Foretravel Owners' Forum

Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Jimmyjnr on May 18, 2017, 11:37:35 pm

Title: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 18, 2017, 11:37:35 pm
Headed south from Vegas toward Palm Springs, happy we have house under contract and hitting the open road .
Then I noticed volt meter hovering around 11v , happiness meter also started to read low !!
Pulled into Barstow O'rielys, disconnected batteries and used borrowed tool to confirm batteries undercharged but ok , reconnected and tested with engine running, meter suggests voltage regulator on alternator defective.
Hopefully use generator whilst driving and find shop that can rebuild it .
The day started so well!
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: craneman on May 18, 2017, 11:45:09 pm
You have to use the boost switch to charge the coach batteries with the generator.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Tom Lang on May 19, 2017, 12:24:54 am
Mine needed rebuilding a year or so back, been fine ever since.  My mechanic, Mitch of Mitch's Automotive in Irwindale, can tell you who did the work. 
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: John Haygarth on May 19, 2017, 12:40:23 am
 Jimmy, did you check for a possible broken wire  (sense wire). I had that problem couple of years ago showing no charge and that wire had corroded and broken. Added new piece and then every thing was working and still is.
JohnH
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 09:48:24 am
Tried all the connections, to be honest is was a little hot to get my head to back of alternator, but hopefully when we stop tonight I can pull it out and find a shop
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 10:13:25 am
Would prefer to drive to a recommended shop and pull the alternator on site but family commitments have us in cathedral city tonight.
Did find a shop called Hernandez no 2 !!
Sounds like a fast food joint , anyway will cycle to his shop and make a descision
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 10:17:28 am
Spoke to foretravel and they tell me it's a leece Neville 2824J  160A special build for foretravel, he couldn't say why it was special build which had me a little concerned about a rebuild!
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Bill Willett on May 19, 2017, 10:38:42 am
It also fits Daimler Trucks North America, per the Prestolite cross reference

Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Racedad on May 19, 2017, 10:39:50 am
Any good automotive electrical repair shop should be able to overhaul or repair the alternator. It is nothing special. I had mine overhauled in Denver two weeks ago. New bearings, brushes and one diode. $92 and one day. Good luck, don't panic about "special" alternator.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on May 19, 2017, 10:44:50 am
Spoke to foretravel and they tell me it's a leece Neville 2824J  160A special build for foretravel, he couldn't say why it was special build which had me a little concerned about a rebuild!
No need to be concerned - probably just means it is a "DUVAC" model, which in turn means it has a "remote sense" terminal.  If you get it rebuilt, tell the shop you want it back EXACTLY like they get it (except for correcting the problem).  No snipping "extra" wires, no modifying terminals, no wiring changes whatsoever.

Tell them it goes on a motorhome with dual battery systems, and diode battery isolator.  If they don't understand, try another shop.

Alternators #270-2824L | LEECE NEVILLE 160A 12V IRIF J180 DUVAC | Robert's & Son (https://www.therobson.com/product/270-2824L/&q=2824LC)

When you remove the alternator, make careful note of how the wires are attached on the back.  Label them so you will replace them correctly.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 11:10:23 am
Noticed all the links on internet take me to a 2824L  which looks correct  and has same spec ??
Re manufactured is about $300 also amazon has new for $300 including 2 day shipping.
Any thoughts
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: wolfe10 on May 19, 2017, 11:12:57 am
Before even considering removing the alternator, pop the bed and carefully check connections.  The small-gauge sense wire is particularly at risk.  If in doubt, run a jumper from the isolator terminal (either outer one will do for this test) and the sense terminal of the alternator.  Start engine and run at 1000 RPM.  See if that "fixes" it.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: John Haygarth on May 19, 2017, 11:19:26 am
As Brett has now mentioned  (as I did in #3 post) check that the sense wire IS doing what it is supposed to do first. You mention that all connections are good but that sounds like you only checked the Alt end of things. There is another end to that wire and it should be followed and or check to see if there is 12v+ at that sense wire all the time ign is on. Better to know for sure before (as Brett alluded to) that at least that part is correct.
JohnH
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: wolfe10 on May 19, 2017, 11:24:00 am
Sense wire should have chassis battery voltage at the alternator sense terminal ALL THE TIME (ignition on or off). Remember, very large gauge wire from chassis battery to chassis battery terminal of the battery isolator.  And solid wire (the sense wire) from that lug to the alternator.  And, yes, the sense wire could be connected to any location "downstream"/toward battery of the chassis battery terminal of the isolator.

If it also has an ignition hot terminal (the 4th wire), that one is hot only with the ignition on.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 11:25:26 am
Thanks for guidance, currently parked in Walmart , will lift bed and do a visual , if that reveals nothing will get to campground investigate further.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on May 19, 2017, 01:17:57 pm
My alternator was erratic a several years ago, even though the connections (including the sense wire) looked fine.
The connecting small bolt and nut for the sense wire had corroded, so well it looked ok, it was not actually making electrical contact.
Removing the sense wire was not easy because the nut was frozen to the bolt and the bolt head is held by a plastic housing which is very easy to strip. I used penetrating oil then held the bolt from turning with vice grips while I worked the nut off. I then had to cut off the damaged end of the bolt before completely removing the nut. 
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Caflashbob on May 19, 2017, 01:33:44 pm
Dan at Lewco in Costa Mesa, ca successfully rebuilt my stock alternator.

One diode bad and the bearings.

High volume boat and Rv guy.  Thirty years.

Neatest old Bakelite test machine. Made in the thirtys in chicago

Mounts the alternator and tests it under loads.

Tested it this week by running the convection oven driving down the road on inverter power. Plus the refer compressor motor and the Dometic chest refer under the coach.

Went to 13.1 volts at times. 

Obviously a wiring issue would be easier to fix.




Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 04:36:58 pm
Just spoke to knowledgeable guy that builds and sells new alternators , mentioned common problem was high resistance connection on small sense wire or ignition hot wire , corrosion at point of crimp cause heat and resulting problem with voltage regulator.
Super nice guy that knows his product.
New alternator fitted with correct pulley and two day shipping $317 .
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Michelle on May 19, 2017, 04:42:05 pm
New alternator fitted with correct pulley and two day shipping $317 .

Assuming all is correct, in 2014 we paid 2X that at FOT not including tax and no shipping involved.  So you saved yourself at least $300 and can go have a nice dinner  ^.^d
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: wolfe10 on May 19, 2017, 04:54:58 pm
Again, I would not ASSUME that the alternator is faulty. Verify the inexpensive/easy stuff is absolutely correct first.

As posted, I would start with a jumper wire from sense terminal of alternator to the chassis battery lug of the battery isolator.  Can be small gauge wire, it is not carrying many amps.

Or, if you have a voltmeter:
With engine off/ignition off: battery voltage at sense terminal of alternator.
If you have an ign terminal on the alternator, verify 12+ VDC there with ignition on.

Start engine and run at 1000 RPM.  What is reading at center lug of battery isolator/B+ terminal of the alternator (should be the same, as large-gauge wire connects them.

After these easy tests, if the alternator flunks, THEN pull it and have it rebuilt/replace it. As mentioned, make sure the new one has the same number of connections.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Tim on May 19, 2017, 05:24:30 pm
Agree with Brett.
I made my own DUVAC model by buying a $300 rebuilt NAPA alternator of the same physical specs, removed the sense ring terminal and butt spliced it to the sense wire at the alternator. It's been working fine for 7 months.

FYI: Don't let anyone wire up any of the three terminals on the top of the alternator (which someone may tell you is the proper truck alternator), like they did on mine. These three terminals are AC (Alternating Current) output and will blow a breaker in the sense/charging circuit.

Guess you can charge the engine battery with both the generator and boost switch on until you get this fixed.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 06:25:10 pm
Wolf
Thanks for that guide , will go through the process over weekend, decided to order alternator as a last resort as we have to leave here Tuesday night .
My thinking was that if it turns out to be something simple ,great , if not , then I have spare alternator On hand  ready to fit Tuesday morning.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Johnstons on May 19, 2017, 07:24:50 pm
Napa can order the correct Wilson reman if you need it.  I had a problem with the relay that fed the exciter wire. 

Lots of posts to say don't put anything else on it but what came on it.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 19, 2017, 07:37:52 pm
Here is a JPG of where the wires go out the back of the alternator and how they connect to the isolator.

On the isolator, the terminals from left to right are Battery 1, Alternator, Battery 2, Ignition

Note: the isolators with 4 terminals are for use with alternators with an internal regulator.

Pierce
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 19, 2017, 09:12:41 pm
Thanks pierce that I can understand
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 19, 2017, 09:22:29 pm
Jimmy,

Unless someone changed out your alternator before now your OEM has 4 wires that come off the back not 3 like the one Pierce has posted.

Pamela & Mike
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Michelle on May 19, 2017, 09:35:19 pm
Jimmy,

Unless someone changed out your alternator before now your OEM has 4 wires that come off the back not 3 like the one Pierce has posted.

Pamela & Mike

2003 U320 version (hopefully same as U295)



Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 19, 2017, 09:52:10 pm
That print should be how Jimmy's was wired OEM.

Mike

Thanks Michelle, I couldn't do the magic like you.

Pamela
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 19, 2017, 10:00:58 pm
The JPG I posted is from the Foretravel U300 schematic but DOES differ from the alternator we have on our coach.

I am posting the Beamalarm Foretravel explanation of the alternator here: Foretravel Alternators and Isolated Battery Charging (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/foretravel_alternators_and_isolated_battery_charging.html)

Here is a Prestolite/Leece Neville tech letter on how to modify a Prestolite/Leece Neville alternator to work as a Duvac alternator: Prestolite - Leece Neville (http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_support/duvac.php)

Below is a photo of the rear of our U300's Leece Neville Duvac alternator. The big red cable on the left is the ground as marked on the alternator. The smaller cable with black wrap marked "to #1 term of Duvac" goes to directly to the engine battery post on the isolator.

Sorry for the confusion. The Foretravel schematic B-2035 should be changed at the top right corner to reflect the Duvac alternator wiring if your alternator is as in the photo.

Pierce
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Michelle on May 20, 2017, 07:42:56 am
The JPG I posted is from the Foretravel U300 schematic but DOES differ from the alternator we have on our coach.

Yes.  The topic is regarding the one in a 2003 U295 though, so we don't want to confuse the OP who's asking the questions  :)
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 20, 2017, 10:18:18 am
Yes.  The topic is regarding the one in a 2003 U295 though, so we don't want to confuse the OP who's asking the questions  :)
Michelle, quite correct about my original schematic post. The photo I posted should be the same Duvac alternator as the 2003 so they must have started installing them much earlier than that as ours looks OEM. It seem the factory schematics may differ in certain areas from what was actually wired.

Nice to have people looking over your shoulder. ^.^d

Pierce
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 22, 2017, 05:07:17 pm
Removed alternator this morning, tested sense wire 11v  then ignition switch wire 11v , volt meter is old cheap back up meter ( quality meter MIA ) and couldn't find decent earth so going to assume the alternator is at fault hopefully it should arrive Tuesday.
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 22, 2017, 08:35:19 pm
Spoke to office at CG about changing site to hopefully get some shade 110f today, packed up then remembered I had removed the alternator!!!!!
No option but to refit the defective unit just to move site .
Now that I have showered and have a cocktail in hand I can laugh and convince myself that a practice refit was a good thing .
Title: Re: Alternator trouble
Post by: Jimmyjnr on May 24, 2017, 07:14:10 pm
New alternator arrived today, well protected in double box with packing.
Complete with new pully easy install and charging batteries.
Great service and product from a knowledgeable guy ( unusual and refreshing)
Now cocktails !!
Thanks to everyone for help and guidance