Good morning. This is a terrific community and I look forward to being part of it. This is my first post although I've been reading the forum for about a month during our search and now in preparation for our PPI.
The unit we hope to purchase is an 03 U320T 4220 AGBS, Build 6199.
It has about 63,000 miles and 1,250 Hrs on the generator.
The coach belongs to good friends of my niece and her husband who vouch for the integrity of the seller. It is listed on RVTrader.com 2003 Foretravel U320 4220 PBLB, - - RVtrader.com (http://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2003-Foretravel-U320-4220-PBLB-120695869).
The current owner is the 2nd owner and has had the coach for about 2-1/2 years. Shortly after he purchased it he had FOT go through it to the tune of $14 CB. Included in that work (completed at 56,000 mi. and 750 Gen. Hrs.) was:
Engine fluids and filters
Generator fluids and filters
Tranny switch to Transynd with note to change again in 12k miles (68,000 mi)
Aquahot fuel filter and unit serviced
Awning repairs
Water pump replacement
Toilet leak repairs
Entry door lock repairs
Fuel tank sender R&R
Generator voltage regulator R&R
New front clearance lamps and lenses
Dash A/C repairs with install of new dash control unit / valve
Chassis lube, inspection of hoses, belts, etc.
3x,new starting batteries AGM PX31925C
3x,new house batteries GEL GF12 DF8D
Air compressor pop-off valve R&R
Apply roof sealant
New radio with Bluetooth, Sirius, etc.
All new Michelins in 2015.
Fluids and filters on the engine and generator were done again in 2016 but the NAPA receipts do not show the mileage or hours.
The seller has agreed to deduct the costs of any needed repairs from the purchase price. Brett Wolfe helped me find a qualified inspector and I have a PPI scheduled for Monday in Nac.
QUESTIONS:
I've read a number of the PPI checklists on the forum but would also love to have input on any particular areas or trouble spots to which I should pay attention. As I've been studying the forum I've made a few notes and the two items that keep popping up to my novice eyes are the bulkheads and the airbags. One would hope that FOT checked out both in 2015 but who knows? I've no idea if the airbags are the originals.
Another question is the factory-installed Silverleaf VMS 400 CL unit. Are there some diagnostics I can run on the VMS itself to make sure it is connected and fully operational? Will the VMS be helpful in diagnosing any possible issues with the engine, tranny, etc?
I've attached 2 files: the original "window sticker" and the build sheet showing the installed equipment.
Thanks in advance for your patience with such a long post and for your help!
Mark
Mark,
Congratulations on finding such a great looking coach. I hope the PPI proves all
of your hopes correct. I like seeing someone taking such a thorough attitude about
the purchase. Too many of us get caught up in euphoria of a new to us coach based
on the exterior. It is the interior workings of a coach and not the exterior paint that makes
a good coach. If this is the coach I hope it brings many happy miles and smiles for you.
Carter-
Welcome, and what a nice coach.
I'm not familiar with the SilverLeaf system so this may be a moot point, but see if the inspector has the tools to read the engine hours off the main engine, and compare that with the engine hour readings on the instrument cluster. Sometimes the speedometer/odometers go out and get changed without the mileage being set on the new ones. Verifying engine hours and multiplying by 50, 55, 60, 65 will give you a rough idea of the "miles" (hours includes idle time) on the engine and allow you to see if the stated miles on the current speedometer/odometer makes sense. If it's way off then either the speedometer/odometer has been changed, or previous owners idled the engine for a long time. In which case doing your initial round of service based upon hours may be better that service based upon miles. Because of weight and age these rigs are often exempt from mileage disclosure on vehicle registration.
See if the inspector has the tools to do a pressure test of the main engine radiator and the generator radiator. Most likely they are good, but it's a good time to check and know for sure what you are starting with.
Chris
Thanks, Carter! I appreciate the good wishes. Knowing the seller through family helps take some of the worry out of the deal, but we will see what the PPI reveals!
Mark
Chris,
All great ideas and added to my list of things to check!
Thanks,
Mark
Is the misalignment of the generator cover to the lower front cap section cause for concern?
You need to look at the structure and struts behind the door itself. If a strut failed in the past or the mounting bent (that cover is HEAVY and if the struts failed it might cause something to bend if it came crashing down), it could explain what you see.
It should be repairable if that's all it is.
I would say so.! Prior work on Genny track..??
MHO
H
Don't assume - it's highly doubtful unless they were specifically asked to check. And even if they did, things can change - get a fresh opinion from a reliable source.
Airbags are most likely original. We replaced tag and front on our 2003 in 2014 - tags ended up having pretty big leaks, fronts were heavily checked. Ride improved. We had drive replaced in 2015.
Saddlesore had all his replaced on his 2002 in Nac this year. Depending on storage, this coach may be due. It might be difficult to see if the tag bags are leaking since they are at an angle. Best bet is to budget for it.
Michelle,
Will do! Added both to the list.
Mark
Another thought, Mark. Shocks are probably original, too, if there isn't any record of them being replaced. If they are orange/red, they are Koni adjustables. They're OK, but many of us swapped out for the Koni FSDs and it really improved the ride. These will be gold colored shocks. A highly recommended upgrade to add to your plan.
Since we bought our 2003 U320 last year I have had to replace the radiator and have the rear bulkhead rebuilt along with many small items that I have fixed myself. Our coach's PO had the Aqua Hot were replaced a few years ago along with the Dometic refer's cooling unit.So I would advise paying special attention to the items I have listed.
Also, I would advise that the inspector be very careful checking for air leaks. The slide room air bladders are known to fail and are pretty expensive to replace. Also make sure the HWH air leveling system is working as designed.
Unless it has been upgraded be aware that the OEM satellite system (TracStar?) Is obsolete,
Along with all of the items mentioned in the previous posts I think you will have a good idea of what to look for.
We budgeted $10K for repairs and burned through that in the first year. These are great coaches but at 14 years of age they will need some love. We have not regretted any of the $$$ we have spent so far.
I hope to see you in your new to you Foretravel soon!
Steve and Sandy,
Just added radiator, rear bulkhead, Aqua Hot, refer's cooling unit, general air leaks, slide room air bladders and HWH air leveling system to the list. Like you I'm hoping to do many of the small to medium repairs myself both to lower costs and because I enjoy the hands on time.
For many years I was a member of a forum and interest group not unlike this one except we were interested in maintaining and driving older Mercedes automobile. I love the camaraderie and cordiality I see here.
Thanks for the heads up and look forward to meeting y'all too!
Mark
2003 slide bladders - look for the flap/guide to be present and correct in each slide per Dan's post "Normal service" and Slide Bladder replacement, Old Town MotorCoach Nac (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30356.msg262432#msg262432)
Thanks, Michelle! bladder flap/guides added to the list.
Y'all's knowledge of these coaches is just amazing.
Mark
Mark, there is a self-PDI checklist on the Forum, easy search to find it. May help. I would hire an inspection though if it were me.
I mention two technical things that I am not sure others have yet noted.....and would pay particular attention to anything Michelle tells you about a 2003. Generally owners of the model coach you are considering are among the most knowledgable and in this case she and Steve are at the top. Wish you could see the one they sold!
That said, the bulkheads should be checked. It is not a simple visual inspection nor one of checking bolt torque. The prior owner can easily and truthfully think they are fine and just not know. I have seen this be a problem at least up to the 2004 model and even one 2005 but that one was a strange situation.
Secondly, check the end caps. There can be a factory record if those were repaired back at the factory, or they may have no problem. You may see this from the side, up high, but good to get up on top.
Like everyone, we all wish you well. But avoiding expensive surprises now can make a more pleasant purchase. Neither of the two items I noted would be a deal killer, but the expenses should be known if repairs needed.
X2 regarding what Mike said about hiring an inspector! I regret that I did not take the time and spend a +/- $1000.00 to have an expert look at our coach before we pulled the trigger. Sadly, I didn't know what I didn't know😯
Probably would have still bought the coach we did, but I would have been in a much better bargaining position with a detailed inspection report in hand. I'm pretty confident that you will recoup the inspection cost if only by having peace of mind.
Steve
Mike -- thanks for the input. I'll do a search on the endcaps to learn more about the issues and in the meantime have added endcaps and made sure the bulkheads are on my list of items to have checked during the PPI.
Mark
Steve and Sandy,
Great advice on hiring an inspector! We're meeting the current owners in Nac on Monday to have the PPI done.
Thanks,
Mark
Mark if need inspector in Nac send me pm with phone number. There is a process here, i can explain or try get Brett
With regard to alignment on the generator door, ask if they hit a deer and had the door replaced. It looks to be a brighter white than the rest of the front (per the picture). It should be correctable. Ours is not aligned properly right now either. If I cannot figure it out I may end up at Extreme next time I am down that way. The body shop in northern Indiana that installed the new door was not able to align it properly.
Mike - he already has an inspector through Brett. See the first post.
Good advice--With this age, cap seals can be bad. Along with roof seam seals, my 01 bought in Dec and delivered to Az just discovered skin seals are all bad. Arrived in very wet N/W 2 weeks ago and discovered drip from rear heat pump. This morning discovered water around rear compartment from cap seals separating and down most of the roof cap. Appears that a full cap seal project is needed, hopefully not too much water has soaked in.
Good luck with your new beauty. Our previous unit was a 96 Foretravel, 4 years with no issues like any of these you are inspecting. This one is becoming a nightmare range of issues on an otherwise well kept 1 owner unit.
Ed,
I'll do that. I hadn't noticed that the color was off. They live in the Texas hill country and deer are very plentiful there.
Thanks,
Mark
Well, today is the day! I'm heading out to see the coach for the first time. The owners have graciously offered to let me stay overnight in it for the next 48 hours prior to our drive to Nac for the PPI. I found some great self-PPI resources on the forum that I'll use to go over systems during the next 2 days. Then we will see what the professional finds.
Thanks for taking time (in this thread and over on a current bulkhead inspection / repair thread started by Mike) to help this newbie understand some of the issues surrounding bulkheads. I didn't realize at first that the bulkhead is the center component of the sandwich. I kept asking if I should paint it because I imagined that it was an exposed structural element!
I can't thank all of you enough for your patience, kindness and suggestions.
Thanks,
Mark
Good luck today!
Very nice coach. What is included in "We spent an additional $14,000 after purchasing the coach for a complete service with a Foretravel dealer in Texas who gave the coach a good report. "
Jim,
See Mark's first post. He lists everything.
:-[ I need to read the posts more carefully. Little things add up fast.
Good pointing to the last service list - I hadn't read through it that carefully, either! If no record of it since that service in 2015, the coach is due for an air dryer service (or better yet replace with a DA33100X Haldex-done reman from NAPA so you start with a known-good set of internals).
(do a forum search for air dryer powder and you'll see why ;) )
I'm here in the coach.
There's a receipt from NAPA dated Jan 2016 that includes:
-- Qty-2 of NAPA 109994K Air Brake Dryer Repair Kits - H/D Truck Bendix ADSP Desiccant Cartridge - New HALDEX
-- Oil
-- Oil, air, coolant and fuel filters
No mileage on the receipt but it make that service 15 months ago.
-------------------
So far the coach looks nice. Going through it a little at a time. I'm excited and a little nervous!
Inside maybe a 7-1/2 to 8
Outside about the same. Paint is beautiful. To my newbie eyes, no indications of delamination.
Roof very crisp and clean. Has some kind of grippy stuff mixed in with the roof coating that FOT applied.
New Michelins look good
Cummins starts easily and runs smoothly
Minor stuff not working -- mirror turn signal out, one marker light has only one bulb working instead of 2, left headlight low beam inoperative, one of 2 radio speakers over couch out. Little stuff like that.
All 3 AC's work in cooling and heat pump mode. Generator starting and running smoothly.
Bigger stuff not working:
-- Aquahot --- works on on 110VAC but not on diesel.
-- One of the air tank drain valves behind the driver side front wheel had maybe a quart or 2 of water in it. It was the valve closest to the outside edge of the coach. The other 2 and the drain at the rear tire were pretty normal -- just a little mist.
-- Propane tank is empty. Dometic refrigerator not cooling on auto setting with the generator running. Check light is on.Slides work smoothly.
-- The Silverleaf screen with the rotary knob and the 10 buttons is completely dead. Fuse?
More to come...
Mark
Fridge will not cool down that fast to tell if it is working or not... unless light is off but should go into (limp mode?) it will blink I believe if there is a problem.. it will take hours for the fridge to cool.. like overnight or 8 hrs...
any pics? Or link of which you are looking at? Maybe I missed it?
Nvm I see this is page 2 and missed the 1st page with the link.
AquaHot is OK. Newbie false alarm.
Thanks!
There should not have been water in the air tanks.
If now switch for the reel it might need a quick pull and let go.. might not be electric .. if it is electric there should be a switch right there in the electric bay
Looking at the pic for the reel.. it looks electric.. should be a button in there to retract
The drain valve with the water coming out for the air tank is for the tank for the hwh compressor, there is no dryer on it so will need to be drained frequently also the switch for the electric cord should be beside the switch for the water pump and the water fill in the utility bay.
Thanks friends. Found that switch and got the shore power reeled up.
Found a logbook with every oil change, air & fuel filters, genny service etc. Looks super good. Oil & filters changed every 3k to 5k. Genny serviced at each 250hr interval.
Coach is from Las Vegas -- a dry desert coach.
As for your fridge... It looks like a Dometic 1492.... ours was erratic on cooling evenly with the propane side "dropping out" when traveling in the mountains.. just did swap it out for a Samsung domestic @ MOT...... my ice cream sammiches are now well and fully FROZE!
bought the Samsung fridge @ Sears & MOT did a really good job with the woodwork filling the gaps & modifying the lower cupboard.
Will be in Nac for the next 3 weeks.( @ Old town & 2 weeks @ Xtreme) stop by if you want.
Good morning. Should the small struts on the overhead cabinet doors (throughout the coach) be able to hold the cabinet doors in the open position? None of these do so. When I open each cabinet door it falls back to the almost fully closed position.
Yes.
They are about $9 apiece at FOT parts. (MOT might have them, too) The brand is Suspa. The price is competitive with cheap knockoffs and the cheap ones can cause the mounts to pull out of the cabinet box.
They do wear out (there was a recent discussion about mounting them so the rod was low and the cylinder high to keep the seal from drying out).
Silverleaf is up and running. History available back to 2012.
Speedo ODO Mileage: 62,810
Silverleaf Stats:
Mileage: 62,731
Tot Hrs: 1405
Avg Speed: 45 MPH
Tot Fuel: 9302
Net MPG: 6.7
Only engine diagnostic of any concern is the engine coolant reported as 220F @1800 RPM once a few years back.
In the basement compartment containing the aux. compressor, inverter, etc. there are two items labeled PIAB. While they are obviously part of the compressed air system, I've searched and haven't found their function. The unit on the right of the first photo (closest to the centerline of the coach) has a significant air leak in the valve shown in photo 2.
What does these PIAB units do?
Will this leak impact driving safety? Supposed to drive to Nac tomorrow for the PPI.
Thanks,
Mark
Those are for the bladders.. the valve shuts off the air to the bladders.. swap out, if the valve is leaking. Strut part# off mine is c16-21696 ..I had one sitting on my desk that I replaced.. cheap online also
Mark,
Those valves have 3 O rings on the stem. It is a simple process of just pulling the stem, installing new O rings, and putting the stem back into the valve body. The engine driven air compressor should be able to keep up with no problem. That is a leak that will cause the little 12VDC air compressor to overwork and burn it up so the leak needs to be fixed.
Pamela & Mike
David -- Indeed the fridge did cool down overnight and there's ice in the freezer!
David, thanks for the info on air leak and the struts.
Mike, do you know if the o-rings are common NAPA items or special order from the manufacturer?
Thanks,
Mark
Mark,
They do have OEM rebuild kits that have the O rings and a little tube of silicone lube, but they are just a standard size that can be purchased most anywhere that has O rings like any auto parts store, Ace hardware, or even a hydraulic store. I have replaced several for various members as this is a common problem.
Pamela & Mike
That air leak is probably the reason for the amount of water you got out of the drain valve for the air tank
Hi friends. Here's a quick update on the PPI. We were supposed to have the PPI yesterday but we had to reschedule for later today because we were running late getting to Nac. yesterday. Here are the items I found in the last 2 days of poking, prodding and driving:
Aqua Hot Zone 3 No heat
Antenna, CB - broken
Batteries, coach
Batteries, starting
Dash Air Conditioner not cooling properly
Brake, parking brake not holding coach when tranny in D or R
HWH bladder manifold valve leak
Window blind repair, passenger side living room
Polarity panel in kitchen inoperative
Potty fan exterior cover missing
Satellite -- obsolete?
Strut, bed platform, disconnected
Struts, cabinet door, worn out
Wiper blades, replace
Silverleaf weather station inoperative
Surround sound - Bose no sound
Faucet leak, kitchen
More to come!
Mark
My coach had the issue when the brake was engaged it would still lurch forward. Found the rear seal was leaking around the brake and everything was covered in grease.. the rotor was sheared all the way around the hub area and was not working at all.. Replaced the seal and new rear brakes and back to holding and stopping as needed.
Other than that.. good luck.. Kinda exciting for us to be involved with your walk through. Thanks for posting
No "gulps"from the peanut gallery, does not mean the coach is junk, it's just what you need to plan for with a older coach. We used to think, that setting aside 10CBs would work for "incidentals". In a conversation with a forum member the other day, we both agreed, with the labor and parts costs these days, 20CBs would be more "to the times." Hang in here! ^.^d
No surprises there Mark and no big, giant ticket items either. Tires and batteries are negotiating points. If the seller wants top dollar they should be new or the price reduced to cover them. AH issue is not a big one. HWH leak is not big. Dash AC might be some work. The rest of it is like normal stuff. How bad do you want to use your CB? Bose could be simple wiring. TV stuff you will probably want state of the art.
If the guts are good ... make a fair offer for both of you.
So all of the list aside, does it just grab you and the DW? Are the colors good? does it just say home? You have to want it too.
Pretty standard FT list of items to touch up right there. Dash A/C is your wild card. Could be $400 to fix, or it could go out a few weeks after every fix for the next half decade and cost $7000 for a non-working unit (as it did for the POs of our coach).
However, there is an easy workaround for that expense. If the temperature is too hot for windows-open driving to keep us cool, we just fire up the generator while driving and turn on the roof A/C units. Works almost as well, and I'll gladly pay for the extra 10 gallons of diesel a year over trying to fix what some might consider a redundant system (and one that seems to have more frequent issues than almost all other coach systems, at that).
Add in fuel lines and examine the air bags closely.
At 100k miles the valves and injectors need adjusting.
Agree. The other benefit of using the coach roof A/C, especially in the mountains, is you are not using any precious engine power to keep cool.
X2....I've had dash air "issues" on all of our coaches. My files show this one has been gone through, but I don't show a $ amount or what was done. Suffice to say, I am "gun shy" about running it, which is stupid, but the above mentioned suggestions are what I do.
I looked over the airbags. To my novice eye, they appear checked, but we shall see what the inspector says!
Mark
Yeah, I've driven old Mercedes in the 15-20 year age range and it was always challenging to keep old AC's cooling. I'm not willing to chase this too hard. Especially with 3 great roof top AC's.
Mark
Agreed. I was wondering what the hourly diesel consumption is under load.
Roger,
It does say home! What's more, the current owner is agreeable to deducting the estimated cost of repairs from the purchase price. Tires are 2 years old, Michelins. Agreed on the audio video equipment plus that's what I do for a living so no sweat.
Mark
Drove the coach from west TX to east TX yesterday. Today the brakes seem super solid. Almost as though exercising them and/or getting the surface rust off the rotors helped? No creeping today at all when the parking brake is engaged and tranny is in gear.
Thanks for the encouragement. Am I posting too much? If yes I can tone it down. Just excited.
Your coach is newer than mine, but on ours the main thermostat controls 2 zones and a separate thermostat located in the bathroom controls the 3rd zone.
The one we're looking at has one thermostat above the driver's left shoulder that has temp sensors in the front, mid-coach, and in the rear.
In mode setting are you seeing 3 zones?
Look for white thermostat in the bathroom for the bathroom zone. It looks like a furnace thermostat, not the Dometic multi-button. There will be a switch on top to turn it on (push to left for on, click to right for off), and another slider on the bottom for the temperature.
Yes, sir! 3 zones. Able to control all three from the the one multi-zone thermostat.
No thermostat seen in the bath area.
Here's a pic of the thermostat. It's a Dometic Duo-Therm. In the bottom of the LCD display you can see the 3 zone indicators.
Neat - our 40 footer had a separate bath thermostat (because there were only 2 roof units, so no "zone 3" for A/C or heat pump)
When you say the the AquaHot doesn't work on zone 3, do the bath area blowers come on but no heat comes out, or do the blowers not come on at all?
Zone 1 = Dash, LR, Kitchen
Zone 2 = Bathroom
Zone 3 = Bedroom.
When the thermostat is calling for heat in zone 3 the fan in the bedroom comes on but the air never gets warm. I'm guessing either zone 3's solenoid-operated valve or circulation pump may be the culprit. But that's just head knowledge from reading the manuals and the forum, no actual experience yet.
BTW we're in the middle of the PPI.
Mark
Mark,
First off there are many more used coaches out here that the dash air does not work on than do.
When a coach owner gets faced by too many items to repair, that they have lived with or were not
aware of they can get aggravated and decide to just not sell the coach and then look for another
buyer that is less picky on their coach. Everyone has a figure that they have to have out of their MH
to sell it. When that number is chopped lower and lower it can make them decide to keep it.
Remember if there were major problems they would probably have repaired it, as they did put
on new tires. This is a used coach and a buyer has to understand that not everything is going
to be perfect. Just do not want you miss getting a good coach.
Carter-
Or could just be "air bound" and needs vented.
The check valve for zone 3 may also be stuck closed. A gentle tap on the valve body may get the flapper loose.
Pamela & Mike
Carter, -- that's good advice.
Thanks!
The inspector tapped but no joy. No biggie, we will figure it out.
Mark
This will be the next try.
But...... only after I get it home. Just bought the unit! The seller was good to his word and we negotiated a price with which we're both happy. I made a 2 new friends in the process, the owner and his friend who helped him sell it.
And then there's all of y'all. Thanks for letting me share this experience and for all your helpful and timely suggestions. Gonna get a few hours sleep and start driving east tomorrow.
BTW, had to replace the 3 engine batteries today. MOT was great. Worked me in even though they were swamped.
Note new signature below.
Mark
Sounds like your inspector has picked up some Rudy knowledge, a good thing for you.
Congrats, hope things stabilize on your trip home, and they may well with use and grade changes, if there is air in in your system.
Mark, congratulations!
I hope your drive home is uneventful and no gremlins show their ugly heads.
Or you could just leave your new coach at MOT along with a blank check and wait for them to let you know when everything is fixedâș
Steve
To check if it is a circulation pump issue do a "grounding wire check" on Aquahot for that circuit. Maybe pump is shot . The new style pumps that are replacing the old ones are in my mind useless and do not pump the same volume as old ones. I replaced 2 of them on friends CC while in Mexico visiting and proved they do not circulate as good as old ones. A Hot tech said should be same. The old pumps had disintegrated with cooling fluid and I feel that is why they changed makes. Also check valve for that circuit may be not holding. All simple to check and replace. It was necessary for us to remove radiator units from the CC and flush out lines as crap was in system. Not an easy job as I had to dismantle the passenger side dash to get to one of them. Learnt quite a bit though.
JohnH