Hi Everyone. I'm am shopping for an older Grand Villa, and I'm afraid my budget only allows for a fixer upper.
One that I am interested in is the '86 listed. My research says that is the OREG Oshkosh V-814 chassis with the Ford 460. The current owner has converted it to the Ford 7.3 idi Diesel.
Has anyone done that conversion? I hear those Ford engines are great and some folks claim they are the best engine International ever made. I would just like to know what to look out for with that one, and if there's any advantage to getting a Grand Villa with the heavier chassis that's been a diesel from the start.
Thanks!
That reminds me of a old song (Johnny Cash?) where he worked for the GM factory, stole parts and built his own car over the years.
With a lashup as described, you'd have to go to numerous outlets to get service, if they'd do at all.
Loved my OREG, hated the 460. If the motor could get enough cooling, not sure I would be too afraid, as long as you were "handy" and the conversion had proven itself over a number of years and miles before you bought it
I actually might have converted mine had I realized it was feasible after I blew up my 460.
Brett W and Pierce would have the most informed opinions
One Piece at a time! I don't remember how that worked out for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWHniL8MyMM
If it drives well and inexpensive enough I would be a player.
If the switch was well done and you can take it for a good drive to really make sure it won't get too hot or anything then I wouldn't be scared of it. If the mounting looks haphazard and bubblegum welded or really poorly machines I would be worried. Pay close attention to how well the did the trans mounts and look to be sure the driveline isn't on a bad angle that will tear up universal joints.
The IDI 7.3 was a bit of a dog but gave good fuel mileage and went for ever. Had a customer at the Ford dealer who delivered travel trailers he retired his IDI with over a million miles (1.6 million km). Put injectors in it a few times and four or five transmission (the automatic was the weak part in them) and a couple oil pans.
The Owner did the swap because his 460 blew up on him coming back from job site. It is a new conversion, so I suppose there would be some teething pains. I plan on doing the work myself, so a smaller engine like this seems much less intimidating than a 2000lb Cummins.
Strongly agree with what Derek said...X2.
From my very limited experience doing "amateur" engine swaps in hotrods, I can tell you the devil is in the details. Any hack can manage to stick almost any engine in almost any vehicle. Making everything operate correctly is the tricky part. From driveshaft angle, to transmission interface, to cooling capacity (already mentioned above), to fuel delivery and electrical...every single aspect has to be well thought out. Otherwise, all you end up with is a rolling collection of incompatible parts.
Many considerations, swapping a gasser to diesel power. Look it over very carefully before plunking down hard-earned cash.
I think the 7.3 sounds great.
FWIW,
I have an older 7.3 ford truck and that engine is great! I love it. If installed correctly, should be a good one. Would not expect the AC to cool though. I would think that would be asking a lot. Not saying it could not be done but......, That engine is an upgrade over the 460 gas engine IMHO.
Best of travels,
Since Ford pickups were available with either engine, it should have been a pretty straightforward swap. My biggest concern would be what the 7.3 did in its previous life.
I put a "Dealer's Diesel" 7.3 IDI Ford/Navistar mechanical turbo in a 29 foot Southwind along with the 5 speed manual trans. It was a pretty inexpensive change over with the exception of the drive shaft. It was just under a foot short so I had to have a new tube installed. The mechanical engine has just a few wires to hook up with the glow plug timer/controller mounted on the top rear of the engine. Other than that, a wire for the fuel solenoid, alternator, gauges and that's about it. Yes, I had to make up a clutch pedal with master cylinder.
Lots of power so I was always in 5th going up the on ramp to the freeway. It was geared on the short side but still did well mileage wise. The only RV to beat me going up Donner Summit on I-80 was a 650 hp rig with a small helicopter on a trailer behind it. And he was just a tiny bit faster. The Monaco diesels were not even close. The oil pan can turn 180 if you have to but then you will need to modify the oil pickup and dip stick. Not an issue with a pusher. Used a Nissan 300Z PS pump for the steering and brakes. Yes, Southwind/Dodge used a PS pump for their disk brake assist.
Think they have a different name now but here is a link to start with: TheDieselStop.Com Forums: Dealers Diesel remanufactured engines? (http://www.thedieselstop.com/archives/ubbthreads/IDI_Archives/forums.thedieselstop.com/archives/showflat.php-Cat=&Number=40419&page=26&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1.htm)
I still have the engine/trans.
Pierce
Another benefit of the 7.3 is they are relatively cheap. We just ordered a brand new drop in 7.3 turbo for the dusky that pulls the race car.
Drop in was 9300 Canadian
Last time we did injectors 4000 Canadian
Turbo when we blew it was 2000 us.
None of that includes labour
Automatic would be just over 2000 Canadian to rebuild.
That's on a truck that is loaded to the max (based on weight we need an "A" cdl to drive it and cruise at 80 mph unless the hill is too steep. We really beat on that thing we only stop to switch drivers or buy booze at duty free. carry enough fuel we don't get any.
Always wondered why we don't see more 7.3 motorhome especially in the class c.
At this age of unit stuff that hasn't been looked after shows a lot worse so you should have an easier time determining the level of care it received.
My 7.3 has 389,000 miles, still pulls 20,000 pounds of hay/trailer and the 41' racecar trailer on weekends. Just be careful of exhaust temperature if it is turbo exhaust. Good on fuel too!
"turbo exhaust" Isn't spell check great!
"Always wondered why we don't see more 7.3 motorhome especially in the class c." - quote
That was on my to do list 15 years ago. Always thought a mechanical 7.3 turbo with a solid auto or better yet 5 spd manual would make for a nice reliable class C as long as the radiator was big enough and the rear end could handle the torque. Oh the projects I never had time for...
I am kind of surprised too that with the cummins 5.9L being so popular that the 7.3 L Ford isn't used more in rvs.
It is not fords engine but International/navistar's engine. I bet as they did not want to deal with motorhomes at the time.
The radiator is always the problem or it was for me. The ducting has to be right and then it will work fine. The manual transmissions were ZF, Getrag or New Venture and all seemed to have a first gear that growled a bit. Think this is the same trans Dodge put behind the 5.9. With the 7.3 Ford/Navistar, you need to make sure it has the single plate clutch as the pressure plate with the two plate clutch and the very expensive flywheel need to be replace about every time. Disk/throwout bearing replacement cost about 10% as much as the troublesome double disk. As I remember, the 1 ton Fords had the single plate clutch. The 7.3 were nice and smooth midrange but seemed a little rough at top end. They should bolt up to Foretravels with the gas 460 automatic. Thinking that 5th was a .77 overdrive so that may make up for the gas 460's higher RPM.
Pierce
Pierce is correct, the F350/450 trucks have the single disc. If you use an engine with aftermarket turbo an egt is a must.
There is actually an improved single disc clutch it's the only one we could get to last. It is almost solid no torque springs in it at all.
As for navistar not wanting to deal in more homes maybe but class c used Ford econoline same as the ambulances most of them up here were diesel. I saw one class c with a factory 7.3.
I would recommend you make sure take a good look to see if they used the drive shaft and yokes from a diesel to use stronger u joints. Even the IDI seems to produce enough torque to work those joints.
Yes, that's the one I have. The PU owner spent a fortune on the engine and transmission but had a front end accident that totaled it. I bought it in Minnesota and drove it home with the steering wheel pulling like crazy to one side. Junked the truck but sure used the engine/trans. Made a lengthy trip to Canada and lot of trips to Mexico with it. Very funky Southwind but lots of fun. So ugly we got kicked out of a WalMart parking lot.
Never was a fan of the rotary injection pump on the 7.3 or the 5.9 Cummins. The 5.9 did have some great Bosch inline pumps that were pretty easy to turn up the fuel with just a file elongating the slot.
Pierce
We have the pump at stock but we carry a spare clutch and pressure plate behind the back seat next to the spare slave cylinder with hoses and reservoir attached and full. Both have been changed en route and did the turbo in the pit area after qualifying (got pulled over by the cops twice that trip for all the smoke). The muffler kept igniting the oil and going off like a cannon.
An IDI will be getting on the old side for ford dealers if you ever break down on the road but lots of mechanics and parts places will be familiar with what you need if problems arise.
Ran across a car hauler goose neck trailer guy running double gcwr with a 7.3 and getting 350k miles out of them.
30k load plus the truck.
7.3 is tunable by Gale banks and others
Ideal solution for the oregs I sold lots of.
30?
To me, the weak spot on a 7.3 was the cam sensor. When it goes it
dies right there until replaced. After my first time I carried a spare
one in the glove compartment. I have had 4 or 5 of the 7.3's and then
Ford went to the 6.0, which was a terrible step down. Have not tried
the new one they are using now. Still have a '95 F350 that has 112,000
on it, wish I could find a new one just like it.
Carter-
We have a'87 6.9... other than replacing the injector pump due to the "new" diesel blends,,, still turning dead dinosaurs into smoke and noise
Yes the 6l nightmare. Lots of fixes out there for them now. My new boss has a brand new Ford 750 with the 6.7 in it. Happy with it so far other than we can't find anyone allowed to do warranty work on it apparently everyone here can't do bigger than a 550. My boss is buying 6 more in the next two years.
As for the 7.3 yes carrying a can sensor would be a good idea they are cheap and easy to change.
Very interested to hear how you make out with this
After buying one for every 7.3 never had another to go out. Several
people I knew had them to go out. Our glove boxes were the parts store
for several. They all sold with an extra in there except for this 7.3 I keep at
the farm. with a goose neck on it, it will out pull anything anyone else shows
up with. Why did Ford quit buying them? Pollution issues???
Carter-
I worked at Navistar in Waukesha, WI where we made the four bolt main bearing caps for the 7.3 engine.
Lots of quality issues until I was able to get them fixed.
Example: broach cars (they each held a main cap) would not stay locked.
Example: Dial index machine (that I designed while working at Wisconsin Drill Head Co) constantly broke the drills so holes wandered. Turned out WDH purchasing agent specified a rap coupling instead of an alignment coupler on each slide feed cylinder.
Example: The setup guy came in the first day I was there and wanted to know which mark after the "6" on a vernier calipers was .01"
He had no idea how to set the tools on the machine.
Example: We also made the "B" and "C" caps for Cummins. Almost every month we would end up sending two inspectors to go thru the palletainers of caps we had sent and do 100% inspection of them.
Example: The machine shop was shut down and everything shipped to Mexico. According to the Division Manager he fired the Machining Facility Manager ( Carl Metzger) because he lost too many good people. (we quit because of Carl)
I'm curious about the manual transmissions. Have they been used in Foretravels? I could see them in a front engined one but the linkages for a rear engine would be pretty incredible.
I had a 1969 Bronco with 3 on the tree and I always thought driving manuals were more fun, so an RV with one would be quite an adventure.
There is an 86 gv 36 for sale in Salina KS Craigslist. 3208 cat for $7k but it kinda suspect.
Have you found that coach for under 4,000? It will be hard to find one
as most of those are sitting on lake lots or a place in the country.
Much nicer digs than you get in anything else for that amount of $.
Carter-
Phred,
Someone must have liked it, because it is gone.
Carter-
785-342-7932 ask for carlo.
Got an email late yesterday afternoon wanting to know if I was still interested. He has the manuals.
Working another deal, for a 94 u300 wtb 6v92 with fresh tires, batteries, (1) new roof ac, always stored inside, all manuals and Nac service records from where purchased in 96. But we're not talking $7k either.
Still there, ad title lists it as and 89 but description lists 86 which it is. 26000 gvrw 197k miles so it's probably been used on a regular basis, new start batteries and alternator that's miswired as it is not charging. No pictures.
Funny you should mention that...I spotted this item and thought this seller could benefit from this Forum by introducing her dad's rig, that is for sale. This coach belonged to her 90 plus año father. Cool looking ride, right?
2017 Travel in Style~ 1985 Travco/Foretravel 36' Rv Motorhome (http://austin.craigslist.org/rvs/6010213900.html)
I wonder how Foretravel was able to get the same storage pods on my '81 4 years before this Travco?
On that 1985 the fuel says gas but the description says diesel pusher. HUH?
Original post explains it. Gas engine removed Diesel engine installed.
Interesting as to side storage. Since Mr. Fore owned both
companies I would have thought they would have been about
alike on the fiberglass outside that just the interiors were different?
Carter-
There are 3 of those storage pods on the roof of the '81 side storage was minimal because of frame, kept them shallow. It has 3 on the pass. side and 1 on the driver side
I'm talking to someone that has an '86 Grand Villa that originally had the 460, that he had replaced with a idi 7.3. for that price it seems to be worth putting some work into. If that falls through, I am considering the pros and cons of getting a gas engine GV and converting it to the 7.3 or if its got the Chevy 454, to a Cummins 5.9.
The main difference as far as I can tell is that I would then have the Oshkosh 814 chassis with hydraulic brakes, the Ford C6 transmission and leaf springs instead of the 917 with air suspension, the Allison 643 and air brakes. Well, and another 8000 lbs GVW.
I imagine that the smaller chassis would be easier to work on, and get better gas milage. both major considerations for me. The 917 chassis is probably more robust. and I hate to admit, has the coolness factor. I've done a fair amount of research, and i think any Foretravel I get will be a great ride.
Please keep the thread updated. It would be awesome of follow your progress. Good hunting!
Will do. I am currently second in line for it. the buyer ahead of me is hemming and hawing a little too much for the seller, so there is still a chance I get this one. Otherwise, I think I wouldn't be so quick to turn my nose up at a rear engine gas model. This seems to be like a viable conversion.
Before I forget it, if you do make a conversion to a 7.3, remove the OEM fuel filter, fuel heater, etc. assembly and round can it. It has a dozen places for air to get into the fuel system. Just remote a fuel filter (mount and filter NAPA or ebay) and add a Facet electric pump to prime it. Only use the long tubular variety not the square kind.
Pierce
It may be a stretch because of the weight factor, but a friend blew the 454 in his 36' AS. Found a Duramax and Allison from a rear-ended fresh truck. Took him and his Dad a few months, but he sure is happy! ^.^d
Sounds like a good conversion. Don't think the weight is that much different. Rear end ratio might be a little on the short side. Our 440 Dodge was high numerical side stock and with the 7.3, really on the short side. Did cruise an easy 60 though. I can see taking a little longer with the electronics.
Pierce
PPL has a 87 Foretravel,may be worth a look they are calling it above average.
So... I'm going to go check this out and probably bring it home in 10 days, if there are no surprises. Its got the 7.3 IDI, a 2 speed differential, which sounds like how they dealt with the lower rpm engine. I don't remember if its the 7.3 IDI or the Powerstroke 7.3, but one of those mounts on the 460's engine mounts, so it sounds like an easy swap. Ill ask again which engine that was.
Good Luck!
Update: I went and looked at it and bought it. The electrical system is a mess, so I haven't driven it yet, any more than seeing that the brakes and drivetrains worked. The seller took another 500 bucks off for the electrical issues, so seemed like a good deal to me. 3500 dollars for a 1986 grand villa. We will be in Carlsbad, NM for all of April fixing things, if anyone is out this way. Thanks to all you with the presales advice.
You dun good, that's about the right price for a good looking coach that YOU KNOW will need some attention. Stay in touch. ^.^d
Flopsie
I wanted to buy that coach for spare parts but I was overruled, now you have bought it that will save it, which is more important.
We will be in Roswell around the middle of next month so I'll check with you and maybe a side trip down to see you and the 'Saved GV'
Best of luck with your project
It would have been a shame to break it up. The interior is all Rosewood, and nothing really major is wrong with it. We will be here all of April, If you want to check it out. As a brand new RVer, I would love any advice on keeping these old girls running.
Take a pic once you get settled down, I always thought FT only did walnut or oak. No matter what wood, very pretty! Get some dry silicon for the tambour door slides and Zep "Wood Doctor" for the rest. ^.^d
I saw the sales listing from when it was last sold as a used vehicle and they said rosewood. the mans son, who sold it to me said cherry. I know its definitely not oak. So unless they did a custom wood, maybe its maple?
I had a 93 done in pecan. It was really nice.
According to some of the old paper work, its rosewood, and also mentioned is that Foretravel didn't offer rosewood after 1987. and Rosewood is illegal to import. SO, if this is what that wood is, that's sumthin.
Tell us how the work is going? How close are you to hitting the road?
What obstacles have you run into? I showed your posts to a friend, that
is a mechanic and he is thinking about putting a 7.3 PS in a FT with a 460.
He made an interesting observation. You have to divide an RV into two
categories. The coach and interior. The other the mechanical and address
each as a separate item. It has to be able to run and drive to get it home, there
the interior can be addressed.
Good luck,
Carter-
I would have to think way more than twice to put a 7.3 PS into the coach. The 7.3 IDI or in my case the 7.3 IDIT, could go in in a day or so without much wiring and can run on most any diesel fuel, bio, petro, ultra low sulfur, etc. Injectors are also super cheap with a set of 8 costing the same as one common rail injector. No ECU, no nothing!!!
Just the thought of how many hours it would take to do the ECU wiring, etc. would break most banks.
Ours still runs like a clock and is FAST, much faster than the U300 but much lighter and manual trans.
Good article on the 7.3 IDI at: Ford 6.9L and 7.3L IDI Diesel Engines - Diesel Power Magazine (http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1208dp-cheap-fun-ford-idi-diesel-engines/)
Pierce
That's really good advice.
Well, the original plan was to spend s few days fixing the things i knew about and then limp it home to do more extensive work. So the guy who was selling it for his friend, came out and showed it, and helped me make sure the breaks worked and that it ran. Then we were preparing to drive it somewhere more convenient to do the rest. Then we saw under the dash. It wa a MESS. No exterior lights worked at all, and not much of anything else. I think at that point, any sane person would have had it towed. Not me. Not enough money or sense for that route.
So I have spent a good deal of time working on making the thing livable. So up till now, I've been getting the appliances and water and the batteries in shape, and taking a crash course in RV 101.
Next up is the electrical, and making sense of that mess. And finally we need to do a few things to the engine, the worst of which is 2 broken bolts on the turbo housing, which makes a nice exhaust leak.
So at least a few more weeks. I'm not fast at these things, and doing it all low budget slows things up even more. But at the end of it all, I will know a good deal about this baby, and I'll have a nicer Rv thank I could ever have afforded. I'll say this though, the more I dig around in the guts of this thing, the more i know i made the right choice in getting a Foretravel.
We are about 5 miles north of Carlsbad NM if anyone is out this way, and wants to take a look, or point and laugh.
Thats a great article. I didn't realise either that that the IDI was a good biodiesel engine. Having the exhaust smell like french fries is a plus in my book.
Diesels in general have been getting a really bad name in the last couple of years from manufacturers cheating on emission controls to the dangers of breathing all the compounds the diesel exhaust creates. In countries like France, diesels represent about 80 percent of the light duty vehicles but changes may be coming.
As I see it, bio-diesel is not a threat but a chance for both the light and heavy duty diesel manufactures to buy some time with the lower emissions inherent with the bio-fuel until the battery/electric vehicles mature and dominate our day to day transportation. With this year's new battery advances, that time is not that many years off.
Not that many years ago, the goal was to bring solar panels down to a dollar a watt. Now, we see panels advertised for as low as $0.27/watt and lithium may be on it's way out as a material used in battery construction.
Am I crazy? Who would have thought that Tesla would be worth more than General Motors? Shocking! ;) Perhaps I will wait a while before changing the turbo boost sensor resistor.
Good article on diesels at: Diesel: How it changed Europe and how Europe might change back | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/10/diesel-how-it-changed-europe-and-how-europe-might-change-back/)
Pierce
Pierce,
I misspoke, he was wanting a turbo charged non electronic engine and
not a power stroke. He said they used to be everywhere but are hard to find
now due to their age.
Carter-
We took this sucker for its first test drive today. There's still a lot of work to do before we can drive it any distance, but this is the first time its left the storage lot in at least 2 years. I think we have graduated from rv basket case to an rv in need of serious TLC.
How did 7.3 work in that rig?
I can't say a lot yet. we only went a few miles. It will get a more proper test drive when we get the charging system working properly.
The 7.3 seems to be doing well though. I just don't have any experience with diesels or big rvs, so I can't really compare it to anything. I was just thrilled it moved.