Foretravel Owners' Forum

Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Barry & Cindy on March 15, 2017, 10:19:32 pm

Title: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Barry & Cindy on March 15, 2017, 10:19:32 pm
We would like find air intake 'plumbing' leaks between air filter and intake manifold.  While engine is idling, we figure that spraying something flammable along the air flow including intercooler, if there is a leak the RPM's would increase.

What do  you recommend we use to spray?  Figure that some things, like starting fluid is too aggressive/dangerous, but maybe only a little would be ok.

Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: craneman on March 15, 2017, 10:27:35 pm
W-D 40
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Old phart phred on March 15, 2017, 10:50:23 pm
Yup, wd-40 is also sometimes used to start diesels that have air in the fuel lines, less harsh than ether but not recommend also. May bump the rpms enough to detect. Safety first, so maybe wise to do internal white glove or swab inspection starting out at the air cleaner.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: jcus on March 15, 2017, 11:10:42 pm
Or, you can do it the backward way. Shut engine off, put a leaf blower into the air intake and bubble test the air intake piping joints. Probably only be a couple of pounds pressure but  should produce enough to make some bubbles on the  leaks.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on March 16, 2017, 09:32:08 am
How about using smoke?  I've heard of this technique being used in the HVAC industry, to detect air duct leaks.  Fill the intake with smoke, seal it off, and pressurize with air from air tank.  Smoke comes out the holes?

Smoke Emitter, 3 Minutes, PK5 - Security And Surveillance Products - Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Smoke-Emitter-3-Minutes-PK5/dp/B005ZDXE1Y)
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: John44 on March 16, 2017, 09:39:22 am
As long as these "air leaks" are not letting dirt in its a moot point, its not the same as a vacuum leak on a car.Make sure all the clamps are in good working order and if you really want to put double clamps on where possible.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Barry & Cindy on March 16, 2017, 01:40:45 pm
I can see using WD-40 would make an oily mess everywhere, so that doesn't sound like the best approach.  I figure some kind of spray, like starting fluid that evaporates and does not leave a residual, just being sprayed along the whole air intake system. 

Be nice to find pin holes, cracks that are not visible, but wait, air cleaner to turbo is vacuum, but everything after turbo is under pressure, so leaks would not be sucking in unfiltered air. 

The pressurized parts would affect performance, but not letting in dirt.  So I just reduced the potential location to the big pipes from filter housing to turbo.  Nice...

I did not pick up on what John was saying about if not letting  dirt in. . .  But now see he was referring to the pressurized  parts..
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: John44 on March 16, 2017, 02:30:01 pm
Was referring to the side between air filter and turbo, if it just letting some air squeeze by no harm done, the clamps more than seal
a "leak".
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: its toby on March 16, 2017, 09:56:52 pm
The air filter is sized so that it won't be a restriction to the engine so it won't show vacuum between the filter and the turbo ever. Maybe full load wide open throttle and peak torque but even then it shouldn't. The only way you could create vacuum especially at idle would be to cover the air intake opening gradually while watching a vacuum gauge and you wouldn't want to do it for long or with fingers between the block off apparatus and the housing you are blocking.

After the turbo you need real pressure, at least 20 psi and soapy water. You want to check how much boost your engine is exposed to and check it there. This is where you will find the small leaks at clamps and porous charge air coolers that are robbing power on those long uphill climbs.

I used to have access to some aluminum pucks some one had machines on a lathe to mimick the shoulder of the turbo and of the intake where the rubber hoses go on so you would just install them with the stock clamps. One pick was drilled and tapped end we fed it with an old spike valve and a gauge but any air regulator and a gauge would work.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Forewheelers on March 16, 2017, 10:22:19 pm
Maybe carburetor cleaner, but id ask a diesel mechanic first.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Old phart phred on March 16, 2017, 11:22:18 pm
The air filter is sized so that it won't be a restriction to the engine so it won't show vacuum between the filter and the turbo ever. Maybe full load wide open throttle and peak torque but even then it shouldn't. The only way you could create vacuum especially at idle would be to cover the air intake opening gradually while watching a vacuum gauge and you wouldn't want to do it for long or with fingers between the block off apparatus and the housing you are blocking.

After the turbo you need real pressure, at least 20 psi and soapy water. You want to check how much boost your engine is exposed to and check it there. This is where you will find the small leaks at clamps and porous charge air coolers that are robbing power on those long uphill climbs.

I used to have access to some aluminum pucks some one had machines on a lathe to mimick the shoulder of the turbo and of the intake where the rubber hoses go on so you would just install them with the stock clamps. One pick was drilled and tapped end we fed it with an old spike valve and a gauge but any air regulator and a gauge would work.
Say what? A restrictionless air filter, I need one of those. The only time there is not a vacuum between the air filter and the intake is at zero flow, aka engine not running. You need a manometer to measure the vacuum. I would bet you will see -2 to 3" even with a new filter at idle.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: John44 on March 17, 2017, 12:07:23 am
I have a Dwyer electronic manometer, will measure in a few days, engine full of old insulation now.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Texas Guy on March 17, 2017, 12:11:31 am

Think he was referring to a new/clean air filter. The dirtier

they get the more vacuum there would be  post filter to

the turbo. One important thing he said was if you put a

board over an intake DO NOT get fingers under it between

the board and the intake pipe. There is tremendous force there

and can cut fingers off.

Carter-
   
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: its toby on March 17, 2017, 08:34:31 pm
Yes dirty air filter would lead to some vacuum. Of course there will be some losses related to friction and turbulence and such. The point is unless you try something it without some how falsely creating vacuum you won't get enough suction to suck in the accelerant reliably also if you do create the vacuum with an aid you will still have to go slow as there can be some lag time for it to go through the turbo and piping to reach the engine.

Bottom line diesel shops pressurize the charged side to check for leaks and for the suction side visual inspect and check clamp torque. Have yet to see a diesel shop use an accelerant to check for the leak as the diesels don't have throttle plates to create the vacuum required.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Chuck Pearson on March 18, 2017, 09:31:58 am
Restricting  the air intake port will create additional vacuum to enhance leak detection with accellerant.
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Dick S on March 18, 2017, 09:23:29 pm
Our 1st MH, an SOB, had an 8.3. After driving it for a year and having everything on the road pass us on the slightest grade, we took it to a Cuimmin's shop in Charlotte. Dyno showed we were getting 60 to 80 hp to the rear wheels. Should have been 220 or so! Tech immediately looked for fuel problems. While sitting on the engine moving fuel pressure gauges from here to there he just happened to feel an air leak. There was a short rubber elbow between the CAC and intake manifold. The factory seam on the bottom of it had opened, dumping turbocharged air into the engine compartment. Back then it was about a $17 part. Seemed like a totally new coach after that!
Air leaks can can cause big problems....

Dick
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: John44 on March 19, 2017, 01:32:48 am
Feeling/looking for pressure leaks in the CAC should be part of what we do as routine maintenance checks, is very easy to do.
I for one would rather do it myself then pay a shop $100 an hour.Was he sitting on the turbo?
Title: Re: Find air intake system leaks
Post by: Dick S on March 19, 2017, 07:13:25 pm
No, he was sitting on the other side. Just happened to feel the leak.