(I've changed the subject heading, since I added radiator photos and info - scroll down)
Does anyone have any info on the transmission coolers for the ISM? I'm looking for the vendor/manufacturer, model #, etc. I emailed FT, but have not had a response yet. I'm looking for a replacement. FT has one for $2400, but since they had more than a 100% mark up on the radiator, I'm looking for an alternative.
Call Stewart & Stevenson in Dallas, 214-631-5307 ^.^d
The one FT uses is a coaxial cooler. Transmission fluid goes through lots little tubes inside a bigger tube filled with engine coolant. Cross contamination is an expensive repair. I am not sure how an external transmission radiator cooler would work but let us know.
My external transmission cooler works exactly the same way (ref. My Allison is acting up). When it was installed they had to plumb the engine coolant through the transmission cooler.
Roland
I did find the manufacturer of the cooler and negotiated a price of $1415.00, a huge reduction from the FT quote. It should be here on Thursday. For those who have an interest or are researching the archives some years from now, it is a Rocor 3-1279B. I was able to get the model # from the FT parts counter.
I also ordered two seal kits for the fans from Turolla (221.20.034 OK) through their CA distributor ($122 each).
Lots of "coach bucks" this year.
Sven, you have not posted any pictures of your strip down of rad etc yet and I (we) are waiting for them!!
This is a major part of being a Forum member, keeping us up to date of changes. one other thing can you give me the link for the fan motor parts that you mention from Turolla. I tried to find it on their wesite but now were to put in those part #s. thanks
JohnH
John, I would love to post the photos and brag, but I have not been able to down load on to the site. I followed the directions and it asks for a URL and that is where I'm stuck. With regard to the Turolla parts, I had to make numerous phone calls (old school) to nail down the info. I didn't post the distributor's phone number since that would only benefit those within her district.
With radiator out of the way, I now have to disengage the fan motors from their rusted connections. I've drawn a diagram of where all the hoses go and will ID them with colored tape. I've also started putting penetrating oil on the rusty connections.
Two questions: 1-Should I keep the old fan blades or are there better ones out there. 2- Any good suggestions on loosening the connections?
Sven, for pictures scroll down in reply posting past the "post" box till you see the wording "add files by dragging & dropping (and highlighted a bit next is the wording-or select them) click on -select them and this connect you to your files so then go to wherever you have the pictures on your computer. You then select them and then click on OPEN. this sends them to forum download and once the + has changed to a - the next one will be uploaded. etc. After you have up to 10 pictures in a single posting you then click on the POST button as usual..
Try it as I am sure you will get the hang of it. or send them to my email address and I will post for you.
JohnH
To undo the connections get the 2 wrench sizes and align them so they can be squeezed together like a pair of scissors. That prevents harming the motor. They are AN fittings and normally come apart without galling.
Hopefully the photos came through.
Well done Sven you got them posted. Now how about posting all the ones of various stages of undoing bolts, anchors etc. How long did it take you to get it out once you started at it? Is the rad mainly held in place by those long threaded rods and side brackets. so mostly taking hoses off and the hydraulic motors and frame off the rear of rad. Nice to see a nice open side so now you can also work cleaning up the engine and bits hanging on that side that is now easy to work on. Post another bunch please.
Forgot to ask did you drop the rad partly then take off top bolts for pumps or do it before you undid the end mounts of rad?
JohnH
Good questions John; I may do a write up on MS Word with photos for the archives. I saw the photos on "Beamalarm" for the 2002 U320, but I had many specific questions that weren't addressed.
The radiator is held up by two large bolts, visible at the top corners and two diagonal rods attached to brackets (photo). On the back side are four hoses arranged vertically, visible when the engine cover is raised. All of these are fairly easy to remove, but I had to use two vise grips to keep the rods from spinning while removing the bolts. The most difficult aspect was removing fan brackets which are attached to the radiator on the inboard side at the top and the bottom (photo) of the fan shrouds. I tried doing this from under the bed, but found it impossible to get at the top bolts (two or three bolts on each bracket. I ended up lowering the radiator and allowing it to tilt forward so that I could get to bolts from the outside. Only with the radiator completely removed could I remove the brackets from the radiator itself. Motorcycle lifts from Harbor Freight did a great job slowly lowering the radiator and allowing me to pull it out. I could easily have done it with one lift. Because of the upper bolt brackets ("ears") I had to remove the engine batter compartment frame and door.
More: Transmission cooler, transmission data decal, fans, California Special (bonus) - my previous project.
I'm digging those American wheels... looks sharp
Thanks Sven, gives me a pretty good idea of what to expect when I have to do it. My parts/bolts etc are not as rusty as yours look and hose fittings are actually dirty but looking normal so should be easier to undo. With having the pit I am sure will make for a lot of easier working. I will take the side off but think I do not need to remove battery door and framing as I will be able to drop it down into pit if needed.
Keep the good work up.
JohnH
You did a great job and yes that is how MOT removed my fans by tilting it. I also had one done on my 270 and I helped the guy do that one when it was done but that was 14 years ago now. The transmission cooler is an easy replacement if you find the part.Good job in doing this yourself. I love the tractor. Mine is a bit bigger but they all work.
Nice! I would wager that the Mustang was a much more enjoyable project...at least everything on it was a more manageable size.
With the improvements that have been made with electric fans could the hydraulic
fans be replaced with electric ones, and be as efficient? If it worked the maintenance
cost should be way less than the hydraulic motors, pump, hoses, regulator, etc.
Carter-
In a word, NO. Takes too much HP to run them/provide sufficient CFM's of air flow to be done with electricity-- at least from a practical standpoint.
That's the summer project. Installing an aluminum radiator up front like Kent and Andy did only even larger and then getting rid of the entire hydraulic system. The plan is to install four electric fans on the rear radiator and two in the nose with a 300 amp alternator where the hydraulic motor was. The high amp alternators even come with a ribbed pulley and will use the stock tensioner. The ram air should really help once the coach is moving and the switchable nose fans for city driving. The only difficult thing may be moving enough coolant to the front and back through the small heater lines. For a bus style coach, the options are more limited. Example front radiator at: 4 Row All Aluminum Performance Radiator For 1985 - 97 Ford F-Series | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Row-All-Aluminum-Performance-Radiator-For-1985-97-Ford-F-Series-/181896241691?hash=item2a59dc621b:g:Gf8AAOSw~FNUY~FL&vxp=mtr)
On that pre-purchase checklist, checking the radiator condition has to be toward the top. Significant rust on the hyd motor, pumps, radiator brackets, corrosion on the radiator gives a pretty good clue what the bulkheads may be like.
In San Francisco, the driver of a Euro tour bus gave me a pretty good look at the mechanical end of the bus. It had an air cooled pancake diesel with a single large electric fan mounted on the body, above the engine. The engine was idling at the time with the AC compressor going but the fan was off. Convection cooled the engine at idle while the big fan was on a thermostatic switch. Rear wheels also turned about 20 degrees for pulling out of parking stops and the engine had modular connectors so it only took 20 minutes to remove it.
You won't have enough volume through heater hoses for the front radiator to do anything more than supplement the rear. If you don't get the same cfm with the electric fans that you have now you will run hotter. Check the HP needed for the electric to match the HP of the hydraulic motors.
Quite true. I don't expect to get the same CFM from the electric fans and expect the front radiator(s) to do much of the work. I have a lot of 3/4" L copper pipe and was thinking I could double up and bring two up and two back. Two pipes compared to one is only one fourth the friction loss for the same GPM. Copper pipe has a thin wall so I may be able to run still larger pipes to the front. A couple of 1 1/2" copper pipes should supply plenty of coolant. Doubling up on the front radiators would be a cheap and effective solution to the needlessly complex and expensive hydraulic system. I think the earlier rear radiator models with engine driven fan had a lot going for them with the big exception of engine access.
Bringing larger piping to the front has a couple of options. Up through the interior of the coach or under the floor. Under the floor on the driver's side has a clearance problem above the water tank. The rest is easy with the generator and storage compartment having no clearance problem.
My 4107 GM bus had a single mechanical fan from a PTO drawing air through a very large radiator. Never a problem with overheating.
Pierce
Bret convinced me that there isn't a viable alternative to these OE fans. Are there better blades out there that might offer less resistance or be more efficient?
The hydraulic system may being over criticized as I have only replaced the pump seal in the 1981 and the motor seal is still not leaking. On my current '99 I installed one seal kit and one seal only in the 2 motors. parts cost with shipping less than $150. It does take labor but so does your conversion. Maybe if you succeed you can compare alternator costs and all other expenses for the conversion and post how you like it.
No. You just have a big heat exchanger sitting there with no advantage to whether the coach is stationary or moving at 70 mph. It's a lose/lose situation. The hydraulic pump and motor(s) both lose efficiency so there is a cost paid here also.
VW, Porsche and others have successfully put a water cooled engine in the back with the radiator in the front. Doesn't take rocket science to figure out how to do it when designing a coach. Some buses have even put the radiator on the roof. Like I said above, my 4107 had a simple PTO driving a single fan on the rear/side radiator. I never got less than 10 mpg with it either.
Yes, the hydraulics can be overhauled and the $150 is nothing compared to the frustration of all the associated parts. Starting with Foretravel not listing the correct belt for the later U300s, not taking the time to correctly align the pulleys, all the related hydraulic hoses, hi/low speed switches and the time/expense and inconvenience to replace them on the road (and clean the rear plus toad), pulling the pump or motors off while by the side of the road in a no reception cell phone location.
Pierce
Just an update, I just completed a drive from Tucson to Deming NM. The coolant was running around 190 to 200 degrees on the up hills until I turned on the Hayden 1290 Auxilliary radiator I installed behind the grill in my U300. The coolant temps immediately dropped to the 170's in the same terrain and ambient temps. I think this proves that the flow of the coolant through the 3/4" radiator hose is more than adequate dramatically improve engine cooling. FWIW
kent
Did you install a fan on the aux radiator?
Bill
I did install a fan but have never used it. It is on a separate switch and my intent is to use it only when at slow urban speeds. I think overall it works just fine without an electric fan.
Another option, farm equipment that operates in dirty areas are being fitted with a hydraulic fan and controller that changes the pitch of the fan blades to alter flow. Currently they are more focused on completely reversing the pitch to blow dirt etc back out the rad core the way it came in. Varying the pitch could really increase the efficiency of the system allowing more air flow than the current fans at peak and yet infinite adjustment to airflow up to that point.
Just my opinion, but the often quoted 50 hp fan load is total BS. Somebody fat fingered a zero after the 5 while typing. I have run numerous fan simulations on the diameter of the fans installed in coaches any can't get much more than 5 hp at less than 130 dB of noise at a high density temperature of -20 F (this assumes that the fan is upstream of the radiator). To further reinforce this point is the belt that operates the fan or the hydraulic pump is probably maxed out at less than 5 hp.
The old car compressors used more than 5 HP the new ones 4 They are quite small compared to the hyd pumps.
The Cummins is gear driven
Automobile air conditioning - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_air_conditioning)
If someone knows the flow rate and the psi this will tell the answer
Hydraulic Pump Horsepower Calculator (http://www.calcunation.com/calculator/hydraulic-pump-horsepower.php)
I just checked what my Cat 977 pump drew and it was 87.51 HP 50 GPM @ 3000 psi
A Toyota RAV4 like ours has a 7 rib belt and uses 25 to 40 hp to run the tensioner, PS, AC, alternator and water pump. A new Mustang ups the total to 30 to 50 hp. Just AC requires 5 to 6 hp. This indicates the belts do have to be extremely tough. Our OEM Toyota belt went well over 100,000 miles before I replaced it.
When Foretravel went to the horizontal side radiator from the vertical side radiator, with two fans instead of one and a larger pump on the U300, they also went to an eight rib belt from the six (but forgot to put the change in any user information).
If you know the gallons per minute and the pressure required, fill in the blanks in the linked table: Hydraulic Pump Horsepower Calculator (http://www.calcunation.com/calculator/hydraulic-pump-horsepower.php)
Pierce
That's one very sick looking radiator with excessive corrosion for its age. Seen many radiators much older that looked three times better. Might want to check for stray voltages causing electrolysis. Not a electrical guru and can't help chase these demons but I have seen the similar cases in building HVAC systems, with the same premature destruction. Dissimilar metals in the radiator construction don't help.
5 ton ac unit uses approximately 5 hp would have to have a 14" diameter fan to deliver about 1600 cfm thru the tiny dash vents not happening. Most coaches appear to be slightly less than 3 hp to deliver about 34,000 btuh of dash air. PS doesn't use much on realitively straight roads. 200 Amp Alternator can maybe consume as much as 5 hp at full load. Water pump maybe 1 hp. 12 scfm air compressor for service brakes etc I am guessing at about 5 hp. Engine cooling fans at 5-7 hp worst cause scenario. Assumed hydraulic flows and pressures go out the window based on actual work done based on mass flow of the fan which I very highly doubt is is much over 5-7 hp. My best conservative estimate its never go over 20-30 hp at peak load. Correct me if anybody has other evidence. That's how we learn if I missed something.
After seeing it, I'm surprised that it cooled as well as it did; the only problem I encountered was on long steep grades. Considering the very poor air flow through it, I suspect that the fans created a vacuum resulting in them having to work harder. It would not surprise me to see better mileage after this.
I'm continuing to take photos as I dismantle the fan, etc. Is there any interest in them and if so, should I continue posting on this thread? My reason for the photos is to help in reassembly.
A buddy of mine with a '95 U320 visited 5 years ago and we pulled his radiator and had it rebuilt with a new core at a local shop. I would say it looked worse. There were some areas on the fan side where the fins were completely gone - just tubes. He was based in Missouri and had driven on salted roads - creates a perfect salt-fog chamber behind those rear dual tires. He didn't have any overheating or leaking issue either. In fact this was all triggered by my "taking a look underneath" when he got here. Best to do repairs proactively - on the road repairs are very costly and inconvenient.
It was a bear of a job. The rear tires were driven up on blocks and all I had at the time were some wood blocks and jacks. He insisted on not pulling the fiberglass siding so it had to drop and tilt so the bottom would come out first. Two of us lifting it onto the bed of the pickup was no fun either.
I could not imagine pulling the radiator, along with the CAC, without removing the fiberglass - and then lifting it into a truck bed! He had to be a REALLY good friend.
The more pictures the better.
YES, please!
One of the valuable functions of this Forum is to act as a archive - a place to store unique records for the benefit of both current, and future, coach owners. Big complicated projects like yours don't happen that often. If you document your efforts with lots of commentary and photos, you are helping all of us to understand what is involved, and how the problem could best be addressed should we ever be in the same situation.
It's a "pay it forward" thing...you benefit from the Forum, and then you post a thread like this, and in return provide knowledge to other members.
Sven, like I have PM'd you and written here on forum we NEED to see more pictures of each stage. As I have mentioned to you before I am considering doing this too as a precaution so although I have a fair idea of what happens (due to your previous info and pics) it is for others to know when they run into this job and posterity that we ask you to post every one you take please. It only takes afew minutes to do 10 at a time once a day but the information it gives will last many many years.
Thanks for what you have done so far, keep it up.
JohnH
and as a reminder you should coat all the steel parts with a Phosphoric acid wash as this will help restore the rusty parts and then paint with black enamel paint. You can buy it in gallon plastic containers at Lowes or Home Depot in paint section.
Growing up in California, I had no idea what road chemicals can do to a vehicle. Cars last forever, right? In Germany, my initial business was in used cars. I was astounded by the damage salt can do to a car and how quickly it acts. I was equally shocked with what Germans considered a "rust free" car. We had a year pass at the local car wash and every night on the way home, we stopped to get the car de-contaminated with a wash that included special jets for the undercarrige.
So, when shopping for a Foretravel, one of the new 12V electric screw guns is nice to have with you to pull the louvers off the front of the radiator. Two minutes later, you have the entire radiator to view without crawling underneath. Any kind of corrosion/erosion to the radiator means there is more to be found in fittings, electrical, etc, especially important in the bulkhead area. Not that you shouldn't check other places but a bad radiator should get you headed back to the airport. Easy to open the engine door and look at the hydraulic fittings. They should be clean and ready to worked on not rusty. All pushers will have some rust in the back but it should be light.
The rule for being a happy buyer/owner is no matter what you paid for that airline ticket, rental car, motel, don't let your optimism cloud your judgement. Unless it's pretty corrosion free, it's going to require more maintenance down the road. Rust and corrosion also mean more difficult maintenance when fittings don't want to come loose or the relay mounting screw is rusted in place, etc.
Even high resolution photos are almost always optimistic and take even the nicest owner's description with a grain of SALT.
Quoting John: Brushing light rust with phosphoric acid is a good way of prepping the surface for paint. Lots of brushing may be necessary. Self etching primer sticks really well if the surface is clean and won't chip off. More money than Krylon but it pays.
Pierce
Having been raised in Micronesia, I am very familiar with rust. In the 60's we didn't change the oil in our cars, since the body rotted well before the engine failed. I am using an angle grinder with 36 grit sanding pads to bring all the metal fan brackets down to bare metal. I then coat them with paintable Permatex rust treatment, a coat of red primer then Rustoleum satin black paint. The parts come out looking like new.
On my 2000, you cannot see the radiator from the side, since the CAC blocks the entire view until the fiberglass side is removed. On the inside, I was only able to see the fins with a mirror because of the shroud. Because of the visible rust on the radiator frame, I suspected I would have to replace the radiator at some point. Since the rust is on thick metal where there was no "rust through", I knew I could clean that up. When I made the purchase, it was at a relatively low price for a unique FT that met our needs; we knew that we would not find another like it.
Pierce,
Would't the copper pipe do heat extraction on the wat to the front and back, as well?
Carter-
Not sure you want to add heat to the wiring loom and to a lesser degree, the basements.
Carter,
Quite right. Some good in that and some bad, depending on the season. Running the copper through the interior would be a bad idea in summer. :D I did a heated floor but changed over to a direct vent diesel heater in the house so have plenty of 3/4" copper pipe. If I have room, I would like to go with a larger diameter pipe but once I see the clearance that I have, I can figure the friction loss compared to doubling up the 3/4" Two pipes of the same diameter will have only one fourth of the friction loss if pumping the same gallons per minute as a single pipe. Again, it's the water tank to floor clearance that is the stumbling block. The rest is easy. The existing hose goes to the water heater so driving supplies hot water. Hate to lose that but will see how easy it is.
Good flow is important but the VW Vanagon actually put a washer in the line to the front to restrict the flow and get a better heat exchange.
I do know that the electric fans won't move as much air through the main radiator so I'm not under any illusion there.
As far as the last comment goes, it's easy to just use a residential foam wrap on the copper in any problem area.
Pierce
Caterpillar has a interesting Rv power guide. At 1200 rpm fan speed they consume 14hp.
At 1800 rpm 50 hp. That's with the fan on high
Cat says they are a major power consumer.
Just reread the cat brochure but unsure how to link it.
"Understanding coach/Rv performance"
Absolutely!
The primary intent when we created this forum was to preserve knowledge so that others could find it in the future. Photos of the fan disassembly/service/reassembly are very much desired!
http://www.rvtechlibrary.com/engine/Cat_RV_Performance.pdf
I can disassemble anything.