Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: dke1955 on May 21, 2017, 07:27:55 pm
Title: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: dke1955 on May 21, 2017, 07:27:55 pm
Having read the post pasted below by Mr. Wolfe in a topic re. oil overfill I have been anxious to determine if my dipstick reads correctly or not: Mr. Wolfe wrote:
CALIBRATING THE ENGINE OIL DIP STICK
We continue to see questions about oil "consumption" and oil on radiators and toads on the FMCA Forum and other RV websites. It seems to be universal across all brands of diesel engines.
THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE IS AN OVERFILLED CRANKCASE. CALIBRATING THE ENGINE OIL DIP STICK TO ENSURE THE CORRECT OIL LEVEL IN THE PAN "FIXES" OVER 90% OF THESE PROBLEMS.
If you "think" your engine has an oil consumption problem, you are seeing oil mist on your toad or you just want to verify that yours is correct; you need to verify that you are using the correct amount of oil. Note: the quantities listed INCLUDE the oil filter and is the total amount of oil you put in when changing oil and filter.
Now, CALIBRATE THE DIP STICK. Since the same engines/dip sticks are used in many different applications with different angles of installation, do not ASSUME that the dip stick is correctly marked. Calibration costs $0.
At the next oil change, drain oil, remove old filter (as usual). Then install the drain plug and new oil filter and add the engine's correct oil capacity LESS THE NUMBER OF QUARTS you want between the "ADD" and "FULL" marks (let's say 2 quarts). So for an engine with 20 quart capacity you would add 18 quarts. Run the engine a few minutes, shut off and wait until oil has descended into the pan (at least 30 minutes and an hour is safer). Pull the dip stick and use a file or dremel tool to mark the oil level "ADD". Add the remaining two quarts, let the oil settle in the pan, pull the dipstick and mark this the "FULL" mark.
In many/most cases, you will find that your engine "throws out" the access oil and then "consumption" settles down to next to nothing. Put in the correct amount and your "consumption" issues may go away.
This applies to all ages (including brand new) of motorhomes and boats with every brand of engine.
Also, when checking the oil level with the dipstick it is safest to do it in the morning after the oil has had all night to flow back to the pan.
Do not add oil until the level reaches the ADD mark.
Finally, make a sticker to affix near oil fill: OIL CAPACITY INCLUDING FILTER: xx QUARTS. More...Like Quote
Recently I took my coach in for yearly service. I discussed my desire to calibrate dipstick with the service writer. When I picked the coach up I was told shop had neglected to calibrate the stick but the tech had checked the oil level and it was "correct" on the stick. This was 10 days ago. The coach has not moved nor been started in 10 days. I checked the dipstick today and this is what I found..see pic. You can see the full marked stamped on the stick and the fresh scratch mark I made to show where the oil is now. I went back and checked invoice from shop and show I was billed for 28 qts., however, from another shop I used last year I was billed 24 qts., manual indicates total oil capacity is 25 qts., pan only capacity is 24 qts. I would assume from this that I have had to much oil put in the coach. Question: What to do?....drive it and let the oil blow out all over the rear of the coach...OR...take it to a shop...and have excess oil removed? The question is a bit rhetorical as I know what I am going to do...I just would like confirmation. Coach was driven about 30 miles to get it home. Will be about 20 mile drive to get it to someone who can correct problem. Let me know what you think.. thanks, dave
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: John Haygarth on May 21, 2017, 07:37:20 pm
Take another reading with dipstick and photograph the level showing then get hold of the last service shop and give them hell as to why this engine had so much more oil put in than even the manual said. Also find out why the calibration was not done as asked for and also ask for the cost of the extra oil added to be given back to you. Do not let this dipstick mechanic get the best of you. John H
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: John44 on May 21, 2017, 08:43:35 pm
Looks to me like the oil is halfway between the add mark and the full mark?The add mark says add 4 qts.when at that point,looks like you are 2 qts low to me.Unless you watched how the tech put the oil in the whole thing is a moot point,did he use qt. bottles or bulk or what?Just because the reciept says x amount doesn't mean anything.I would add oil to the full mark and wait til next oil change and find someone who knows what their doing to calbrate your engine.Was the coach on a level spot when the oil was changed,is it level now,a slight amount is a big difference.Maybe the reason they didn't calibrate it is because they have no clue what that is and are too proud to ask.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on May 21, 2017, 08:54:52 pm
Dave,
Where have you been running the oil level prior to this service? Have you been keeping it at the "full" mark, or some other constant level? Was the engine "happy" where you were running it? Did it blow any oil out the vent tube when you drove it home?
As you noted, a "over filled" engine will tend to puke out some of the excess. A "under filled" engine doesn't really exhibit any symptoms (unless it is run dry, of course). Some "experts" even say running a couple quarts low reduces drag on the crank and improves performance. What I'm saying is, there is some latitude in where you keep the oil level. Up to you to decide what you can live with. Your photo looks to me like it was perhaps 2 quarts over the "full" mark where you scribed the line. If it was me, and it didn't blow any out on the trip home, I'd just leave it where it is and see what happens. Your scribed line might actually be the correct "full" mark.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Michael & Jackie on May 21, 2017, 09:24:40 pm
I had what seemed about 2 qts over. took back to MOT, checked and was fine. Be sure level. Risch checked dipstick be sure it correct model for our ISM.
If oil is between the two marks on dipstick I was told that normal, do not add a little just to get it to the upper mark. (maybe need to allow couple minutes for oil return to pan to be measured if hot engine?)
.......I think our friend Peter trying to teach me. At a trucking business, one guy on the Morning shift would check the truck oil level from nights trips, top it off for the day. And then truck just promptly blew it out the slobber tube until the level settled between the marks. He asked them to quit adding, topping it off, until needed. 😂
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Gerry Vicha on May 21, 2017, 09:29:34 pm
Unlike automatic transmissions, it is my belief that it is better to have your diesel engine a little over full than a little under full. As a practice I always overfill my 6V92 Detroit. Somewhere I was told the extra oil adds to the cooling ability by having more volume and when the engine is a quart or two over full the worst case it will blow some of it out. Under filling or not maintaining minimum oil level could allow damage to happen before corrective action could be taken... ^.^d
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: RvTrvlr on May 21, 2017, 10:18:33 pm
Run the engine, then check the level again within 15 minutes of shutting it down. I have seen a lot of engines that allow all the internal passages to drain down, and even the filter can empty itsself into the sump appearing to be overfilled but actually being at the correct level.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: krush on May 22, 2017, 12:59:03 am
I'd rather run my engine lower on the dipstick than higher on the dipstick.
And, that would agree with what Caterpillar (and I suspect Cummins) recommend. In writing, Caterpillar says not to add oil until the oil level reaches the ADD MARK.
Excessive oil in the crankcase just goes out the crankcase vent hose (slobber hose).
And, oil should be checked when the engine is COLD (best in morning before firing up). Where oil goes upon shut down has been taken into consideration by your engine manufacturer.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: wantabe on May 22, 2017, 08:00:06 am
Boats have a unique problem in that you can't drain the engine oil sump, generally. The sump in inaccessible under the engine. Large boats usually pump the used oil into the fuel tank and consume it, and small boats have several devices for pumping the oil out of the sump, some through the dip stick tube. Using one of these might be more advantageous than taking the coach back to a service center.
wantabe
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: dke1955 on May 22, 2017, 08:23:17 am
Boats have a unique problem in that you can't drain the engine oil sump, generally. The sump in inaccessible under the engine. Large boats usually pump the used oil into the fuel tank and consume it, and small boats have several devices for pumping the oil out of the sump, some through the dip stick tube. Using one of these might be more advantageous than taking the coach back to a service center.
wantabe
Years ago...when I was in highschool, I worked in a boatyard after school (lived on Long Island)....one of my main jobs was changing the oil on customers yachts. (If I had one of those oil pumps we used my problem would be solved). What fun it was getting down in those engine bays in the summer months....but I learned a lot, met some great folks. Got to meet the president of Bic Pens when we were in Rhode Island putting a 454ci in a customers boat (had twin 427's we had just installed months before but the kido's blew one of the motors up!), he was restoring a PT boat from WWII...pretty cool! ...
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on May 22, 2017, 08:31:36 am
And, that would agree with what Caterpillar (and I suspect Cummins) recommend. In writing, Caterpillar says not to add oil until the oil level reaches the ADD MARK.
Excessive oil in the crankcase just goes out the crankcase vent hose (slobber hose).
And, oil should be checked when the engine is COLD (best in morning before firing up). Where oil goes upon shut down has been taken into consideration by your engine manufacturer.
So if I understand, while not the best situation to be in, it will not do damage to the engine to drive the coach in order to blow the excess out? If have spent so much time and $$$ on the coach over the course of the last year I do not want to take a chance on doing anything that would cost me down the road. I appreciate your advice. Also would like your opinion on why there is conflicting capacity figures from Cummins and FT re. the oil. Cummins states oil pan capacity as 24 gts., filter and pan as 25 qts., and the manual from FT states 26 qts with filter change. One shop used 24 qts to change oil, current shop used 28 qts.. This has got me pulling my hair out (what's left of it)...not one concise/precise answer as to capacities...would you know why the variance? Thanks so much. dave
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: dke1955 on May 22, 2017, 09:17:02 am
So, no comment to the members who posted their "opinions" above?
What are you going to do?
I have appt. with MOT tomorrow to button up a few last minor issues with the coach. I will call them today to see if I can get this taken care of as well. I would also just like to know where I am on this matter. Is dipstick correct as it is, is it off, what is the capacity of the motor...is it 24 qts (shop) , 25 qts (cummins), 26 qts (FT), 28qts (shop). I mean I have been changing oil on cars, trucks, motorcycles, tractors, 4wheelers, lawnmowers my entire adult life...you read the specs., you change the filter, you put the oil in, keep the last quart or whatever, start the motor, get the oil in the filter....shut the motor off, pull the stick and add remaining oil till you hit the mark....that is unless the mark is wrong....THEN you need to know the capacity of the motor...that folks seems to be the million dollar question. I hope to be able to speak to Keith at MOT, whatever he recommends I will do. I need to put this issue to bed and move on. Thanks to all for the replies....truly appreciate your opinions and support. Be Safe dave
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Michael & Jackie on May 22, 2017, 10:15:27 am
When I had this few years ago, before we proved it not overfilled, Risch and Rodgers said would not have harmed me driving home and back, that our oil pan is or not pressurized, would just blow out slobber tube as I said
Risch took the dip stick, checked it. Said there were some coaches with wrong one....turns out mine not.
So, reassured not damaged if it was overfilled....it blew the oil out, ....now understood too to not add til level hit bottom of marks....I think that four quarts??... must be level. And we checked quantity added versus design, it ended just fine.
Incidentally, if you can find that thread, I then got into....how much oil are yous guys losing per 1000 miles, how much you adding between changes? (I was totally new to diesels)
Let's do lunch Dave!
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on May 22, 2017, 10:22:05 am
Confusion over oil change quantity is very common. Search the subject here, or on other RV forums. Many members are confused.
One factor: different capacity oil pans on different Cummins engines. How do you know for sure what you have? One solution - sign up for free at Cummins QuickServe Online (https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html). Once your engine serial number is registered, you can find the info you seek on your specific engine.
No guessing - just the facts.
For instance, the oil pan data for my C8.3 engine is shown in the .pdf linked below. My oil pan "full" capacity is 20 quarts.
Assuming your dipstick actually reads at the "full" mark when the oil pan is at the full level, and assuming you get every drop out of the pan when you pull the plug, then oil (plus filter) change quantity should equal oil pan capacity + filter capacity. In the case of my engine, it is pretty close, but not exact. When I change oil, I buy 5 gallons. After draining (hot) oil and dropping filter, I pour 4 gallons down the filler tube, and pre-fill the fresh filter (with roughly 2 quarts) out of the last gallon, leaving about 1/2 gallon remaining in the last jug. Then I start the engine, let it run a while, shut it down and let it sit a while. At that point the dip stick usually shows about midway between the "full" and "add" line. I just leave it there until our next road trip, when I check it again after a full day of driving, and usually add another quart or so to bring it up near the "full" mark on the dip stick, where it seems to be very happy and does not spit oil out the puke tube.
Bottom line: My engine takes 20 quarts for a oil change versus a theoretical required quantity of 22 quarts.
You experience/results may be different.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: bbeane on May 22, 2017, 10:42:53 am
2 quarts over/under full is not going to kill anything one way or another. I think I put 24 guarts in mine then check it after a couple of days running. ISC 8.3
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 22, 2017, 10:48:54 am
Two quarts over will generally end up going out the slobber tube as you drive
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: dke1955 on May 22, 2017, 11:12:20 am
Confusion over oil change quantity is very common. Search the subject here, or on other RV forums. Many members are confused.
One factor: different capacity oil pans on different 8.3L Cummins engines. How do you know for sure what you have? One solution - sign up for free at Cummins QuickServe Online (https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html). Once your engine serial number is registered, you can find the info you seek on your specific engine.
No guessing - just the facts.
For instance, the oil pan data for my engine is shown in the .pdf linked below. My oil pan "full" capacity is 20 quarts.
Assuming your dipstick actually reads at the "full" mark when the oil pan is at the full level, and assuming you get every drop out of the pan when you pull the plug, then oil (plus filter) change quantity should equal oil pan capacity + filter capacity. In the case of my engine, it is pretty close. When I change oil, I buy 5 gallons. After draining (hot) oil and dropping filter, I pour 4 gallons down the filler tube, and pre-fill the fresh filter (with roughly 2 quarts) out of the last gallon, leaving about 1/2 gallon remaining in the last jug. Then I start the engine, let it run a while, shut it down and let it sit a while. At that point the dip stick usually shows about midway between the "full" and "add" line. I just leave it there until our next road trip, when I check it again after a full day of driving, and usually add another quart or so to bring it up near the "full" mark on the dip stick, where it seems to be very happy and does not spit oil out the puke tube.
Bottom line: My engine requires 20 quarts for a oil change versus a theoretical required quantity of 22 quarts.
You experience/results may be different.
Thanks Chuck!!...I think you had posted a link to Cummins Quickservice Online previously and I got an online account with them last night. So I did as you suggested and this is what I got back, based on my 8.8L 400 ISL ..see below...so if I read the provided info correctly....28 qts IS the correct amount of oil just going by the numbers...wow. Thanks so much...there ya go...problem solved...COOL!!...If it wasn't 10am I'd have a beer...might have one anyway...wow.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: dke1955 on May 22, 2017, 11:18:30 am
When I had this few years ago, before we proved it not overfilled, Risch and Rodgers said would not have harmed me driving home and back, that our oil pan is or not pressurized, would just blow out slobber tube as I said
Risch took the dip stick, checked it. Said there were some coaches with wrong one....turns out mine not.
So, reassured not damaged if it was overfilled....it blew the oil out, ....now understood too to not add til level hit bottom of marks....I think that four quarts??... must be level. And we checked quantity added versus design, it ended just fine.
Incidentally, if you can find that thread, I then got into....how much oil are yous guys losing per 1000 miles, how much you adding between changes? (I was totally new to diesels)
Let's do lunch Dave!
Hi Mike! I had the same conversation with Keith...he showed me his toolbox where he had written down the offending serial numbers for the dipsticks which read wrong...I even have a pic somewhere of the toolbox....trouble was my stick does not have a serial # on it...so this is what started the whole process I am in....or WAS IN thanks to Chucks post...looks like I may have marked my stick to the proper "full" mark when I documented the last oil change by the last shop.. I'm always up for lunch!....off this coming Friday...let me know your schedule...I'll be there. Take Care dave
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: dke1955 on May 22, 2017, 11:32:58 am
Would like everyone who posted a reply here (and to all my questions) to know I appreciate your replies....every single one of them. Personally, after finding out how complex these coaches are I would have sold the coach a month after purchase if it were not for this forum. The knowledge and experience of all of you is tremendous and I thank you for taking time from your day to help a guy, who the majority of the time, can't find his rear end with a flashlight, a map and someone pointing the way... See ya dave
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: wolfe10 on May 22, 2017, 05:42:39 pm
Dave,
To answer your "will a little over-filled hurt" question:
If a little, it WILL just blow out the crankcase breather tube (and all over the back of coach and toad).
If enough overfilled that the crankshaft dips into it, it will aerate the oil (i.e. air bubbles in it) and it will not properly lubricate.
Again, at next oil change CALIBRATE THE ENGINE OIL DIPSTICK. It is FREE.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: its toby on May 22, 2017, 09:56:51 pm
I don't recommend just watching it blow out the slobber tube. Oil is a pain to clean and there are lots of places for it to collect and drop from every time it gets hot.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: John44 on May 22, 2017, 10:31:46 pm
Cleaned my breather hose(slobber tube) to make sure it is clear,on my 8.3 the hose comes from the top of the valve cover down the side of the engine.Don't remember on mine but alot of engines have screens and covers built in the valve cover to prevent exactly what we think is happening.Unless it can be explained to me to make more sense why if one of our engines is 2 qts overfilled the thinking is that at some correct level the oil stops blowing out?The oil in the engine is bouncing around as we turn and stop and drive,in my opinion if you actually put in 2 qts extra oil and it "blows" out you have an engine problem.I do agree that at some overfill amount the oil will cavitate,will take my crankcase pressure tomorrow and see what it reads.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: craneman on May 22, 2017, 10:52:04 pm
Following this thread like John am trying to figure out why 2 qts. overfill would put any more oil on top of the head. The oil pump volume is rpm related up until the pressure bypass opens and then remains constant. As deep as the pans are 2 qts. should not make crankshaft contact. Reading the threads where oil was thrown out from over filling there must be something I don't understand.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on May 22, 2017, 10:58:24 pm
I've never had any problem with "oil" coming out my vent tube, but I've read the stories about it happening. In those cases, I'd always assumed it was actually a very oil-rich vapor that was being blown out, rather than solid liquid oil. I've also heard of oil foaming from crank impact, as was mentioned above, and figured it must be something like that causing the dense vapor to be expelled. But this is all conjecture on my part.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: craneman on May 22, 2017, 11:01:14 pm
I've never had any problem with oil coming out my vent tube, but I've read the stories about it happening. I always assumed it was a very oil-rich vapor that was being blown out, rather than actual liquid oil. I'd heard of oil foaming from crank impact, as mentioned above, and figured it must be something like that causing the dense vapor to be expelled. But this is all conjecture on my part.
Oil rich vapor "blow by" in my language and caused by compression getting past the rings, or holes in pistons.
Title: Re: Oil dipstick shows engine may have been overfilled???? Your opinions please
Post by: John44 on May 22, 2017, 11:21:40 pm
FYI,my Cummins book on my 8.3 says 1/4 inch on the dipstick is 1 qt.