Installing new fuel lines in our 1997 U295 with 3126 Cat. I searched, and found lots of info here, but not specific to our coach.
I am putting this here to help others. Foretravel wasn't much help with fuel line length's, or any other info, like what side to pull tank etc.
Here it is in a nutshell:
Found it easiest to pull tank through drivers side. After pumping out 65 gallons fuel, which took about 1/2 hour
Door came off easy as one unit complete. It's not that heavy
Doing the gen set hoses at the same time
Ran a chaser wire with the last line.
Pulled the old hoses out, so I could measure them. I don't know if you could squeeze new ones in, with the old ones still in there. I have had a hard time in the past, just running 2 #8 solar panel wires in the area between the main bay, over the water tank area.
The two 5/16"gen hoses are 18' I added 3' to make it easier
The 1/2" fuel line is 26'. added 2 feet
Return 3/8" line is 30' with 2 extra feet added.
Our coach had a new line from the filter to the Fuel pump already installed. So you will want to do that.
Using Parker hose's (American made) rated at 300 PSI. Handles the new diesel fuel
Completely made up with ends under $200.00 at house of hose in Spokane. Took a 1/2 hour to get them.
This price included 9' of 5/16" fuel line for the vent
It took me about 4 hours to get to this point by myself. It is a real messy job, but not hard. Just a hassle. I will post how long to put it back together later. Some cleaning of parts will be involved.
[fixed typo in topic title - Michelle]
Well, it sure looks like hard work to me! You must have a different understanding of the term!
In photo #6, what are all those coils laying in the utility channel? Electric wire? Air hoses? Why is there so much excess material?
HWH wires. They always leave stuff long. They have a few nibbles in them, someone once had a meal with them. Nothing serious!
Nice job, when do you want to do a 40' 295? 😁
UMMMMM.......No thanks.......LOL...........Easier then doing the heater hose's on a old rear engine FT ford. That was the 1st job I was given as a tech.
It's not that bad, but no matter how careful you are,there will be diesel every where. I didn't get in the compartments, I capped both ends which helped a bunch.
BTW, The new diesel is nasty. I have a sealer on my cement that it softened and ate. Only race fuel does that. Not even regular gasoline.
Chris
Thanks, Chris, for the great photos and documentation on this job. It will certainly give some of us inspiration to tackle this job ourselves or at least to know what is involved in the process. Keep up the great work! ^.^d
John
Everything back together. Took about 4 hours. Included pumping 75 gallons of fuel. Made an adapter, with a small drill pump, sucked fuel to the water separator.
Pumped the hand pump up, and it started right up. Let it run 15 min. took it for a test drive, runs awesome as always. Once home, I shut it down,it did the same thing, crank but no start. let it sit 5-10 minutes, fired right up. Now it fires every time. Seems heat related (not over heating, just does it at operating temp 180). As I mentioned previously in another post, I was having this same issue. After rebuilding the fuel line return check valve, I thought I had it.
Oh well, it needed the fuel lines replaced for peace of mind, that's off the table. I just wish it would just stay not starting, so I can trouble shoot it. Going to replace the fuel shut off valve today. Pictures and story at eleven o'clock news. Stay tuned.
Chris
BTW, all the extended hose lengths were perfect.
Finally, problem resolved:
It was the solenoid at the dash. Went and filled up fuel, ran great, got home, shut it off no start. Checked at relay in bay with key on, had power. Pulled plug to injection solenoid, had power when cranking. Plugged it back in, it started at the rear?????
Went to front, no start at key. Went to solenoid at dash, power drops out when key is turned to start!...Bingo. Have 2 or three of those on hand. How can something so simple, be so stupid.
Here's the good news:
We have new fuel lines
We have a rebuilt return fuel line check valve
I have a spare Injector activation pressure control valve on hand (noted to go bad)
I learned so much about my coach wiring, and engine dynamics
The Cat RV hot line is awesome
This web site is awesome
Brett is awesome
Most of all my wife is really awesome and supportive.
Thanks to all
Chris and Tammy
BTW, here is what the Injector activation pressure control valve does.:
It controls the oil pressure to the fuel pump, which control's the fuel pressure to the injectors. So in reality, it is/isn't a fuel shut off valve.When it cuts the oil pressure to the pump, it stops the fuel pressure to the injectors. Only difference is, it's activated by the ECM which has to see the correct engine temp along with the correct engine oil pressure, before it powers up.
Valve is $244.00 New at Cat
$150.00 rebuilt exchange at cat
Aftermarket as shown, $75.00 delivered
Chris,
If you are talking about the ignition solenoid, it is pretty easy to diagnose.
With key ON, verify that everything that works with the ignition on works-- two easy ones to see are dash HVAC fan works and Allison shift pad illuminates and shows N. If not, then either the ignition switch or ignition solenoid (usually within 2' of the ignition switch) us bad.
The ignition solenoid will have two large lugs and one or two small terminals. If two small ones, one is ground, the other receives 12 VDC positive from the ignition switch when key on. You can also disconnect the small wire from the ignition switch and use a small gauge jumper wire (only needs to carry 1-2 amps) from the "hot" large lug. You should hear the solenoid click and then have battery voltage on the other large lug.
Sometimes giving the solenoid a light, sharp wrap will free it up temporarily if the points are a little burned.
The Bluesea electronic switch is a LOT more reliable, but not inexpensive (rated for 1 million cycles).
Brett,the solenoid unlatched only with the key in start position, after running in the ignition "on" position for maybe a 1/2 hr. The coach still turned over fine.Once the solenoid cooled down after the engine was shut down for say 5-10 minutes, it stayed latched in the start mode.
It needs to be noted, although they all look like a Ford start relay, it needs to be a constant duty/cycle solenoid.Not momentary like a start solenoid.
Also, with the 4 wire type, the ground is connected to the rear control panel. When the stop button in the rear is pushed, it lifts the ground to the front ignition solenoid via a relay at the front, which kills every thing connected to the ignition solenoid.
Thanks again.
Wish I'd hae known you were doing the work in or near Spokane. We were visiting DW's cousin and I had time to kill. I could have brought a comfortable lawn chair and watched ^.^d
I don't think so, I would have put you to work. I charge to watch.....Hee Hee. Your always welcome
UPDATE
Drove 800+ miles this weekend. Purr's like a Kitty Cat. 8 MPG average towing jeep Wrangler. 50 MPH, dash air on towing jeep up Vantage pass. Went to 205 degree's was still there at the top.
100+ degrees ambient outside.
May only be 300 HP, but got to see 850+ ft pd's of torque in action on the silverleaf.
Ran gen 4 hrs. new main breaker fixed breaker tripping when driving.
Engine compartment clean as a whistle, looks like it wasn't even running.
Love the new hitch, tows perfect, and I can open the engine compartment now, without unhooking anything
Decals will be next. Stay tuned!
Life is good.
Cheers
Nice looking engine Chris.
Jealous of it so maybe while in Mexico I will detail our Cummins, have 3 months time to do it in!
JohnH
Really clean! I don't wash dishes that well. Even looks like it's running.
Pierce
Had issues with Cummins cranking and not starting, had to bleed air to start. Have 1997 U295 40' with Cummins 325HP 6C8.3 with air entering injection pump thru 20 year old supply fuel lines. Attached pictures are from barbed connections of supply hose attaching to lift pump and one picture of return line from injector pump showing cracks under clamp on hose. Others have posted if you have cracks here, they will run the length of the line. Today I purchased all new lines for Cummins supply and return and the same for the generator for future install. Anyone already done this........Any input will be appreciated. I will post pics and details when completed. Anyone attempting this please read info on blocking frame (SAFETY TIPS) before crawling underneath. Line type, brand, length, size, whether you removed fuel tank or not, how you threaded line thru underneath are details worth noting.
It's not that bad doing it. (see post above)
More of a hassle then anything. I recommend pulling the old line's completely out, it's tight over the rear. In that area, use a snake line. I capped the ends with fittings, so not to spill diesel anywhere.I can now actually pull the engine fuel lines back a forth freely, when the belly pan is down.
Took two 6-7 hr causal days.Tank 1/2 way out the left (drivers side) for me.I drained it, and flushed it out while it was out. But it was clean already.Only help was my wife helping with door removal. Then a friend helped put it back on. Had to pull top house battery from the tray to remove the vent pipes.
I didn't do it, but I would check the gen/engine pickups,making sure they are right, not reversed. I read later they reversed some on our generation of coaches.Ours is fine, I have ran to almost empty.
Chris, there's a towel underneath you AC compressor?
Is the replacement line plastic, steel or rubber hose? Thanks,MM
The hose is nylon braded with rubber liner, but be sure to buy fuel hose that will withstand the new fuel standards.
Foretravel uses Parker-Hannifin HTFL which is a chemical resistant reinforced nylon. Diesel Fuel Tubing - HTFL & PFT Series | Parker NA (http://ph.parker.com/us/17573/en/diesel-fuel-tubing-htfl-pft-series)
Don
I used Parker 7212. Designed for the new fuel. Will handle 300 PSI
JIFFY™ Push-On Multipurpose Oil Resistant Hose, Series 7212 | Parker NA (http://ph.parker.com/us/17612/en/push-on-multipurpose-oil-resistant-air-water-hose-jiffy-series-7212)
Interesting that Parker says to
not use bands or clamps when using the hose with push-on couplings.
I re-used all the old fittings had to use heat gun to get the hose on some of the fittings. No leaks no clamps. Also had to use the heat gun to remove the old hose.
I asked that question too. They said clamps will damage the hose/fitting combo, and leak.I freaked out when I saw "WP" on the hose. Asked all kinds of questions.
I am fine with it all. House of Hose is huge, been around since the 40's, has a great reputation.They don't sell junk.
I think this might be a step less then what Ft uses, because they use top shelf stuff, just think this is universal for all applications.
When I saw "OK with ethanol", I was sold. What could be worse then that? Acetone!
BTW, I have 40 year old air hose with push on's. None leak at 120 psi
I just finished the replacement of the fuel supply and return lines on my 1997 U295 40' with 6C8.3 Cummins. I did not find it as easy as others posted although finished this by myself, including bleeding air from the fuel system. This took me approx 15 hrs, spread over 4 days. Checked "safety" posts and blocked the chassis between the rails properly. I did this after twice loosing prime and having to add fuel at 1/4 tank reading and bleeding the Cummins to start. I may also have the issue with the gen and eng supply tubes switched in tank. This I will deal with on another day. I noticed cracks in the fuel line over the press on barbs of the fittings. They allowed air in causing hard starting and eventually total loss of prime resulting in no start. If your lines are over 10-15 years old (from hose mfg) and you have not already replaced, you will most likely find these lines hardened and cracks the full length of these lines. These should be replaced with low pressure hydraulic hose rated for current 5-20 ethanol diesel fuel. I used a combination of Gates RLA and Eaton Easy Couple H201 hose. The gates was RLA ( used for supply RLA-10 and return lines RLA-06 for main eng and generator) and the Eaton was H20110 ( the 10 at the end designates 5/8 H201 hose used for the low pressure short hose between fuel filter and lift pump. They both are low pressure nitrate hose. My supply was 5/8 to the Cummins, and was in the center of the fuel tank along with the supply (3/8) to the generator. Both of my return lines for the Cummins and the generator were on drivers side edge of the tank along with the smaller vent hose. I used Gates RLA, 67 feet of 3/8 hose and 37 feet of 5/8. The short piece of Eaton H201 was given to me by the local Eaton supplier when I inquired about fittings for the filter to lift pump (the Eaton could use the old brass slip on fittings and they worked great, with a little help from a heat gun to heat up and insert. The Gates hose is not recommended for slip on fittings. I used the Gates press on fittings at the tank end to start. I then attached this new hose to the old hose at tank and pulled thru. I attached using a short brass pipe coupling threaded at each end. The coupling thread gripped each hose so I did not need to use and other attachment. Doing it over I might have also pulled a string or wire line in case the coupling came loose. I just never pulled to hard, went slow, pushed when it bound up pulling. Be careful not to twist hose, as mfg says a 7% twist can cause early failure. Also............ I've owned the rv for four months. Prev owner owned for two years, and said he never had any issue, when asked after I bought if there was anything wrong, I would like to know and fix before I had an issue. He said no, no issues, the orig owner he bought from in Klamath Falls had maintained it very well and he had only put 5,000 miles on it. Then he said, oh yes, the original owner, Jerry Klingberg, told me to make sure to always fill up at 50% full, but he never told me why. I've put 2,500 miles on in 4 months. Twice I had to bleed fuel injection to start at 1/4 tank, ran to that level to check gauge when refilled. Gage is accurate, rv died both times while parked overnight at 1/4 tank. I had heard on this forum that some 1997's had the two supply tubes switched. Either my supply tubes are switched or it was just coincidence that I lost prime the only two times I let it go to 1/4 tank from the bad fuel hose. I am not sure. After the first time I replaced the fuel solenoid and the lift pump. The second time it lost prime at 1/4 tank, I now replaced all the low pressure fuel hose. I will post when I find out. Also, if anyone knows how to contact the orig owner, Jerry Klingberg, please let me know.
Nice job. better then paying someone 2K+ to do it.Looks like one line was spliced previously.This will be worth the peace of mind you will have.
Chris
What's the difference between the HTFL/PFT and air line hose? Look at any new truck and it looks like they use the same plastic tubing for air line and fuel lines.
Something is leaking on my RV. If I park it with front of RV pointing down an incline, the engine loses prime. No issue when level or engine on the low side.
Air line hose and fuel hose are not the same material. The plastic fuel lines would not be what you want in the coach.
Diesel Fuel Tubing - HTFL & PFT Series | Parker NA (http://ph.parker.com/us/en/diesel-fuel-tubing-htfl-pft-series)
I believe it would be harder to install through the coach. I guess if you installed a fitting on the end, it could be pulled through the bays. The plastic air lines I use on the crane wear through where they rub on anything and the rubber doesn't
Also that plastic hose links easier when pulling it through and once it kinks you can't get the link out all the way.
the genset pickup is supposed to leave you 1/4 tank of fuel when it stops picking up and it is common for riggers to hookup to the wrong fuel tank pickup on rv's and boats. I"ve had issues on new boats running out of fuel with the gauge reading 1/4 fuel in tank
wantabe
The engine is 5/8'" fitting and the generator is 1/2" fitting at the tank. It would have had to be welded in the tank wrong to switch them. When going to see the eclipse I underestimated the distance to the next fuel stop and had the generator shut down at about a 1/4 tank. Not something I let happen often, to keep the fuel cool.
Generator ran, coach did not. Drove into campground, next morning coach would not start. Never ran out of fuel, thus with new fuel lines, I am hoping none start was due to cracked supply lines allowing air in and loosing prime, not switched supply pick ups. I am now an expert in starting this 6C8.3 Even worked with new, empty of fuel lines installed. Turned ign key on, not far enough to energize starter, pumped lift pump maybe 40 times, opened two turns #1 and #3 injector, started engine with fuel pedal to the floor until running at 1500 to 2000 rpm smoothly, shut off, tightened #1 and #3 injector line. If it still will not start, re due above, may have to do 3 or 4 times to bleed air out. (If you install new filters, you will have to pre fill filters). With new lines, I can bleed and start in minutes. I know this because I did so twice after final replacement of approx 50 inch of new 5/8 hose between filter and lift pump. Previously trained truck diesel mechanics took hours to start my diesel, I was there watching their replacement of lift pump, replacement of fuel cutoff solenoid, checking solenoid linkage, adding 40 gal of fuel, removal of filters, refilling filters, use of Diethyl ether to aid start, bleeding as I did above, and still no start until many tries hours later. I am sure all this was due to the cracked fuel supply lines.
The local Eaton dealer told me to not use clamps since this would cut the inside of the hose on the hose barbs and cause premature failure. My oem existing hose were slip on clamp free hoses. On the lift pump to primary filter I re-used the old brass slip on fittings with new Eaton fuel hose, the dealer gave me a 5 ft remnant for free. On the rest of the hoses (supply and return for both C68.3 Cummins and 10K Power Tech generator, I used gates RLA 1-Fiber Braid Return Line Hose. RLA Return Line & Low Pressure Hose | Gates Corporation (http://www.gates.com/products/industrial/industrial-hydraulics/hydraulic-hose/low-pressure/rla-fiber-braid-return-line-hose) With this hose I had the Gates hydraulic hose dealer crimp on Gates steel hose fittings and supply the hose fittings to use at the other end. With this now brass to steel coupling you must be careful to not over tighten as the steel will ruin the brass fitting.
Question here...Why not abandon the old fuel line and run a new one in the chase...?? seems like allot less frustration on the binding issue..?
IMWTK :)
Hans
Especially on coaches with an Aqua Hot you need the room due to all the extra hoses. Depending on the floor plan on some coaches the chases are not in a straight line, they have an offset over the holding tanks. On some coaches it would be possible with out the A/H and the correct floor plan.
Pamela & Mike
Kind of a built in fish wire to pull thru. Also the old line may leave some non odorless liquid in the storage area. "I used the Gates press on fittings at the tank end to start. I then attached this new hose to the old hose at tank and pulled thru. I attached using a short brass pipe coupling threaded at each end. The coupling thread gripped each hose so I did not need to use an other attachment. Doing it over I might have also pulled a string or wire line in case the coupling came loose. I just never pulled to hard, went slow, pushed when it bound up pulling. Be careful not to twist hose, or stretch, as mfg says this can cause early failure."
Had folks at Old Town check the fuel hoses when they did the bulkhead. Said the fittings looked fine with no problems. Of course, since they are 22 years old plus shelf time before installation, they could go any time but no problems are obvious from the outside.
Hello Larry, It is not to hard to check again yourself. The worst splits will be where the line stretches over the fittings, so check the fittings at the lift pump, and the primary filter looking for small cracks or splits. The next worst area will be the turns of the hose on top of the fuel tank. Best to check yourself prior to something being hard to start. I've appreciated all your posts, this comes back to you as a thank you.