I am considering a EMS-HW50C for my coach, if i wire it after the transfer switch will i get a lot of nuisance trips? I have a 6.5kw propane powered genset so when the roof a/c units cycle i get a pretty good voltage dip.
I think I already fried my microwave when I plugged coach into an improperly wired 115vac outlet in my garage, red light came on the voltage monitor and unplugged immediately.
We almost burned the coach down because of a bad pedestal, fried the shore power cable connections, including the female at the wet bay. WAIT!, it's not over: we fried the ATS and almost fried the gen set , it wanted to start, but would not.Got the pedestal-mount Progressive, which will work with 50/30/15 amps. If the power is not right, it will not let you do a thing, It has a delay, just in case the gen-set wants to come on during a power outage. Buy one! ^.^d
I don't think you will get a lot of nuisance trips, since the progressive EMS doesn't disconnect shore power until voltage sags below a
hundred and eight volts or so The low cut off is 104, not 108, and high cut off is 132... Thanks Dave K. You can download the progressive manual from their website if you want to look up the exact numbers... however, your transfer switch will be exposed to bad power from the shore connection. I wired ours ahead of the transfer switch where power comes into the coach. The gotcha on that arrangement is that you won't be protected from generator power fluctuations. My solution to that issue is to install a second progressive EMS with a remote readout near the generator. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten around to that yet... if you're going to have only one, then after the transfer switch is probably the way to protect the most financially important items in your coach. The transfer switch is cheaper then most of the things that can get fried and inside the coach from bad generator power. Some have negated that issue by installing a manual transfer switch and if mine fails due to age or what have you, I may consider going that route, but as it stands how are transfer switch works flawlessly (hope I didn't just jinx that!). So the plan remains to install the second EMS between the generator and the transfer switch.
Don
I think if I used the gen set more, I would also do what Don is planning to do (someday) with a second EMS.
A cautionary tale for what it is worth. We are currently staying in an older RV park that a couple of weeks ago had some power issues (aluminum wire and aging equipment). The "arm" of the park that we were staying in experienced power fluctuations. Jumped to 129 volts and then would drop down to about 106 volts. There were about twenty rigs in our "arm" or street of the park. The EMS on most of the rigs did their thing and shut the power down on the rigs to save the electronics. The few with no EMS pretty much fried their electronics. Since this was an on going issue for the evening I noticed that the folks parked next to us never had their power go out. Trust me on this everyone was outside wondering what was happening to the power and the rigs were shutting down and lighting up like pin ball machines (after the two and a half min delay on the EMS). Why did the guy next to us never loose power? He was running an Hughes Autoformer. It adjusted for the fluctuation in power by shunting or boosting the power to off set the surge. For more detailed information on how voltage regulators (Hughes Autoformers) work just Google the topic and it will explain the physics of how they do this. In addition his Hughes Autoformer had a built in EMS as well so he was double protected (actually two different issues but you get the drift). I, for one, am up grading my EMS to an Autoformer from this experience myself. The Autoformer is about $100 bucks more than the top of the line Progressive EMS so yes they are pricey, about $600 bucks give or take ($535 at Amazon on sale today) and they can be hard wired in to the unit as well. Just throwing it out there to mull over when making decisions....
Too lazy to build in the progressive EMS,
We have one campground that at 5pm has a large voltage drop enough to trip it.
For that 30 amp old busy Park I plug in our Hughes autoformer to the pedestal then the EMS into that.
I need the power fixed and protected,
Randy's post was done at the same time
Having the two together would be cheaper. And heavier if you only need the EMS
Reading about the Hughes Autoformer at the Hughes website indicates that the Autoformer does include surge protection, but it says nothing about an EMS being included. Are you sure that the Autoformer has EMS? There is a big difference between surge protection and EMS. In fact, the website says that the Autoformer goes into Pass Thru Mode when the voltage falls below 95 volts or goes above 118 volts.
I guess it would depend on a definition of EMS.
"Electrical Management System (EMS) helps to protect your RV against voltage fluctuations, power surges and incorrectly wired shore power which can cause sever and costly damage to RV appliances and electronics".
If one was to search the forum you will find several individuals that have added an inline Autoformer with a Progressive HW50-C which would be in my opinion the best way to go but on the same token a little over the top due to cost. That would be a true definition of inclusive EMS. With the added surge protection the Autoformer actually meets all the criteria mentioned above.
As far as the pass through voltage that would be correct. If an individual was looking for a non pass through model I am sure that they would be available for considerably much more dinero from a different manufacture. That was why I had mentioned to Google the product to see how it would work and if it would be something worth considering.
Lots of money for both a Autoformer and a progressive ems. The cheaper autoformer has a replaceable by them internal fuse I think where the newer more expensive unit has a user replaceable fuse and more indicators.
As i already had a ems I bought the older Autoformer.
Both work were well.
I think you will find Hughes Autoformer simply measures voltage and switches a primary wire on their (heavy) transformer IF the voltage is below a set-point. It will not disconnect if voltage is too high or too low. Many devices have "so called" surge protection which is usually a bunch of 50-cent MOVs that clamp a high voltage to ground which destroys the MOV. EMS devices also have a surge protection circuit board, but the reason for the EMS is its ability to disconnect coach from incorrectly wired plugs and voltages out of range. Autoformers have their place when voltage is too low, and we ONLY use our Hughes when in a campground with way too low voltages, otherwise we depend on our two EMS relay to protect shore and generator from damaging our coach electronics.
Wow, all this input is making my head spin. My oem ATS is somewhat suspect, and may go to a simple blue sea switch or a Surge Guard ATS or build a cheap versital pedestal checker and a basic surge and voltage protection unit. I know it's not bulletproof real time protection like the progressive unit with all the bells and whistles. I have no inverter yet, or sensitive 115 vac electronic gear other than than the microwave that can be replaced by for $200. KISS, that being said I think I will table this issue until I get a better vision, strong ac electrical foundation yes, bulletproof, no.
Since taking a surge/short almost trashed the coach, scared the pucky out of us, not to metion the CB & 1/2 repair, getting the top-of-the-line EMS was a no-brainer! ^.^d
I have two built-in Progressive EMS's - one before the transfer switch (protects the transfer switch), and one after the transfer switch (protects against generator glitches.) Considering the cost of the electrical/electronic stuff in the coach, I thought it was cheap insurance. The EMS shuts down if voltage goes under 104V or over 132V.
I have the portable Progressive EMS and I never plug in without it. Cheap insurance.
I wouldn't recommend a Surge Guard ATS if you are trying to be practical. They are basically one-hit units, so if a surge did occur, it would take out the ATS. Even the RV manufacturers who are installing them as standard recommend an upstream surge protector to protect the Surge Guard ATS.
Watch RV classifieds for used portable surge protectors if you want to be frugal. Sometimes folks sell/trade/downsize and have perfectly fine, albeit used, surge protectors for sale or perhaps they went to a hardwired unit and put their portable up for sale.
I just remembered, there is NOTHING more scary than the smell of a fried ATS in the morning!
I am an electrical engineer who has reviewed the specs of EMS and Autoformer. Until the industry creats an all-in-one solution, I will hold off on spending around $500 for a solution. My specs are:
- Three-stage lightning surge protection, not a one-shot solution, but a button-resettable or cheap user-replaceable / modular solution.
- UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply). If the shore power drops, spikes or browns out, give two minutes of warning to shut down the RV systems in a controlled manner). This would require a small lithium battery.
- Light weight, using modern buck-boost pure sine wave switching regulator technology
(Hughes uses 1930's iron transformer technology.)
- Use of a computer with a great UI (User Interface) screen to see the quality of the incoming and outgoing power.
- High-voltage protection up to 250 VAC (In case 220 VAC is applied to a 120 VAC line)
- Tolerant of mis-wired shore power pedestals. If one leg of 220 VAC is mis-wired of missing (I've seen this), warn the user of how much / quality of power available, but allow it to be used.
I wouldn't mind paying $1,000 for such a device. But not $600 for boat anchors that offer a false sense of security.
Anyone want to fund a start-up company to make a true EMS (Energy Management System) with the above specifications? Several $million should be sufficient to do the Research and Development.
Please post here when you find (or do a Kickstart campaign to develop it)!
Don
Tim may be on to something, but until then, I'll trust my EMS. We get "monsoons" during the summer here in Arizona. More than a few coaches have been damaged by surges and lightning strikes. Not us. ^.^d
We have used the portable Progressive EMS for six months and have experienced two episodes (one of low voltage and one of reverse polarity) where power was denied to the coach. The reverse polarity situation was a newly installed pedestal. I viewed older, beaten-up receptacles with suspicion before these experiences. Now I look at each connection with pretty skeptical eyes. Yikes.
I am thinking about which unit to plug in first.
Seems to be the EMS then the auromformer into it for the EMS to protect the autoformer from a surge?
Been doing it the other way as my real needs are to fix the power
My thoughts were if the Autoformers cannot fix the power then the EMS can cut it off?
I would never put the Autoformer in front of the Progressive unit. While it is true that the Autoformer may seem worth protecting based on its price, these units can fail sending 220VAC into what ever is downstream of it. I would rather have the EMS there to safeguard the coach from possible problems caused by a failed Autoformer. We had one fail that was hooked up to Tys's parkmodel and it destroyed a fridge, a microwave, a stereo, and maybe a few other things as well. I was sitting in a chair when it happened and I noticed the digital meter on the front of a UPS the computer was plugged into giving voltage readings that varied from about a 160 to to over 200 volts. Huges fixed the unit under warranty, but they refused to address the damage it caused. That was when I installed a Progressive EMS on the park model, and it was one of the first upgrades on the coach when we started using it. We still have the Autoformer, and I will use it if the voltage is borderline low, but in those cases I am very watchful of power usage and it is plugged in in front of the EMS which is hardwired before the transfer switch. Still, it is handy for those occasional uses as it saves appliances from the abuse of running on lower than optimal voltage. Keeping the voltage up, minimizes the current draw, which should be a win win for all concerned, but I am careful to not rely on the "magic perpetual power machine" ::) .
Don
That's the way I had been doing this. Had not prioritized a autoformer failure. Thanks for the incident results posting.
The autoformer came with a small lock cable I do use looped through both pieces just to slow anyone down if they wanted them.
That must/would have been ugly to have them hooked up the other way and have the autoformer fail itself.
Not seen any/many reports on gen power issues needing an EMS built in? Cannot be wrong having one I guess
Any noise from a built in progressive unit?
Did I miss them?
Ah, here's another proposed feature, called "Storm Guard".
Storm Guard will:
1. Detect an approaching storm with it's lightning and wind detectors.
2. Disconnect power from your rig. Your internal 12volt power will stay connected to run your refrigerator.
3. Reconnect power when the storm has passed.
By disconnecting your rig's power from damaging thunder storms, you could save hundreds of labor hours and thousands of dollars in equipment replacement costs.
Our hardwired Progressive EMS has saved us several times from low voltage and poorly wired posts. Maybe it is not the perfect everything solution but it is way better than the potential damage caused with nothing. Perfect is the enemy of sufficient.
Victor Lipman wrote in Forbes a few yeas ago ... [trimmed a bit for brevity]
Pursue excellence, not perfection - There's a vast difference if you're able to frame the endeavor this way. Excellence is attainable, perfection isn't. Excellence is an admirable goal, perfection a potentially destructive one. As the definition in Psychology Today notes, perfectionists view life "as an endless report card on accomplishments."
Try seeing yourself through the eyes of others - The irony is that the accomplishments of many perfectionists ... are exceptional by any objective standards. Easier said than done I know, but if you can find the perspective to view yourself as others do, it will be a constructive lens to look through.
Step back and take (well-deserved) pride in what you've accomplished - And where exactly do you want that lens to focus? Instead of dwelling on outcomes and projects that haven't gone perfectly, step back and spend some time reflecting on past accomplishments you're genuinely pleased with.
If you feel perfectionism has become seriously debilitating, you may want to consider counseling or therapy...
Laugh - Cliche though it is, laughter is good medicine, a natural mood changer. Find time if you can to not take yourself too seriously and remember to laugh. We're all on the same ski slope so to speak, all just passing through the great bumpy freestyle mogul of life, and if you can find a little more time to see the humor and "enjoy the ride" - well, that's only a positive thing.
Well, have an excellent day,
Roger
The progressive EMS is a PERFECT solution for what it is designed for. There is no better product on the market for the price and function. It's not supposed to boost voltage. If you have a low voltage problem, go to a different RV park.
We agree with Don & Tys in that our Hughes Autoformer is put away and not powered unless we have a significant need like low voltage in hot weather. When in use, it is out of the weather in a secure area in the bay with a short motorhome cable and separate shore 50-amp extension. Our permanent wired EMS devices are after the Autoformer. We have only used our Autoformer 3 times in 8 years.
Tim, while waiting for the ideal device and saving the $340 cost for Progressive Industries HW50C Hardwired EMS Surge & Electrical Protection- 50 Amps, you may experience multiple thousands from over or under voltage campground / generator anomalies.
At least with the EMS you get 3-mode surge with easily replaceable circuit board, over & under voltage & reversed wiring protection.
I think you will find the $340 covers 3 of the 6 items you mentioned, and completely covers the most important ones.
When voltage goes suddenly too high or too low in the middle of the day, coach will be instantly protected from damage, but there will not be electrical service, which can be covered by running generator. All for $340 at Amazon...
What he said! Don't just move to a different site in the park, bail!
My local mountain campground has very limited roomy sites without close company and is heavily booked.
The old 30 amp power levels drop in the 5pm time frame. EMS triggered several times before the Autoformers help.
No option. No moving. So I hook up the autoformer then the EMS.
I assume it completely detaches the power cord from the coach? Best practices in an approaching thunderstorm - many "hits" come in on the "ground" conductor.
(Electrical engineer who worked in the emissions/susceptibility field ;) ).
My 2003 suffered a burned contactor in the transfer switch three years ago while suffering from multiple voltage sags. Fixed by replacing the contactor.
The good news is that my coach has under and over voltage protection built in. Also good news is that nothing other than the contacts was damaged.
The bad news is that troubleshooting involved turning the voltage dials up and down, defeating voltage protection. Also bad news is that I had to eyeball turning the dials back. No idea what voltages trip them now. I will need a variable auto-transformer to adjust, monitor, and properly set the voltages.
Yes, Storm Guard would have a high-voltage relay in each of the four legs. A the high-voltage relay would offer 100KV isolation voltage from a storm or other anomalous power event. This new design would not be perfect, but the TrueEMS would resolve most RV power concerns, weighing in at only 10 pounds plus UPS lithium battery.
Until then, I am going unprotected...no power protection except my wits and an AC volt and frequency meter. My wits tell me to disconnect shore power if it's a:
1. Hot day and
2. Poor campground voltage or frequency or
3. Approaching storms and we won't be around to disconnect power.
That should cover 99% of the problem. I had the Progressive EMS50C in my old rig and it's a good unit that's worth the money. It shut down the power at 105 volts or so. I could have done that myself.
We bought the post mount Progressive when we bought the coach. When we got home, we installed hard wired after ATS. Giving us before and after. Now I test pedestal with portable and then hook up thru it. Temporary sags are adjusted for by multipass with the batteries. Disconnect from post in storms. About all I can do.
IF, and this is a big IF, your Inverter/Charger has an AC pass through and low/high voltage protection, the Inverter will switch to Inverter if the AC voltage goes high or low. Our current motorhome (we sold our Foretravel) has this feature and it is adjustable for the high and low set points. The only, and this is a big ONLY, things that are not protected are the air conditioner/heat pump and the water heater. Everything else is on pass through circuits thru the inverter. They are protected from both shore power and generator. So, for those times when the water heater is on propane, and the ac is not needed, we have full protection without an additional EMS. At least this is what I think I have. I still check the power pole for voltage and other wiring problems before I plug in.
There is nothing automatic about what is traditionally called an "auto-transformer". It's a bit of a misnomer.
Have had a Progressive SSP-50XL for about a year,during our last trip one of the legs went to "blue off,red off",open ground.
I filled out the on line warranty form and just got an email letting me know they are sending out a new unit.Am pleased with
Progressive Industries.
An autoformer is a transformer with a single, tapped, winding, rather than two separate windings. The "auto" part comes from both the input and output side sharing one winding.
The name has nothing to do with automatic operation.
However, the operation of a Hughes autoformer is automatic in the sense a slightly low voltage automatically causes the tap to switch, giving a compensating boost.
Phred, this thread seems to have run amok relative to autoformers. With regards to an Progressive EMS, either hardwired or post mount, it is a good investment that will protect your coach and more importantly you from miswired power connections and low or high voltages.
We were in a park in Florida where the EMS refused to connect, miswired post. I called the office and someone came over actually faster than I expected. He opened the box and indeed it was miswired. It only took a few minutes to correct and the EMS allowed the connection. His comment as he was leaving about the guy in our spot the week before complaining about a tingling when he grabbed the side handle while getting into his fiver gave me the willies. Arrrgh!
Your voltage on the gen set might dip when the AC starts. If it is dropping to near 104 then a second EMS might help protect the ACs. In any case better sooner than later. The first time it faults you will pat yourself on the back and be glad for it.
Especially in the rain I learned long ago(30 years) to barely touch the entry door handle to see if any tingle occurs.
Had forgotten that test.
Pedistal tester is a good start I agree, and cheap to build. But I think it assumes the cord and all recepticale contacts are in good condition. And not a reflection of what happens under load. Looking for good protection unit with stuff I don't think I really need like a remote panel with leads so short that I can't mount it a good location, or ac amp measurements. If I was at an RV park and having issues I would fire up the genset, complaints should then be directed to the park owner provider of substandard electrical services. Is there any truth that hybrid inverters can make up for power supply shortcomings?
"Is there any truth that hybrid inverters can make up for power supply shortcomings?". The answer is yes. Different inverters do it differently. But they do work. Not quite enough power from that 30 amp connection? The Victron will back off charging and start inverting from 12 v to make up the shortfall while it exists.
I have watched ours, Victron, compensate on the control panel. Steph turned on the hairdryer in our 97 and the unit compensated instantly. I was amazed the first time I saw it happen. No dimming, blinking or sag.