In a recent thread, we discussed ways to integrate a 110V air compressor into the coach air system. Link to thread:
Pancake compressor (split from How long to build air pressure?) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31691.0)
Mark Duckworth blazed the trail with a very neat installation. I decided to try emulating his work, with a few modifications. Don mentioned the QC3 filter, and I liked the fact that it was a little less expensive than Mark's filter system, so I bought one. I also purchased the California Air Tools Model 2010A compressor from Walmart. Links to these items are in the earlier thread.
Don brought up the fact that the QC3 filter is supposed to be installed 30' from the compressor. I did some reading on the subject, and learned that Don's guess about the reasoning behind this requirement was correct. The air coming out of a compressor can get hot...sometimes VERY hot. How hot depends mainly on how hard the compressor is working. The heated air carries moisture, which will eventually precipitate out as condensation when the air cools. SO, the reason for having 30' of flow line between the compressor and the QC3 filter is to allow the air to cool. Only then can the desiccant in the filter do it's job.
In my installation, I attempted to provide a means to cool the air between the compressor and the filter. My flow line is a little short at about 22', but I tried to compensate for that shortcoming with my choice of material. I used 3/8" soft copper line, hoping that the metal would be effective at radiating the heat. As you will see, it actually works pretty good! The hot air exits the compressor, travels around the copper pipe loop, and then dumps into the aluminum compressor tank, where it is further cooled. Then and only then does it pass through the QC3 filter, and on to the coach wet tank. I can drain any condensate accumulation at three points: the compressor tank drain, the QC3 filter drain, and the OEM wet tank drain. I hope this will provide sufficiently dry and clean air to the coach system.
The compressor cooling loop seems to be working great! After 10 minutes of running the flow line coming out of the compressor is so hot that I can't touch it for more than a second. After going around my loop, the line going back into the tank is only slightly warm. The aluminum tank did not feel any warmer than ambient temp. I will take some readings with my infrared temp gun over the next few days, and report back with more "scientific" temperature data.
I timed the compressor to see how it performed. Starting with the coach air system completely empty, it takes the compressor 10 minutes to bring the system up to cutout at 120psi. When I use air out of the system, the compressor cuts in at 90psi, and then it takes 2 minutes to recover from 90psi back to 120psi. I feel this will be perfectly satisfactory for my anticipated usage.
Having this compressor installed means that whenever our coach is plugged into shore power (or on generator), the air system will always be at operating pressure. The leveling system will always be at travel pressure. The air step will work all the time. When starting the coach, I will have immediate throttle control and parking brake release pressure. Plus, as part of this project I added a neat little Northern Tool 25' pull-out air hose reel to my "tool chest compartment", so I will have convenient air pressure for filling bike/car/coach tires anytime I need it.
By the way, I left the 12V HWH compressor in place, and fully functional, so it will be available (if needed) when we are on inverter power.
I'll load some photos in 3 posts. Any questions, please ask. All comments, or suggestions for improvements, cheerfully accepted.
More photos:
Last set:
Chuck,
I love it. Great job. Thanks for blazing the trail for me. My coach has the exact same layout so I'm pretty sure I'll be doing this same setup this winter.
One question. How's the noise level from that "quite" California Air Tools Model 2010A compressor?
see ya
ken
The noise level is not bad at all. Not totally silent, mind you. I could always hear our little HWH compressor when it was running, and I would say this new compressor makes only slightly more noise. I did do a little work on the rubber feet on the compressor to help reduce the sound. Added some additional damping in the form of some extra rubber pads and "bobbin" bushings I had on hand (photo below).
I also added some extra screws to the plywood platform it sits on. The platform was loose and rattling a little bit initially.
Standing in the bedroom, with the A/C units turned off, I can't hear the new compressor running. Of course, my hearing ain't perfect!
Nice job
Sweet! So to get the 22' of copper before the dryer, you went around three sides of the compartment? Glad to hear that cools effectively.
Don
Glad to know that the copper line worked out. I like the quick connects between the compressor and the rest of the system. Should make future compressor servicing a breeze! Did you incorporate any of the OEM filters into your new system? Wondering in particular about a desiccant filter downstream of the QC3.
The lowered sound level you get from the CAT 2010A is an enticing upgrade!
Nice job! ^.^d
Correct. I actually could have made the copper loop almost twice as long, because the coil of tubing I had on hand was 50' when I started. I thought about making a few back and forth "zig-zags" on the ceiling of the compartment, but decided that would be unnecessary complication. As it turned out, the length I used is doing a satisfactory job - any more (IMO) would be overkill.
The QC3 is the only filter between the compressor and the OEM wet tank. It is marketed as a 3-stage combination particulate filter, oil separator, and air dryer. The replaceable desiccant cartridge is pretty big, so hopefully will be sufficient for this application and last a reasonable length of time. It has a replaceable "telltale" disc that is supposed to show when the desiccant is used up. Just have to wait and see how long it keeps working. Live and learn!
For the one or two members who might actually be interested in this project, I have a few updates on my compressor install. I'm still messing with the details, and have made a few changes.
First thing I addressed was the drain valve on the compressor tank. Since I'm trying to remove as much water from the compressed air as possible, before it goes into the coach air system, I was not happy with the drain valve on the tank. It was coming out the bottom of the tank at a angle, I suppose to make turning the valve handle easier. Because of this, a good quantity of water would remain in the bottom of the tank that would (normally) never reach the drain valve. A decal on the tank says "tip tank to drain completely". Well, this wouldn't work for me because I have the compressor mounted in a "fixed" position, and because I want to be able to drain it while standing outside next to the bay door. So, I unbolted the tank, and added a couple metal brackets between the compressor frame and the tank. This repositioned the tank so the drain is pointing straight down. Problem solved! (Nylon ties on bottom brackets are temporary. I will eventually re-drill the brackets and use bolts.)
(Photos below show new drain valve orientation)
Thanks,
When I install mine I will do the same. I am thinks about putting a spitter on at the install also.
Next thing is noise. The compressor is quiet, but it still makes some noise, so I have been working to reduce it as much as possible. I'm trying two different approaches. First, I made up some fancy "vibration absorbing" feet for the compressor. I read about this stuff called Sorbothane, and decided to give it a try.
Sorbothane - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbothane)
Isolate It: Sorbothane Vibration Isolation Circular Disc Pad .5" (1.27cm)... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CQ4EZBI/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Ordered two sets of 4 pads in different durometer ratings: 30 and 50. Made up 4 double-decker sandwiches using the pads and rubber spacers. Attached them to the compressor as shown:
The fancy feet made a BIG difference in the amount of perceived vibration coming from the compressor. But, there was still some undesirable noise, so I tried another step. I had some 4mil foil + butyl rubber vibration damping material left over from a car stereo project about 10 years ago. It's called "Audio Barrier", and is a Chinese ripoff clone of DynaMat Extreme. Dug it out and found it to still be in good condition, so I said "What the heck...". Coated the entire underside of the stairwell with it. Even if it doesn't really do anything, it looks kinda cool!
Any input to the coaches air system must be dry air.
Not sure how you are entering the system so this is a general comment.
Wet air and cold puts ice into the brakes and corrodes things
End result (so far) is I have got the noise heard inside the coach down to what I would call a acceptable level. I can still hear it running, but it is not something that will bother me. (We'll have to see what the DW thinks on our next trip.) The vibration level felt inside the coach, especially in the stairwell area, is down to almost zero. Sorbothane is doing it's job!
Standing outside the coach you can hear the compressor running, but it is just a low-pitched humming noise. Probably not even noticeable to a neighboring camper.
I am still thinking of other steps that I might take, but will leave it like this for now. Anybody else has any ideas, speak up. This has become a fun and entertaining "science project", trying to reduce the noise/vibration to the lowest level possible. 8)
Thanks, Bob. If you feel like reading back over this entire thread, you will see that we are
attempting to address that concern.
Chuck,
Love the ingenuity of repositioning the tank drain.
Great job on mitigating the sound as well. Sound is transmitted both mechanically and through sound waves. Mechanical coupling is when the sound source (compressor in our case) is physically vibrating the structure and resulting in sound transmission. The new feet address that. The more common transmission of sound is through the air --- it is of course how loudspeakers work. Unfortunately it's also how the annoying subwoofer 2 cars back at the stoplight works. That's where the sound absorption material works. Great job hitting both means of unwanted acoustical transmission. ^.^d
Nice work Chuck, having a aux compressor for two years now I have always kind of lived with the noise, thanks for the great post will be making g some.changes to my system with your ideas, I really like your air line reel. Again great post.and thanks for sharing. ^.^d
Air hose reel is currently on sale at Northern Tool. I used the 1/4" x 26' "Mini" model ($25). I only need it for filling tires. They also have a somewhat larger (but similar design) 3/8" x 50' "Compact" model ($50). Mine seems to be working great mounted in a horizontal position.
I printed out the product page with the "online" sale price, and took it down to our local Northern Tool store. They were happy to sell me the reel for the sale price, no problem.
1/4in. Hose Reels | Air Hose Reels | Air Tools + Compressors | Northern Tool... (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_air-tools-compressors+air-hose-reels+1-4in.-hose-reels)
3/8in. Hose Reels | Air Hose Reels | Air Tools + Compressors | Northern Tool... (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_air-tools-compressors+air-hose-reels+3-8in.-hose-reels)
UPDATE -SAFETY NOTICE
I am sorry to report that my California Air Tools Model 2010A has died an untimely death. I wanted to get this info out to the Forum for anyone who has purchased this compressor (Craneman) or is thinking about buying one. I can no longer endorse this product.
The sad story: I went out to our coach yesterday morning, as usual. Going inside, I noted the air pressure gauge was down to about 60psi - not a good sign. For the last couple weeks, the compressor has been keeping system air pressure between 90 and 120psi. So I went outside and opened my "tool chest compartment" bay door, and was met with the distinctive aroma of burned electrical components. Unplugged the power cord, pulled all the junk out of the bay from the other side, and crawled in to take a look. Found the smoke had been let out of the compressor motor. Photos below. It must have been a quick death. Thankfully, there was no evidence of flame or prolonged combustion. Just the bad smell, and the streaks of black on the motor housing. I removed the compressor, and set up a fan blowing through the bay to air it out.
Can't tell why the motor failed. It was certainly not being over-worked - only ran 5 minutes at a time, several times a day (Yes, I have a pesky air leak that I cannot find - working on that). The compressor supposedly has a thermal fuse that would shut it down if it over-heated. I can only guess that there was a critical internal electrical failure of some sort. I was very lucky that there was no fire. I can envision other scenarios in which the consequences were much more serious. I hope I get the word out to other members before they suffer any similar problems.
So, what to do now. I can return the compressor to Walmart for a refund under their "90 Day Satisfaction Guaranteed" policy, so I'm not out any cash. I DO still want to pursue the objective of having a aux compressor permanently plumbed into the air system. I just need to find a SAFER, more reliable compressor. I will look into some other 110V compressors, or possibly a high performance 12V model like the one Don has.
Back to the drawing board!
Chuck,
It looks like the windings shorted out - probably due to the varnish being too thin. Manufacturing defect IMO.
I would try to contact the manufacturer. They might have a silent recall. If anything, it lets them know there's a problem; you could be the one in 10,000 that fails but there are probably more. The squeaky wheel does get the grease.
I feel for Chuck, one of my favorite things to do, is sit on the phone all day trying to get someone who knows what to do!
I think I would be inclined to give them another chance if they will exchange it for a new one. The company has a good reputation and you have everything in place for an easy change out... The safety issue is of concern of course, maybe install a circuit breaker right before that outlet.
Don
Quote from Chuck
(Yes, I have a pesky air leak that I cannot find - working on that)
YES; don't we all !!
Chuck, it is unlikely that you will get the same volume of air from a 12v compressor as you are getting from your 120v compressor.
The reason is the amount of current required with 120v is 10% of what would be required using 12v.
I have also replaced my 12v compressor with a 120v compressor for the greater air volume but my setup is simple because it provides air to the HWH control for the air bags only or to a quick connect hose for airing up tires. I did not include an air tank in my setup. It works very well for levelling the coach which is the main purpose.
With my setup the air is cooled between the compressor and the manifold with aluminum fins on the 3 foot long copper tube. I have an air cleaner and desiccant included.
Would I replace a failed low hour air compressor with the same unit? No.
But I was in the burn ward long ago.
Bob, I'm with you on this one. I have decided to return the C.A.T. compressor to Walmart next week for a full refund. After I have my cash in hand, I will send a email to the manufacturer explaining what happened and why it was returned. They can follow up as they see fit.
I am already looking at a slight modification of my original setup, using the
other portable compressor I had on hand. It is a Kobalt 3-gallon, 1.5hp, belt drive, 155 max psi unit that moves 2.6 cfm @ 90 psi. It has a low, flat design that will actually fit in the available space
better than the C.A.T. unit. (See photo below) I will have to rework my plumbing a bit, but nothing major.
I think the higher pressure rating of this Kobalt compressor will be advantageous for the following reason.
The C.A.T. unit had a operating range between 90 and 120 psi (max). I had the output regulator screwed all the way in so it would cut off when the coach air system (and the compressor tank) was at 120 psi. Then the coach air pressure would bleed down to 90 psi, and the compressor would cut back on. It then had to pump the
entire coach air system back to 120 psi, which required running for about 5 minutes.
The Kobalt will work differently. It is designed to cut-in at 125 psi, and cut-out at 155 psi. If I set the output regulator to 120 psi, then the coach air system will never vary - it will stay at a constant 120 psi. The pressure in the compressor tank will vary between 125 and 155 psi. When the compressor runs, it will only have to recharge the 3 gallon tank, rather than the total coach system. This takes about 35 seconds. Another plus: short running times produce less heat in the compressed air stream.
SO, if my preliminary testing holds up, this means the compressor will run more times per day, but for a much shorter interval each time. Even though it IS louder, I am willing to accept that for more safety and reliability.
I will be testing this new setup over the long weekend, and will report back with results next week.
Ah shucks... I wanted to like that company! The concept of a quiet air compressor is a compelling one. But not at the cost of safety or reliability. I am pretty happy with my 12V ARB Twin compressor which has similar specs to the Kobalt (3cfm @90psi). I pretty much just use it manually since auto always starts by trying to lower the high side. I will try some noise reduction with some vibration isolating mounts, but I mainly just want to reduce air leaks so that the coach won't settle and lose level as quickly. The more there is no reason to run it, the longer it will last. I would like to find a compact 3 gallon aluminum tank with appropriate fitting bosses to remote mount. Projects abound!
Don
Chuck,
I just searched Lowes and it says this compressor is no longer available.
John M.
Shop Kobalt 3-Gallon Portable 155-PSI Electric Hot Dog Air Compressor at... (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-3-Gallon-Portable-155-PSI-Electric-Hot-Dog-Air-Compressor/4686711)
Yes, I also noticed that. I bought mine a year ago in Oregon on our last trip to the Pacific NW.
If you go to the link you posted, and scroll down the page a bit, they show a Kobalt Quiet Tech 4.3-gallon twin-stack compressor. Click it, look at the 360 degree view, and spin it around to see the back side. The 2-piston compressor/motor assembly looks almost identical (in design) to the ones on the California Air Tools units. I'd guess both compressor units are being built by the same manufacturer. Interesting.
Another option, I used the ExtremeAire Magnum (https://www.extremeoutback.com/product/14/ExtremeAire+Magnum+12+Volt+Compressor++Part%23+007-222.html) compressor with excellent results. Rock solid reliable with a 100% duty cycle.
Chuck,
Viair makes a series of portable and on board air compressors that would work for your application. Their medium duty air compressor would work for your application.
John M.
OnBoard Air Systems | VIAIR Corporation (http://www.viaircorp.com/oba/)
Amazon.com: VIAIR Medium Duty Onboard Air System: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/VIAIR-Medium-Duty-Onboard-System/dp/B000X9RX3A)
That ExtremeAire Magnum looks interesting, but pricey! And, like Wyatt said, being 12V powered, it takes a big power draw (82 amps @ 100 psi) to produce the same results as the cheap 120V compressors. I would, however, like to hear one running just to see what it sounds like.
The 12V Viair compressors seem mainly geared to airing up tires. They don't move much CFM, so I don't think would be ideal for this application.
8 gal. 2 HP 125 PSI Oil Lube Air Compressor (https://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/air-compressors/8-gal-2-hp-125-psi-oil-lube-air-compressor-69667.html)
Been using one of these for years, pretty reliable. Had a coupon so got it for $80. Will bring your tires up to 120 psi. Did think of removing the tank and plumbing directly into system. It is noisy.
Oil lube compressors supposedly have a longer life span, but they also introduce oil into the compressed air stream. This requires a additional specialized filter to remove the oil. Just another complication that I would like to avoid.
Chuck,
VIAIR makes a wide variety of compressors. AC, DC 12V & 24V, variety of psi & cfm, from light duty to extreme duty. Not just for filling tires.
John M.
This is the one I have, high pressure, reasonable volume, very low noise, low amps. No problem going to 120 on the big tires. Stand up or lay flat.
Amazon.com: DEWALT DWFP55130 Heavy Duty 200 PSI Quiet Trim Compressor: Home... (https://amazon.com/gp/product/B00HQYFZGM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
If fits in my (new) bay behind the driver's side rear wheel (along with a bunch of other stuff including a 50' air line). I don't have to take it out to run it, I hook up an air dryer and air line right inside the bay.
Roger,
That looks like a good one. Perfect fit in your storage compartment! If I was gonna carry it "loose" like you do, that would be a great choice. But, the form factor and layout would not work with the space I am now committed to using, so not for me.
Returned the C. A. T. Model 2010A to Walmart today for a full refund. It has gone to a better place, R.I.P.
Can't beat the Walmart 90-day money back return policy - absolutely minimum hassle.
Lady at the returns counter asked "What is reason for return"?
I said "All the magic smoke escaped".
She looked at me funny and said "So it's broken"?
I said "Yes".
She processed the refund.
I will close out this thread with a few photos of the replacement air compressor installation. I know this sounds like rationalization, but I sincerely believe this Kobalt compressor will be superior to the now-deceased C. A. T. 2010A. I finished the install over the weekend, and it is working splendidly. It fits perfectly into the oddly shaped space under the entry steps, and will be completely out of the way when cramming junk into the storage bay.
I plumbed this one differently. I plugged my copper "cooling loop" tubing directly into the compressor tank output fitting. The other end of the tubing connects to the QC3 filter. It works this way. The compressor keeps its 3 gallon tank pressurized between 125 and 155 psi. The output regulator is set at 120 psi. The air from the compressor tank bleeds out through the regulator as required, flows through the copper tubing loop, through the QC3 water separator/filter, and then goes to the wet tank at the rear of the coach. The coach air system stays at a constant 120 psi. When the compressor cuts on at 125 psi, it only has to pump the 3 gallon tank back up to 155 psi, so it only runs for 35 seconds. During these short run periods, the compressor doesn't have time to get even slightly warm, so the compressed air in the 3 gallon tank stays cool. This will greatly reduce the amount of moisture carried in the compressed air stream, and will (hopefully) lessen the workload on the QC3.
In practice, this seems to be working very well. I have been constantly monitoring the water output from the 3 drain points. I get a little water out of the compressor tank drain every morning. I have seen zero moisture come out of the drain on the bottom of the QC3 filter housing. I have also seen zero water out of the wet tank drain on the coach. I am confident that the air going into the coach air system from this compressor is at least as dry, if not more so, than the air produced by the coach engine driven air compressor and dryer system.
The only downside to the replacement compressor is increased noise. However, since this compressor only runs 35 seconds at a time compared to the 5 minute runs of the previous "quiet" compressor, I feel the overall noise factor has improved. I'll see what the "crew" (DW & Bella) think on our next trip. If they object too strenuously, all I have to do is turn off the switch on the compressor and close one valve to revert to "normal" coach air system operation for the duration of the journey. No Problem! ^.^d
PS: Added info. If I close the valve and isolate the compressor from the coach air system, the compressor still feeds the retractable air hose. This "stand alone" mode will provide me with filtered and dried air at 125-155 psi for rapid filling of the coach tires.
I have the same one. Love it.
For those of you who are interested in this upgrade, California Air Tools is having a nice sale. Their factory outlet store is closing out the discontinued model 2510STP (https://www.ultraquietaircompressor.com/California-Air-Tools-2510STP-Ultra-Quiet-Oil-Free-Compressor-CAT-2510STP.htm) and the price is reduced from about $278 on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/California-Air-Tools-2510STP-Compressor/dp/B00NOQ7APK) to $149 with free shipping and no tax outside of CA. The unit is new with the full warranty but is blemished. We used to call these "C Stock" items in the audio video business (scratch and dent).
I'm ditching my 82db Porter Cable "Wake the Dead" model for this quiet 60db puppy. It outputs 2.35 CFM@90PSI and is a twin cylinder unit.
The CAT compressor that Mark D mentioned is only 120 psi max which makes filling a coach tire pretty slow. Should be OK for just leveling and air bladders and other aux tasks. The Dewalt mentioned before that is 200 psi max and is smaller and lighter.
That's a good point, Roger. Also, I had forgotten that Chuck's CAT compressor motor burned up (see reply #20 above). I rethought this and called CAT and asked to cancel the order. They said no problem if it hadn't shipped so we'll see what happens. If indeed it cancels I think I'll go with the Dewalt you mentioned. It's 70db but that's less than half as loud as the Porter Cable we currently have.
Finally decided to get a aux compressor. I only need 85 front/80 rear, so this works great. BTW, it takes about 4 min to add 10 pounds to each tire. I like the dual head chuck, liquid-filled gauge . The locking chuck version might fit the inside duals, but I did not get it. Power Tank - - Powertank.com (http://www.powertank.com)
Forgot the most important tool for airing-up the tires:
That sure is a purty blue air hose!