Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 26, 2017, 09:45:45 pm
Title: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 26, 2017, 09:45:45 pm
The Victron 800VA pure sine wave inverter is a smaller inverter well suited for a refrigerator. In Eco mode (standby) it uses 1 watt. When in ECO mode, the inverter will switch to standby when the load decreases below a preset value (min load: 15W). Once in standby the inverter will switch on for a short period (adjustable, default: every 2.5 seconds). If the load exceeds a preset level, the inverter will remain on.
I have not tried mine in Eco mode, I am pretty sure my Samsung uses 15 watts or more even at its lowest use level. Average is about 65 watts, running is about 140 watts without the ice maker. Start up loads are higher.
My Victron 3000/12 uses about 20 watts running, 15 watts in AES mode and 8 watts in search mode. 6000 watt peak output. And it will invert to supplement low voltage or higher load demands when connected to a landline. They can charge your start battery and be configured to autostart your generator as well. Five year warranty and they are just over $1400 at Bay Marine. Some discount is available there and shipping on mine was included. My net was close to $1300 and no sales tax (almost $100 here). Shop wisely.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 26, 2017, 09:52:57 pm
Roger, you talked me into it, where can I get it for less than $1300?
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Caflashbob on October 26, 2017, 10:05:12 pm
Roger what are using for your battery charging?
Maybe I am not reading the charts correctly? The magnum MS2812 puts out a continuous 3000 Watts.
The Victron 3000 shows 2,400 Watts? Then 3,000?
One is Watts? The other?
I also wondered where the victron was actually manufactured?
Their company literature shows around 30 employees in the Netherlands.
So I am assuming made in China?
Which is neither good or bad just of interest
Magnum is made in Washington as far as I know.
I researched the blue unit very heavily but neither my guy or repair shop had any info on them.
Alan at bay marine says he distributes them for the boat folks.
Time will tell.
The integrated solar was a definite plus
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 27, 2017, 01:20:44 am
Bob,
Victron MultiPlus has a 120 amp max 4 step charger. I also have a Sterling 40 amp smart charger and 900 watts of solar. Two battery banks for about 1600 amp hr capacity plus start batteries.
3000 VA, 2400 watts continuous, 6000 watts peak. 93% efficiency. See Converting VA to Watts (https://baymarinesupply.com/blog/converting-va-to-watts/)
Victron in a Netherlands Company, products in use, supported and dsitributed worldwide. Five year warranty, durabilityand integration make their products widely used in high end marine and RV applications as well as solar and fixed site installations.
You have speculated that their product are made in China many times, some kind of bias here?
Here is 30 seconds of searching. You and your guru are not looking very hard.
MultiPlus - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-12v-24v-48v-800va-3kva) https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Brochure-Automotive-EN_web.pdf Batteries - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/batteries) Solar Charge Controllers - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/solar-charge-controllers) Panels and System Monitoring - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-systems-remote-monitoring) Chargers - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/chargers) Battery Isolators and Combiners - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners) Battery monitors - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors)
Magnum 2812 is 2800 watts continuous, 3900 max, 88% efficient, 3 yr warranty, 120 amp 4 step charger. Several hundred $ more than the Victron.
Guesses don't count for much. Use what you want to use.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Caflashbob on October 27, 2017, 02:21:39 am
My 2812 must not have read the manual as it was bulk charging at 111 amps today and two hours later was absorbtion charging at 109 amps.
It's four step like the victron
Not a single piece of their literature says where it made, read every page available.
Any source on your unit? The help wanted ad I read for the Netherlands hq mentioned 30 employees and five? Engineers.
Euro is way expensive to build things there. Hence the less expensive probably not made in Europe.
I was/am interested in their product(s). Very much so.
Best made is an outback. Bulletproof. Made here I think. Very expensive.
With your help maybe my stupid questions might be helped.
My guru had zero info and interest as did bio-benefit energy in Costa Mesa, ca. And jb inverter repair in chino! Ca.
Eric and John had never heard of them. Which may be a good thing.
Lack of parts for repairs was/is a long term inverter issue especially on non USA stuff.
Not a normal china fan. May well be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Physically lighter construction. No source. Less output.
Magnum mentions the heavier heat sink they say they found was needed.
I read all those pages I think. Magnum mentions the tests passed like for ambulances.
And what exact corrosion design in their units. Need your help as to what's in a victron?
PCB's conformal coated, powder coated chassis/top, and stainless steel fasteners
I assume victron is the same but no info
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 27, 2017, 10:00:41 am
Labels on boxes... My Victron MultiPlus was made in India as was my Victron ArgoFET isolator. Xantrex Freedom SW 3012 made in China Magnum 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter, made in China. Your 2812 should have a manufacturing label on it as well.
Victron's heritage is high end marine, likely very well qualified for that environment, equally so for mobile. Distributors and service worldwide.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Michelle on October 27, 2017, 10:32:58 am
Any guru not familiar with Victron must not see many high end coaches. Their use is quite prevalent in Prevost conversions.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 27, 2017, 10:56:02 am
Interesting discussion about inverters. Another poster mentions that Magnum will not honor warranty if used in engineroom, guess they are worried about heat. That would rule out my electronic bay for sure. Magnum Energy MSH versus Victron Energy MultiPlus - Cruisers & Sailing Forums (http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/magnum-energy-msh-versus-victron-energy-multiplus-159205.html)
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Tim Fiedler on October 27, 2017, 11:31:19 am
Just had a lot of Solar stuff installed at AM Solar - they do VERY nice work, and they charge a lot for it - I am not a DIY guy when it comes to electrical, so was happy to trade coach bucks for 1080W on roof, Victron MPPT solar controller and Victron Inverter.
AM Solar will sell you outback, Magnum, or Victron. They can tell you the pros and cons of each unit, and know the specific capabilities (and differences) down to the slightest nuance. It was clear to me, that certain use cases tipped the decision in various directions between the different inverter manufacturers. It was also easy to see, that in the absence of some compelling "corner case" application requirement that AM Solar felt the Victron Product was superior overall to Outback and Magnum. Having said all that, obviously AM Solar thought enough of all three products to represent all three.
I wanted one inverter (as opposed to a main inverter and refrigerator/electonics inverter) because the installation of a second inverter would have entailed additional AC and DC cable runs that would not be easy (read $$ for me since again, I am not DIY). At that point it came down to the Magnum 2812 at 30W parasitic, vs. Victron 3000 at about 17W. Add to the fact I already had Victron MPPT and could add the cool Victron color monitor, and Victron is the way I chose to go.
I am really happy so far with the products as well as the install. You will probably work hard to find a shop better than AM Solar. Or more expensive than AM Solar on the install charges. :-) For me, worth the extra coach bucks, your mileage may vary.
For those into more of a DIY capability, Alan at Bay Marine Supply is a great source for technical info and product procurement. Bay Marine Supply (http://baymarinesupply.com)
Of course, companies compete, products change, so it is up to the buyer to seek current information as you make your decisions as the landscape can change significantly in 6 months or a year. AM Solar and Bay Marine both will spend a lot of time working through the options and pros/cons of different manufacturers and configurations.
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz)
TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) 630 240-9139 Gen-Pro
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Don & Tys on October 27, 2017, 11:38:02 am
Playing the specifications game always involves a bit of interpretation to try and get it to an apples to apples comparison. I happened to go with a Magnum unit (the 3000W Hybrid version) after looking a both Victron and Magnum (as well as Outback). All manufactures cherry pick their specification standards to some degree, but careful reading can at least get you in the same ballpark for purposes of comparison. Had I to do it over again, I am not sure which I would choose. When I was looking at the Victron stuff about 4 years ago, their eco system of products was not nearly as complete as it currently is. Their system integration is impressive! That said, on specification basis the Magnum came out ahead on the areas that were most important to me at the time I was looking at them. Just to fill in some of the gaps of a quick reading of the spec of both the Victron 3000 Multiplus and the Magnum MSH-3012M (very similar in all respects to the MS-2812 except for the Hybrid function) Edit: Frustrated that I can't get the specification image to appear inline, so attached as usual below :'( (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action-media;sa=media;in=3840) From the above, you can see that Magnum lists separate efficiency specs for the the battery charger and inverter sections of the unit. Whereas Victron lists a peak power of 6000W, Magnum lists a continuous power in terms of sustained output for a period of time. Both companies list the continuous output in watts, and this number is probably what tipped me into the Magnum camp at the time I made my choice. However, in spite of the cost of the Color Control panel, I am jealous of that slick looking interface. Looking at the pictures online, it doesn't look nearly so nice as it does in reality. The Magnum ARC-50 remote does a lot in a small space and has extensive control capabilities for the all of the stuff in the Magnum eco system, doesn't look nearly as sexy! ::) Also, when I was choosing my charge controller, the Magnum PT-100 wasn't out yet so I went with the Midnite Solar Classic 150, which has been rock solid. That said, the higher voltage capability of the newer Magnum (200VDC plus battery voltage or 240VDC, which ever is lower) would have had me... If I was doing it all again, I might have gone with an all Victron system just for the slick system integration. Still, I am happy with the Magnum and think anybody who chose differently voted with their dollars and I enjoy hearing that things are working well regardless of brand. I have made enough choices in my life that didn't work out as advertised, and would not wish that experience on anybody. We all take understandable pride in our powers of discernment (a given as Foretravel owners ;D ), and I would certainly not want to make anybody feel less than pleased with their choices. Personally, I think that choices regarding coach power systems are one area where maximum discernment is called for and would encourage anyone looking at these to weigh as many factors as possible. One area where I was influenced was the form factor of the inverters. My chosen mounting location would have required me to shift my Joey bed aft about an inch (IIRC), and that would have caused other problems. The shallower depth at the bottom of the Magnum (when mounted vertically) allowed items sticking up above the rail in the forward driver's side of the Joey bed to clear (as long as I am careful when loading!). Other coaches would have had different constraints, but my chosen inverter location had too many advantages to ignore; Accessibility, shortest cable run, least impact on storage space, Magnum Mini-Panel co-location. I say this not to convince anyone that my choice should be their choice, but merely to assert that my choices were made after due consideration... that said, I am still jealous of the Victron control panel :-[ Don
3000 VA, 2400 watts continuous, 6000 watts peak. 93% efficiency. See Converting VA to Watts (https://baymarinesupply.com/blog/converting-va-to-watts/)
Magnum 2812 is 2800 watts continuous, 3900 max, 88% efficient, 3 yr warranty, 120 amp 4 step charger. Several hundred $ more than the Victron.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Caflashbob on October 27, 2017, 11:39:11 am
Good discussion on the boat thread.
if you want it for boosting capabilities the magnum is useless on a boat. because nobody runs the whole boat through an inverter. the panel is always split. and since it only has the one output it will never be able to measure the non inverter loads to compensate for it. and the boost function will never work. the regular magnum's are great and I install lots.
one terrible thing about the victrons is you can't turn the charger off and still have power on the boat. stupid design. it should have 2 switches like the magnum. one for inverter and one for charger.
Can find no equalize setting mentioned on the victron. No problem if you run gels or normal AGMS.
Lifeline reccomends equalization required. Magnum has two AGM settings profiles built in. One for normal AGM'S the second profile for lifelines.
The lifeline's 250 amp hour rating would seem to make their use a no brainer. And their warranty requires you equalize them as far as I know.
Magnums website for the sw 2812 mentions made in the USA. Which was important to me. No idea on the hybrid 3012.
Magnum is 60 amps pass through, 2,800 Watts, has two inputs, charges from 120 or 240 volts, has an equalizer cycle and both charging curves for the different AGM batteries.
Victron shows 13.2 storage volts. Wonder what their thoughts were? Magnum uses 13.6
I tested my magnum and my alternator on a drive to Las Vegas shortly after installation of the unit and having Lewco rebuild the leece-Neville 160 amp alternator.
I put in a need to bake dish in the convection microwave and using the oven set for 350 I baked the dish for 2 hours without the gen on.
Voltage jumped around as the ovens heating element cycled but everything worked fine.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Caflashbob on October 27, 2017, 11:57:33 am
Magnum 2812 and 3012 are made in Minnesota according to their tech department at 425-353-8833.
Some of their accessories and C line small inverters are made in China.
They also mentioned UL approval was difficult for some non USA equipment.
I vaguely remember possible insurance issues for non UL equipment in some uses.
Magnum is UL approved.
Victron is EN safety standard compliant on their website
Not UL
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Tim Fiedler on October 27, 2017, 11:59:14 am
+1 and AMEN -
whatI was trying to say, only better stated - you pay your money and make your choices. Unfortunately, it is easy to get overwhelmed in the "discernment" process.
I do like the color monitor- it is very informative and no interpretive skills needed.
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz)
TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) 630 240-9139 Gen-Pro
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on October 27, 2017, 12:12:04 pm
Seems all the smart kids are in love with the Victron control panel. Sadly, I've never seen one (in person) so I can't comment. :(
I'm surprised that Victron doesn't offer a APP that would allow remote wireless viewing of the control panel. That way, even when the owner was away from the coach, they could admire the control panel display 24/7 using their smart phone/device. Seems like a no-brainer to me! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 27, 2017, 12:18:23 pm
Only bluetooth and no nice display, but still remote viewing up to 33 ft. Victron VE Direct bluetooth dongle - view your MPPT solar charge controller... (http://shop.pkys.com/Victron-VEDirect-Bluetooth-Smart-dongle_p_3796.html)
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: John Morales on October 27, 2017, 01:55:18 pm
Chuck, It looks like the Victron MultiPlus has LAN connections. John M.
MultiPlus - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-12v-24v-48v-800va-3kva)
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on October 27, 2017, 02:39:08 pm
Thanks for the link, John. Although my comment was facetious, that looks like exactly what I was talking about. Just goes to show, no matter what I dream up, somebody else has already implemented the idea. Technology moves too fast for me these days...my old brain can't keep up. :help:
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 27, 2017, 03:43:33 pm
Pick what ever you want. Your choice is yours alone. It is not up to anyone here to talk down to anyone's choice when it is not what they choose. If you don't know aomething it is up to you to learn. Making false claims because of misinformation helps no one. There are many good choices out there.
My Victron Multiplus, solar controller, both battery monitors and my Victron Phoenix inverter are all connected to my Color Control GX which is connected to my coach network, coach computers and to the internet through which I can see everything in real time on mobile devices or laptop or coach computers or historical data and download all of it into a spreadsheet or functional database. With the bluetooth dongle and the downloadable app you can see and control what you want on your mobile device in BT range.
The Victron multiplus has a smaller "wall print" than the replaced Xantrex which made it much easier to wire. It is thicker by a cpuple inches but that forced me to rethink the joey bed arrangement of stuff. The end result was a much more efficient use of space and ease of access.
My Victron choices meet my needs for performance, reliability, integration and price. Your needs may be (are likely) different. Choose wisely.
I am sorry this thread has devolved into a whose inverter is best based on a fair amount of misinformation and personal bias. Certainly not useful to the original question.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Caflashbob on October 27, 2017, 04:52:12 pm
What exact misinformation is in this thread? I researched this three years ago heavily.
At the same time my local rv repair dealer and my buddy both had removed inverter/Charger units I was recycling for them with the inverter man.
A dozen units brought in for evaluation and either repair or purchase by them over five years allowed me to see what they were fixing and ask questions.
Lack of parts caused a large percentage of removed units to be scrap.
Magnum told me today that they offer circuit board repairs through them. Three boards in their machine.
No bias at all. If I were a remote off grid home owner I had the right equipment in my hands with 2 4024 magnum inverters that tested perfect in front of me. Or dual outback's mounted in a outback metal casing with 200 amps of circuit breakers that was new.
Inquired at visione about the lower battery slide out rack from their in stock 97 U320 and figured out that I could replace the existing single battery top rack with the removed 97 bottom rack if I moved the wiring and fuze link to the other side of the wall into the main bay where the heart freedom 25 was mounted.
But in our actual use the three new 8g8d my gels had enough capacity for our uses as we are not an all electric coach and we replaced our lighting to leds including the fluorescents in the ceiling.
My inverter guy showed me most brands insides and most have fairly small internal contactors for transferring power which is probably why foretravel used external ATS systems.
We disconnected one of ours and used the hearts internal relay instead.
Less clunking, less humming.
So I could have installed a single or dual 4024 system with a transformer to reduce to 12 volt.
Or a dual or single outback setup I had in my hands and bought a solar controller.
My x foretravel tech had a new 2012 magnum with auto gen start and the remote panel for $1,300 installed.
But I wanted the 125 amp charging versus the 100 from the 2012.
The Victron was not as integrated 3 years ago. Plus no info on internal construction and parts availability.
Only two ,for sure, that were known reliable and parts available for and two local repair and installers available that I knew personally were the very good quality outback and the magnums.
So versus me being the tester I sold the inverters to the inverter man and gave my buddies their 50% back of the money generated and had my guru install the magnum, battery temp sensor, remote panel without gen start as my gen does not support remote glow plug starting and a "fuel" gauge which duplicates some of the remote panels function.
At that time the Victron did and does not have the specific settings for a lifeline set of agms if I wanted them in the future and no way to equalize the same batteries if they should require that in the future.
At that time the Victron did not have the now available "learning" mode that some of their units now offer whereas the magnum already had this technology.
The difference between the magnums iron core transformer being better able to overcome voltage spikes versus a toroidal transformer is beyond my pay grade but may account for the 13 pound heavier weight of the 2812.
It came down to known long term repair and parts availability and a higher internal transfer capacity, more watts available, a learning panel, a dual AGM mode, ability to charge from either 120 or 240 volts on a 120 volt unit, quieter operation, ability to turn the charger off and still have power as the boat guy mentioned and being made in the USA was important parts of this.
Had not heard about the non UL stuff. A plug in device being non UL is not a big deal but an installed wired in non disconnect able major electrical device may well be.
I think I read in my coach insurance policy that all electrical stuff was required to be UL or NRTL approved.
If a failure occurred and a non UL system was the cause and found I would bet heavily that the insurance would not pay.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: rbark on October 27, 2017, 05:25:41 pm
Have been reading this topic with much interest. I've one question on the Victron that I haven't been able to fine in their documents. Can you tie in your existing gen auto start to the Victron inverters?
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 27, 2017, 07:53:48 pm
Your existing gen autostart connects to the batteries and based on what settings it has starts the gen at some voltage level and off at some higher voltage.
The Victron MultiPlus is equipped with a multi-functional relay that by default is programmed as an alarm relay. The relay can be programmed for all kinds of other applications however, for example to start a generator (VEConfigure software needed).
You can set several different conditions when to start the generator, several when to stop the generator, minimum run times and more. See page 7 in the document above for an example.
Turning the charger off. Yes you can.
Second Battery The MultiPlus has a connection for charging a starter battery.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: rbark on October 27, 2017, 07:55:59 pm
I like that ! Thanks Roger.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Michelle on October 27, 2017, 08:21:08 pm
The Victron MultiPlus is equipped with a multi-functional relay that by default is programmed as an alarm relay. The relay can be programmed for all kinds of other applications however, for example to start a generator (VEConfigure software needed).
IOW, you can use this relay and eliminate the original auto gen start from the equation. This gives you much better control (and understanding) about the conditions under which the generator starts.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 27, 2017, 08:22:50 pm
Thanks for adding that Michelle. It is a really nice feature that you can customize as your needs dictate.
Now all we have to do is help John with the original issue. Someone can start another thread if they want to carry on the inverter vs inverter line.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 27, 2017, 08:48:53 pm
The Victron 800VA pure sine wave inverter is a smaller inverter well suited for a refrigerator. In Eco mode (standby) it uses 1 watt. When in ECO mode, the inverter will switch to standby when the load decreases below a preset value (min load: 15W). Once in standby the inverter will switch on for a short period (adjustable, default: every 2.5 seconds). If the load exceeds a preset level, the inverter will remain on.
I have not tried mine in Eco mode, I am pretty sure my Samsung uses 15 watts or more even at its lowest use level. Average is about 65 watts, running is about 140 watts without the ice maker. Start up loads are higher.
My Victron 3000/12 uses about 20 watts running, 15 watts in AES mode and 8 watts in search mode. 6000 watt peak output. And it will invert to supplement low voltage or higher load demands when connected to a landline. They can charge your start battery and be configured to autostart your generator as well. Five year warranty and they are less than $1300 now.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: George and Steph on October 27, 2017, 09:01:53 pm
Chuck, this is a screenshot one from my iPhone of the Victron CCGX data. Can monitor from anywhere if you use the WiFi chip.
How things change in a few months huh Tim. I am sure you remember the $8,000 Solar thread.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Tim Fiedler on October 27, 2017, 09:18:37 pm
Yeah. 12 coach bucks later....
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Old phart phred on October 27, 2017, 09:32:42 pm
That is pretty impressive trending data. How much solar have you got? Does the victron eleminate the ATS? From what I've seen it can take care of voltage sags from genset or shore power. Most times I pretty leary of manf. claims as it seems most have a dozen ducks in front of them, and if one is out of place, claimed feature doesn't work.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Tim Fiedler on October 27, 2017, 09:51:01 pm
Victron can eliminate ATS and pass through 50 amps. Sadly I could not take advantage of that without significant additional wiring expense. Per AM Solar, The ProSine 2.5 could not pass through 50 amps. So FT put in a second transfer switch to switch the inverter in and out of circuit, and wired 50 amp direct to panel from Dhore power/generator output Since inverter panel was 2.5 max, the AC wire from ProSine was sized for the output of the ProSine 2500 watts, (maybe it was sized for 30 amps, I can't recall exactly the gauge of the wire) not 50 amps So significant wire pulls are required from the bed area to the inverter position in the basement back to the bed. Or moving the inverter location with changes to the 12 VDC cabling In the end, looking at 8 plus labor hours plus materials to go that route. So I opted to stay with two transfer switches and OEM wiring Yes, smart readers might ask replacing 2500 watts with 3000 watts will that overload the OEM AC wire. Not sure, but don't intend to use high load devices any differently, so don't expect to exceed 2500 watts. Usually start generator for washer/dryer, induction top, microwave, coffee maker or hair blow dryer if not on shore power Anyway, that is how my feeble mind remembers the conversation at AM Solar
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: George and Steph on October 27, 2017, 09:52:20 pm
My 270 came with one ATS and the Multi acts as the second. (Unfortunately the schematic shows two and I looked everywhere for it) I have 800 for house and 100 for chassis. The trend lines are for 400 lithium.
I used their, AMS, kits. Great customer support during install. I paid slightly more for some components but well worth it to not be stuck. Also went all Victron to avoid conflicts. Also check with Alan at Bay Marine.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Tim Fiedler on October 27, 2017, 10:02:15 pm
Mine are stacked on on top of the other on the right side of the bed electronics bay
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 27, 2017, 10:04:38 pm
Victron can eliminate ATS and pass through 50 amps. Sadly I could not take advantage of that without significant additional wiring expense. Per AM Solar, The ProSine 2.5 could not pass through 50 amps. So FT put in a second transfer switch to switch the inverter in and out of circuit, and wired 50 amp direct to panel from Dhore power/generator output Since inverter panel was 2.5 max, the AC wire from ProSine was sized for the output of the ProSine 2500 watts, (maybe it was sized for 30 amps, I can't recall exactly the gauge of the wire) not 50 amps So significant wire pulls are required from the bed area to the inverter position in the basement back to the bed. Or moving the inverter location with changes to the 12 VDC cabling In the end, looking at 8 plus labor hours plus materials to go that route. So I opted to stay with two transfer switches and OEM wiring Yes, smart readers might ask replacing 2500 watts with 3000 watts will that overload the OEM AC wire. Not sure, but don't intend to use high load devices any differently, so don't expect to exceed 2500 watts. Usually start generator for washer/dryer, induction top, microwave, coffee maker or hair blow dryer if not on shore power Anyway, that is how my feeble mind remembers the conversation at AM Solar
Good info Tim. Often wondered why FT put in a ATS around the inverter when the inverter would do it automatically. My 270 only had a 20 amp circuit to the inverter, [basicly for the charging side] so using inverter ats would have limited loads on shore power.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: AC7880 on October 27, 2017, 10:10:43 pm
The week of Nov 13 we will be doing Victron inverter, controller, and 1080 watts solar at AM Solar in Eugene Oregon. We will retain the 2 current ATS system to avoid additional wiring runs, and retain current gen auto start as we don't envision using gen auto start anyway.
We will also install 3 new Lifeline 8D AGMs at the same time. Current batteries still working fine (Deka 8D AGMs with 2013 date). I figure get batteries done now since they will already be in the battery compartment and they are heavy and buried in the middle of the coach.
On my previous Bluebird I self installed 300 watts of AM solar products and changed out the 31 series AGMs myself. As fulltimers, I just want to hire it out this time. We will move into a motel for 3-4 days to stay out of the way and reduce any need to pay labor to prep the coach for us each night to move the coach back out of the shop.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 27, 2017, 10:19:37 pm
If your wanted to use the "power assist" hybrid feature on the Victron, [say running a roof air on 15 amp shore power] it seems that you would have to wire the roof air into your inverter output breaker panel. Am I right in assuming that you would have to remove the FT ats around the inverter and use the inverter internal transfer switch?
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: RTG on October 27, 2017, 11:50:24 pm
For What It's Worth:
I have followed Technomadia's blog for the past couple of years, with regard to both internet and solar. I became sold on the value of lithium batteries. Yes, they are expensive, but like choosing how to invest, it all depends on your "investment horizon". If you live in an RV full time your choice may be different from someone who does not. If you plan to keep living that way for 20 years, likewise, your choice might be different from someone who does not. My operating assumption was to set this rig up for 20 years of full time use. Given that assumption, lithium became a serious contender. Yes, lithium batteries are much more expensive than lead acid batteries - up front. But they have their benefits. To begin with they can be expected to last a lot longer. They can also be discharged down to around 20% without damage, vs. lead acid which can drop to about 40%. What was in the coach before was a nominal 725 Ah of AGM batteries - which is actually good for about 50-60% of that (435 Ah). What is in the coach now is 600 Ah of lithium batteries, which is good for about 80% of that (480 Ah). Not much of an increase. But the re-charge speed is MUCH faster, the number of discharge cycles they can deliver is MUCH greater, they weigh a LOT less, and take up less space. And they can be expected to cost less per unit of power delivered over their lifetime, probably significantly less. So my thought was that making that purchase was an investment in energy and freedom for the next 20 years. For someone else, none of that may apply and for them it would appear foolish. To each his own. Some have told me "diesel is a lot cheaper." It is. In my world silence is golden.
When I had the Victron batteries installed (to go with the all-Victron system built around the MultiPlus) I had decided in advance to put everything in the old washer/dryer compartment. I chose to go with Victron batteries and to put them in this location based on this Technomadia post Technomadia - Lithium Update (http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/) which suggested that the lack of heat regulation and insufficient charge balance were the probable causes of his home-made lithium battery bank showing more wear than expected after 3 and a half years. Mine are in a mostly climate controlled space, and take advantage of Victron's tight integration to monitor and balance the batteries as well as possible. And it sure was nice this past summer when driveway surfing not to have to worry about running the air conditioner on just 15 Amp shore power! I'm sure it's not to everyone's taste, but when my intent is to cover ground while still working, I have been known to boondock during the day while working, and travel a few hours at a time after work, going without hookups for days at a time and running the generator for perhaps a couple of hours every few days if it gets cloudy or I decide to splurge on electricity.
I never worried about where the equipment was made. Maybe I'm seriously naive? But one thing I do know is that we all drive cars and use computers, cell phones, tablets, networking equipment, rely upon medical devices and equipment - all of which are either manufactured or contain components that are manufactured all over the world - China, India, Malaysia, Macao, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Brazil... But surely I must be missing *something*. Obviously I'm not "in the know" since I don't believe that technology manufactured "elsewhere" must be inferior. (What about cars manufactured in the US in the 70s and 80s?) I'll have to pause and reflect the next time I board a JetBlue Embraer Jet Designed And Manufactured In Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Embraer_E-Jets_operators) Opinions and speculation are all good. Problems arise when we confuse them with actual facts.
I don't know whose inverters are better. The answer will depend an awful lot on who you ask. I doubt very much the question will be answered with certainty - here or anywhere else. Check back in 20 years or so.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Tim on October 27, 2017, 11:51:36 pm
Just spent a week solar-only boondocking at Mammoth Cave National Park. The most sunny campsite we could select still had about 70% tree cover, but still enabled about 2500 watt-hours of charge per day with our 1920 watts of solar.
Observations:
1. The solar panels generated as much power on lightly clouded days as sunny days due to beneficial scattering of light and less shadows from trees. This was about 3000 watt hours per day. If there were heavy, dark clouds, I estimate the power would be cut in half. If there was several days of heavy clouds, the generator would have to be run. 2. Left the inverter and all essential AC systems running 24hrs per day, and all systems drew about 3000 watt hours per day, so it was a draw. This is about 33% of the usable battery power. 3. Left the inverter on non-power-saver mode because I hypothesize that the iPad chargers, which are switching regulators, may be damaged by the inverter's sense circuitry. 4. Unplugged or did not use the following vampires when not in use: TV, Microwave, Ice Maker (made ice before-boondocking and placed in bags in freezer), put Laptop in sleep mode, engine battery float charge, fans. 5. The following used electrical power from the 48Volt lithium pack, either directly from the pure sine inverter or from the 115VAC to 13.6VDC converter: 12VDC control circuitry for propane furnace (50's at night), fridge and water heater. Plugged in two laptops, TV, projector, charged two iPads and two phones, LED lights, water pump, 12Volt power supply, wifi hotspot. 6. The power to only run the essential house equipment (fridge, heater and hot water) was 100 watts, or 2400 watt hours per day.
Congrats Dan on your solar installation. More Power!!
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 28, 2017, 12:04:10 am
I have followed Technomadia's blog for the past couple of years, with regard to both internet and solar. I became sold on the value of lithium batteries. Yes, they are expensive, but like choosing how to invest, it all depends on your "investment horizon". If you live in an RV full time your choice may be different from someone who does not. If you plan to keep living that way for 20 years, likewise, your choice might be different from someone who does not. My operating assumption was to set this rig up for 20 years of full time use. Given that assumption, lithium became a serious contender. Yes, lithium batteries are much more expensive than lead acid batteries - up front. But they have their benefits. To begin with they can be expected to last a lot longer. They can also be discharged down to around 20% without damage, vs. lead acid which can drop to about 40%. What was in the coach before was a nominal 725 Ah of AGM batteries - which is actually good for about 50-60% of that (435 Ah). What is in the coach now is 600 Ah of lithium batteries, which is good for about 80% of that (480 Ah). Not much of an increase. But the re-charge speed is MUCH faster, the number of discharge cycles they can deliver is MUCH greater, they weigh a LOT less, and take up less space. And they can be expected to cost less per unit of power delivered over their lifetime, probably significantly less. So my thought was that making that purchase was an investment in energy and freedom for the next 20 years. For someone else, none of that may apply and for them it would appear foolish. To each his own. Some have told me "diesel is a lot cheaper." It is. In my world silence is golden.
When I had the Victron batteries installed (to go with the all-Victron system built around the MultiPlus) I had decided in advance to put everything in the old washer/dryer compartment. I chose to go with Victron batteries and to put them in this location based on this Technomadia post Technomadia - Lithium Update (http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/) which suggested that the lack of heat regulation and insufficient charge balance were the probable causes of his home-made lithium battery bank showing more wear than expected after 3 and a half years. Mine are in a mostly climate controlled space, and take advantage of Victron's tight integration to monitor and balance the batteries as well as possible. And it sure was nice this past summer when driveway surfing not to have to worry about running the air conditioner on just 15 Amp shore power! I'm sure it's not to everyone's taste, but when my intent is to cover ground while still working, I have been known to boondock during the day while working, and travel a few hours at a time after work, going without hookups for days at a time and running the generator for perhaps a couple of hours every few days if it gets cloudy or I decide to splurge on electricity.
I never worried about where the equipment was made. Maybe I'm seriously naive? But one thing I do know is that we all drive cars and use computers, cell phones, tablets, networking equipment, rely upon medical devices and equipment - all of which are either manufactured or contain components that are manufactured all over the world - China, India, Malaysia, Macao, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Brazil... But surely I must be missing *something*. Obviously I'm not "in the know" since I don't believe that technology manufactured "elsewhere" must be inferior. (What about cars manufactured in the US in the 70s and 80s?) I'll have to pause and reflect the next time I board a JetBlue Embraer Jet Designed And Manufactured In Brazil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Embraer_E-Jets_operators) Opinions and speculation are all good. Problems arise when we confuse them with actual facts.
I don't know whose inverters are better. The answer will depend an awful lot on who you ask. I doubt very much the question will be answered with certainty - here or anywhere else. Check back in 20 years or so.
I guess you wired your victron so it used pass through and used battery to assist when running ac on 15 amps shore power? Agree country of manufacture is not really a factor.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: RTG on October 28, 2017, 12:12:57 am
Mine are stacked on on top of the other on the right side of the bed electronics bay
When I replaced my intermittent ATS this Summer I discovered that there were two. I replaced both of them with a single manual TS (posted elsewhere). Now I never have to wonder what the d___ thing is up to, and I couldn't be happier. I never believed in switching things over under load anyway - and now I don't have to worry about losing power either. In the event I lose my 110 power source, either the Victron will take up the slack - if it's inverting, which it usually is, or if the Victron is in charge-only mode I don't worry because the things that matter to me are already connected to substantial UPSes. Now I just have to talk to Tim and figure out how to get the Generator auto-start to work again...
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: RTG on October 28, 2017, 12:22:33 am
I guess you wired your victron so it used pass through and used battery to assist when running ac on 15 amps shore power? Agree country of manufacture is not really a factor.
Yes - only one air conditioner gets power through the inverter while the other gets power from shore or generator only. Of course both will run when shore or generator power is available.
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: jcus on October 28, 2017, 10:09:42 am
Yes - only one air conditioner gets power through the inverter while the other gets power from shore or generator only. Of course both will run when shore or generator power is available.
Maybe, I am overthinking this, but if on 15 amp shore power and you lose sp, will inverter take up entire load of ac?
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on October 28, 2017, 10:28:13 am
Best prices on a Victron 3000VA multiplus as far as I can see are at Bay Marine. I got a discount for being a Forum member and buying a bunch of other stuff and paying by check, no sales tax and shipping was included. My net would have been close to $1300. And the support of Alan at Bay Marine is worth a lot to me.
Victron MultiPlus 12 Volt / 3000 VA / 120 Amp Pure Sine Wave Inverter/Charger (https://baymarinesupply.com/chargers-inverters/victron/victron-multiplus-12-volt-3000-va-120-amp-pure-sine-wave-inverter-charger.html)
Title: Re: Replacement options for Prosine, plus solar (split from Re: Prosine 2.5 Inverter Help)
Post by: Michelle on October 28, 2017, 12:12:04 pm
Now all we have to do is help John with the original issue. Someone can start another thread if they want to carry on the inverter vs inverter line.
I split these Victron vs. Magnum, etc., posts out of John's request (and retitled his topic so it indicates it's a Prosine question - hopefully that will keep that one on topic)