Title: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:05:31 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:05:31 pm
We just left Glacier Natl Park and I noticed the retarder temp on the VMSPC is rising to 280 degrees with the retarder on. I shut the retarder off (button off, joystick off) yet it got as high as 280 degrees. Various driving speeds would raise or lower the temp, mostly it would rise.
I stopped, performed the test on the transmission by pressing the up and down arrows and got a "79" code. The oil level was "OK"
The retarder temps took about 10-15 minutes sitting at idle to fall to 180 degrees. Afraid to leave city and get stuck.
Any ideas
PS. looking for Allison dealer in Kalispell Mt
Ed
I stopped, performed the test on the transmission by pressing the up and down arrows and got a "79" code. The oil level was "OK"
The retarder temps took about 10-15 minutes sitting at idle to fall to 180 degrees. Afraid to leave city and get stuck.
Any ideas
PS. looking for Allison dealer in Kalispell Mt
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2017, 02:26:05 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2017, 02:26:05 pm
Ed,
Does the transmission temperature rise only when you are off the throttle?
Is engine coolant temperature steady at normal reading or does it also vary?
Does the transmission temperature rise only when you are off the throttle?
Is engine coolant temperature steady at normal reading or does it also vary?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:44:21 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:44:21 pm
Thanks for replying Brett
No, tranny temp rises to about the 220's up from 180. This is when driving on city streets. Light throttle
Engine coolant temp stays fairly constant.
Retarder temps only begin to lower when stopped at idle. Took about 10-15 minutes
No, tranny temp rises to about the 220's up from 180. This is when driving on city streets. Light throttle
Engine coolant temp stays fairly constant.
Retarder temps only begin to lower when stopped at idle. Took about 10-15 minutes
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: John S on July 17, 2017, 02:50:29 pm
Post by: John S on July 17, 2017, 02:50:29 pm
I had that happen and I needed a new radiator and transmission cooler. The radiator was really much worse off but it did now show the temp increase first. The transmission showed the rise and took a long time to come down. I would look at both of them and see if you can see which one it is.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2017, 02:54:28 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2017, 02:54:28 pm
So, this happens even when on the throttle? For example, if driving at 20-30 MPH steady throttle the transmission temperature is still high?
Any loss of acceleration, feeling of dragging or other symptom of the retarder being on when it should not be?
Any loss of acceleration, feeling of dragging or other symptom of the retarder being on when it should not be?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:55:13 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:55:13 pm
thanks john
Trying to find a shop here in Kalispell, Mt. No luck yet.
Trying to find a shop here in Kalispell, Mt. No luck yet.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:58:45 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 02:58:45 pm
So, this happens even when on the throttle? For example, if driving at 20-30 MPH steady throttle the transmission temperature is still high?
Any loss of acceleration, feeling of dragging or other symptom of the retarder being on when it should not be?
Yes, 3rd gear, 1300 - 1400 rpm.
No lugging, I even checked the jeep to make sure it was set up for towing correctly.
Also, I just drove maybe 300-400 feet in parking lot. I doubt if I even got into second gear. Retarder temp went from a resting 178 degrees to instantly rising to 194.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 17, 2017, 03:09:02 pm
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on July 17, 2017, 03:09:02 pm
Malfunctioning temperature sender/sensor?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 03:22:46 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 03:22:46 pm
If no sensor or ground problem, it might be a stuck retarder actuator. I would want to get it looked at right away. Hopefully something external. How about a call to an Allison shop?
Pierce
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: John Morales on July 17, 2017, 03:26:14 pm
Post by: John Morales on July 17, 2017, 03:26:14 pm
Ed,
Hope this can help till while you continue to search for a service center. Allison Troubleshooting Guide.
John M
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/HE/HeavyEquipmentTech/2013-09-22_223029_allison_transmission_md3060_trouble-shooting.pdf
Hope this can help till while you continue to search for a service center. Allison Troubleshooting Guide.
John M
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/HE/HeavyEquipmentTech/2013-09-22_223029_allison_transmission_md3060_trouble-shooting.pdf
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 03:40:33 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 03:40:33 pm
A shop with a Pro-Link 9000 and a Allison World Transmission cartridge may help diagnose the problem. A truck shop may have one if no Allison dealer close by. http://aepsurplus.com/custom/auctionArchiveDetail.cfm?aID=1198
Fault code 79 is "sump temperature too high."
Pierce
Fault code 79 is "sump temperature too high."
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 03:47:29 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 03:47:29 pm
You might try calling Sam Clemmons at Western States Transmissions. They have an excellent Allison troubleshooting website.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 03:54:20 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 03:54:20 pm
If no sensor or ground problem, it might be a stuck retarder actuator. I would want to get it looked at right away. Hopefully something external. How about a call to an Allison shop?
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 04:48:43 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 17, 2017, 04:48:43 pm
At this point, I'm guess (yes, guessing) that it's a bad connection to the sensor or a bad sensor. The retarder temp sensor is located just above the retarder solenoid. The tranny sump temp sensor may be in one of the transmissions lines or screwed into the sump. The Allison parts drawings don't show a sump temp sensor, only a retarder temp sensor. Other forums point to a sensor failure and also say the coach manufacture may have put the temp sensor location convenient to them.
Attachment below shows an Allison temp sensor. Yours may or may not look like this one.
Pierce
Attachment below shows an Allison temp sensor. Yours may or may not look like this one.
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 17, 2017, 07:40:50 pm
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 17, 2017, 07:40:50 pm
Quote from: Lance Camper
Retarder temps only begin to lower when stopped at idle. Took about 10-15 minutes
[/quote
s
If I were trying to cool things down, I would put it in park and run it at least at 1/2 throttle if not full throttle.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2017, 09:17:59 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 17, 2017, 09:17:59 pm
If I were trying to cool things down, I would put it in park and run it at least at 1/2 throttle if not full throttle.
I would sure not recommend that. Perhaps 1,100 to 1,200 RPM, which would take very little throttle in neutral.
Can't see recommending "governed redline" which is exactly what even half throttle in neutral would produce!
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 09:48:19 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 17, 2017, 09:48:19 pm
Closest Authorized Allison dealer is 2 hours away. We are settling in for the night in a small rv park in Kalispell Mt.
Mulling over should I drive to the dealer in Missoula with the VMSPC reporting retarder temps 240-260? Don't even attempt it? Would Couch Net tow me? Would they tow me that far?
Ed
Mulling over should I drive to the dealer in Missoula with the VMSPC reporting retarder temps 240-260? Don't even attempt it? Would Couch Net tow me? Would they tow me that far?
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: JohnFitz on July 17, 2017, 10:29:30 pm
Post by: JohnFitz on July 17, 2017, 10:29:30 pm
Code 79 is Sump Fluid Temperature Too High: 
Unless that is an old code the high temperature might be real. The dash gauge is independent of the internal sensor that flags codes.
Do you have an IR temperature gun to confirm the high temperatures?
It sure seems like the retarder is on (even-though controls are off). Since we have "output" retarders the retardation level corresponds with speed. Mine is not noticeable at slow speeds. You could test it by commanding the retarder on to see if you can feel it engaging - I'm sure you know how it should feel better than anyone else. But it sounds like it might get too hot to even test it. If it sits overnight, the cool down might just release any solenoid valve (or what ever controls it) to release. Someone at an Allison dealer might know how to disable the retarder so you can drive it in. You could also try disconnecting the power to the transmission computer for a few minutes to reset it. Just some wild guessing on my part.
Your transmission is a HD 3066R. Here's a troubleshooting manual I found online (it's only 396 pages):
Unless that is an old code the high temperature might be real. The dash gauge is independent of the internal sensor that flags codes.
Do you have an IR temperature gun to confirm the high temperatures?
It sure seems like the retarder is on (even-though controls are off). Since we have "output" retarders the retardation level corresponds with speed. Mine is not noticeable at slow speeds. You could test it by commanding the retarder on to see if you can feel it engaging - I'm sure you know how it should feel better than anyone else. But it sounds like it might get too hot to even test it. If it sits overnight, the cool down might just release any solenoid valve (or what ever controls it) to release. Someone at an Allison dealer might know how to disable the retarder so you can drive it in. You could also try disconnecting the power to the transmission computer for a few minutes to reset it. Just some wild guessing on my part.
Your transmission is a HD 3066R. Here's a troubleshooting manual I found online (it's only 396 pages):
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 18, 2017, 10:01:15 am
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 18, 2017, 10:01:15 am
I would sure not recommend that. Perhaps 1,100 to 1,200 RPM, which would take very little throttle in neutral.
Can't see recommending "governed redline" which is exactly what even half throttle in neutral would produce!
I would only run it at max rpms for a short period to see if the oil temp started dropping (which it should if something else isn't wrong) before settling back to around 1500 rpm which is slightly over 1/2 of governed rpm on the little screaming 3116. I wasn't referring to foot position and I realize that "1/2 throttle" could be confusing. I would want more coolant circulating and air moving through the radiator than what I can get at low idle.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Bill Willett on July 18, 2017, 11:48:29 am
Post by: Bill Willett on July 18, 2017, 11:48:29 am
Check codes for a code 33 with a sub code of 12 or 23, it indicates transmission temp sensor failure.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 18, 2017, 01:09:20 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 18, 2017, 01:09:20 pm
Just to clarify because some of the helpful suggestions are confusing me. I am getting high temperature readings for the Retarder Oil Temperature (280 was yesterday's highest) on my VMSPC. Transmission Oil Temps are also than normal higher but around 220. Engine coolant seems to be fine.
I took her out this morning for a short drive. VMSPC show the temp to be 60 degrees, same as ambient temp. Normally when driving the Retarder Oil Temp will be around 179 degrees, then climbing whenever I apply the retarder. This morning I never turned on the retard button and the joystick was off also. When I would accelerate the temps just started to rise. As I pressed on the "accelerator" the temps would rise as high as 240 degrees.
I took her out this morning for a short drive. VMSPC show the temp to be 60 degrees, same as ambient temp. Normally when driving the Retarder Oil Temp will be around 179 degrees, then climbing whenever I apply the retarder. This morning I never turned on the retard button and the joystick was off also. When I would accelerate the temps just started to rise. As I pressed on the "accelerator" the temps would rise as high as 240 degrees.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 18, 2017, 04:37:04 pm
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 18, 2017, 04:37:04 pm
Just curious, on your drive this morning did you ever notice the retarder working or only the temp rising? Did you try turning it on to see if there was a difference? Hope you can get it sorted out soon.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 18, 2017, 05:38:33 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 18, 2017, 05:38:33 pm
Just curious, on your drive this morning did you ever notice the retarder working or only the temp rising? Did you try turning it on to see if there was a difference? Hope you can get it sorted out soon.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 18, 2017, 05:55:09 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 18, 2017, 05:55:09 pm
SO, bottom line is that someone needs to verify how to disable the retarder at the transmission.
That information would be of benefit if anyone else experiences an overheating transmission related to defective retarder activation.
Yes, I know-- we do not have 100% proof that that IS the root cause, but a good "work around" in any case.
That information would be of benefit if anyone else experiences an overheating transmission related to defective retarder activation.
Yes, I know-- we do not have 100% proof that that IS the root cause, but a good "work around" in any case.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 06:16:17 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 06:16:17 pm
I take it that trans temp sensor still has not been checked to see if it's working or giving erroneous readings? Seems like that would be the first thing checked. Since the Allison only has one temperature sensor for the fluid pan, it's readings would be the one seen by the Allison ECU and a ProLink 9000 if plugged in. The Allison does have a retarder temp sensor. Wonder how it's reading?
Anyone call an Allison shop yet for advice?
Pierce
Anyone call an Allison shop yet for advice?
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 06:31:59 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 06:31:59 pm
If the temperature sensor is operating properly, the Allison site here gives possible reasons for overheating:
Allison Transmission Parts
Troubleshooting Charts For Allison Transmissions AT / MT (B) / HT / V
The troubleshooting information contained in the following charts outlines the possible causes of transmission conditions and their remedies. Several possible causes are indicated; numbered items indicate suggested remedies for the causes. For Sales and Service Call America's #1 Supplier of OEM Allison Transmission Parts and Authorized Allison Dealer;
TransDiesel Transmission Call us: 1-407-295-1221
H - OVERHEATING IN ALL RANGES
Condition Probable Causes Suggested Remedies
Overheating in All Ranges 1. Cooler lines restricted. (Can also cause excessive fuel consumption.) 1. Remove restrictions; clean or replace lines. (Refer to vehicle service manual.)
2. Broken parts in converter. (Can also cause excessive fuel consumption.) 2. Replace or rebuild converter assembly. Note: Welded converter assemblies are not repairable and must be replaced as an assembly.
3. Aerated transmission fluid. 3. Adjust transmission fluid to proper level (be sure dipstick calibration is correct for specific model); check for defective sealring at intake tube. Check for defective input charging pump.
4. Cooler flow loss due to internal leakage. 4. Overhaul transmission.
Pierce
Allison Transmission Parts
Troubleshooting Charts For Allison Transmissions AT / MT (B) / HT / V
The troubleshooting information contained in the following charts outlines the possible causes of transmission conditions and their remedies. Several possible causes are indicated; numbered items indicate suggested remedies for the causes. For Sales and Service Call America's #1 Supplier of OEM Allison Transmission Parts and Authorized Allison Dealer;
TransDiesel Transmission Call us: 1-407-295-1221
H - OVERHEATING IN ALL RANGES
Condition Probable Causes Suggested Remedies
Overheating in All Ranges 1. Cooler lines restricted. (Can also cause excessive fuel consumption.) 1. Remove restrictions; clean or replace lines. (Refer to vehicle service manual.)
2. Broken parts in converter. (Can also cause excessive fuel consumption.) 2. Replace or rebuild converter assembly. Note: Welded converter assemblies are not repairable and must be replaced as an assembly.
3. Aerated transmission fluid. 3. Adjust transmission fluid to proper level (be sure dipstick calibration is correct for specific model); check for defective sealring at intake tube. Check for defective input charging pump.
4. Cooler flow loss due to internal leakage. 4. Overhaul transmission.
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 18, 2017, 06:39:59 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 18, 2017, 06:39:59 pm
Pierce,
Sounds like good diagnostic tree for a "regular" Allison 3000/4000, but not sure it addresses: "I have an R/retarder Allison and the retarder function stays engaged resulting in high fluid temperatures".
Again, not suggesting this is what is happening, but it would be worthwhile to know how to disable the retarder function so it can be ruled out as the cause of the overheating condition.
Sounds like good diagnostic tree for a "regular" Allison 3000/4000, but not sure it addresses: "I have an R/retarder Allison and the retarder function stays engaged resulting in high fluid temperatures".
Again, not suggesting this is what is happening, but it would be worthwhile to know how to disable the retarder function so it can be ruled out as the cause of the overheating condition.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 07:17:45 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 07:17:45 pm
Pierce,
Sounds like good diagnostic tree for a "regular" Allison 3000/4000, but not sure it addresses: "I have an R/retarder Allison and the retarder function stays engaged resulting in high fluid temperatures".
Again, not suggesting this is what is happening, but it would be worthwhile to know how to disable the retarder function so it can be ruled out as the cause of the overheating condition.
So tough when a thousand miles away. ;D
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 07:43:28 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 18, 2017, 07:43:28 pm
Here is the factory troubleshooting manual with 861 pages. Check page 167 as it refers to high fluid temps and the retarder. Looks like you need a Pro-Link or Allison break out box to really get into it. It does have the wire codes for both the sump temp as well as the retarder fluid temp. Lots to read and I don't see how to disable the retarder solenoid yet. The MH after the 3000 designates it as a motorhome application.
Read or download at: Allison 3000-4000 Series Troubleshooting | Manual Transmission | Transmission... (https://www.scribd.com/doc/305917502/Allison-3000-4000-Series-Troubleshooting)
Pierce
Read or download at: Allison 3000-4000 Series Troubleshooting | Manual Transmission | Transmission... (https://www.scribd.com/doc/305917502/Allison-3000-4000-Series-Troubleshooting)
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: craneman on July 18, 2017, 07:50:37 pm
Post by: craneman on July 18, 2017, 07:50:37 pm
We did have a thousand gallons of water on board plus 150 fuel.
So tough when a thousand miles away. ;D
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 19, 2017, 01:13:09 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on July 19, 2017, 01:13:09 am
How much water?
It did take a while to stop though. Six speed Allison with retarder.
Pierce
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Michelle on July 19, 2017, 07:11:14 am
Post by: Michelle on July 19, 2017, 07:11:14 am
Folks - let's stay on topic since this is an important Tech issue for the OP. Fire Ring is a better place for some of the straying discussion.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 10:42:22 am
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 10:42:22 am
Cummins shop (not Allison) here in Kalispell got us in this morning and the tech is looking for codes. I asked if he was familiar with Allison transmission retarder and he replied "a little". Wish me luck.
Ed
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 02:18:24 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 02:18:24 pm
So it's off to Missoula Mt and an Allison dealer. Service guy at I-State Truck Center says "no way to disable retarder you just gotta baby it in or tow it".
We have stopped 4-5 times in last 30 miles to let tranny cool down. Transmission temps stays around 220, retarder temp got as high as 270 this last time. Trying to keep retarder temps under 250.
:help:
We have stopped 4-5 times in last 30 miles to let tranny cool down. Transmission temps stays around 220, retarder temp got as high as 270 this last time. Trying to keep retarder temps under 250.
:help:
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Mark Duckworth on July 19, 2017, 02:22:50 pm
Post by: Mark Duckworth on July 19, 2017, 02:22:50 pm
Love Flathead Lake -- it's a pretty drive, sorry you're probably not able to enjoy it as much as usual given the circumstances. Hope the shop in Missoula knows their stuff!
Mark
Mark
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Numbers on July 19, 2017, 04:17:03 pm
Post by: Numbers on July 19, 2017, 04:17:03 pm
Coach Net should be able to tow you to the next authorized dealer where service can be performed. If that is a two hour tow to an Allison tranny place then they should be able to do it. At least that is how our program with them works.
If you decide to be towed, as posted in a thread awhile ago, you would need to make sure the tow operator pulls the axle shafts on both sides of the coach, and then covers the axle holes.
The way Coach Net works is that they take the information for your coach (size, weight, etc.) and then call places local to you to see who can handle the job. Then Coach Net bargains like crazy to keep the amount they pay the tow operator to a minimal level.
Chris
If you decide to be towed, as posted in a thread awhile ago, you would need to make sure the tow operator pulls the axle shafts on both sides of the coach, and then covers the axle holes.
The way Coach Net works is that they take the information for your coach (size, weight, etc.) and then call places local to you to see who can handle the job. Then Coach Net bargains like crazy to keep the amount they pay the tow operator to a minimal level.
Chris
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 19, 2017, 04:31:24 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 19, 2017, 04:31:24 pm
Be sure to do a Transynd fluid change with filters (5 gallon pail of Transynd and Allison filter kit) when this is solved. No sense in loosing a transmission over fluid that you know has been overheated.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 08:01:05 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 08:01:05 pm
Love Flathead Lake -- it's a pretty drive, sorry you're probably not able to enjoy it as much as usual given the circumstances. Hope the shop in Missoula knows their stuff!
Mark
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 19, 2017, 08:25:56 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 19, 2017, 08:25:56 pm
We also have CoachNet, but we feel that towing should always be last choice, as any towing even with both axle removed, can cause damage. Flatbed towing is probably preferred, but overall height has to managed. So driving and stopping may be better.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 08:26:58 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 19, 2017, 08:26:58 pm
We made it to I State Truck Center in Missoula. It's an authorized Allison dealer. Service Mgr Eric will do his best to get us in. I asked him about parking on the street across from the shop. He tells me it's ok, a lot do it.
Turns out Big Sky Brewing Company is about 350 feet across an open field from where we are spending the night.
And.......... the brewery is hosting a concert. UB40 is playing tonight. "Red Red Wine" and we have a front seat (350 feet away). And a growler from Big Sky. Life is good.
Turns out Big Sky Brewing Company is about 350 feet across an open field from where we are spending the night.
And.......... the brewery is hosting a concert. UB40 is playing tonight. "Red Red Wine" and we have a front seat (350 feet away). And a growler from Big Sky. Life is good.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Ted & Karen on July 20, 2017, 11:13:34 am
Post by: Ted & Karen on July 20, 2017, 11:13:34 am
Ed- while you are there by Big Sky try Moose Drool- it is their dark brown ale. Wish I had a growler of it right now.
Hope all goes well getting your tranny issue fixed, get back on the road , and don't forget a growler to go...............
Cya down the road ^.^d
Hope all goes well getting your tranny issue fixed, get back on the road , and don't forget a growler to go...............
Cya down the road ^.^d
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 20, 2017, 05:27:44 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 20, 2017, 05:27:44 pm
Ed- while you are there by Big Sky try Moose Drool- it is their dark brown ale.
My personal favorite.
Moose Drool, The name reminds me of a microbrew I first had in Pennsylvania. "Bear Wiz" beer. Too funny.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: bbeane on July 22, 2017, 10:22:26 am
Post by: bbeane on July 22, 2017, 10:22:26 am
Did you ever get your transmission issue fixed???!
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 24, 2017, 03:42:31 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 24, 2017, 03:42:31 pm
Did you ever get your transmission issue fixed???!
I should post in the Foretravel Sighting thread. Two so far, passed a GV today near a Walmart in Missoula. We were in the jeep. A few days ago we passed (in their driveway) near Rattlesnake Creek, a very nice 36 foot Unicoach. Late 90's.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2017, 03:48:15 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2017, 03:48:15 pm
Thanks.
Please keep us posted-- both on what is wrong AND if they can tell you, how to disable the retarder to allow you to limp in in the future without the overheating issue.
Please keep us posted-- both on what is wrong AND if they can tell you, how to disable the retarder to allow you to limp in in the future without the overheating issue.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: DavidS on July 24, 2017, 09:14:54 pm
Post by: DavidS on July 24, 2017, 09:14:54 pm
Since I installed my vmspc I have more info than I really need to know ( I'm an idiot so those lights work for me lol)
My retarder temps go up and down while driving and not in use.. normal? When I am using what is the max temp to start worrying ? Mine turns yellow at 200 I think.. red at 230 ish or so? Trans temps are never that high.
My oil temps are in the 200+ range .. is that normal also?
My retarder temps go up and down while driving and not in use.. normal? When I am using what is the max temp to start worrying ? Mine turns yellow at 200 I think.. red at 230 ish or so? Trans temps are never that high.
My oil temps are in the 200+ range .. is that normal also?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Tom Lang on July 24, 2017, 09:20:08 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on July 24, 2017, 09:20:08 pm
My retarder temps go up and down while driving and not in use.. normal?
Yes. You are not measuring the retarder temperature, you are measuring the transmission fluid temperature near the retarder, and the transmission is working.
Yes. You are not measuring the retarder temperature, you are measuring the transmission fluid temperature near the retarder, and the transmission is working.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: DavidS on July 24, 2017, 09:21:15 pm
Post by: DavidS on July 24, 2017, 09:21:15 pm
Perfect.. ty
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 25, 2017, 01:07:00 am
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 25, 2017, 01:07:00 am
On our coach dash tranny gauge was controlled by a temp sender screwed into a 1/8" threaded hole in one of the large coolant elbows on bottom-front of tranny. OEM choice was to measure tranny fluid temps returning from tranny cooler. We removed sender, plugged hole, drilled & tapped a hole in the other line, going to tranny cooler. Now dash gauge reads the hotter fluid just after the retarder. We see temps over 250 when heading down mountains, then immediately run cooler as soon as retarding is reduced. A more realistic temp reading.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 03:57:45 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 03:57:45 pm
Got the call at 12:30L. Going in right after lunch. Started her up after sitting since Saturday. Retarder temps after warm up and then driving less than 5 minutes were at 270 degrees with the retarder switch in the Off position.
Wish me luck
Wish me luck
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: DavidS on July 26, 2017, 04:10:58 pm
Post by: DavidS on July 26, 2017, 04:10:58 pm
I can't see the trans being warmed up in five min on a feeeway let alone the retarder actually being hot in five min.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 04:13:42 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 04:13:42 pm
Exactly what the tech said when he watched it go up. He is currently in the library researching this. Never heard of it before. I first showed him the VMSPC and then we hooked up his laptop. Both recorded the high temps
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 26, 2017, 04:36:14 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 26, 2017, 04:36:14 pm
Ed,
Again, two separate questions for the tech:
1. What is the cause and remedy for your high temperatures?
2. Is there a way to disable the retarded to allow "limp in"?
Again, two separate questions for the tech:
1. What is the cause and remedy for your high temperatures?
2. Is there a way to disable the retarded to allow "limp in"?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Bill Willett on July 26, 2017, 05:33:06 pm
Post by: Bill Willett on July 26, 2017, 05:33:06 pm
What code did the tech find.
To my way of thinking, the oil in the transmission, is the same oil in the retarder, what is the dash gauge reading.
To my way of thinking, the oil in the transmission, is the same oil in the retarder, what is the dash gauge reading.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 05:45:13 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 05:45:13 pm
Ed,
Again, two separate questions for the tech:
1. What is the cause and remedy for your high temperatures?
2. Is there a way to disable the retarded to allow "limp in"?
I did ask him if the retarder could be disabled and he replied that it could be done electrically, but we did not get into the nitty gritty. He also mentioned they (Allison) no longer used the accumulator tank.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 06:07:48 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 26, 2017, 06:07:48 pm
He did not find codes, Bill. I know it is all the same tranny fluid. At times, there was a difference of some fifty degrees between retarder temps and tranny temps. This was probably due to the temps being recorded from different locations. Here is this quote from Barry and Cindy a little earlier in this thread.
"On our coach dash tranny gauge was controlled by a temp sender screwed into a 1/8" threaded hole in one of the large coolant elbows on bottom-front of tranny. OEM choice was to measure tranny fluid temps returning from tranny cooler."
"On our coach dash tranny gauge was controlled by a temp sender screwed into a 1/8" threaded hole in one of the large coolant elbows on bottom-front of tranny. OEM choice was to measure tranny fluid temps returning from tranny cooler."
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 27, 2017, 12:16:52 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 27, 2017, 12:16:52 pm
Ok, something caused the "Retarder Valve" to stick. If you have the schematic for the retarder it is part 54 on the schematic.
To answer Brett's question #2
Yes, by disabling the retarder solenoid. (pretty much the same thing as turning off the switch)
However in my case this would not have helped as the retarder valve was already STUCK.
The tech is not sure what cause the valve to stick. More digging.
They are working on numbers now. Two possible scenarios.
Ed,
Again, two separate questions for the tech:
1. What is the cause and remedy for your high temperatures?
2. Is there a way to disable the retarded to allow "limp in"?
To answer Brett's question #2
Yes, by disabling the retarder solenoid. (pretty much the same thing as turning off the switch)
However in my case this would not have helped as the retarder valve was already STUCK.
The tech is not sure what cause the valve to stick. More digging.
They are working on numbers now. Two possible scenarios.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 27, 2017, 12:26:13 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 27, 2017, 12:26:13 pm
Ed,
Yes, thanks for the information. Understand the issue could be either electric or mechanical.
So, a mechanical fix (whether removing the solenoid, pulling its plunger, etc (that is what we need to know) would be the bomb-proof answer to the "how do I limp home" question.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Yes, thanks for the information. Understand the issue could be either electric or mechanical.
So, a mechanical fix (whether removing the solenoid, pulling its plunger, etc (that is what we need to know) would be the bomb-proof answer to the "how do I limp home" question.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 27, 2017, 12:48:33 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 27, 2017, 12:48:33 pm
Ed,
Yes, thanks for the information. Understand the issue could be either electric or mechanical.
So, a mechanical fix (whether removing the solenoid, pulling its plunger, etc (that is what we need to know) would be the bomb-proof answer to the "how do I limp home" question.
Inquiring minds want to know.
The tech said I do not have a "plunger", I have a valve spool, Part 54 on the schematic. I asked about pulling the valve spool. He said no, I would have a large internal leak. Are we talking about the same part, Brett? It's all Greek to me. I can't find a schematic for the retarder on line (though Allison will sell me one). The tech had his schematic open and I peeked.
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 27, 2017, 01:03:18 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 27, 2017, 01:03:18 pm
Ed,
I have no first hand knowledge of the valve/solenoid. Just trying to see if we can get "how do I get home/to the nearest repair facility" for those with retarders.
That is the reason for my questions. I just ASSUME that there is an open and a closed position that controls retarder function, and speculate that in one position, there will be zero retarder function.
I have no first hand knowledge of the valve/solenoid. Just trying to see if we can get "how do I get home/to the nearest repair facility" for those with retarders.
That is the reason for my questions. I just ASSUME that there is an open and a closed position that controls retarder function, and speculate that in one position, there will be zero retarder function.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pamela & Mike on July 27, 2017, 04:05:46 pm
Post by: Pamela & Mike on July 27, 2017, 04:05:46 pm
Ed,
We are on the road and are late to chime in. I don't have a print handy to reference your numbers.
Is the valve you are talking about mounted on the accumulator tank end?
Does it look something like this? (there is several versions) Allison retarder air valve (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31477.msg277542#msg277542)
If this isn't what you are talking about just disregard the following.
If so the way you disable it so you can get on down the road is:
1. Pull the little electrical connection after you have turned off the retarder switch. It is just a push/pull no/off.
2. Drain air from air system dry tanks
3. Remove the air line that feeds this valve and plug the air line. This requires an air line plug.
4. Unscrew the valve from the accumulator tank to release the trapped air. Be careful with your eyes.
5. Either completely remove the valve and plug the hole with a 1/4" npt plug or after the air has escaped just screw valve back up to keep trash out of the accumulator tank.
6. Make sure that the retarder switch is in the off position for the second time.
7. Wash hands and head on down the road. Just remember that you only have service brakes.
Pamela & Mike
We are on the road and are late to chime in. I don't have a print handy to reference your numbers.
Is the valve you are talking about mounted on the accumulator tank end?
Does it look something like this? (there is several versions) Allison retarder air valve (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31477.msg277542#msg277542)
If this isn't what you are talking about just disregard the following.
If so the way you disable it so you can get on down the road is:
1. Pull the little electrical connection after you have turned off the retarder switch. It is just a push/pull no/off.
2. Drain air from air system dry tanks
3. Remove the air line that feeds this valve and plug the air line. This requires an air line plug.
4. Unscrew the valve from the accumulator tank to release the trapped air. Be careful with your eyes.
5. Either completely remove the valve and plug the hole with a 1/4" npt plug or after the air has escaped just screw valve back up to keep trash out of the accumulator tank.
6. Make sure that the retarder switch is in the off position for the second time.
7. Wash hands and head on down the road. Just remember that you only have service brakes.
Pamela & Mike
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: wolfe10 on July 27, 2017, 04:20:52 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 27, 2017, 04:20:52 pm
Ed,
If Mike's excellent write-up is the answer (a temporary fix approved by Allison), let's post that as a separate thread!
You might copy his post or just forward it to the shop and/or the guy at Allison the tech is working with for their feedback.
If Mike's excellent write-up is the answer (a temporary fix approved by Allison), let's post that as a separate thread!
You might copy his post or just forward it to the shop and/or the guy at Allison the tech is working with for their feedback.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 31, 2017, 08:27:57 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 31, 2017, 08:27:57 pm
Anyone call an Allison shop yet for advice?
Pierce
Before I forget, I'd like to thank you Pierce for all the info you have provided to me in this thread.
Today, Monday.... In the shop at 08:00L .... No parts... Out the shop ..... back in tomorrow at 08:00
It's been a long weekend, at least Lee Brice was playing at Big Sky Brewery Thursday night.
My tech at I State Truck was off on Friday, so we had to wait until today to get back in the shop. They ordered parts but are still waiting the "overnight shipment" The last thing to report was the retarder valve was stuck. He put it back together so we would have the coach to sleep in for the weekend.
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on July 31, 2017, 09:01:37 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on July 31, 2017, 09:01:37 pm
We are on the road and are late to chime in. I don't have a print handy to reference your numbers.
Is the valve you are talking about mounted on the accumulator tank end?
Does it look something like this? (there is several versions) Allison retarder air valve
If this isn't what you are talking about just disregard the following.
Pamela & Mike
I grabbed the attached photo from an on line auction site. This is referred to as a "retarder valve" on the schematic.
So to answer your question, No.
But thank you for replying. It is an excellent write up.
I do have this nagging question in the back of my head. No one has looked at the accumulator tank or air valve. Doesn't this force the transmission fluid in to the retarder? If it was malfunctioning could the fluid get stuck in the retarder and heat up?
Just to clarify NO feeling of transmission retarding when I release the throttle or press the brake pedal. The retard switch is in the Off position.
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Pamela & Mike on August 01, 2017, 07:42:57 am
Post by: Pamela & Mike on August 01, 2017, 07:42:57 am
I do have this nagging question in the back of my head. No one has looked at the accumulator tank or air valve.
Doesn't this force the transmission fluid in to the retarder?
If it was malfunctioning could the fluid get stuck in the retarder and heat up?
Just to clarify NO feeling of transmission retarding when I release the throttle or press the brake pedal. The retard switch is in the Off position.
Ed,
The short answer,
1. Yes
2. Really not stuck but will cause the fluid temp to rise.
3. If the piston was stuck or air locked you should feel and have retardation.
As a side note that valve in the above picture looks like it is for a 3000 series. This comment is just from looks, so don't take it as gospel as parts for the 3000 and 4000 look a lot alike and some are the same. The reason for the comment is do you have a 3060R or the 3000R?
Pamela & Mike
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on August 01, 2017, 12:14:30 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on August 01, 2017, 12:14:30 pm
As a side note that valve in the above picture looks like it is for a 3000 series. This comment is just from looks, so don't take it as gospel as parts for the 3000 and 4000 look a lot alike and some are the same. The reason for the comment is do you have a 3060R or the 3000R?
Pamela & Mike
Not my part, I grabbed the photo from an eBay auction. Closest I could find.
From the plate on the side of transmission, model MD3066.
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on August 02, 2017, 04:28:06 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on August 02, 2017, 04:28:06 pm
It is/was a broken snap ring. The valve that was stuck has another metal part on one end that was secured with a snap ring. The snap ring broke and scoured the metal on both the valve and the inside of the sleeve it slid in and out.
A new valve came with parts kit but since the sleeve is scratched the tech said it may or may not work if put back together.
So I can buy this part for two Coach Buck's or a remanufactured transmission with retarder for 4.8 CB's. I'd be saving additional labor and the parts for rebuilding the retarder.
I opted for a remanned transmission since cost is similar and better warranty on the remanned transmission.
A BROKEN SNAP RING !!!
Ed
A new valve came with parts kit but since the sleeve is scratched the tech said it may or may not work if put back together.
So I can buy this part for two Coach Buck's or a remanufactured transmission with retarder for 4.8 CB's. I'd be saving additional labor and the parts for rebuilding the retarder.
I opted for a remanned transmission since cost is similar and better warranty on the remanned transmission.
A BROKEN SNAP RING !!!
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: FourTravelers on August 02, 2017, 08:56:09 pm
Post by: FourTravelers on August 02, 2017, 08:56:09 pm
It is/was a broken snap ring. The valve that was stuck has another metal part on one end that was secured with a snap ring. The snap ring broke and scoured the metal on both the valve and the inside of the sleeve it slid in and out.
A new valve came with parts kit but since the sleeve is scratched the tech said it may or may not work if put back together.
So I can buy this part for two Coach Buck's or a remanufactured transmission with retarder for 4.8 CB's. I'd be saving additional labor and the parts for rebuilding the retarder.
I opted for a remanned transmission since cost is similar and better warranty on the remanned transmission.
A BROKEN SNAP RING !!!
Ed
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Mark Duckworth on August 14, 2017, 07:27:33 am
Post by: Mark Duckworth on August 14, 2017, 07:27:33 am
Ed,
Are you back on the road with the reman trans?
Are you back on the road with the reman trans?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on August 16, 2017, 06:22:36 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on August 16, 2017, 06:22:36 pm
I must have missed something here........ Two Coach Bucks! for a VALVE?? :o
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Lance Camper on August 16, 2017, 06:24:06 pm
Post by: Lance Camper on August 16, 2017, 06:24:06 pm
Ed,
Are you back on the road with the reman trans?
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: FourTravelers on August 16, 2017, 07:30:52 pm
Post by: FourTravelers on August 16, 2017, 07:30:52 pm
Thanks for the reply Ed, is troubling to think that a broken snap ring could result in damages that expensive. Just goes to show you that it doesn't take much to go wrong to put you on the side of the road.
Title: Re: Retarder Temperature Rising, but retarder set to Off
Post by: Mark Duckworth on August 16, 2017, 08:18:52 pm
Post by: Mark Duckworth on August 16, 2017, 08:18:52 pm
Ed -- Glad to hear it. About 30 days, I think? Oh well, I rather be stuck there than in Houston or LA (no offense, I've lived in both). I'd take Montana for a forced layover.