Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 04:16:12 pm
Title: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 04:16:12 pm
I am new here, and have been spending a great deal of time reading the terrific posts and learning everything I can about FT. When I came upon the extensive thread regarding the bulkhead corrosion, I panicked, because I knew nothing about this prior to purchasing my GV and therefore did not include the bulkhead in the pre-purchase inspection.
I am posting some photos I took of the rear bulkhead seam, in order to ask if any of the members here could comment on them. I know that the posters to the thread stated that not much can be determined from a casual external inspection. Nevertheless any observations on the condition will be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 25, 2017, 05:06:16 pm
Yup, you have a big problem.
The second picture shows the fiberglass sagged and separated and the box beam sagging. No structural connection between the 1/4" thick angle and the box beam.
And, third picture, many missing or broken Rolok bolts and the box beam they should be screwed into sagging way down.
Where are you located?
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 05:12:54 pm
Located in Spokane, WA. Even though we have a FT "authorized service center" here, I don't know that I would trust any outlying shop with something like this.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 25, 2017, 05:28:15 pm
Go through Don's pictures of his rebuild of the bulkhead on his coach. It is not complex, just a lot of work for a welder. Don't know how far forward you will need to go to find solid metal. That will tell you the extend of the rebuild.
You can get some idea of how far it extends by looking carefully for "rust jacking"-- the pushing down of the fiberglass underbelly by rusting of the box beams. Go forward from that rear bulkhead until you no longer see rust jacking.
This damage could extend forward only to the front of the wet bay, or it could be more extensive.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Tim Fiedler on June 25, 2017, 05:30:17 pm
Yes it is something to be repaired, but the repair while expensive still likely be worth repairing, especially if you can get to Nacogdoches. Since this often tied to internal water damage, some have been successful getting insurance to pay for it. No need to totally panic just yet, but needs addressed
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 05:41:13 pm
Thank you very much for this information. I will inspect accordingly.
My research here in the forum would indicate that this is a repair that should only be made at the factory, is this the general consensus on this issue?
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 05:42:27 pm
Thank you, that is an interesting thought. As to travel to Nagadoches, my initial concern is whether the coach is safe to drive?
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 25, 2017, 05:45:53 pm
My suggestion is to study how the repair needs to be made (excellent posts with pictures on this website).
Then find a welder in your area. Get him familiar with the repair from this website and then turn him loose.
Without looking a lot more carefully at the structure, I would not venture a guess on how it would do in a cross country trip.
Also, might be a good idea to touch base with Don who personally did this on his coach.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 06:04:47 pm
I am not finding the pictures of the repair to which you preferred. Can you please advise where they are located?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 25, 2017, 06:14:26 pm
If you're handy, you can do the repair yourself. You just need a wire feed welder, a metal cutting band saw and some inexpensive HF tools. Don did an outstanding job and did it in his driveway as I remember.
Pierce
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 25, 2017, 06:18:28 pm
Before, During, After (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16653.0)
Don starts buttoning her up (split from What did you do to your coach) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17450.0)
Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14530.25)
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Tim Fiedler on June 25, 2017, 06:30:02 pm
fair to say, Don's work is the ultimate in repairs -
the posts will give you an idea of the structure and what you are dealing with. Don's work is amazing and exquisite, it was a shame to cover all that up!
a sturdy repair can be accomplished by a good welder that knows what he is doing, Recent bulkhead repairs in NAC have been coming in around $3-$5K, your mileage will vary based (on as Brett points out) how far forward the rust goes on the lower structure. It is possible, but unlikely that you will have to replace the entire subframe. This lower frame creates the basement space and rigidity in the chassis, but the main chassis rails are the primary structural members.
How long have you been driving it that way? Did you just purchase coach? What city/state are you located i
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 06:41:25 pm
Thank you very much for these links. I am diving into creating a plan for the project instead of wallowing in sorrow and regret.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 25, 2017, 06:43:00 pm
EXCELLENT.
Let us know if we can help.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 06:45:28 pm
Thanks very much for the information. $3-5K would be a small price to pay for putting this in the rear view.
I have only driven the coach 60 mi. from N. Idaho, the point of purchase, to Spokane, WA. It drove superbly, and at that point I had no knowledge of the problem.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 25, 2017, 06:46:10 pm
I certainly will, and greatly appreciate the help you have provided so far.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: prfleming on June 25, 2017, 06:58:30 pm
Here is a post on complete bay floor replacement
Bay floor replacement (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=27724.0)
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 25, 2017, 07:09:46 pm
After viewing the repair that Don did, a welding shop in your area will be able to do the job. Might want to shop around before you commit to a particular shop and make sure they can do the job without cutting corners.
Pierce
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: prfleming on June 25, 2017, 07:30:35 pm
Just a very respectful correction, the UniHome monocoque chassis does not have main chassis rails.
Our semi-monocoque starts with frame rails front and back but the mid section is monocoque. Fortunately, when the floor goes, the interior floor, the sides and roof keep everything pretty much aligned so just a bit of measuring before welding in the new tubing will bring it back to OEM specs.
Too bad they didn't go to full monocoque like the GM buses and we wouldn't have the bulkhead problem. Water leaks rusting the tubing out would still be there though.
Pierce
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Karl Shurtleff on June 27, 2017, 08:04:23 am
At this point my bulkheads look good on my 94 GV...is there any way to prevent the problem from happening? Mine still has less than 30 K miles and has been stored inside, but it is getting used a lot now and I would like to keep this from happening in the future. Thanks for any advice!
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 27, 2017, 08:15:45 am
Karl,
As has been said for many years, there are a couple of common entry points for water into the rear bulkhead area:
Water in the wet bay-- good housekeeping says to never let water sit in there. Never wash it out, etc.
Failure of the seal around the drop down door in the wet bay. In worse cases, new aluminum angle can be used to "redo" this area.
Cracks in the coach under body caused by lack of spreading the load of hose reels, electric cord reels, etc. Couple of 4X4" pieces of aluminum drilled in the center and used as large "fender washers" to spread the load is a $5 fix for this.
The heads of the Rolok bolts are serrated-- serves as a locking mechanism. Also functions as a "stand off" allowing water to wick past the head, through the 1/4" angle and into the box beam/bolt junction. That is why a number of broken Roloks are broken exactly where the Rolok first starts into the box beam (4-5 threads in). My recommendation in the bulkhead document 8 years ago is to mask off the heads of the Roloks so you can get a wrench on them in the future, mask off just forward on the fiberglass and use 1/2 a can of regular automotive undercoating to seal this.
None of these are complicated or require special tools or skills OR much money.
And, check once a year, replacing any broken Roloks with through bolts as described in the bulkhead document. Each broken one puts additional strain on its remaining neighbors.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: John S on June 27, 2017, 08:45:10 am
As has been said for many years, there are a couple of common entry points for water into the rear bulkhead area:
Water in the wet bay-- good housekeeping says to never let water sit in there. Never wash it out, etc.
Failure of the seal around the drop down door in the wet bay. In worse cases, new aluminum angle can be used to "redo" this area.
Cracks in the coach under body caused by lack of spreading the load of hose reels, electric cord reels, etc. Couple of 4X4" pieces of aluminum drilled in the center and used as large "fender washers" to spread the load is a $5 fix for this.
The heads of the Rolok bolts are serrated-- serves as a locking mechanism. Also functions as a "stand off" allowing water to wick past the head, through the 1/4" angle and into the box beam/bolt junction. That is why a number of broken Roloks are broken exactly where the Rolok first starts into the box beam (4-5 threads in). My recommendation in the bulkhead document 8 years ago is to mask off the heads of the Roloks so you can get a wrench on them in the future, mask off just forward on the fiberglass and use 1/2 a can of regular automotive undercoating to seal this.
None of these are complicated or require special tools or skills OR much money.
And, check once a year, replacing any broken Roloks with through bolts as described in the bulkhead document. Each broken one puts additional strain on its remaining neighbors.
After I asked the question I found your post from 7 years ago...Sorry about that! I clicked on the link that you had for the plug for the fiberglass after drilling and it is not found. I will have to look for a new plug. I want to locate everything prior to starting. Thanks for all the help!
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on June 27, 2017, 08:59:18 am
After I asked the question I found your post from 7 years ago...Sorry about that! I clicked on the link that you had for the plug for the fiberglass after drilling and it is not found. I will have to look for a new plug. I want to locate everything prior to starting. Thanks for all the help!
Ya, not surprising that a PN would change over 7 years.
Please do post a new PN for a waterproof plug like that one. I will go back and update the PN in the original post.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Karl Shurtleff on June 27, 2017, 09:51:01 am
Looks like the PN is the same but a new link please verify this is the same plug as the one you recommend:
Heyco 3837 KOS-LT 1 BLACK LIQUID TIGHT KNOCK-OUT SEAL (package of 10):... (https://www.amazon.com/Heyco-KOS-LT-LIQUID-KNOCK-OUT-package/dp/B001BQ01YM/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1498571433&sr=1-1&keywords=liquid+tight+hole+plugs+3837)
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 28, 2017, 05:15:35 pm
With thanks to all who have provided background information, insights and help with this, I have been in touch with FT, who's tech rep said that my local Authorized Service Center, RnR RV, in Spokane, WA can do the bulkhead work.
RnR states that they have done this project before, and seemed confident of their ability to address the bulkhead restoration. Therefore, I scheduled my coach into their shop on the 6th of July.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: hcharlson on June 28, 2017, 06:08:22 pm
That's great news. I hope they get it repaired soon so you can be out enjoying your motorhome.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: jor on June 28, 2017, 06:10:03 pm
If you get a chance, take lots of photos. Everybody is interested in bulkheads! jor
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 28, 2017, 07:43:03 pm
Thanks, and I will take as many photos as the shop will allow!!
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: John Haygarth on June 28, 2017, 10:48:04 pm
Tell them the FT forum demands to see it repaired by pictures. JohnH
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 28, 2017, 11:00:01 pm
Good point. I will!
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on June 28, 2017, 11:57:32 pm
Does the shop understand that this is a frame replacement, not just a bulk head bolting repair?
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Old Knucklehead on June 29, 2017, 12:05:20 am
I really love these coaches and I get sort of excited when I read about restorations and repairs like this and others. Your coach, when repaired properly, will have a history of...well, caring that other rigs may not have down the road. Document your efforts and start the book for the next guy that gets your coach, when you no longer remember where you parked the Foretravel many, many years from now.
Good luck with the efforts! Floor it.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on June 29, 2017, 10:55:33 am
Yes, the shop is aware that this involves removing the belly plate and restoring/replacing/welding the frame tubing. They've done it before.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 29, 2017, 12:35:27 pm
Re: taking photos - you might also mention that a nice detailed photo report, posted on our Forum, will (potentially) be seen by a lot of eyeballs (4500 members!). Excellent FREE advertising for their shop!
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 03, 2017, 11:14:01 am
With thanks to all who have provided background information, insights and help with this, I have been in touch with FT, who's tech rep said that my local Authorized Service Center, RnR RV, in Spokane, WA can do the bulkhead work.
RnR states that they have done this project before, and seemed confident of their ability to address the bulkhead restoration. Therefore, I scheduled my coach into their shop on the 6th of July.
I was a service adviser at R&R for 2 years before I retired. The Service manager is Kieth Woodruff, who was the service manager for the Foretravel store in Liberty Lake when I also worked there as a tech. R&R is capable to do the job. They have all the equipment to do it correct and professional. With that said, I highly recommend getting some sort of estimate in advance from them. Their shop rate is close to, if not at $150.00 an hour. This is due in part because of the tax on labor in Washington. From the pictures I see, and by looking at my friend's U270 job which he is doing himself,this is a minimum of a 50 hour project, plus materials. R&R is a flat rate shop, so they will charge for every minute they work on it. Foretravel of Texas does these all the time, so they are a little more efficient doing the job cost wise. Lastly, unless it has changed there, an appointment date is to bring the coach in to get "inline" to be repaired. During the summer months, I would expect the coach to be there all summer.A question I would ask in advance. I sent my neighbor to R&R for some minor gen set and slide out repairs last summer on his gas coach, they had the coach 2 months. I don't mean to bad mouth the place, that is not my intention. I am sorry if I bummed you out, but just want you to enter this project with your eye's wide open.I care about my Foretravel family. Chris
Chris
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on July 03, 2017, 11:30:50 am
Chris,
Very interesting and good info. I may rethink this. I started out thinking I would have a welding shop do this, since it appears to be mostly welding/fabricating. Might re-examine that.
Thanks very much for this insight.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 03, 2017, 02:25:02 pm
Very interesting and good info. I may rethink this. I started out thinking I would have a welding shop do this, since it appears to be mostly welding/fabricating. Might re-examine that.
Thanks very much for this insight.
Your welcome. Again,not bad mouthing them, just watching out for you. They do estimates for body and paint all the time. They have an estimator. I would take it in for an estimate first, then ask for a time frame.You still may have to leave it. They may charge 1hr for the estimate. At least you won't get a big surprise in the end.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on July 03, 2017, 02:40:09 pm
Very good point Chris. I have an appointment later this week and will do just that. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Carol & Scott on July 04, 2017, 04:51:05 pm
When MOT had ours rebuilt they replaced the 16 ga. wall square tubing with 11 gauge. Same tubing OD - thicker tubing wall.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Don & Tys on July 04, 2017, 06:10:01 pm
When I did our bulkhead rebuild, I used a mixture of 11 gage and 13 gage tubing, both inch and a half square tubing (11 gage) and 3/4" X 1.5" (13 gage on the diagonals). I have attached a picture comparing the wall thicknesses of 18 gage (I believe that 18 gage is what FOT used for the tubing that didn't form the bulkhead joint, based on a picture attached below that I think I found on the forum), 13 gage, and 11 gage tubing FYI. So far, I haven't seen anybody else add the diagonals... perhaps because it makes adding the rigid foam insulation more difficult. If I was running a shop doing this work, I would weld the diagonals, vacuum bag the assembly bonding the bottom skin, spray polyurethane foam insulation in the cavities, trim it flat against the top exposed framing and finally vacuum bond the top skin sealing the whole assembly. But I would have to charge so much, I doubt anyone would pay it... Don
When MOT had ours rebuilt they replaced the 16 ga. wall square tubing with 11 gauge. Same tubing OD - thicker tubing wall.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: DavidS on July 04, 2017, 06:23:13 pm
I think .065 would be a minimum thickness.. I would go .088 or an .095 as it will hold for a while and if you have the choice pay for good paint and primer ..
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: JohnFitz on July 04, 2017, 08:09:14 pm
Randall, If you would prefer to have the work done in Nac, you could have it temporarily fixed by a local shop so you can make the journey down there. The basement floor needs to be supported for the tank loads as well as fore/aft support for the suspension while going down the road. When separation of that joint occurs, fore/aft suspension loads (via the trailing arms) get transferred to the vertical supports. Attached is diagram showing the breakage from one owner. (credit goes to the original poster, whom I lost track of). I would suggest a good inspection for any similar breakage.
Nothing has been said about the front bulkhead. How does it look? Also, when you look at the very bottom of the coach do you see any budging of the skin? You don't want to spend the $ to fix the rear when the front isn't too far behind. If so, a full basement panel would is not out of the question and if so, you might be able to get the drawing from Foretravel and have it fabricated before you arrive. I would think any of the mentioned vendors could do this.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 04, 2017, 10:19:52 pm
Thanks for the picture (diagram) Ours was broken too. Previous owner used two come-along's to pull the front and back into place.Then welded 1 1/2" X 2 1/2" (or whatever the width is) heavy tube in between the vertical angle's. He also welded the vertical angle themselves. Instead of messing with the bolts, he cut the belly glass back about 6"'s and stitch welded a 3/8" thick by 4" wide bar across, then sealed it with with foil tape over that. It was done several years ago. I closely inspected it this summer, only had one, 1" spot where I had to reseal the tape.Probably from a rock. But the coach wasn't rusting to start with, so he had good metal to weld to. No bolts in the rear. Front is fine. Cheers
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: wolfe10 on July 04, 2017, 10:40:41 pm
Chris,
Got any pictures of that?
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 05, 2017, 11:35:04 am
Here is our welded repair. I am happy with it. As I mentioned elsewhere, you need good metal to weld to. My friends U270 coming from Alaska was very rusty. He did the bolt through repair and it only lasted a year.He is now doing the major rebuild. I completely inspected this a month ago. It's doing fine.I watch it like a hawk. It was done several years ago. Both the previous owner, and myself, tow Jeeps behind it, which also adds stress. You can see the heavy square tubing, welded between the upright angle iron.Sorry for the weak pictures. Hard to do in the dark on your back. You can see the foil tape sealing, and also no bolts. Chris
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Don & Tys on July 05, 2017, 12:08:24 pm
Interesting! The rectangular tubing welded in between the vertical angle iron supports is very similar to what I did when I repaired our bulkhead joint, except that I also added some gussets where the rectangular tubes meet the heavy framing above. My idea was to remove some of the stress off of the bulkhead joint by transferring it to the heavy engine carriage framing above. Don
Here is our welded repair. I am happy with it. As I mentioned elsewhere, you need good metal to weld to. My friends U270 coming from Alaska was very rusty. He did the bolt through repair and it only lasted a year.He is now doing the major rebuild. I completely inspected this a month ago. It's doing fine.I watch it like a hawk. It was done several years ago. Both the previous owner, and myself, tow Jeeps behind it, which also adds stress. You can see the heavy square tubing, welded between the upright angle iron.Sorry for the weak pictures. Hard to do in the dark on your back. You can see the foil tape sealing, and also no bolts. Chris
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on July 05, 2017, 02:10:35 pm
Thank you for the suggestion and photos. Initially, I am going to have the service center here inspect and estimate the project. I would much prefer to have the work done here locally if at all possible. My front bulkhead seems to be good, but of course will not really know until the Fiberglas pan is removed for inspection.
In re the other post with the frame diagram, many thanks. I am aghast that the frame bulkhead deterioration can affect the axle position.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: hotonthetrail on July 05, 2017, 02:34:43 pm
Would there be any benefit "bolting", to the angle iron, 3 stringers in the form of 1/4" x 3" from front to back bulkhead, with self tapping screws at each vertical partition to stabilize and support the straps.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 05, 2017, 10:57:56 pm
Would there be any benefit "bolting", to the angle iron, 3 stringers in the form of 1/4" x 3" from front to back bulkhead, with self tapping screws at each vertical partition to stabilize and support the straps.
I have heard of that. I have also heard of people cross strapping it in the same way.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 05, 2017, 11:01:39 pm
Thank you for the suggestion and photos. Initially, I am going to have the service center here inspect and estimate the project. I would much prefer to have the work done here locally if at all possible. My front bulkhead seems to be good, but of course will not really know until the Fiberglas pan is removed for inspection.
In re the other post with the frame diagram, many thanks. I am aghast that the frame bulkhead deterioration can affect the axle position.
Yes, my friend that is doing his own repair, had a adjustable end added to either the upper or lower trailing arm. Gene's alignment in Spokane can do a 4 wheel alignment on FT's. They also understand them.My friends was a 1/4" out. When he is done, Gene's will realign it.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: Don & Tys on July 06, 2017, 02:06:54 am
It would be a good quick fix until a proper repair could be done... if the rust was continuing to work under the skin, those angle irons would eventually be the only thing supporting the basement structure. On the other hand, I saw a U300 that someone had done this on and they considered it fixed. Don
Would there be any benefit "bolting", to the angle iron, 3 stringers in the form of 1/4" x 3" from front to back bulkhead, with self tapping screws at each vertical partition to stabilize and support the straps.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: hotonthetrail on July 06, 2017, 05:40:52 am
My thinking is to stabilize any rust or apply rust preventive to a good bulkhead then use the stringers as a peace of mind, bolting and making one end adjustable would take care of any alignment, should it be necessary. I think a flatter material would be better than angle.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 11, 2017, 12:35:49 pm
Hi Did you get a quote yet from RnR? Thanks
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: RandallBrink on July 11, 2017, 08:28:31 pm
I have not yet; I had an air bag issue that caused me to re-schedule my RnR appt until Monday. Will know then or sometime thereafter, but very motivated to get in with the inspection and repair. Will have lost the northern season, but now want to be on the road in the Fall, if at all possible.
Title: Re: Bulkhead Question
Post by: gracerace on July 11, 2017, 11:11:36 pm
I have not yet; I had an air bag issue that caused me to re-schedule my RnR appt until Monday. Will know then or sometime thereafter, but very motivated to get in with the inspection and repair. Will have lost the northern season, but now want to be on the road in the Fall, if at all possible.
I am going through the same thing with a race car engine. Started ordering parts last Christmas. Expected to be racing by now.Still waiting on machine work to be finished. Summer is flying by. We are pulling for you, only want the best for you. Chris