We were turned yesterday so the air intake was directly facing high wind and driving rain. I have read of water getting into the intake and subsequently into the engine when the air filter came apart. Any ideas on where to check for moisture without pulling the filter or should I assume the worst and just change it?
Thanks
George
The cheap filters have wire on the outside of the paper. The good ones have wire on the inside too. Makes it very hard for the paper to come apart. Should not be hard to check.
Pierce
If you air filter is like mine at the back driver side of the coach you have a separator that has a rubber duckbill that you can check
to see if water got that far.
Check (pinch) the duck bill on the bottom of the air filter container. It is towards the rear of the coach. If nothing comes out you are probably OK especially if younare not movint for a few days. Cummins suggests that if you open the air cleaner canister you should be prepared to remove the old filter, clean the canister and put in a new filter. If you are going to put in a new one get the best you can like a Donaldson DBA5024 Blue filter.
If you do open the canister for a look see be very careful to not disturb the filter at all.
Whatever you put in it must have wire mesh inside and out. The difference in price between the most expensive air filter and the cheapest is about $30 or the price of a rebuild.
Feeling the need to change our air filter... according to the part number list from the Foretravel owners manual, the 99' ISC Cummins uses Donaldson part number P148043, or Fleetguard part number is AF1838M. The Fleetguard number comes up empty on the Donaldson cross reference page, but the Donaldson P148043 crosses to the Donaldson DBA5029 Blue. I like what I read about the Blue filter line, but I want to be sure I order the right one... My manual also shows the same part air filter numbers for the M11, and I have a 2003 manual in pdf form that shows the same air filter numbers for the 400 HP ISL and the 450 HP ISM. That makes me think that Foretravel used the same air filter housings across the model lines through those years at least. I wonder what the difference between the Donaldson DBA5024 Blue that Roger posted and the Donaldson DBA5029 Blue is?
Hmm...
Don
I replaced my air filter with a Donaldson DBA5029. It does not have the gasket /hole for use with the Filter-Minder. It also did not come with a replacement cover gasket. It looks like DBA5024 is probably a better replacement if you want to use the Filter-Minder.
Donaldson DBA5024 AIR FILTER, PRIMARY DONALDSON BLUE Engine & Hydraulic (https://catalog.donaldson.com/productDetail/en/A/DBA5024?productId=11826&skuId=s10735)
Donaldson DBA5029 AIR FILTER, PRIMARY KONEPAC DONALDSON BLUE Engine & Hydraulic (https://catalog.donaldson.com/productDetail/en/A/DBA5029?productId=11831&skuId=s10764)
Just make sure when you open the can up you get everything out that's in there. Use a vacuum cleaner if needed. Don't leave anything that can be sucked up into the turbo, a piece of a blade of grass can take out a turbo. 8)
How would a blade of grass destroy a turbo??
So if I follow correctly,
Let a few days pass, we aren't moving for ten.
Check duck bill to see if water got that far and if it did
Replace filter with a Donaldson Blue using appropriate technique as described by Barry
The current filter was replaced in July but filter minder says we are good. I think though I will replace it anyway.
Thanks for the insight as I just don't know this engine well enough to make sure I am doing the right things in uncommon situations. My 5.9 CTD is a good model but the air intake is maybe 18" long and no water issues.
George, if the filter was replaced in July you should be able to figure out what filter was used and then check on that filter. Most filters are going to be OK. There are only a few cheap ones with no interior wire mesh. I would do everything else before opening up the filter canister.
I doubt that rain blown into intake on a parked coach would ever touch the filter, possibly some in the housing which would drain thru duckbill. But if you choose to open and replace use a Donaldson blue....water resistant media in addition to superior filtration.
A good thing to do while you're in the neighborhood is inspect the air piping from filter to turbo. Clamps tight, nothing rubbing, no holes, needs to be airtight so contaminants aren't being sucked in. I found a hole in mine from a tube rubbing on it. Had to replace the turbo.
Chuck, your comment on a tube having a rubbed hole reminds me of some thing I mentioned a while back. There are many places under our coach's that have pipes, hoses etc sitting tight up to each other that are wearing thru. I have found at least 6 or more that I have covered with pieces of rubber between them and when Don & Tys visited he found some on his too while under it in our pit. One of mine gave way on our last trip and I lost all my Hyd oil in Florida. This is an issue that I feel all of us have as many fan motor hoses are too short and tight up against sharp corners of frames etc. Joust a point to check for everyone.
JohnH
That's what the tech person at Borg Warner Turbo systems told me after mine grenaded on my Peterbilt. It was only 8 months old and I had just had air filters replaced when I had oil service done. It was a expensive lesson. Clean Clean Clean! 8)
The most expensive air filter is the cheapest insurance you will ever buy. Chuck was lucky that only the turbo needed to be replaced. Rear engine RVs are super susceptible to air induction faults. This is doubly so on U280/U300 with the crazy air intake at ground level behind the rear tires. I had one new owner call and said his new to him U300 had the entire air intake replaced by a small K&N filter attached to the turbo. The previous owner said the K&N was much superior to the OEM system. A dusted engine overhaul will cost between $20K and $30K.
John, because I neglected to check our hydraulic hoses before a coast to coast and back a couple of months ago, two hoses rubbed against each other and both failed. Cleaning the toad took much longer than replacing the hoses. Crawling under with a bright light is part of a good preflight before a trip. Our hoses are single jacketed so don't do well with any kind of abrasion no matter how slight.
Pierce
Ok here is a revised approach,
Called home and asked my son in law to check the second filter I purchased with the installed one. It is a Fleetguard that was purchased from filter barn and does have metal on both sides.
Read the warnings about overservicing filters both here and on the canister.
No rain this morning so I checked the duck bill and traced both sides from the filter. Nothing lose, wet or rubbing.
I am going to leave it as is
Will search the forum to get a better understanding of "dusting"
Thanks for the feedback and patience.
George
Dusting occurs when dirt gets by an air filter and literally grinds the metal parts of the engine, particularly rings, pistons and cylinders with the abrasive properties of dirt.
"Dusting" is where there is an air intake fault, either with a air cleaner failure, air intake tubing with a loose clamp/damage/abrasion or very often, owner inflicted modifications that result in the engine ingesting dirt over a long or short period of time (depending on road surface). This dirt rapidly wears the cylinders resulting in low compression/hard starting, excessive oil consumption. This means replacing the liners/cylinders/pistons in engines where that is possible. Abrasive material will mix with the oil and wear all other engine parts. Parent bore engines (no liners) will require a more involved/expensive process to restore the engine.
Rear engine RVs (pushers) are much more susceptible to this as everything kicked up from the front and rear tires has to be filtered. Later coaches with the high intake position mostly solve this problem with the exception of an intake fault (clamp, abrasion, etc) or a misguided owner replacing the OEM filter with some "magic" aftermarket design filter.
Pierce
I've seen advise similar to this several times. Does anyone know the rationale behind this? I understand not blowing the dust off with an air compressor but what harm does gently pulling the filter and putting it back do?
see ya
ken
I pull ours out all the time. I blow it off with low pressure air. It's a WIX and built tough. Blowing off a wet filter is not a good idea. With our low air intake, there are always sticks and leaves in the cannister.
Pierce
I don't see anything wrong with checking your air filter at regular service intervals, the Po of our coach had some work done on this coach and in regards to the turbo and it was my understanding the clamp or clamps were not tight and he dusted the motor. Any time a person does not do a proper pretrip on there coach ,truck or whatever by looking touching and wiggling there is a chance you could miss something. These things we drive have to be looked after and maintained.
Vacuuming the housing is because some of our units actually flow the housing backwards. If your housing sucks air up the middle of the filter through to the outside of the filter and then to the engine it's reverse flow. Anything that falls into the exterior cavity when you pull the filter can now be sucked in.
Ken, I think the rational is that us clumsy owners will bang it and therefore deposit some of the exterior dirt loose and into can, hence it will get sucked into engine system. I have removed ours at the beginning of ownership but now with my intake protected I do not need to worry anymore. I say if you are very very careful you should be ok, but have the sense to be seriously checking what you are doing.
JohnH
These filter canisters are a concern. The cover on mine attaches with four machine screws with springs behind them to maintain tension. It is possible to draw it completely down where the springs are compressed and so, I suppose, is the foam gasket. I wish there was a guideline indicating what proper torque or drawdown is. I have removed a filter that had obviously been compressed, expanded metal wrinkled. It was significantly shorter than the new filter that replaced it. Would seem to be possible to crack a filter pleat.
Being once bitten twice shy, I went over the entire intake system from filter to turbo, spraying starting ether around every connection, with engine running, listening for the speed increase which would indicate a leak. All good now. Since service life on these things is so long the next time I replace I intend to silicone rescue tape wrap the cover/canister interface. Belt and suspenders I suppose.
Chuck I seem to remember in documents that there is a torque to achieve. I think (being the operative word) it was 4 in lbs, but will check
JohnH
The springs need to be completely compressed, otherwise the screws would back out. If there is a torque it will be after compressing springs. If there is a shoulder on the bolt then bottom it out and torque.
When we did fleet maintenance on our western star oil truck the recommended torque was 8 inch pounds. The western stars had air cleaners on both sides of the cab.
"I wonder what the difference between the Donaldson DBA5024 Blue that Roger posted and the Donaldson DBA5029 Blue is?
Hmm...
Don"
[/quote]
Hi Don,
I have a long standing industrial relationship with Donaldson Torit filters. The difference is shape, cone (Konepac) on the DBA5029 and round on the DBA5024.
Here are the specs on both filters; DBA5024 (https://catalog.donaldson.com/productDetail/en/A?R=sku12867792A&productId=11826&skuId=s10735) & DBA5029 (https://catalog.donaldson.com/productDetail/en/A/DBA5029?productId=11831&skuId=s10764&_requestid=7945344)
Darrel
Not sure what that means, the 3 specs are the same for each filter.
The only difference I see is in the make up of filter. One has a "spiral" strengthener and the other is a series of circumfrential rings going the length of it instead. Now, exactly which is better than other I do not know, it maybe just a way to get around the patent, but will let Daryl explain that if he is able.
JohnH
Looks like one comes with a gasket and one doesn't.
DBA5029 is the only replacement for the OEM filter. The DBA5024 is a reverse air filter. This information is directly from Donaldson Technical Support.
I can't find anything on the website that says they are different. I will have to check but I think I got the DBA5024 from FilterBarn based on their cross reference at the time to the WIX filters from the Fleetguard filter. The dimensions are identical on the website. The DBA5029 says Konepac.
The OEM Fleetguard AF1838 cross references to a WIX42610
The WIX42610 cross references at the Donaldson website to P151097
The P151097 cross references to Donaldson P129396 and to Donaldson DBA 5024
Now I have no idea.
Edited ...
No I think the DBA5024 is right
Trying to figure out which one to order here... Roger, did the one that you ordered come with gaskets glued to both ends of the filter? I previously got one from Filterbarn that was a fleetguard and it was missing the gasket on the small end. I had to remove the gasket from the small end of the old filter and glue it onto the new one... PITA!
Don
The patent reference I can't answer but my understanding of the benefit of the cone vs round is simply available surface area for increased filtration with the same basic footprint.
Darrel
I think I am going to climb the ladder and jump! Now I need to find out if the Fleetguard from Filter Barn had two gaskets or one. Beginning to realize I need to do all of this myself. Provided the filter to Tech in VA and who knows if he moved a missing gasket.
Beamalarm.com shows that a Donaldson P14-8043 was the OEM filter. The alternate Donaldson filter is a DBA5029. DBA5024 is not designed for the air flow direction required in our applications.
Beam Alarm and our manuals both spec the Donaldson P14-8043. The DBA5029 was what I came up with as well, however, the pictures of the filters on the Donaldson website (same pictures use on some of the vendors websites as well) showed a gasket loose next to the filter on 5024 but not on the 5029. That said, I think the extra gasket shown is for the cover. Both numbers have the same conical shape, and I don't think the filter housing could accommodate a straight sided cylinder shaped filter. The air travels from the outside of the cone to the inside of the cone with the smaller diameter facing the rear of the coach (small end is capped and has a gasket with a small hole within the circumference of the gasket for the restriction gauge). Both ends of the filter need gaskets as well as the lid for the filter housing. The filter medium needs to have the wire mesh or equivalent on both the inside and the outside for maximum integrity of the system. Just popping the lid off and having a look is NOT likely to introduce contamination (as long as some care is taken about where you do this, and of course the engine is not running at the time) in my opinion, as what you see when you do that is the outside of the filter and the turbo intake is at the back of the housing. Here are pictures of both filter numbers. The vendor site does't give any technical information, for that you have to look at Donaldson's page to be safe.
Don
Thanks Don...Steph talked me down from the ladder.
Look at the pictures of both of them and you will see that the one on right has a top gasket installed and the one on left does not show any (as far as I can see) #24 has it #29 does not.
JohnH
I noticed that too John, however it also appeared that there was possibly a slight difference in the angle of the shot. In any case, there is no clear indication either way. Hopefully this thread will eventually result in some first hand knowledge of the subject!
Don
Since Filter Barn stopped carrying our favorite filters, we looked around and purchased on Amazon Prime $43.42 Lubrifiner LAF-9396 air filter, which is perfect. Metal mesh in & out, Filterminder vent hole in small end, attached foam gaskets on both ends of filter and new cover foam gasket in package. And now we get 7 MPG. (whereas previously we only got 7 MPG)
Here is what the Beam site says for filters for my 2001 coach, yours may be different.
Cummins put in a WIX 42610 when they did mine. The Donaldson is still sealed in a plastic bag and in the box at home so I cannot look at it. It is a DBA 5024 which is definitely cone shaped.
This was confirmed by Dave M, bless his heart. ❤️
It came from Filter Products. See their cross ref for the DBA5024
http://www.filterspro.com/detail_2.cfm?part=2671687
Before I would believe one thing or another from hear say you should take a damp rag and slide under your coach and scrub off the grime on the filter can tag. Yes all filter cans came with a tag that spec. the filter that was needed for that filter can. I don't have a pic of one with me and we are away from our coach or I would post a pic as to what you are looking for. Most coaches that we have looked at the tag is about 6" in front of the duct bill drain.
Pamela & Mike
So Barry's mileage stayed the same?
Mine says P14-8043 which coincidently is what I put inside. had to crawl under the back and it is around 90f here so need a beer now, that was hot work. ^.^d
JohnH
Which agrees with my owners manual and with the Beam Alarm site, which also lists the Fleetguard AF1838M. However, Donaldson's own website lists the DBA5029 as the cross from the P148043 (Donaldsn's site doesn't like the dash) but I can't find any information about gasket VS no gasket. Did you take a picture of the housing part number while you were there John?
Don
In the links to the filter the one ending in #24 style is round the one ending in #29 style is cone. You have to read the whole spec.
The air filter in my coach that failed causing severe engine damage was a Luber-Finer LAF9396. It was installed by the PO shortly before we bought it. Cheaper. No interior mesh.
Look at the Donaldson details for the Blue Filters
http://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/literature/north-america/donaldson-blue/F111417-ENG/Donaldson-Blue-Filtration-Overview.pdf
I am sticking with what I have. I think it is the correct one.
You might choose something else.
Link to the spec you are referring to? Here is a picture of a page from the Donaldson catalog that lists the DBA5024 under the EBA Konepac Service Parts & Accessories section.
Thanks Don.
Your welcome Roger! I am still gnawing away at this issue, trying to get to the bottom of it. My supposition only, but so far It looks to me like Foretravel took a housing that was normally meant to flow in the opposite direction (i.e; in from the end and out the side) and fit it to their application which is largely determined by the air intake location and the necessary CFM (as far as I can tell, other than the filter choices, there isn't significant difference between the two styles). The filter that would normally go in this can doesn't have the small end gasket or presumably the hole for the filter minder. This makes the cross reference guides not as straight forward as one would think. Crossing from a known good fit is likely to be safest. I am still working on it, but at this point I am inclined to go with the DBA5024. I wish I could find a sight with product shots that clearly show both ends...
Don
In post #26 Donaldson DBA5024 details say round DBA5029 details say cone. Images are some time deceiving.
They are both round, both tapered. Nowhere does it say cylindrical. Don's reply 48 is pretty clear. DBA5024.
Or whatever you want to use.
But back to my Post #28 I mention the tapered seam from top to bottom. Only difference I can see other than a gasket on one (top) and not on other. easy to make that out on the picture!!
JohnH
I don't want to get in the middle of all you Unicoach guys, but that chart that Roger posted (reply #47) shows the DBA5024 crosses over to the Fleetguard AF954M. The AF954M is what I have been using in our coach. It is conical, and has grey lines on the outside of the paper element, which indicate that it is specifically designated for reverse flow operation. That is, the air goes in the open (big) end of the filter, passes through the paper element to the outside of the filter, and then on into the engine. As I understand this discussion, the Unicoach air intake works exactly the opposite. It would seem to me that you would not want a reverse flow element in your application.
The AF954M comes with a gasket glued to both ends plus a large loose gasket that seals the outer cover.
Chuck P. , it is entirely possible that your 1996 U295 is different from my 2001 U310 with an ISM11. When Cummins rebuilt my engine after a cheap filter failed they used a WIX 42610. I trust that that one is good enough and the Donaldson DBA5024 is a somewhat better replacement for my engine.
Chose the best fit for yours.
Chuck A., On mine the air comes in from the side of the canister through the filter and out to the engine through the large end as shown in the drawing
Seems to me after reading all these posts,
1st - always use a quality filter
2nd - proper fit with proper gaskets
3rd - air flow direction....... filter from inside to out (I would call this reverse) or outside to inside (seems normal to me)
Our 95 U280 flows inside to out, the later built Unicoach must be the opposite?
I removed my filter rant, realizing it served no purpose. Will follow along and hope others can decipher the filter code.
I do not worry about water and all the other junk that normally gets into them as my Deflector stops water and that other stuff. Had the water scare once then designed this simple thing and never any moisture again (well damp air I guess to some degree which I think is kinda normal) The one in canister now has been on since Nov 2014 and I did check it before this trip (bad boy) and it is almost as clean as new. So there.
JohnH
I am going to backtrack here. Look at page 69
http://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/Air-Intake-Systems-Product-Guide.pdf
Don's picture of the EBA Konepac is for air coming in the back end and out the side.
Chuck A's comment made me look more. For the application where air comes in the side and out the end it is an ECG Konepac.
So maybe it should be the DBA 5029.
I need a return trip to Remulak to figure this out.
Now I wonder if the WIX 42610 is correct or if is bidirectional?
It says at the bottom of the Donaldson cross references that it is up to the user to decide which is correct. Wow this is confusing.
Just got under the coach to look at the model of canister I have and it is the ECG11-2011, so as chart shows G112001. So the 5029 is the correct one., which is the old #P14-8043.
JohnH
Roger,
The dimensions of the DBA 5024 & 5029 are identical. I think it is extremely likely that they are the same filter with the difference of the gasket on the small end and likely the filter minder port. It is just my theory, but I am betting that the filter medium is bidirectional. I suppose high tech manufacturing could design a filter medium that be comprised of nano-venturis to optimize flow in one direction, and the medium could be reversed between the DBA 5024 and 5029, but I doubt that is the case. As I said before, I suspect that Foretravel reversed the flow compared to that diagram and that the direction of flow is only crucial when the filter medium is not constrained by the wire mesh on both sides of it, but I could be mistaken and am going to keep digging. It is possible that only a call to Donaldson will settle the question. However, one thing I fell sure of is that there needs to be a gasket on the small end of the filter to provide a snug fit to insure that the big end of the filter is sealed around the turbo inlet side, and have a port so that the filter minder reads from the vacuum side of the housing. Finally, I am going to get a picture of the filter housing label to see what the part number of the housing is. I am not in a hurry, but I do want to settle this. Given what you experienced when your engine was trashed with a wrong filter, I can certainly understand your concern, and in the interest of avoiding that kind of trauma, I feel the same!
Don
Thanks John! Still, I am not convinced that the DBA 5029 will be the right choice in the Foretravel application, unless it does have the small end gasket and the filter minder port. I am going to get to the bottom of this! If anyone orders the DBA 5029 and can confirm that it has these attributes, I will be only to happy to put it to rest. Since the dimensions are identical as listed in the Donaldson catalog, the only questions that remain are 1. Is the medium itself bidirectional, and 2. Does the 5029 have a filter minder port and is there a gasket on the end?
Will be happy to put this one to bed for tonight! zzzzz....
Don
From Donaldson ...
I see it! But still... going to keep digging. Is there a publication date on that document? Anyway, here is an interesting thread form five or so years ago;
Air Filter - Engine (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10221.msg47201#msg47201)
There is a guy on there who is or was (or at least claimed to be ::) ) a Field Service Engineer with "a company that has something to do with "Coolants, Cooling Systems, Filtration, Diesel Engines". Anyway, there are is some interesting discussion about the different schemes FOT has used in different years. We aren't the first head scratchers on the quest to come to grips with this vital system on our coaches. What you posted would seem to settle it, and yet I remain confused about what part to order. All I know is that Simplyfiter (I thought it was Filterbarn, but they were out of stock) sent me a Fleetguard filter that crossed according to the book, and I had to modify it to make it work by gluing a gasket on it from my old filter. I don't remember whether or not it had the filter minder port in it or whether I added it to match the old one, but I do remember it was a PITA to remove the old one without destroying it. It did (and does) have mesh on both sides of the medium. Looking back at the receipt, I see they sent me a Fleetguard AF1838 and not a Fleetguard AF1838M (as called for in the owners manual). Hmm... Could be the difference, but I can't find a cross for the Fleetguard AF1838M, only the AF1838. Okay, I give up for now because I am just spinning my wheels at this point :(
Goodnight all!
Don
THANKS for posting that reference. After I made my comment about the "dark lines" on the outside of the filter media, I tried to find where I'd read that, and didn't have any luck. Back when I had the incident of the rats building a nest in my air filter, someone on the Forum pointed me at that same exact reference, and told me to check my new filter to be sure it was correct. ^.^d
AF1838 - Fleetguard | Air Filter (http://www.simplyfilter.com/af1838-fleetguard-air-filter-p/af1838.htm)
This is a link to Simplyfilter showing the one I buy P14-8043 which is a crossover for the DBA 5029 and showing the foam seals at both ends. I have allways ordered by this P# and had no problem getting it and it also had the Filterminder small hole.
Never ordered from these people but they have a good picture of it.
JohnH
That is structurally identical to the Fleetguard I am using.
I replaced my air filter with a Donaldson DBA5029. It does not have the gasket /hole for use with the Filter-Minder. It also did not come with a replacement cover gasket. I was told by Donaldson that they feel reuseing the cover gasket is acceptable. Cover nuts are 8ft lb maximum. Stamped on the nut.
DBA5024 is a reverse air filter, not bidirectional. It is not recommended as a replacement of the OEM filter.
Thanks Bob, nice and decisive.
I just looked at the Donaldson Australia site and they show the DBA 5029 as also crossing with the P14-8043 AND the P150694 which according to Rogers pic of catalogue is the one to use, BUT as mentioned crosses with others.
Beam alarm has it right as shown in FT books in each coach.
JohnH
That picture clearly shows the gasket on the small end snd it is the place where I ordered my last one. Guess the one I got without a gasket was a fluke... still, I would like to get the appropriate Donaldson Blue filter with the nano web media, which from the crossover reference, should be the 5029. For most of the parts these diesel engines use, you can find dimension CAD drawings with every detail delineated. Amazing with this crucial system, all I can find (from Donaldson at least) is a product beauty shot in profile...
Don
So no small end gasket, and no Filterminder port... seems like a poor match to me. :o So to be able to use the DBA 5029, one must extract the small end gasket and make there own hole? Did you just do away with the Filteminder function?
Don
I'm just trying to follow this interesting discussion cuz it's...interesting.
I don't understand where this "Filterminder port" is located on the filters you guys (want) to use. Where is the hole?
Order the P14-8043 and it comes as needed. Like I said still available by the looks of it. End of problem I would think!!
JohnH
Filter hole is in the end of filter small end.
Will look at my filter later today ,it is a Donaldson but not blue will post findings.
Small end within the circumference of the gasket. Since the vacuum is on the inside of the cone of the filter (flows from outside the cone to the inside) and the filterminder gauge is hooked up to a port in the middle of the cover on the Unihomes (starting around 99'??), the filterminder gets its vacuum reading from the center of the cone, which depends on the small end gasket for a seal.
Don
Thanks Don - my AF954M (DBA5024)
did have that hole, although it serves no purpose in my application.
It can be seen at 11 o-clock position in photo below.
I did not purchase the DBA5029 with the knowledge that there were no provisions for the Filter-Minder system. After maintaining this coach for eight years and a round trip to Alaska, with horrendous dust conditions, I saw absolutely no reaction from the Filter-Minder. Yes I tested it and it does react to a vacuum. My filter had a total of 22000 miles. As I change this filter every three years or 36000 miles using the Filter-Minder is apparently is not necessary in my application.
Agree with you Bob," big storm in a Teacup"
JohnH
Losing the Filterminder is certainly not critical for most using a motorhome who change the filter regularly, but I wonder if not having the foam gasket on the end might make it a looser fit with the only gaskets to hold the filter in place being the one on the big end. I gather not too loose, or you probably would have noticed.
Don
John,
No storm in a teacup or otherwise, just a search for the facts. I know I have options, even if it isn't the Donaldson high tech Nano-web blue media filter, but I have time as I am not in a hurry.
Thumbing through the document linked by Roger in Reply #59, I noticed a odd technical tidbit.
http://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/engine-hydraulics-bulk/catalogs/air-intake/north-america/F110027-ENG/Air-Intake-Systems-Product-Guide.pdf
On page 63, the "EBA" filter design (reverse flow) lists a maximum airflow capability of 1850 CFM (@ 10" of water).
On page 69, the "ECG" filter design (standard flow) lists a maximum airflow capability of 1600 CFM (@ 10" of water).
So, when Foretravel moved from Unihome to Unicoach (more powerful engines), they went to a air filter arrangement that has less flow capability.
Seems kinda backasswards to me. ???
Thanks Don for continuing. No longer looking for resolution but rather following this to learn.
No problem with fit. The installation was the same as previous installations.
Thanks for all the digging that went on here. I am just wanting to make sure I have the correct filter. The wrong filter cost me more than $25K in engine damage. It is not a storm in a teacup but searching for facts and sometimes that path is a bit wandering.
Thank you Roger as your posting of previous experience was what initiated my OP.
Roger,
From the photo, it was incorrect filter DESIGN, not necessarily poor quality that causes your engine dusting. With air entering from the outside, going through the filter and then clean air in the filter center to the engine, the wire/support is on the WRONG SIDE= intake side.
In other words, it was set up for "reverse flow"= inside to outside.
Maybe part of this thread should be renamed?
"Use the Proper engine air filter!"
Yes, MANY of the filters on coaches have housing that may "look the same" but are very different:
Fuel filters may look exactly the same, but may be 2 micron or 30. BIG difference. Is it being used as a primary filter or secondary filter. Again, BIG difference.
Coolant filters may look the same, but same have zero units of SCA, others many, many units of SCA. No one answer fits all. If you have the newer OAT-based coolants, you want ONLY the zero unit filters. If the older "low silicate for diesel with added SCA, you need to TEST THE COOLANT to determine the correct filter (different amounts of SCA). So even if it was the correct filter last change, it may not be the correct filter (based on SCA concentration) now.
Still obsessing about air filter design, flow direction, Fliterminders and the like. I find myself very motivated to come to conclusions that will allow me to feel like I have a good handle on the optimum air filter solution for our coach. What I have learned so far makes me realize that filter media is generally, but not always, designed for directional flow. Some are labeled explicitly as being bidirectional. I also came across an article by the Technomadia guy, Chris Dunphy on a Baldwin air filter failure that may have cost him an expensive engine rebuild. Here is a link to the article to which I will also attach a pdf.
Baldwin Air Filter failure analysis (http://www.technomadia.com/2013/10/failure-analysis-did-a-baldwin-pa2721-filter-kill-our-8v71-engine/)
One of the quoted replies from a Baldwin engineering team member states;
The article makes for interesting reading on the general subject of large diesel engine air filtration even though it isn't about a Foretravel... to me at least. I read this when first written but since air filters weren't on my mind at the time, I hadn't paid too much attention.
Don
We lost a Detroit 8V-71 in a fire truck during a major fire in Santa Barbara that burned almost 300 homes. The truck and crew were trapped and had to use the fire shelters. Unfortunately, the engine was not turned off and some burning material was sucked into the filter catching it on fire. The engine then ingested the burning material and didn't run well after that. We put fine screens on the air intake after that.
Pierce
Brett, I think you are right. That filter may have been OK if the airflow had been different. In any case it was the wrong filter for the application where the air comes in the side and out the end as it is on my coach. When it got wet it failed. I don't think the PO purposely chose the wrong filter, he just took it to a local shop that put the wrong one in.
So do your homework well. It is your engine at stake.
I would add to Roger's comment...that EVERY air filter fitted to your coach should have the wire mesh reinforcement on BOTH the inside and the outside of the filter medium. BOTH SIDES, regardless of which way the wind blows in your air cleaner. Just a little extra insurance against the thing coming apart, for whatever reason.
Would possibly have saved some of our members big bucks in the past.
We have a Donaldson P129472 filter, gaskets on both ends, the smaller end at the end cap has a 1/16 or 1/8 hole on the end
inside the gasket ring,I think this is to pull the filter out if stuck.
Not sure what is meant by the filter minder hole in the air filter but if somehow they are bypassing the filter media for the minder
then that defeats the purpose.The minder measures the pressure drop across the air filter media.
I have a Donaldson housing using black plastic encapsulated nuts (4) and bolts, the torque of 8 lbs. is written on the nut, no springs.
See Reply #72, #75 and #76 above. In
some applications, that hole allows the "vacuum" signal to reach the Filter Minder.
More info, looked at my housing, the filter listed for it on the label is a P129472,which switches to a DBA5025,(specs match),looks
like I have what you are calling the "reverse flo",the air comes in to the inside and thru the filter and out from the outside of the filter.
My minder is on the outside of the housing,as the filter gets clogged it takes more vacuum to pull air to engine and moves the
minder.Yes I read all the posts, and the minder hose has to be on the engine air intake with the filter between the minder and atmosphere or your not measuring the filter, maybe thats why some of the minders never work.
Haven't seen all the variations but maybe Foretravel just used whatever housings were availible at the time.
It is a good lesson to all of us that our coaches are not the same, different years, different engines and it appears different air filters. So double check your set up, see if you can read the label on the side of the filter canister, if you are not sure don't guess, keep asking ... make sure your filter has wire mesh inside and out.
I checked with the Cummins Coach Care in St Paul about the WIX filter they put in mine. They called Foretravel and put in what they told them to use. He said that some filters are best used with the air flow in the direction they are designed for. There are some filters that will work either way.
For over 10 years, we have been using Fleetguard AF1838 air filter. A few months ago, after finding that FilterBarn stopped selling Fleetguard products, and seeing other seller's prices much higher, we went looking for alternatives. Ended up choosing Lubrifiner LAF9396 because of its price. Well thanks to this great thread, Roger & Susan informed me that our Lubrifiner choice was not a good one.
Even though we only considered filters with metal mesh on out and inner sides, we also learned from the Forum that filters and housing are designed for directional air flow, identified as Standard for Air in the Outside & Out the End and Reverse for Air in the End.
We looked at our coach and saw the filter housing label was in perfect condition and identifies housing as Donaldson EC G11-2001 and filter as P14-8043. This week after spending a couple of hours on the Internet found more questions than answers, I asked the following to Donaldson:
--- TO SUPPORT ---
We have an on-the-road vehicle that has a Donaldson EC G11-2001 air filter housing and we don't plan to change the housing.
For years we have been using filters, but were not aware of the need to be concerned about air flow direction. Over the last week we have been doing detail research on which Donaldson air filter we should use. Our air flow is Standard with air In from the Side, and Out the End.
Our research tells us we should best use a filter designed for this Standard air flow direction, but in almost every reading of filter specifications there is no mention of air flow direction designed into the filter part number. We would like to not choose a filter designed for Reverse flow.
We will be using cone shaped filters that fit our Donaldson housing.
The small end hole was plumbed to a Filterminder gauge that has proven not to be useful, so we are not requiring the small hole anymore.
It would be nice to have a new bolt-on end cover gasket with the filter, but we could reuse the previous gasket or buy a separate gasket if it does not come with a new filter. Donaldson specs do not seem to mention if a filter comes with a new gasket, but the photo associated with the part number may show a loose gasket next to the filter. Would be nice to know for sure if a filter comes with the gasket, but this too, is not a deal breaker for purchasing the correct filter for our vehicle.
We see 2 Nano fiber filters and wonder which is standard and which is reverse air flow: DBA5029 & DBA5024.
We see several Cellulose filters with the same dimensions and want to know the differences: P150694, P151097, P148043, P129396.
I have read many Donaldson catalogs and filter specification pages, and hope that you have access to more information, because my reading has not answered my questions.
Donaldson did respond with exactly what I was looking for:
--- FROM SUPPORT ---
You're correct in noting the EBA model air cleaners use a conical air filter of identical size to the ECG model air cleaners with the difference being the EBA is reverse flow, the ECG is standard flow. The filters aren't interchangeable between the two.
We also discovered an error that crept into our part detail on our website that showed a standard media element and Donaldson Blue element as alternate parts for the correct filter for your G112001. They aren't alternate parts, there's just one filter element for G112001 – P148043.
I think the simplest way to answer your question is the following:
• G112001 is standard flow
• G112001 is equipped with an adapter for an optional restriction indicator in the service cover
• There's only one replacement element for G112001 – part number P148043
• P148043 is the element that comes with a G112001 assembly when new
• P148043 includes a new cover gasket P155211 each time you buy a replacement element (not pictured on the part detail online)
• P148043 is cellulose media with a chemical treatment to inhibit carbon build up
• P148043 features a gasket on both ends (not depicted in the representative image online)
• P148043 has a small (.18" diameter) hole in the closed end cover to allow the restriction indicator to measure a delta P between the clean and dirty side of the filter (not depicted in the representative picture online)
If you were using an element other than P148043, it explains why your restriction indicator wasn't working. The other filters have closed endcaps and no gasket on the closed end so you weren't getting a delta P reading between the clean and dirty side.
I think if you only use the correct replacement filter P148043, you'll get everything you asked for; gasket on both ends, small hole in the closed end cap for the restriction indicator to operate correctly and a new cover gasket with each replacement filter purchase.
Based upon my new information, I went to Fleetguard web site and was pleased to learn that the Fleetguard AF1838 we were using was correct. Fleetguard crossed this filter to Donaldson P148043.
--- CONCLUSION ---
We could continue to use Fleetguard AF1838, but are planning to immediately trash our recent Lubrifiner and buy a Donaldson P148043 air filter.
Within in a few days I went from complacency, to confusion, then information & frustration, and now a solution. Thank you Roger, thank you Forum posters and thank you Donaldson . . .
Has anyone found who may have lowest cost for Donaldson P148043 ?
This is a good site for low prices
FinditParts (http://www.finditparts.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&s=p148043&commit=)
I did a lot of head scratching on this one as well... based on the Donaldson website alternate part reference, I ordered the DBA5029 based on the flow direction, and expecting that there won't be a gasket on the small end or a small hole for the filter minder. Given that the dimensions are correct, I expect to add the small end gasket myself and will likely add the .18" hole for filter minder support, although I may just plumb in a fitting for the filter minder elsewhere which would eliminate the need for the small end gasket. It seems like Donaldson could easily make the DBA5029 a proper cross for the P14043, but I guess the business decision is that there isn't enough demand to tool up and offer it. Too bad... :thumbsdown:
Don
It seemed like such an innocent post at the time 😜
Just to clarify.............this is the correct filter for the Unicoach which uses the "standard flow" filter and is incorrect for the GV coaches which use the "reverse flow" housing set-up?
My Post # 60 showed that the correct filter to use P148043 and as I do not try to save a few bucks on this kind of thing by getting a cross referenced one of another maker I was never in doubt but this info sure has made a few double check what they are doing in this very important subject. I also mark with marking pen on the respective location which oils and filters I have used so do not have to worry about which ones etc to use, or go hunting for old invoices etc.
John H
To clarify FourTravelers question: What I have learned is each housing is probably engineered for Standard or Reverse air flow. And each housing model has a correct filter. Sometimes there are alternative filter choices, but Donaldson's web site may or may not be correct on alternatives, but the original recommendation will be ok.
My whole recent discovery is only based on our Standard air flow EC G11-2001 housing. Foretravel likely used different housings and may have even changed hardware during the model year. I am only comfortable with what the air filter housing label says.
So I don't know the answer to your question.
--- MY LAST QUESTION TO DONALDSON ---
We are a member of a group who have been quite confused by what to use for a similar Donaldson air filter housing. Many have 'guessed' at the differences in Donaldson filters, often based on catalog photo differences.
One more question: We assume P148043 has metal screen on the inside for protection against filter disintegration from air flow. Is this correct, and does the filter also have metal screen construction on the outer side?
We are familiar with cross Fleetguard AF1838 which does have metal screen construction on both in and out sides.
--- DONALDSON'S ANSWER ---
Regarding construction of the P148043; yes, it's an axial seal, pleated filter element so it features steel end caps with a rubber gasket on both ends. There's an inner liner of stretched steel to support the media. A bead of glue around the circumference of the media forms a pleat lock to inhibit movement in the air flow path. The outer stretched steel liner provides protection of the media/pleats during handling.
I apologize because I know that in spite of the large amount of information we have published between our catalog and online part details, it's not always clear or complete and the use of "representative" images online doesn't always help clear things up either. I know the EBA and ECG conical air cleaners can be especially confusing since the elements are dimensionally identical and it doesn't specify they aren't interchangeable between the two because of the designed direction of air flow.
MY FURTHER INFO:
Axial seal refers to filter ends are sealed by being pushed against housing ends with gaskets between the filter and the ends.
I had heard that the four black plastic nuts that hold our air cleaner end cap in place are not available. I just found they are currently available from many online stores as found with Google search.
part number is Donaldson P119325
I was looking for P148043 filters and found it for $46.16 from RyderFleet products. Sounds like a good price but I have never used them and wonder if anyone has.
Thanks Barry, Don, John H. and all our forum members for bring this to our attention. I checked my air filter can and this is the filter needed for my 2001 U270 with ISC350 engine. I have AF1838 in my coach now with no problems but I did reuse the outer gasket.
Based on the information from Donaldson I will be using the P148043 from now on- KISS. ^.^d
Ted, we bought our P148043 from Ryder as their price was much lower than others. But their shipping can take a month as they special order it. Our filter arrived in two weeks. No tracking is available, even though I asked several times, so I had to go on faith if it was going to arrive (and it did, in a big sturdy box).