Has anyone on here converted their original propane furnace equipped Foretravel to a hydronic heating system such as Aquahot?
I'm very much considering doing this and trying to get input from anyone who might have done it themselves. I'm also seeking pictures on the original Foretravel Aquahot installations regarding the Aquahot exhaust installation and routing, placement of air handlers in the wet bays, and how you supply fresh air to the Aquahot.
Thanks.
Edit: I'm looking at one of the ITR Oasis units like the Combi or the CH50.
On a 34 ft coach, you only have one bay free, You might consider the fact that you will use a good portion of it for the unit itself.
Currently looking at putting it in the spot that would have held the propane tank since I won't need it anymore so as to not lose any existing space.
WOW
I have worked on ton's of them. Have pulled and replaced lots of them, because the exhaust hit our low drive at the Liberty Lake FT store, and broke the heat exchanger. I tell you this, so you understand I am that familiar.
I understand some of the benefits with them,but as nice as they are, it would be a huge undertaking.There is far more to the system, then the unit itself.Not saying it can't be done.
Realize they are also very high maintenance. For boon docking, they draw a lot of dc voltage. After all my experiences with them, and realizing I will be stepping on a lot of toes here, I choose our U295, because it didn't have one.
Just my 2 cents as a tech
Chris
It would be super difficult to service it, in that position (side ways)
Quite an ambitious project, You will have an all electric coach now, so you might have to add more batteries unless to wish to run generator or stay plugged in all the time. In colder temps, the aquahot blowers and pumps draw a pretty good 12 volt current.
Exhaust is just a pipe through the bottom of the coach, and propane tank area already has fresh air inlet. Running hose and wire to all your heat exchangers is going to be your biggest challenge.
@gracerace I appreciate the advice. I've had problems with both my Atwood water heater and furnace (both less than 3 years old) in the last year and tired of having to hunt down places to refill propane in the winter. Now that I've done away with the propane refrigerator, I'm trying to convert the RV to all electric.
I could also move the proposed hydronic heater over to the area that currently holds the batteries and swap them into the old propane bay. The batteries will eventually be replaced with lithium ion batteries and placed under the kitchen cabinets in the space where the furnace is located so that they are not subjected to temperature extremes.
Robert, Something to think about: Hydronic heating has some advantages, but there are many who make a living servicing Aquahot, but there is no one making a living servicing propane furnaces.
Wouldnt space heaters be cheaper and easier?
I questioned this same project 10 years ago,after all the parts and pieces the price was at 10k plus my time, I can buy alot of propane for for that price.
Something I'd never consider, unless my floor safe was full of CBs. Those furnances should give a lot more years than three. We've had Atwoods that have lasted 10 years and that being full-timers. The ignitor boards are always suspect, as is the propane regulator.
The factory boards bite, we switched to Dinosaur Electronics Home. High quality circuit boards for RV appliances. (http://www.dinosaurelectronics.com) ^.^d
I was at the Aqua Hot facility four or five years ago and asked them that question. They told me they could do it for about 30 grand. I think it would be a great project and you will have a big audience here.
jor
Why not install an all electric water heater, and couple of base boards. Have one in our 36', keeps the whole coach warm.
Not sure why you are having issues with your heater and W/H. they are super reliable, use the same control board, and cheap to fix.
These look like possible solutions.
Eberspacher
(https://www.eberspacher.com/applications/motorhome.html)
Webasto: Heating solutions for motorhomes and caravans (https://www.webasto.com/int/markets-products/recreational-vehicles/heating-solutions/)
Some of those Espar units are fascinating. Found a couple of sites that showed class B units mounting them underneath the body, exposed to the outside, so it wouldn't even take up any interior space. A very interesting possibility.
When I was peterbilt we installed a lot of Webasto units. Interior heater was an airtop 2000 I beleive. Very small serviced every couple years but good parts availability. One tech took a used unit and put it in his one car garage for the winter it ran almost constant even thought the doors weren't opened he kept a boat in there. Fuel consumption was 5 gallons in four day running basically wide open. Engine heaters were bolted to the frame external.
The Primus system that was installed in a very few Foretravels and many more Bluebirds, is similar to the Webasto, but runs on propane.
+or- 1 degree from the top to bottom or front to back of the coach. Run through the dash so you have heated windshield defrost and dash heat before you even start the engine. Base board heat along each side wall front to back . Heats the hot water tank and engine. Very stingy on DC power.
Two propane fired boilers take up less than 2'x2' area in the engine compartment under the isolator.
Foretravel ultimately chose the Aqua hot system over the Primus.
Now that Primus is no longer in business some Primus owners are switching there systems over to the Webasto diesel fired system.
How about running the diesel genset and divert the heat from the radiator to provide heat for coach and hot water, heck tie into the very heavy engine block. Might be able to shut off the genset at 8 and coast thru the night using the battery bank and electric heaters in the bedroom.
We still procrastinate about getting our Primus working again. Cannibalizing the system might not be that bad--put a new heater/pump to the existing plumbing. FT did a nice job of plumbing the coach throughout in the day. I'm still studying. For now, I'm avoiding the cool weather by leaving Rockford, IL tomorrow. Some smart geese flew over tonight--southbound.
Hydronic systems like the AquaHot use more than air handlers - heated fluid pushed by the circulating pump runs to each fan (Cozy heat exchanger) and there are multiple heat exchangers and zones to plumb/wire. Seems like you'd be tearing into cabinetry, under closet flooring, etc.
Webasto diesel to air heaters could be installed directly in place of each furnace with their own thermostats like the current furnace system. Boiler system could work if you put the heat exchangers where the furnaces are you could use the existing ducting.
Quick playing on the calculator I noticed I couldn't get the sizing up to a 36 foot unit.
After reading through this whole thread, I'm thinking I would try to trade coaches and get a similar one with Aquahot. KISS
Robert, I think it would help you to find someone with an AquaHot installed to see for yourself how it is done. Most of the heated coolant lines run along the inside top of the bays. The newer heat exchanger fans are very low current. Pump current draw is not much and they only run when the zone calls for heat. The burner blower is probably the highest draw. In the 30's and 40s with the living room zone on the burner/blower runs about 20 min once an hour or so. We have three heat exchangers in the LR but turn off the one in the dash. These run for pretty short periods of time. At mid 30s the electric heater is adequate. It you are running all of the zones and using a lot of hot water maybe not for a short period.
The wet bay has a heat exchange one each end. They are on the bathroom zone but have their own thermostat. Ours is set to about 40° and even down in the high 20s it rarely comes on.
We just came across Montana with overnight temps in the 20s. 3 hrs of engine preheat from the AH and our ISM11 started at about 105°. Very nice!
If you run the diesel for a single ambient to full heated cycle once a month all year you can expect the "annual" maint to last 2-3 years. I just replaced my clean burning nozzle at three years because I had other maintenance to do. The fuel pump was replaced in this model under an AH program and we replaced the igniter. Other than that just regualr use and maintenance.
Ours is between the front batteries and the LP tank behind the fuel tank. Not the easiest place to work but I get in there and do it. Easier I would think than changing batteries or working on them in that spot. Easier if I was a smaller person.
It would be a big project but doable. You can get rebuilt AH units from John Carrillo in Denver for less than new ones.
After more than 30 years with RV LP furnaces and now 6 with an AH we would be hard pressed to go back.
With a residential refrig you are probably going to want to increase total battery capacity mostly for the refrig. With 3 8Ds and an LP refrig we were OK over night even at zero just on batteries. With an AH and a res refrig you will want more battery capacity.
Roger
Always buy the coach you eventually want.. Conversions of heating, engine power, toilets, slides, etc to mimic other models are never as good and can be future maintenance problems.
The aqua hot adds 55 degrees to whatever temp the inlet water supply is at if you want continious hot water.
Hence the heated tank Bay. One to prevent freezing, the second is to raise the inlet water temp for the owners who want resulting hotter tap or shower water.
Later aqua hot or Oasis units seem to have double or more the 110 volt heating power than our early 1500 watt 15 amp draw units. 5,000 Btus
Much below 50 degrees or so on ours I add the diesel burners 50,000 btu's
Obviously there is more noise and smells with the burner on. Hence the increased a/c power heating capacity to go with the bigger coaches needs
I'll never give up my 34'er and they didn't come with Aquahot.
@Roger I appreciate all the info about locations and routing. That is generally the layout I had expected from what I've read over the years on the forum but it is nice to know for sure how Foretravel set everything up.
One BIG reason I have a 270, no Aquahot. Where's Rudy ?
Perhaps there was a good reason why Foretravel didn't put Aquahot on the short coaches?
Trade up structure comes to mind. List of added features in the more expensive coaches.
Lack of under coach area for boiler?
Well, I agree with B&C. This would be a major rework project with lots of pretty tough parts to get done and many opportunities for problems.
Visiting someone with a coach with an AquaHot when it is cool enough to use it will give you a better idea of how they work, what the heat feels like, noise level of heat exchangers and the diesel boiler, temperature distribution in the room and more.
If an AquaHot or other hydronic heating system really seems right for you them it might be easier to find a different coach with one installed from the factory.
Roger
Anyone try a newer heated floor, like Warmup:
Electric Floor Heating Systems | Underfloor Insulation | Warmup (http://www.warmup.com)
When using 15 amps of the 30 amp shore power, at 3.41 BTUs per watt, that's 5882 BTU. Anyone know how many BTUs our rigs need at 32 degrees F?
Our aquahot produces 5,000 btu's on 15 amps of electricity being as its heating the tank Bay and a 40' and with some heat loss through the hoses and system the flooring probably should do pretty well. Not sure about 32 degrees but may cut down the furnace run time by a lot.
That's the way I probably would try myself.
Below 50 I need to add the diesel burner for sure. Close to 50 altering the thermostat settings can keep one area hotter.
Don't know what brand it was, but I had a SOB with granite floors with heat, It would keep the coach warm into the 50's. Do not know how much current it drew, but it was on a 15 amp breaker. If I ever redo my floors, I will install one.
I've got an electric heated floor that I installed. I can't remember for sure but I think I used this Thermosoft product (https://www.thermosoft.com/en-US/radiant-under-floor-heating/for-laminate-engineered-wood). It works as the primary heat source down to about 36-40 degrees. After that, it needs help from another heat source.
I've mentioned this before in other posts but the main issue with the floor heat is that it doesn't consistently heat the entire RV. It works extremely well (probably down to the low 30s) in the area that has the basement under it but works less well in at the ends of the RV where the approx 2" thick insulated floor is exposed to outside ambient air temperatures. It still functions at keeping the floor less cold but can't really overcome the cold enough to provide useable heat. Electric floor heat would likely be much more effective if you enclosed it in a thin layer of mortar so that it can use it as a heatsink and also tighten up the spacing of the wiring to 2" to put more heat into the floor at the ends of the RV.
My floor heat uses about 1000 watts at full power. Less when it has achieved the proper temperature and the thermostat instructs it to turn down the power to just enough to keep the floor warm.
The 1500 watt electric heating element in the AquaHot in our coach would produce 5100 BTU if it was on full time which it rarely is. Some of the newer AH have 2000 watt heater elements or more.
Rudy put in a heated film under vinyl plank flooring. It hasn't been cool enough yet (in Houston) to put it to the test.
A warm floor is very nice. I am pretty sure there isn't enough floor space in a coach to be effective with respect to the heat loss from thinner insulation and windows. But as a supplement the advantage of warm floors would be nice.
I have two 1500 watt heat elements in my aquahot, it will interesting to see if they can keep the coach warm without using the diesel part. I do know they supply enough heat for several showers. [but it is summer time in houston so water is already at 90 F.]
Our single 1500 watt element is good for us down to upper 30's. Maybe low 40's if that is the average temp. We might be more comfortable at a lower temp than many. Two elements will be great.
Can elements be added or what they come with is it? or can a larger one be put in as a replacement or no?
Newells have two elements, 1 is 110v the other 220v and unit looks like the same one as Foretravel uses. Mine came with two and wiring and switch for the extra element. So I think so. Need Rudy to give ua a definitive answer.
Yes it can be done but it is a lot of work.
The short version: (think Cliffs Notes)
drain unit
remove unit
take outside covers off
locate proper place for new boss
wash sludge out of bottom
weld in boss
put in 2 new elements
reverse the disassembly
install new breaker
run new wire from said breaker to heater through a closing relay
run new closing relay control wire in parallel with current one that feeds OEM element
If I haven't forgot anything I think that is all that was to it. It has been a while sense I did this though.
Pamela & Mike
Appears you could order one that had 2 110 volt elements already installed.
http://www.aquahot.com/files/owners_manual/AHE-100-04S130-04XAqua-HotOwnersManual09-29-04_002.pdf
Guess it depends on year and model. Mine is not shown on the options sheet, so must have been standard equipment.
How do we get one in Florida that COOLS the floors and coach. I can't remember a series of summers with more heat and humidity than the last decade or so.
Can't wait to travel and complain about being cold!
There may be another way to have hydronic heating.
Search for espar hydronic d5
Small self contained diesel unit that would output hot antifreeze to a exchanger/fan unit.
Thinking of under the couch?
Maybe a second one in the rear? 5200/17000 btu's low/high
Built in water pump.
At the area hot water. Versus a central boiler.
My guru buddy likes and uses them.
I spent considerable time learning how to work on our furnaces in our old 280 and couple that bought it from us had to replace parts on the brand new rear furnace.. one of the deciding factors in upgrading to our 320 was the aqua hot. Oh yeah filling propane every couple weeks in dead of winter BLOWS.
My Newell had a 1500 watt element and a 4500 watt element and would heat water as fast as it would on diesel. Cut it on diesel and electric at the same time and would heat the water to 200 degrees in about 15 minutes. If you was using the A/Cs you could only use the diesel.
I'm increasingly looking at one of the Espar hydronic systems. The hydronic heater appears to be located wherever you want, including in the engine compartment of the RV rather than being inside the the basement. Here is a retrofit install in place of a propane furnace (http://www.rixens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Propane-Retro-fit-Information.pdf). This would solve the issue of having to drill a hole in the bottom of the RV and having a low hanging exhaust pipe that seems likely to be ripped off. The parts appear to be much easier to obtain and widely available.
I believe you will still need an exhaust outside the coach if you are going with the diesel unit. If you look at the picture of the boiler unit, you will see an insulated pipe at the bottom going down. On my bus conversion had a small webasto boiler in rear compartment, but still needed an insulated exhaust pipe running under and outside of coach. Diesel exhaust is a lot hotter and smellier than a propane furnace.
Or you could do it like Newell, run pipe out of top of coach.
Check with Rixen's Enterprises — Complete Comfort Control (http://www.rixens.com) for heating systems.