. I was just excited to see power production, and forgot about the rest. John wanted to use a solar sealant only - no screws - to secure wires and boxes. I already have countless holes in my roof, so I was fine with this if he was. If anyone really wants to see junction box pictures, let me know and I'll take some. I did most of this work - and I'm not much good at straight lines and neatness - so it's not much to look at.
Engine battery maintenance:
Rather than a separate panel, we installed a Magnum Smart Battery Combiner. I hadn't done any reading on this - and my intuition told me (and still does) that this was a better option for those who were plugging in rather than for those who were on solar. However, John pushed this option hard with me - and I knew he would make less money from this option than from small battery maintenance panel - so I agreed. It was a very easy install - a wire on either side of the boost solonoid + ground in the engine compartment, and mounted it inside the fuse-box cavity at the foot of the bed. Does anyone have experience with the Smart Battery Combiner? Any advice to offer? I'll go through the manual in depth tonight.
Boxes:
We moved the bedroom outlets to the inverter. Also a very simple project. Move three wires and a breaker from the main panel to the inverter subpanel. We elected to hold off on the soft start A/C install, and did not move the A/C to the subpanel either - his R/V AC guy has been out sick all week (I heard him on the phone, sounded awful) - and he was tentative to tinker. I will try this as a DIY project, I opened up the A/C unit and have the original wiring diagrams - hopefully I can figure it out!
TESTING:
Ran on the new inverter all last night - and left on every appliance I could think of all night to test, and to drain the battery so we could see if the solar charging was working. Inverter works great (and doesn't pop my GFI outlet like the original modified sine wave one always did) - and I woke up at 83% charge (12.68V) even though I left a 25-ish amp draw on most of the night. The benefits of having about 600 usable ahs!
Today we "flipped the on switch" (by putting fuses in), and at 2:30pm on a 70 degree mostly sunny day in Florida, we were putting in almost 50 amps into a battery that was already at 12.7V before we stuck the fuses in!
Conclusion - John is a self-proclaimed difficult guy to deal with. But if you can handle letting strong opinions and personalities lay untouched for a few days, he sure did good enough work to earn my recommendation. He also went out of his way to make sure I was comfortable, had food, had power each night, and he even let my cats run around his property while I was here.
And the end result, 1140 watts putting 45+ amps into a reasonably charged bank in good but not perfect conditions - that is worth the recommendation alone IMO. If I encounter any reason to change that recommendation during the course of my use - I'll update this post. Also worth noting that we did the whole-tamale here, this was mighty expensive, and we'll be eating mostly PB&J sandwiches for the next year. But John does work on a much smaller scale, if that's what you are seeking.
John Palmer - (941) 928-4573 - Mayo, FL.
Impressive I love all these solar posts, it gives me motivation!
I installed a smart combiner to keep my start batteries charged. It has worked out perfectly. Since certain things run off the start batteries that I didnt know about (dash radio and the cigarette lighter I have my SiriuxXM plugged into) I didn't understand why the start batteries were going dead after a week or two. After tracing power, I got it. Added the smart combiner and eliminated the alternator isolator. Now the alternator directly charges my starting batteries and as long as they are full, the combiner sends power off to the house batteries. It does the reverse when plugged in, or running generator (I dont have solar - yet) Whenever I charge the house batteries off my inverter/charger, the start batteries get topped up too, and I havent had any starting problems since installing the combiner. In my opinion, a far smarter choice than a charger or separate solar panel, for simplicity and flexibility not to mention having a lot more amps available in the event you accidentally drain the start batteries by leaving headlights on or some other draw.
Nice write up James, have you enjoyed any of the country cooking at the Mayo dinner?
Breakfast every morning!
Same 12-14 people in there every day at the same time.
My Family used to own a farm in Mayo. If you get a chance try the lunch buffet.
Update: Turns out these
weren't sufficient! The panels in the rear that were protected from air flow by A/C shrouds and fan covers were fine. However, the front panel is mounted less than a foot from the front cap. When I got over 40 MPH, there was a pretty aggressive squeaking and rattling, presumably from the air coming up off the windshield/front cap area. Given how close these panels were mounted together - adding an additional bracket on each side wasn't really an ideal solution. So here is the
low-tech solution we went with:
1) Lower the front panel - we lowered the "rear" screws by 1 notch, and the "front" screws by 2 notches, giving the front panel a slight aerodynamic forward tilt, and preventing some of the air flow.
2) Bought some piping insulation, and slid it underneath the center of each panel to provide some cushion.
After these changes, we had zero noise, zero rattling, zero squeaking. Worked like a charm. At first, we didn't secure the piping. Drove 30 minutes and checked - they hadn't moved. Drove another 3 hours and checked - they had moved left/right a few inches, so the solution was less than permanent. When we got home I drilled a hole in the side of each of each panel, and put a zip tie around each piece of pipe insulation to prevent movement.
Some of you may be surprised by this type of "fix" - but after seeing it in action I am quite sure it is an adequate solution. I'll probably replace the insulation every few years. If we have one of the panels flex and shatter, I will be sure to update this post so nobody makes the same mistake on this type of "easy fix"!
Also want to update that everything is working great!! We've been going through about 200 AHs each evening/overnight, and we've made it back to 100% each day, even being in a less-than ideal location. Been using the microwave again after 3 months of a microwave-less life! One day it was really cloudy, and we only made it back to 96%.
About the mounting of your front panel...I think the biggest problem is the close proximity to the front of the coach. That, and the fact that the "long" side of the leading panel is facing into the wind. We only have 4 mounting brackets on our panels, and they have been perfectly secure for almost 10,000 miles since installation. BUT, the panel nearest the front end is still well back (behind the laid-down crank-up TV antenna), and all the panels are oriented lengthwise.
If the foam doesn't hold up, you might be able to add some kind of low spoiler lip above the windshield, to deflect the air over the panel.
Yes that was another option we considered, good advice! I think if the compression of the pipe insulation doesn't hold up, maybe we'll try a 'pool noodle' that's firmer, if we can find the right size. Otherwise, a spoiler lip is probably the next option. Luckily, I think that if whatever option you go with isn't working - the panels will speak and let you know it! This issue isn't likely to escape unnoticed.
In addition to the foam support you have added, maybe put a foam tube all the way across the front to block air from getting under the front panel. Just a thought... I guess you would have the roof curvature to overcome...
Some of the problem might not be air getting "under" the panel, but rather air turbulence effecting the whole top panel surface. Since a Unicoach going down the highway is basically a brick, the airflow directly behind the front leading roof edge could be quite disruptive.
James, once I finish my lunch I will send a pic of what I did for the cure. Simple and has been on for 4 yrs with no movement or noise.
Give me 15
JohnH
I made these out of Aluminum and then cut with hacksaw up centre from base to be able to bend ever so slightly to fit curve of roof. They are held down with VHB tape (of course) and I put 3 up on roof to be in line with the rows of panels. have not moved in 4 yrs and worked as expected.
JohnH
Wow John, I don't doubt you'll never have to touch those. Looks great, wouldn't expect anything less from you. I'm saving a copy of those pictures as a blueprint for if I end up having to do something like that.
By the way, do you have a link for the air scoops you used to protect the battery bank / propane tank grates from water spray?
Would also be interested in knowing what flavor of VHB tape is your favorite for exterior surfaces. There are so many types.
James, the scoops I make myself out of 18 gge aluminum sheet and use tape to hold in place. So no drwg just use your mental ability of pretending you are the water and want to get in??? Anything to stop entry is good as long as you do not seal the holes up.
The tape I use is at home so cannot give you specs, but it is around 1/16th thick and 1" wide so I use a few strips depending on the size of footprint that I am adhering. VHB is on the tape backing, but I think the 3m they use to hold on car door trim will be similar and that is easy to get at o'rielly's etc.
JohnH
Nice looking installation! How did you secure the mounting feet to the roof? VHB tape or tape plus screws? If screws, how long and did you try to go into the roof framing? I'm about to mount some panels on my roof
You might look at adding these aluminum louvers (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQWK7E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) temporarily at the bottom of the vents to keep the water out. They seem to work pretty well and don't require any modification other than some adhesive.
Edit: added photos.
We used screws and sealant. We didn't go into the framing - our roof is still in good shape. John H is a tape guy - either should be fine with the appropriate precautions. I honestly don't know how long the screws were. I was on panel placement and foot measuring/marking duty - another guy did the securing. Something I probably should know, but hopefully there is never a need to find out!
Robert, I actually tried one of them and found they did not keep heavy rain etc out, so made my own which because they hang lower keep all moisture out. I have one at every hole in basement floor not just at battery bay.
JohnH
Did you remove fridge to run wires?
Did not remove fridge, just used a flashlight shined up the access panel to be sure we didn't get the wires inside the coils (while we were lowering them down the refrigerator vent)
We removed vent cover and used ties to guide wires down inside panel of compartment. We wanted to make sure over time they did not come in contact with heat or chafe.
While at Old Town Motorcoach in April, I discussed John H's solar pane windscreen (he posted pics above). I've attached two pictures of the solution OTM came up with. Not exactly like John's, they cut a piece of metal to the curve of the roof, and used sealant to create a wind-tight flat-front in front of the first panel. I was initially concerned that the bottom edge would eventually work it's way through the sealant and cut into the roof - but we've driven 3,000 miles since then, checking it often, and it still looks good. I'll keep an eye on it.
Best of all - quiet as a whisper. No wind noise, no vibration. I'm a pleased customer.
What brand and model combiner did you use?
I used a Yandina combiner - an old sailboat supplier that makes excellent products. I used the Yandina Combiner 600, replacing the diode isolator with it. It performs flawlessly, I have not had a dead or low battery since installing and I am able to run the inverter down the road on trips and arrive with my house batteries still 100% full, which wasnt the case with the old isolator that sucked.
The sterling isolators seemed fine, but the yandina wins with simplicity. Start batteries and alternator on one post, house on the other, done. Start batteries ALWAYS charge even if the combiner were to fail. You can even wire the yandina in place of your boost solenoid as it is able to be remotely activated anytime in addition to the automatic operation. The yandina is based on a tyco latching relay, it doesnt get hot and draw a ton of current like the boost solenoid.