I am doing some research and trying to focus in on the best options for upgrading the primary fuel filtration system. The primary is the filter water separator on the suction side of the lift pump (or fuel transfer pump). Currently, the OEM Racor housing is okay and the Racor R90P filter cross that is currently installed is a Fleetguard FS19532. I probably won't be doing this project until we are back at home base at the end of the year, but I am doing the research while I am still motivated by the recent issues we had discussed in my intermittent stop engine light thread. As I posted in my last update to that thread, the issue seemed mostly resolved on the last leg of the trip, but I won't be able to say it is over with until we have many miles of freedom from annunciator dings (in the midst of the issues, it was all too easy to imagine the sound even when it wasn't happening!) and stop engine lights. At any rate, I am pretty set on the Davco style exemplified by the Davco 382. Cummins Fleetguard apparently has OEM'ed the Davco units and they have identical looking units that use the same replacement filter numbers as their Davco counterparts and also share the same form factors. The drawings with dimensions of the Davco 243 Diesel Pro (new version is the Diesel Pro 245)
(http://www.davco.com/forms/tech/F1215.pdf)
and the Cummins Diesel Pro 236
(http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/LT36164.pdf)
However, the GPH ratings are significantly different in spite of using identical filter elements. The original Racor R90P is spec'd at 90GPH, as is the Cummins FH236. The apparently identical Davco (both the older Diesel Pro 243 and newer 245) is only rated at 60GPH. I can't find definitive specifications for for the 350HP Cummins ISC, but based on some other literature I have read, this would be marginal at best. Too bad, because the Davco 243 (which features the same "seeing is believing" visual filter change indicator is often available as new old stock on eBay for under $200, while a call to a Freightliner parts guy gave me a Canadian dollar price of about $350 for the Fleetguard (about $280 US). They didn't have them in stock and would have to order them from Cummins US, so not an option right now but gives me useful information for comparison purposes.
My thought process is that a higher GPH ratting will have more reserve capacity before causing a restriction to the lift pump which is what had been causing my anxiety provoking stop engine light because of the bio-sludge caused by the dying micro organisms from the contaminated fuel. Even though it seems to be under control now, I want to be proactive and as a nice side benefit, make it a cleaner process to change the primary filter element and also to know when to change it. Also, it is easy to see if there is air in the system with the Davco style, something that is not possible with the Racor. So for even more reserve GPH capacity (much more!) I could go with the the Davco 382
(http://www.davco.com/forms/tech/F1271.pdf)
or its Fleetguard equivalent the FH230
(http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/sites/default/files/LT32559.pdf)
series at a rated 180GPH. The issue with that is the mounting location. There is a requirement (or at least a strong suggestion) that the filter element be mounted above the full tank level. The current location of the Racor might not accommodate that requirement, though there is a stipulation in some of the units mounting instructions that if this not the case, a shut off valve must be installed, so it could work but then I am not sure if the visual indication of restriction level will function. I would love to put it back at the engine hatch, but finding room is an issue there too... Anyway, still in the preliminary stages of research but I would welcome the wisdom of the forum on this subject. I don't mind spending money for the goals of making travel more trouble and worry free, but of course I don't really want to spend more than necessary! That said, the almost $200 in filters would have gone a long way in paying for this upgrade and the peace of mind knowing earlier that fuel contamination was the cause of this issue would have been worth a whole lot more than that!
Don
Don,
GPH ratings between different manufacturers can be very misleading. Flow rate AT A GIVEN RESTRICTION is what needs to be compared.
I would contact Davco and ask about use with the ISC and even the ISL engine-- suspect they know the engines pretty well, as most of these units are on OTR trucks.
Here is an interim update to my fuel filter/water separator thread. I contacted Davco customer service via a web form on Saturday (long weekend) and got a response back almost first thing Tuesday morning that references the quote below from my thread starting post;
Here is the question I sent to Davco.
Note: He didn't address the second part of my question in bold italic, but I will follow up with a phone call later and update the thread as it will likely affect the mounting location of the assembly;
And here is his response;
So as I suspected, the Davco 243/245 unit is the same as the "new" Cummins FH236. So, as far as Cummins is concerned, the Davco 243/245 would be a suitable choice for our 8.3 ISC 350HP motor. Still, it seems to me that the Davco 382 (180GPH) that is specified as having 2 or 3 times the GPH rating (depending on who's specs you read, Cummins or Davco) would have more capacity to resist clogging as well has capacity to remove water. So I am in the process of purchasing a new old stock Davco 382 with a Detroit Diesel label for a price about the same as the smaller Davco 243 I have been following. FYI, the Fleetguard labeled version of the Davco 382 is branded as the Fleetguard Fuel Pro FH230 with more numbers following depending upon the configuration and options. The unit I have purchased, according to the part number (Davco 382032DDCB), has Fluid Heat with 12VDC 195W preheater (coolant heat exchanger connection, and 12VDC heating element which doesn't have to be used, but nice to have the option). It doesn't have a WIF (water in fuel sensor), but I can buy buy a sensor for about $30 or so. I might want to do add a WIF and put an LED up front to indicate the presence of water in the fuel. That option might help me figure out which diesel source did me the favor >:( if I should get a load of Cr@p diesel, so I can respond with a dispersant additive ASAP. The secondary engine mounted Fleetguard FAS1022 has a WIF, but if the primary does its job, the secondary will never see it and so could go unnoticed. In all of my recent issues with the bad fuel, none of the fault codes indicated the presence of water, so the Racor was doing its job. I may not always be able to fill up at a high volume truck stop, so I intend to be prepared! I hope this thread is or will be of interest to others, because I know the subject has my attention!
Don
Don,
I really like the Davco 382. And, you should be able to mount it at the front, passenger's side of the engine compartment high enough to mount as recommended. Yes, may take an extra, short fuel line from old filter location to new, but no big deal.
Since it has a clear bowl, I would not spend the $$ and time to do a WIF sensor and wiring to dash. Just look at the filter the first stop after filling up.
That is my fall back position (I have seen pictures of other coaches that have primary filter located there... U280 I think) if I can't find a more convenient location for servicing. I am reluctant to have to change the filter by lifting the bed. For some reason, my better half doesn't approve of the odor of fresh diesel ::) :o in our living space. As far as running the wire for an LED in the dash, I already have a few that I can use. I will still do a visual check of course, but it might not show up immediately after a fill up. Mounting wise, I am considering back by the taillight near the coolant overflow. The original R90P location might be possible, but I will talk to Davco beforehand.
Don
Tys,
WAIT-- you are married to Don and don't like "eau-de-diesel"??????
Actually with the Davco 382, should be minimal spill with filter change.
Don- this is very interesting. As you know I use the Racor with the Baldwin primary filter with great success. I can change the filter easily by myself ( Karen loves that), the only downside is I don't see exactly when to change, so I do it on schedule or when/if I start getting sluggish. I am watching this thread with great enthusiasm and I know you will do a great job on this. Now if you could figure out how to remotely relocate the secondary filter off the engine- wow, that would be great.
Safe travels to you and Tys. Hope to cya down the road sometime. ^.^d
Regarding the mounting location for the Fuel Water Separator unit in relationship to the full level of the fuel tank, here is a quote directly from the Fleetguard Fuel Pro 230 (same unit as Davco 382) Installation Instructions;
So that is excellent news! I will be able to keep about half of the filter element above the full level if I locate the housing low enough to service the element in the current primary filter location above the chassis battery, so the "Seeing is Believing functionality" would be intact. As per the instructions quoted above, the unit itself can be up to 6 feet below the full level and still be functional, albeit with significantly reduced ability to asses the remaining filter element capacity. I suppose that scenario would only apply in boat, but I am relieved that I won't have to bend the laws of physics to mount it as high as possible without a complete relocation. I may do that anyway, but it is nice to have options. I am set to pick up my new old stock Davco 382 in Calgary after the weekend. The location is a bonus because I am saving a $40 shipping charge and I can start brainstorming where, how, and when I will put it in. I have options for a range of micron size filtration with this unit, varying from 2 micron to 50 micron. The Davco chart recommends 10 micron for Cummins applications, but I think that the FS1022 Fleetguard secondary engine mounted filter is 10 microns, but I can't seem to find a definitive answer to that. If the FS1022 is 2 microns on the other hand, I would think that a 25 micron element for the Davco unit would be appropriate. Open to thoughts on this matter...
Don
It's common on boats to put a vacuum gauge on the fuel line down stream from the fuel filter to tell when the filter is getting dirty. It's normally a progressive issue, not sudden. Would that not work on an RV ?
wantabe
Don,
The last sentence in the quote has me puzzled: "Mounting below 6' (1.8 m) eliminates the Seeing is Believing functionality."
I find it contrary to a previous sentence: " Installing below the "FULL" level causes the starting level to be higher than normal."
I believe the second sentence is correct-- i.e. if below "full tank level" the seeing is believing/how restricted the filter is does not work. Let us know if you get clarification.
I am sure it would, though I think with the Davco system it will be easy enough to peak at the gradually rising level in the filter cover. If I was keeping the Racor system, the vacuum gauge would be an excellent supplement. In our case, the problem happened overnight. One day (the day after I diagnosed and fixed the secondary fuel filter leak and oil pressure sensor issue, two items apparently unrelated except in proximity of onset) we did 408 miles without a single issue, and the next ding ding ding goes the annunciator at the slightest load along with the dreaded stop engine light. The vacuum gauge downstream of the Racor primary would have certainly eased my mind had it indicated a restriction.
Don
Don,
I bought a Davco 382 last year. Planning on installing this winter.
I've done some reading and found that for the DD 6v92 they recommend the 7 micron filter and most don't run a secondary filter. Worst case scenario the lower micron filter clogs sooner assuming the GPH is the same. Just my $.02.
Good news on mounting. I was a little worried my mounting location wouldn't be high enough. No longer a worry now. :)
see ya
ken
They can be the only filters, but you might have to get a diverter cap kit to block off the engine mounted secondary if you have one. I could to that on our Cummins as well, if I read the chart correctly. We will see... I don't think I will do this project until the end of the year, but that could change.
Don
As mentioned, it is common in the marine world to install a downstream gauge. Just as a FYI for others reading this thread this is what we did to monitor the status of the filter. The bus bar is also Dons innovation. Not finished with wire routing. The part is from Designated Engineering number DE1669.
Has anyone added the vacuum/compound gauges to the standard Racor filter housing?
I have been using a Davco 382 filter in the primary position on my Caterpillar 3126b for approx 7 years with no problems. I use a 7 micron fleetguard and a Caterpillar 2 micron in the secondary position. I change filters somewhere close to 3 years without ever getting to the top. I do carry spares. Works for me.
Bill ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d
Update: I picked up the Davco 382 in Calgary today, and it is as advertised. It is a large unit. Of course I knew the dimensions, but it is an impressive bit of kit! The one I bought is a Detroit Diesel OEM new old stock part. The Davco part number guide lists this unit's options to include Fluid Heat with 12VDC 195W preheater. It has two heating elements slightly different in appearance which are plugged into the same wire harness, so it seems that it may have been meant for colder climates than we will be operating in. Below are some pictures of the actual unit. I paid $159.20 which I consider a heck of a deal, though local pick up saved me $40. Last I checked, he had one left. His auction title is "Detroit Diesel Fuel Processor 23533843", which may be one reason they haven't sold right away as most new old stock Davco 382 units are listed quite a bit higher.
Don
Thanks to you again Don, I am following suit. Found one and it is on its way. It's not new so will have to wait and see.
DAVCO 382 Fuel Filter Assembly 09-050 NO RESERVE! | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAVCO-382-Fuel-Filter-Assembly-09-050-NO-RESERVE-/401396708149?nma=true&si=LRQC4dI5DArc1WNh0tewEsOR97I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
Let us know where/how high you install it and what extra hoses it took (if any).
Thanks.
This is the only fuel filter used on my Newell with a series 60 Detroit 500 HP. I never had any problems and was very easy to service. I wish my 04 Foretravel had this set-up.
Thanks for the input! Regarding the last part, when I do our Davco 382 installation, you can bet that I will post what is involved in the conversion. I see this as a step one to several fuel delivery mods that I am contemplating. I have much research yet to do, but I will post my findings and questions as I go.
Don
Brett,
I missed this post earlier... easy to do when reading it by iPhone. Maybe time for a new bigger one! My theory about the meaning of this paragraph (this is from the Cummins FH230 Fuel Pro technical manual) is that if the mounting of the 382 is above the full tank level, the level you see in the glass bowl will be starting from the lowest possible point and rise until the filter media is saturated with contaminants. But if the filter element is below the full level of the tank, the level in the clear bowl will start at a higher point because the atmospheric pressure trapped in the bowl will be overcome by the siphoning action from the tank. In other words, optimal mounting provides a more accurate representation of the restriction level of the filter element at the installation of a new element and maintains that correspondence until the filter element bowl fuel level indicates that it is time to change it. Conversely, mounting the the filter element below the full tank level causes the level in a new element to start higher, but as the level goes higher over time, eventually the level in the clear bowl rises. Possibly, as it approaches the top of the bowl, the progress slows. I will be asking Davco tech support for clarification, which so far has been very helpful and answered my questions promptly. The Davco installation instructions varies from the Cummins, in that Davco says the filter must be mounted higher than the fuel tank full level. The Davco tech told me that the Fleetguard FH230 (Cummins Filtration division), is the same unit as the Davco 382 and the instructions on the FH230 applies equally to the Davco 382. Like I said, I will clarify with Davco tech support. Still, I would prefer the optimal location for ease of service as well as mounting elevation. If at all possible, I will mount it in a way that satisfies both of those requirements.
Don
Don,
That is my understanding as well. High or low works equally well as far as filtration.
Mounting about the tank level adds an easy "eye ball" check of restriction by just seeing fuel level in the filter.
FYI...my 2007 coach has this same primary Fuel Pro filter/water separator installed (the Fleetguard version) as standard equipment from Foretravel. It has worked well. Along with the secondary on engine fuel filter. Never had the fuel level get above the top of the element though. Always change it well before that.
How high/where is it mounted compared with level of top of fuel tank?
A very interesting discussion and I'm certainly getting an education. I'm looking at the fuel system from 40 years of boating and maintenance in harsher environments and wondering if this is not getting a little over thought. The specs on filters obviously is based on different criteria. The engine needs 6 to 10 gal. an hour to burn and the balance of that is for cooling and is returned to the fuel tank. The major pollutant problems could be eliminated by polishing, considerably cheaper than the high tech expensive filtering methods mentioned. A filter/water separator built from a pump and filter from a fuel tank transfer pump like used by construction and agriculture purposes is functional and cheap. A Racor filter system with valves and parallel filters eliminates changing filters on the road and a vacuum gauge down stream will tell you what's going on. And all of that is low tech, cheap, and easy to install and maintain. High tech isn't always better, but it is a challenging hobby.
wantabe
It as the very rear of the coach directly behind the engine access doors. It is mounted where it is higher than the top of the fuel tank. With a new filter element installed, the fuel level in the bowl is only a couple inches up on the filter. Over time it slowly climbs but I have never seen it over about 1/2 to 3/4 up the filter.
The engine may be burning 6 to 10 gallons an hour, but the cooling aspect is very important. The ECM, the CAPS pump (in the Cummins ISC), etc. are all cooled by the fuel. In looking at the Cummins Insite software while diagnosing the stop engine light problem, the fuel temperature was right at the top limit and was undoubtedly caused by the restriction. i.e., The CAPS pump is starving for fuel resulting in the over pumping fault code, and there is less fuel being returned to the tank for cooling. Also, I disagree that this is a high tech approach merely a change in the primary fuel water separator and choosing the best mounting location to make it easier to service and the visual check to tell when just makes sense to me. Setting up a fuel polishing set up is definitely on my radar and I may do that at some point, but certainly not cheaper than than my $160 eBay new old stock filter. Nor would mounting a multi-parallel set up with valves in the limited space be a trivial pursuit... but each of us comes to the solutions for the issues that crop up by the means which our own experience and thinking process prepares for us. Yours may well be different. Those who haven't been bitten by the cr@p fuel issue and had to change filters by the roadside (assuming they know what caused the problem in the first place), won't like see the point of all this discussion and are free to ignore it under the principle of "Do What Makes You Happy" frequently mentioned on this forum (Thanks Dave M!).
Don
I totally agree....just wanted to offer another solution. Also, a fuel cooler might be considered.
Wantabe
I don't know about previous years, but the 99' U270 has a fuel cooler in front of the radiator. I imagine with advent of electronic engines and the use of fuel for cooling the electronic components, Cummins required the OEM's to include them.
Don
On my Newell the Davco filter was mounted at about where the center of the tank would be. One has to remember that you need room at the top in order to fill the filter with fuel after you change the filter. It takes about 3 quarts or so. Therefore on the Newell in stead of hauling diesel in a can in case one got bad fuel and had to change the filter on the side of the road, we carried several bottles of Dextron ATF to fill the filter. Lot easier than diesel. I was lucky and never had to use AFT but there were members of the forum that did. The old Detroit loved it as much as diesel.
I change the filter about every 18 months.
I am updating this thread as I have gotten a chance to work on the coach in the ultimate man cavern (much to big to be a man cave!). We are enjoying the Texas hospitality of Bill Chaplin in his amazing warehouse/shop South of Ft. Worth. We had a few more issues with the fuel filter on the way here, and so while I am hoping to take advantage of this opportunity to work on the coach indoors and get a few more projects done while at the warehouse, the fuel filter has jumped the priority list and everything else will take a back seat. I have refined the the mounting location and made a mounting plate out of ¼" steel that is bolted to the heavy duty rectangular tubing that borders the engine compartment. This places the elevation filter element at or very near to the full tank level. I will also put in a shut off valve on the supply side of the filter to keep the prime if I remove the filter base to access other components for servicing. There is a check valve on the input side of the filter that will do that if you are just changing the filter element. I will have a couple of braided stainless steel teflon lined hoses made to order, so I wanted to finalize the mounting location to be sure of the length and choice of fittings. These hoses won't be cheap, but they will be flexible enough to route optimally and total extra length will be less than six feet. Here are a couple of pictures of the filter location, and a few of the Warehouse environment. I do love rustic campsites surrounded by trees and all that, but an indoor facility to get projects done with a 50 amp electrical hook up is 5 stars in my book! :D
Don
Wow- that looks great Don. I am very interested in this too as I had some misses and check engine light again, that is after changing filters twice. If this works for you I might have to consider that upgrade.
On my coach that looks to be in front of the D2 and the PureAir Halex air dryer. Wondering if they will still be accessible with the new fuel filter there?
That does make the D2 governor less accessible, though still doable with out removing the filter canister via reach around (at least for me 8) ), but the Air Dryer wasn't particularly accessible before I put the Davco 382 there. Any work on the Air Dryer really means accessing from behind and underneath (which would be necessary to remove the air lines anyway). The last picture shows the Air Dryer mount from behind. You can access the air dryer mounting fasteners from directly behind even with the Davco in place. That said, my experience thus far says that I am much more likely to need to get to the fuel filter than either the governor or the dryer. At this point, I just need to take the bikes off the rack to open the hatch to change the filter, or with the bikes on, just open it a crack to examine the restriction level... I may be able to see that through the grill, but I haven't closed the hatch yet so we will see.
I had one braided stainless line made up from a hydraulics shop in Cleburne, TX. It has a crimped on 90º sweep on one end and a straight fitting crimped on the other end. The crimped fittings are JIC (37º taper) and they are connected to the filter with ½" MPT to JIC adapters. The new line is called ½", but the crimped on fittings have openings that are only hair over 5/16". This is just a bit smaller than the openings of the ⅝" OD Parker fuel lines with the DOT air brake compression fittings that Foretravel put in about 4 years ago. The next size up that hydraulic shop stocked is ¾" and this was much stiffer and appeared to be almost twice the diameter of the ½". Time will tell if I will need to upsize the line. I finished the install of the Davco today and tested it, though just at idle. It was very easy to pre-fill the filter unit and purge the air. I used the key-on 45 second running of the lift pump after pre-filling the filter unit about three times and then started it while Bill Chaplin looked on. A lot of air bubbles at first, but it didn't stall. I topped of the filter housing and started it again and within 30 seconds or so, no air bubbles and the level visible in the filter settled down to its initial level visible in the picture. I am going to change the height control valves now and when I am done with that, I will take it for a road test... One good thing about the Davco system is that pre-filling the filter unit puts adds the the diesel on the unfiltered side of the element so that what ever you add from the can gets filtered before it gets to the secondary filter. I will continue to update this thread as I see the results over time.
Some notes on the parts and process of relocating the primary fuel filter from behind the curbside rear dually's above the chassis batteries to the area accessible by opening the engine bay door. On our coach, a 99' U270 with the CAPS fuel system electronic ISC 350HP, the original Racor filter housing was located above the chassis batteries at arm's length through the hatch behind the passenger's side rear wheels. This location is not very convenient for servicing, but makes sense from a plumbing point of view as it places the primary filter in line and close to the lift pump. The right side of the Racor housing is the inlet side with the filtered fuel exiting on the left side. Placing the Davco unit where it would be at the recommended mounting height and accessible without standing on my head or opening up the bed to access from above required me to extend the fuel line 6' coming from the fuel tank. I went with a teflon lined braided stainless steel hose with crimped on ends which my research indicated is suitable for pretty much any kind of chemical including diesel fuel of all kinds.
I had Foretravel replace the fuel lines (all of them) just under four years ago, and they used what they are using on their new coaches. It is a Parker HTFL (High Temperature Fuel Line), ⅝" OD for the main engine and ⅜" OD for the generator. The Parker fuel line has a consistency like air line used for brakes, but is a different color. In fact, he fittings used for the main fuel line are DOT brake line fittings. The ones used by Foretravel for the fuel lines are the compression type rather than the PTC (push to connect) type. The sizes apparently are not that common on air brake systems as the truck parts place didn't have many options and the parts counter guy seemed surprised to find some for the ⅝" OD tubing. The fittings on the Racor I/O are ⅜" FPT (female pipe thread), and the Davco has ½" FPT I/O. The Dot fittings can ban be adapted on the pipe thread side, or you can get fittings that have the ⅝" OD compression (or PTC) on one side and ½" male pipe threads on the other. The 6' extension I had made at the hydraulic's shop have JIC fittings only so I got the JIC male to ½" FPT adapter extend the fuel line from the tank. At the filter housing which has a JIC female swivel and an adapter that goers from JIC male to ½" MPT the is screwed into the check valve fitting. A note on the JIC fittings: These fittings utilize a 37º taper and do not use any kind of sealant on the sealing surfaces. On the pipe thread fittings, I used Loctite 567 which is the same as what I use on pipe threads in the air system. I also installed a ball valve between the Foretravel installed fuel line and the extension. This is a ½" brass valve that is rated for WOG (water, Oil, & Gas). By slightly rerouting the main fuel line from where it had been connected to the Racor unit where it had to make a 90º turn towards the curbside, I was able to feed it so that it ended right inside the engine compartment on the corner so that the shut off valve is reachable by opening the bed.
Don