Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: craneman on September 10, 2017, 06:36:26 pm
Title: Air leveling question
Post by: craneman on September 10, 2017, 06:36:26 pm
I read all the posts about problems with air leveling and wonder how many members have the same good luck as me? My coach stays level for months even though my tanks eventually leak to 0. When I park it I auto level and then turn it off. Months later I can turn the key on and hit the level button once and all 4 lights are still on and the coach is still level. Is this unusual or do we only post problems?
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: gracerace on September 10, 2017, 07:06:48 pm
I read all the posts about problems with air leveling and wonder how many members have the same good luck as me? My coach stays level for months even though my tanks eventually leak to 0. When I park it I auto level and then turn it off. Months later I can turn the key on and hit the level button once and all 4 lights are still on and the coach is still level. Is this unusual or do we only post problems?
Lucky guy
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Michelle on September 10, 2017, 07:23:35 pm
I read all the posts about problems with air leveling and wonder how many members have the same good luck as me? My coach stays level for months even though my tanks eventually leak to 0. When I park it I auto level and then turn it off. Months later I can turn the key on and hit the level button once and all 4 lights are still on and the coach is still level. Is this unusual or do we only post problems?
Once we chased down the leaks and replaced a bunch of fittings (and the air bags) our 2003 was the same - rock solid for months. Took us years to get there, but we did it.
I think it's the nature to post of problems and solutions since they help others (or are requests for help). When things are working, we're all too busy enjoying things to post about what isn't broken :D
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Mark Duckworth on September 10, 2017, 07:47:09 pm
My leveling was rock solid even before all the work on the air system. Difference now is the air is dry, leak down rate on the front and rear tanks is super slow (they hold air for I'm not sure how long, but way more than a week), and the aux compressor runs less frequently.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: craneman on September 10, 2017, 07:58:49 pm
My leveling was rock solid even before all the work on the air system. Difference now is the air is dry, leak down rate on the front and rear tanks is super slow (they hold air for I'm not sure how long, but way more than a week), and the aux compressor runs less frequently.
That will be one of my winter projects to stop the leaks in the main air system. I know where some of them are and because it takes 4 days to get down below 60 psi I have been putting it off. Thanks to you Mark I will start by building one tank at a time and then R&R them.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: gracerace on September 10, 2017, 08:23:18 pm
Check the step cylinders, always missed because they are hidden
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Mark Duckworth on September 10, 2017, 08:48:49 pm
That will be one of my winter projects to stop the leaks in the main air system. I know where some of them are and because it takes 4 days to get down below 60 psi I have been putting it off. Thanks to you Mark I will start by building one tank at a time and then R&R them.
How do you plan to clean/treat the inside of the tanks?
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: kb0zke on September 10, 2017, 08:54:01 pm
My coach leaks down in a couple of days, but it stays level. The next time we move I'm going to measure the distance from each tire to the floor above it and see if it stays the same over time. It seems to me that the coach seems to "settle" over a period of several days, but it always stays level. I have heard the aux compressor run, but that is very rare. As long as the coach stays level I'm happy.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Pamela & Mike on September 10, 2017, 09:20:30 pm
We are on the rock solid side. We have been setting for about 7 weeks with the system off and we have no sag. We (used in the singular form of Mike) had to fix some leaks shortly after we bought this coach, after that all that is done is servicing the 6 packs ever so often.
Pamela
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Mark Duckworth on September 10, 2017, 09:45:48 pm
We are on the rock solid side. We have been setting for about 7 weeks with the system off and we have no sag. We (used in the singular form of Mike) had to fix some leaks shortly after we bought this coach, after that all that is done is servicing the 6 packs ever so often.
Pamela
What's involved in servicing 6-packs?
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: craneman on September 10, 2017, 09:50:06 pm
How do you plan to clean/treat the inside of the tanks?
I have a friend who owns a radiator shop. I will get some of his acid solution and slosh it around in the tanks that show any issues. Will use a bore gauge to check inside them. The fittings going in the tanks all have small leaks which make fuzz with leak check solution.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Mark Duckworth on September 10, 2017, 10:41:56 pm
Fuzz?
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: craneman on September 10, 2017, 10:50:43 pm
I guess I need a pic to show what fuzz is. The bubbles are so small they don't look like bubbles at all just white fuzz.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Tom Lang on September 10, 2017, 11:04:20 pm
Rock solid here, as long as I turn the system off. Another matter altogether if the system is kept on. Walking around the coach and phase of the moon cause it to occasionally let some air out, and after doing that enough times, the compressor needs to run to put some air back. So I just keep it off while sitting.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: John Haygarth on September 10, 2017, 11:42:43 pm
Mark, servicing the 6 packs is not hard just dammed awkward to say the least. They are usually at the top of the frame, just below the floor underside and the best way I have found is to remove the 2 mounting bolts for the alumn plate and cut the ties on wires etc so the whole block comes down to an acceptable working location. For me I can stand under in the Pit but for all else you are sitting or lying down. Make a sketch of the layout and mark each wire and solenoid that will come off each of them as you HAVE to put the correct one back to the same place or lots of fun after. Do the same for the air lines, marking line and location of corresponding valve. There are markings on air lines and stamped #s on block but I like using felt marking pens. Take all wiring (once marked) off and the elec' solenoid that comes with wires. Now you can remove all of the valves at once if you want to get to a better working place. Simple to remove each one and replace the parts and O rings. Clean the inside seatings etc and rebuild. Replacing is of course a reverse of removing and make sure that elec and air goes back to original position. One caveat, for tags they are a bit bigger openings for faster flow of air so make sure they go back to the right ones and of course air etc back as before. Actually very simple if you remember the golden rule- put it all back to original format and you will not have any problems. JohnH
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: jcus on September 10, 2017, 11:54:52 pm
Tom, the moderator of the Newell Forum, puts together rebuild kits and sells them to Newell and Foretravel owners. Do a search and you will find his e-mail address.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Pamela & Mike on September 11, 2017, 06:52:32 am
Mark, They get pulled down and get a general cleaning. New "O" rings. Check coils resistance. Check plunger seats I do break from the rest here and get my plungers from Valve Wizard | Peter Paul (https://peterpaul.com/valve-wizard) have used these people for years before I retired. Check the internal air galley springs for breakage. Test pressure switches for proper operation. Most important thing make sure the exhaust ports aren't clogged. (mud/dirt daubers love those little exhaust ports) I have even tried to put a filter in the port but it restricts the flow also and you get slower reaction which can result in broken windshield.
Member Chuck did a real good thread with pictures on what I have been doing. He is way better at explaining things than I am with his show and tell ability. Working On My Six Pack (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=27491.0)
Like others have said it isn't that big of job after you get the six packs to the work bench.
Pamela & Mike
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 11, 2017, 07:49:16 am
If new members are interested in the history of our relationship with Tom McCloud, try reading through the thread linked below, and the links to other threads contained therein. Then you will be up to speed and can decide if you need to order some rebuild kits.
Mine stays rock solid. Of course, I have eight safety blocks in place! jor
But are you level?
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: kb0zke on September 11, 2017, 11:04:30 am
I was outside this morning when the system decided to relevel. It releases air on the high side, so that's why the coach seems to sink over time but remains level. Of course, once the coach is down to being on a tire that corner can't go down any more, so the compressor will have to run to raise the low side.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: jor on September 11, 2017, 04:26:06 pm
Quote
But are you level?
levelish...
jor
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: George on September 11, 2017, 04:33:15 pm
That's the reason I don't auto level, it can go down on the frame, this puts stress on my windshield. I go to manual level, works better for me .
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 11, 2017, 06:17:42 pm
That's the reason I don't auto level, it can go down on the frame, this puts stress on my windshield. I go to manual level, works better for me .
If you prefer manual leveling (some members do) and are happy doing it that way, then that's all that matters.
BUT, for the benefit of our recent members who may be new to "auto leveling", I would like to point out that the HWH automatic leveling system is designed so it should not twist the frame or stress the windshield. This assumes that the leveling system is working properly, and that the two 10 psi pressure switches on the front 6-pack manifold are functioning correctly.
IF the above assumptions are true, then the HWH auto leveling system will do the following:
1. It will attempt to level the coach by releasing air from the appropriate bags until level.
2. If releasing air from either of the front corners results in air pressure in the bags dipping below 10 psi, then air release from the opposite front corner bags will be inhibited.
3. If at that point the coach is not level, then the system will add air (using the aux compressor if required) to the appropriate bags until level is achieved, or until it gives up and the "EXCESS SLOPE" light comes on.
Since the HWH system stops lowering the front of the coach as soon as one (front corner) air bag pair is almost empty (i.e. on the mechanical stops), the coach frame should never be subject to any twisting force, and the windshield panels (especially on the GVs) should not suffer from any undue stress.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: saddlesore on September 11, 2017, 08:31:42 pm
This assumes that the leveling system is working properly, and that the two 10 psi pressure switches on the front 6-pack manifold are functioning correctly.
IF the above assumptions are true, then the HWH auto leveling system will do the following:
1. It will attempt to level the coach by releasing air from the appropriate bags until level.
2. If releasing air from either of the front corners results in air pressure in the bags dipping below 10 psi, then air release from the opposite front corner bags will be inhibited.
3. If at that point the coach is not level, then the system will add air (using the aux compressor) to the appropriate bags until level is achieved, or until it gives up and the "EXCESS SLOPE" light comes on.
Question.... where is the sensor that tells the 12v air compressor to turn on and add air? Once in a while the 12 v will add air to the whole system (sometimes it does but most times it does not), but not for leveling.
Ours never has worked even tho MOT & OTM both have worked on the system to fix this issue. ie: 12v adding air to level
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 11, 2017, 10:17:38 pm
Question.... where is the sensor that tells the 12v air compressor to turn on and add air?
I can't say how your system works, because your coach is much newer than ours. You need to determine what HWH leveling series is fitted to your coach, and then find the online documentation, which should answer your question. Find your system here:
http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml17785_01_nom_pr_lesy.pdf (Keep scrolling down - it is a long document)
On our coach, the HWH 600 Series control box looks at the 85 psi pressure switch that is mounted on the rear 6-pack manifold. If system air pressure is less than 85 psi, and if the control box receives a call for any kind of "raise" function (either manually from the operator or from the auto leveling system), then the 12V aux compressor will run. On our coach, the aux compressor does not try to fill any of the three pressure tanks - the output goes directly to the front and rear 6-pack manifolds, and from there to the appropriate air bags.
As I said, your system may operate differently.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Don & Tys on September 11, 2017, 10:35:09 pm
Good clear and concise explanation. Reading it made me wonder about the possibility of changing the 10 psi switches for a higher value, say 15 or 20psi. That may be enough to keep the tires clear of the skin above in most leveling situations. Better yet, an adjustable pressure switch so that you can tailor the low point to protect the wheel wells... One of these days, I may have time to investigate. In the mean time, rebuilding the six packs, replacing the tank check valves, and finding all the leaks I can, as well as putting in my new air dryer to make the system function closer to design specs comes first. All that was supposed to be done before this trip. Oh well, it gives me something to look forward to when we get back. Our coach loses level, usually sagging to driver's side rear over night. The usual way I find out is when the bedroom sliding door slowly creeps open in the middle of the night :o Don
If you prefer manual leveling (some members do) and are happy doing it that way, then that's all that matters.
BUT, for the benefit of our recent members who may be new to "auto leveling", I would like to point out that the HWH automatic leveling system is designed so it should not twist the frame or stress the windshield. This assumes that the leveling system is working properly, and that the two 10 psi pressure switches on the front 6-pack manifold are functioning correctly.
IF the above assumptions are true, then the HWH auto leveling system will do the following:
1. It will attempt to level the coach by releasing air from the appropriate bags until level.
2. If releasing air from either of the front corners results in air pressure in the bags dipping below 10 psi, then air release from the opposite front corner bags will be inhibited.
3. If at that point the coach is not level, then the system will add air (using the aux compressor if required) to the appropriate bags until level is achieved, or until it gives up and the "EXCESS SLOPE" light comes on.
Since the HWH system stops lowering the front of the coach as soon as one (front corner) air bag pair is almost empty (i.e. on the mechanical stops), the coach frame should never be subject to any twisting force, and the windshield panels (especially on the GVs) should not suffer from any undue stress.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 11, 2017, 10:53:11 pm
...made me wonder about the possibility of changing the 10 psi switches for a higher value, say 15 or 20psi.
HWH had the same idea! For some reason, Foretravel elected to install lower pressure rated 10 psi switches, at least in my 600 Series system. Don't know why...
See the .pdf excerpt below from the HWH Leveling Systems Text Book, right column, 2nd paragraph from the top:
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: TulsaTrent on September 12, 2017, 03:28:38 am
Our coach loses level, usually sagging to driver's side rear over night.
Mine is similar; the passenger side stays up much longer.
I have discovered that if I lower the passenger side to keep it level, it will stay level after the air pressure is gone. If I forget to do that soon after parking, it seems to stay unlevel.
Trent
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Michelle on September 12, 2017, 08:46:16 pm
Question.... where is the sensor that tells the 12v air compressor to turn on and add air? Once in a while the 12 v will add air to the whole system (sometimes it does but most times it does not), but not for leveling.
This could be a couple of things, a little more "observational behavior" can help with diagnosis (either here or some info you can share with HWH to get assistance):
Does the auto leveling work fine with the coach engine running and supplying air when raising a corner/side is needed?
With the engine off, does the auto leveling work as intended when it needs to exhaust air, but it just doesn't seem to work to add air/raise the coach?
If you manually try to raise a side/end without the coach engine running, do you hear the raise solenoids click (someone needs to be outside, close to the coach to listen) and does the aux compressor come on?
Does the aux compressor come on (with the engine off) when you go to deflate the slide bladder(s)?
There are a couple of means that turn on the aux compressor, and it has 2 power supply lines. One is fused inline with the compressor (usually), the other is a 12V breaker. I've read of a few owners that have added a switch to kill all power to the aux compressor, but since both MOT and OTM have worked on your system, if one was there they should have seen it. There is also the HWH controller which has to send the signal to the compressor that something needs to be raised and it's not going up, so aux compressor assistance is needed.
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: Numbers on September 13, 2017, 08:14:28 pm
Our coach stays level with the Aux compressor when the tanks are at zero PSI.
Remember that all systems have specs that are within tolerance. The HWH leveling system may not put the bubble in the dead center of the bulls eye, but it can still be operating within HWH factors specs. Here is the spec quoted from HWH's Air Leveling Textbook:
The sensing unit has an accuracy tolerance of +/- 3/4 degrees. This translates into approximately 1 inch from side to side and 5.4" from front to rear on a 36' vehicle when the sensing unit is mounted in the middle of the vehicle. The length of the vehicle and where the sensing unit is mounted can change these figures.
I've monitored our system with a bubble level that has degrees marked on it, and it remains within tolerance. Sure the bubble may move from the 12 o'clock position on the level to the 3 o'clock position, but it's always within the specs.
Our air system leaks down at a rate of 3 PSI per hour, which is twice as good as the Foretravel standard published in the owners manual, and worlds better than the DOT standard. So I don't worry about chasing down leaks to get it better.
Chris
Title: Re: Air leveling question
Post by: saddlesore on September 13, 2017, 10:03:19 pm
For now will just wait until the NW rally in Astoria, OR. might get to pick some brains there & more eyes (and ears) the better to surmise the situation.. A little update... Got to looking and the tall relay that goes to the Thomas compressor has 2 terminals on top, well...seems that these studs are both loose in the housing(I can twist one of them and it makes/breaks connection) and the terminal nut that goes directly to the compressor was loose as well, now have the compressor running and cycling as I think it should....(Unless it breaks connection again). went online to HWH and ordered a replacement... And then discovered a hyd leak on the slideout connections @ a junction manifold block...grrrr If it ain't one thing gone bad it's three..