Hi everyone. So much for my proactive maintenance, had picked up a loud noise in the left year near st Anthony dunes on our way to visit mr metzger.
Tap brakes and noise went away. Came back. Like sheet metal banging. Loud.
Pulled into a small shop and he crawled under but could find nothing readily wrong and too busy to pull things down.
Ok drove ok at highway speeds. Minimal parking brake.
Bang. Scraping noises. Coach slowed quickly.
Crawled underneath and a broke part of the rotor was stuck between the housing and rear wheel. Grinding off a sliver of aluminum.
Jammed. Backed up coach a foot. Clunk. Crawled underneath and picked up the rotor in three pieces.
Coach drives ok at low speeds. Limped into Idaho falls.
They are pulling the left rear tires now.
If driveable may go straight home, 1000 miles. Three wheel brakes and a retarder.
Then the cell rings and my 90 year old maw in Vegas may have fallen and paramedics dispatched.
Will report back
Yikes. Good luck. I broke a rotor in an suv.. easy fix with $300. But stopping an rv is a little more important. And probably 3 times as expensive...
Yup... Take care of Mother then worry about the brakes....
When we bought our coach the auction lot dummies and the "flipper" we bought from both just mashed the throttle and drove it with seized calipers and took out the wheel seals,rotors and the caliper & pads were toast as well.
There is a fairly good big truck garage on us-20 about half way between St Anthony and Great Falls . Do you need help ---I can and will come ---- Brad Metzger
Brad you are a saint. Naturally one stuck inner lug. Will let you know. I called the places between here and Saint Anthony and all were either busy or like fleetpride did not work on coaches
I am wondering if you cage that wheel will it help you out in any way to prevent more damage.
John M
Look at the air chamber can on that wheel. You will see a T bolt that has a nut holding it across the aluminum part of the chamber. Take the nut off and pull the t bolt off of the brake chamber. remove the rubber plug that is in the center of the can. put the t bolt into the can and turn it 1/4 turn to engage it into the slot put the washer and nut on and tighten it all the way down. this will cage the spring and that brake will not be moving anymore. That should get you home where you can fix it under better circumstances.
Note If you chock your wheels and release brakes the air will move the spring back and it will be way easier to cage that spring.
Also after spring is caged when you park only one wheel will be engaged when parking brake is set. once brake is caged it will no longer do anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2fK5ofJQ4c
You may want to see if the brake pads can slide out of the bracket with no rotor in the middle. Would not be nice to get part way some where and have the pad fall out and jam on the wheel.
Something similar happened to mine but the brake and the caliper welded together and sheared around the axle.
I was able to drive but could not stop very good.. I would not drive very far or in high traffic. Find a shop and have it fixed ASAP!
Good luck and if you need anything.. we are home and in town so I can check on your mom if needed
Keep it coming as the shop here is not used to these.
I like the caged brake idea. I think the coach is driveable subject to getting the inner wheel off.
Can the brake be caged with the inner on? And the pad removed?
1000 miles to home on I15. Hot
Drove it here about 15 miles at 30-40. Coach stopped ok.
If the rotors outer edge is gone clean then the inner "hat" is just a spacer between the inner rim and hub. Correct.
Yes review the YouTube video above. You can do it.
John M.
Can the pad be removed with the inner tire on?
I don't think you need to worry about the pads falling out. You should be able to get pads out with the wheel on. Cage the parking brake, and cap the service brake line. I drove mine 1000 miles home no problem. Keep in mind only one wheel will be holding when the parking brake is engaged.
You don't need to cap the service line with the brake caged nothing happens nothing will move in this situation. Cage it clean debris and shoot for the moon. By the picture you have nothing left of the disc.If you have helper springs they are pushing the discs away anyhow.
Edit : I am wrong cap service line, My Bad.
With the brake caged everything still moves with the service side. Air still moves the slack which still turns the shaft and strokes the caliper. I do not know if the caliper can over stroke and run the piston off of the helix cut gear. You can leave the hub part of the rotor on. If it is mounted between the rim and the hub you should leave it on to allow correct depth for the inner stud to hold the inner wheel. If the rotor in bolted onboard of the hub then it will make no difference and you can do it when you get somewhere you trust.
Like Toby said, the service side will still operate possibly damaging the slack adjuster/ caliper. FWIW I would cap off both lines that way you know their are no issues.
Your guys help is greatly appreciated. I finally crawled under there this morning and other than a medium gounged inside rim surface and the shiny silver disk brake remaining hub mount every "looks" good. No cracks.
The shop is not having the best luck getting the last inner wheel stud off. They are gone till Monday morning.
Can the operating air lines be removed from the brake system and capped with the wheel on?
If you cap off the 2(?) brake lines then the brake does not need caging I assume?
Amazingly strong assembly to spit out a rotor in three pieces and not destroy everything IMO.
As long as the hub end of the axle is not damaged then the wheels ability to roll and power the wheels should be unaffected?
Weird failure.
So cap the lines and remount the parts and drive off carefully?
Why the rotor broke is of some interest. One side of the rotor is fairly heavily gouged from that sides pad. The other a bit better. Rotor is not rusty and the broken off remainder of the rotors "hat" is shiny silver all the way around its edge. No old dark area from any previous cracking.
The broken rotor pieces all look the same on the broken edges. Nice grain structure visible. No flaws visible.
I would almost think it would take a side load. Pins were serviced 10-15k Miles ago and I did not see their condition personally the exposed ends appear clean.
No heavy use just prior to the failure. Post mortem will have to wait till home I think.
So what's everyone's opinion? Cap the brake lines and drive it? Inner rims square edge is ground down.
Do I need pictures here?
I will need to maintain interstate speed as I 15 is a busy freeway.
No idea if the caliper itself is damaged as it's not visible yet.
Capping the lines I would think takes the brake assembly out of use and now it's just a dumb wheel assembly spinning on the hub correct?
What fun....
Thanks for everyone's info. Seems a lot of us have been there, done that.
Probably going to take our toad and drive over and visit brad today.
Just cage the brake. To get side load the axle bearings would have to be pretty loose. Why the problem with the inner stud? Is the square rounded off. Big pipe wrench with cheater pipe, the inner nuts are readily available. Probably a "righty tighty lefty loosy" mistake previously. The left being left hand threads on your year coach. Is there any sign of the rotor getting hot?
Let's re-think that.
Sure, capping the service brake line would keep the service brakes from applying the brakes.
BUT, the emergency/parking brake is spring applied AIR RELEASED. So it WILL have to be caged to release it. And, I don't see a gain from capping that line. The caging will keep it from applying when the emergency brake is set. Air AND caging will keep it from applying when driving (emergency brake off).
If there is no rotor why worry about caging?
The pistons can "over-extend" since no pads and no rotor.
Makes sense. I corrected my reply.
Yes you can cap the lines and as the rotor is completely gone it would not be necessary to cage the parking brake. However you are under there it doesn't take 5 minutes to cage it. Be it me I would see if I could find a Napa open today get a couple of plugs, they should know what size for an air brake line. Crawl under cage the brake plug the lines. Monday have the shop put the wheel back on and get on with what you need to do.
Bruce,
This is all theory for me, since I have never worked on a brake with missing rotor and pads (that is the GOOD NEWS).
But, could not the spring applied emergency/parking brake over-extend the pistons if no pads/rotors. Guess I am perhaps being over-conservative to make sure no over-extension could happen.
At this point the piston has extended as far as it can go. No rotor and spring brake on.
Bret, as craneman said everything has already extended as far a it will go. However as you are under there it takes 5 minutes to cage the spring brake just to be sure. The reason for capping the lines is to keep the assembly from trying to move. In the case of the service side if the line where still connected the slack adjuster would continue to try to adjust every time the brake pedal was applied, possibly damaging it. The caliper and slack adjuster are expensive items, it just doesn't take much to make sure anymore damage is notdone you are under there anyway.
The question (I have no answer) is whether subsequent applications of the uncaged parking brake will cause the slack adjuster to continue to extend/over-extend (if the parking brake is not caged).
Brett, I don't know if additional damage could be done, but property adjusted the parking brake travel is 2-2 1/2 ". Without the rotor in play the travel would bottom out the chamber travel 4-5" rather violently. It couldn't possibly do it any good. It will also transfer that travel to the caliper. The caging process is not a big deal 3/4 wrench remove the tool from the side of the chamber install it in the end of the chamber and tighten the nut until the it will not tighten any further. It's got to be done anyway before repairs can be made.
So the concensus opinion is to cage the parking brake and to cap the line.
I think the pad(s) may be still in the caliper from a comment the mechanic made
"Most conservative" answer:
Remove pads
Cage parking brake
Block off line to service brakes
Fix as soon as reasonably possible.
Remember if pads are replaced on that side to put new/the same ones on the other side. And I am a fan of the retract springs.
Brakes had the assist springs installed.
Can the pads, if present, be removed with the inner wheel on?
Needs to go 1k miles at highway speeds safely
I don't believe the slide pins will clear the wheel. I had to make a Rube Goldberg device to pull the pins. Here are some pictures.
helper springs (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31008.msg271318#msg271318)
One wheel parking brake and three wheel braking and two wheel retardation should get us from Idaho falls to so. cal carefully after caging the parking brake on that side and after removing and blocking the air line on that wheel.
Cage the chamber before you remove and cap the air lines. Then you can use the air to compress the spring and save yourself several long minutes of cranking on the nut for the cage bolt against the tension of the spring for all of the travel.
So I would need to start the motor and build air pressure then release the parking brake with the coach tires blocked?
with the tires remounted?
Then remove the brake air line?
Sounds like an expert job.
The shop might not be comfortable with being under the coach with the motor running and the one good parking brake off?
Yes. Wheels still on and chocked. Build air. Insert cage bolt with nut all the way at the end. ( less spring tension so it's easier to get the bolt in the hole of the cage bracket sometimes it migrates when compressed) ( insert and turn 1/4 turn and pull on it to make sure it engages) push in park brake button. Run it down the spring is already compressed so it won't be hard until the last turn or two. Tighten with a wrench. Release park brake slack should not move. Remove lines and cap.
You don't have to have the motor running, just the air pressure built up. After caging and releasing the parking brake there will be no pressure on the brake lines. If the shop doesn't have fittings for the lines, there are pipe threads where the AN fittings hooks to the hoses. Remove the fittings and install pipe plugs.
I have not seen any mention of the rear service brake "compounding valve" that is there to prevent both the spring and service brake from functioning at the same time. Is it something that needs discussing?
Barry the valve will not know the difference, the parking brake will be released while going down the road.
Inside the chamber both the park and service circuits are still kept separate as far as the air goes so capping lines is no different.
The anti compounding valve has access to both circuits and could be looked at as a suspected cause of brakes dragging along with the chamber itself. It's designed to allow the park system and the service system to operate but not have both gang up on the brakes an apply excessive pressure. Never seen it but I have been told without that valuable you can actually apply enough pressure to fracture brake shoes. I have seen them fail and allow park brake air to seep into the service side and either drag the brakes or create a leak at a qr valve. If that was the issue you should see dragging on both sides of the drive axle.
That valve only comes into play when the parking brake is on and the treadle valve is pushed. It equalizes pressure in both chambers. With the parking brake off it does nothing. The issue you are talking about is when the seal between the chambers leaks. It used to be a problem with "California wheels" not being centered and shaking the chamber.
I do some things that are calculated that many would argue are imprudent. However, I'm pretty certain I would not drive 1000 miles with one of my rear brakes not working at all.
A) Unlike a car, a truck or heavy vehicle gets much more braking form the rear axles than the front axles
B) If you have an air system failure, you now only have one spring brake to rely on. Even in good conditions, 2 spring cans for emergency stopping with air failure may not be enough.
C) Though retarder greatly reduces brake usage, it can fail.
D) Sh*t happens, and try explaining that when 30,000lbs is rolling down the hill with 30-40% of it's braking gone.
Going 20-50 miles to a shop....maybe. 1000 miles?!!???!!?
Had a similar problem and traffic stopped and I didnt.. I would not do it even at 45 mph all the way... it takes a long distance to stop.
"If this stuff was easy, little kids would do it." My quote.
Not for a minute would I consider driving any distance with a disabled brake intelligent.
Like a lot of my posts I have stated what I may do is not reccomended and if you feel uncomfortable do not do this.
That being said the availablity of professional repair in this area is zero.
Parts too unusual. No chassis. No parts list. No experienced shops or mechanics.
I have built race vehicles for 50 years. Airplane tech.
The 25% braking loss minus the fully functional retarder offset by the fact that a incorrect repair percentage probably exceeds the less braking risk to me.
That its a rear versus the steer is a plus plus I have tested the three wheel braking on a short drive to the shop. Doable.
Unless you want to flat bed the coach a thousand miles? Two cats in coach. Tough to put them in a tow car for that long.
No black or white only shades of grey.
Two miles from I 15. Mostly flat ground.
All bad choices. No one within a long drive can fix this.
Oh, there is a camping world seven miles away. Oh joy. Should I have them learn how to fix a meritor disk brake system on my coach?
I almost kept driving after picking up the broken rotor but I may be crazy but not stupid. I hope.
That's why I stopped where I am at for a confab with my fellow wizards. And to look closely. My home work.
I have had a lot of unusual driving/race experiences in 2 million miles. Still here.
Coach actually had the left rear partially working for a period.
Slight braking pull was what I noticed. No idea why the failure but I will figure it out later.
The cautious answer, of course, cannot be wrong.
Offset by the odds and time of a remote repair I will have to furnish the parts for and watch while they learn how to install them.
The first shop said the not yet failed rear brake was stone cold. The other side hot. Worked ok. Three wheel.
Rotor failed in ten miles.
With the pro advise I have received and with the mods suggested I think I will limp home fine.
Fingers and toes crossed.
Again. Absolutely not recommended. Stupid.
Unless you think you have a feel for these things. Then you are probably wrong.
Bored here. Need to get down the road. Plus they are having trouble with the last inner wheel stud.
Better to put the wheels back on I feel. Block the parking brake. Cap the brake line. Pins are in the caliper so the pads are ok.
Calculated deal.
Way glad I stopped and am in a closed shops parking lot to juggle the choices.
Probably would have made it. Probably.
The way your help changes things make the probable almost a certainty.
For that thanks from all four of us.
Regardless of what happens.....
Good luck with whatever you choose and drive careful ...
I see a camping world is close..
Id rather drive 1000 miles with no brakes than go there..
That's what I thought. The fleetpride service local does not work on motorhomes nor does the kenworth shop or any local guys.
These people were nice enough to try to help and to hook me up to 30 amp in their parking lot.
Bob my personal opinion is run the interstate, at a slightly above posted minimum rate of speed. Let others pass you, so what. You have essentially have 2 braking systems and one axle out of four is compromised. Most vehicles have less to work with. Continue searching for a shop for a proper repair no doubt. If traffic should get congested exit and take a break and wait it out. Search out to find any construction zones. Know your current visual and braking limits and don't excede them.
Bob,
Been following the thread with interest but due to my advanced ignorance, I've kept my mouth shut - until now.
You, and the group here have gobs more experience than l - what ever way you decide to go, good luck and be careful!
If you do head out, I'm sure all your brothers here expect frequent updates so we know you and yours are safe.
I changed my rear rotor myself. NAPA can get the rotor. Any reasonable truck mechanic can do the rest of the work. The hardest part is getting the hub off. And that isn't hard, it's just heavy.
Once the hub is off, the rotor just unbolts and bolts on. There is nothing special. Replace the oil seal while in there ($15 part?).
I did it with my friend in his front yard. I could do it along side the road with the tools I carry in my RV, if needed. In fact, taking the tires off was probably the hardest part.
Do as you choose. Rear brakes on a heavy vehicle are more than 50% of the braking.
Live Feed, Bob?
Y'all be careful.
Only issue with a Napa replacement is that the rotor came out in three pieces.
No idea if anything else brake wise is damaged. Pads still there but probably scraped up...
Bob?
Great.
First we kill off Nomadic Nubian,,,,,,,
Now Bob is toast!
The rotor I got from NAPA was a genuine Merritor rotor.
Went to visit brad and Phyllis at the dunes. Hospitality was in full force as we both were taken for rides in the dunes..
More to follow. Too much excitement
For all of you waiting with baited breath to see if the rumors of our early demise are true they are not.
We are in a rest area in Utah for the night after around 415 miles today.
The shop was nice enough as there never was a ticket created in their shop to put the wheels back on and cage the parking brake and cap the brake line.
Slowly, cautiously increased speed. Coach runs like normal.
Only difference is the 10 to zero speed reduction with cold brakes.
Takes more pedal pushing than normal.
Back to normal speeds but bring cautious about distancing myself from traffic.
As long as it is a rear it seems to be doable to,disable one brake.
That being said the weak,parking brake requires flat ground to hold well and as mentioned here an emergency stop would be problematic
I think the rear rotor had cracked before as I noticed an increased grinding noise level recently before this 2300 mile trip.
Judging by the gouges in the one side of the rotor I assume that side had an unlevel surface and the crack must have protruded enough to grind against the hard pad.
500 miles through Vegas left for tomorrow.
Diesel went up,from $2.39 two weeks ago at the Fillmore ,Utah maverick fuel station to $2.59 today
Be safe! If you have wheel chocks, use them when parked. Just don't forget about them.
John M.
To remove a broken inner Bud wheel lug nut, you need to take outer wheel off and at the broken lug nut screw a outer lug nut on the broken inner lug nut as best you can and weld them together. Then you can turn inner lug off using impact on nut that you welded to it. I have done this many times when I worked on heavy trucks a few years ago.
Bill
Was not stripped or broken. The shops snap on gun would not remove the one nut. Thanks for the welding tip.
That good, any shop with a one inch impact should be able to remove it then.
Bill
That's what they had. A long air line probably reduced its power just enough to not rip it off
And large id line. A lot of places just use the 3/8 line that the normal air tools run on. Smart money is to put in a dedicated 1/2 or 5/8 port with that size hose to get enough air to a 1 inch gun.
I knew better but did not need to antagonize them. A hundred feet of 3/8" line with small ends doomed this.
One inner was way overtight. They got the others off slowly. Gave up. Put it together. Block the wheel.
The shop foreman was paranoid about liabity until he found nothing was in their computer and no paperwork has been done.
I was a ghost. Good
As long as I tipped the mechanic per the owner she was cool about trusting me to know what I was doing.
Made it home today at 4:30. 915 miles since yesterday mid morning.
Cold brake slow speed stopping was much harder.
Everything else was ok
Home sweet home, sleep may come easy after your ordeal.
Happy Ending to a Harrowing Tale. ^.^d
Thanks for all of your help and advise. Would have been much less of a safe drive home without it.
Now I need a good source for the rotors and pads and maybe the brake chambers themselves
After I bought rotor from NAPA (they had it in warehouse, so I got it next day) for $299 or $399, I found one on ebay for like $100 new in box! Just my luck.
Took the coach in today for a Tuesday appointment and in passing their parking lot noticed two new freightliner chassis coaches with the drive rear wheels off. ,
Service advisor thinks that the rear drum brakes had the wrong parts installed new by .Freightliner as the brakes over stroked.
Can't tighten up the slack adjusters to allow full drum brake shoe contact.
2.000 and 3,000 mile new coaches that my service dealer caught on the required safety inspection.
Advisor said the chassis's serial number were quite a bit apart so there may be a lot of these chassis out there.
Apparently the Budd Alcoa wheels are no longer made for our 97 but the big fmca tire dealer who mounted mine had a single spare rim hiding in the back of his buildings and will mount my good tire on his replacement rim when the shop gets the rear tires off hopefully tomorrow,
Replacing both rotors and pads. Will see if anything else was damaged by the rotor failure.
Will save the gouged rim for someone's future use as these are not available.
Thanks again for the knowledgeable help. Got us home. Safely.
Shop said this morning that meritor only suggests the helper springs on the front axle?
Plus they had to pull the rear hubs as the rotors bolt to the hubs?
No access for power tools without pulling the hubs and then replacing the seals?
I had helper springs installed on my rears when I replaced rotors/pads a couple of years ago.
I wonder when they changed to "front axle" for the helper springs. When I talked to Meritor 4 years ago they said all axles? I have helper springs on all four axles, cant see how it can hurt anything. As always DWMYFG.
I bet if you call back and talk to a different person, you'll get a different answer.
For those who may need the "Budd Alcoa wheels" which were used until 1997 or 1998, you may find them available at Pete's Tire in California. The manager told me at their booth during the Quartzsite RV show a couple years ago that they have Budd wheels which were removed to install the super wide Michelin rear 22.5 tires.
Good source. Thsnks
My tire guys rim was new,
The PO on my coach had purchased the springs, but had been talked out of installing them by Wayne. I took them to MOT, had them installed on all four. I had a disk hang going between Silverton & Ouray, I'd put them on the steering wheel if I even suspected it MAY prevent a recurrence of that trip.
Wow, that's a heck of a location to have a mechanical problem. What was the outcome?