I'm going to ask the membership here to consider an observation and perhaps a consideration going forward
Many times over the years, when a member has posted asking for help on a system, as is one of the main reasons for this forum, there is invariably a response (or a few) that say
"Gee, I'm SO GLAD I don't have that on my coach!"
Slides
Tag axle
air leveling
AquaHot
Powered cord reel
hose reel
Splendide
vacuum toilet
Satellite dish
DEF
you get the picture.
How about when someone is asking for help that might be due to a service mishap, and responses say
"That's why I always do my own work"
Now, how about if you were the member dealing with the issue? How would you feel with this irrelevant and unhelpful response?
Do you think you'd be inclined to ask for help or mention a problem again?
Do you think you'd like to stay on a forum where folks tell you how lucky they are that they aren't you?
Do you think you'd stay on a forum where folks make you feel inferior for not doing your own work?
Do you think you'd go away with the impression that the forum was only for older, less complicated coaches (as has been lamented to us many times)?
...
Great post Michelle. I know that some of these or aspects of this have applied at various times. It is easy to forget we were once new to this, for most of us anyway. But, and not to argue the point, I wager that the percentage of these comments that might welcome a "do over" is high and the percentage of those that just do not care or think in these terms is very low.
Thanks. Great reminders!
John,
Appreciate your comment, but kindly let me clarify. This is not new and has absolutely nothing to do with any "current events/situation in the world".
This has been going on since the beginning of the forum. There are members who, over the years, have thoroughly discouraged a number of really good folks with these sorts of posts (based on the PMs I get by those leaving, if they chose to let me know).
It is ALL OF OUR LOSS that we have lost these members and that there are Foretravel owners who WILL NOT JOIN this forum because of what they hear from those former members.
I agree 100%
When someone asks for help with a widget, they don't want to hear from anyone who doesn't like widgets, they what to hear with widget owners (happy or unhappy) and want to hear about widget care and feeding.
On the other hand, when someone is asking for buying advice, I will gladly tell what I like (very much) and what i don't like (very little) about my own coach.
By the way I have a single slide, no tag, 38', U295 without aquahot but with air leveling, and it meets my needs perfectly.
What I fear is the worst offenders will read this and say to themselves "this isn't me they could possibly be talking about" and continue as per norm.
Thanks to the moderating staff keeping things between the ditches.
Pamela & Mike
I am new-er one of my big gripes (but I am not leaving unless I am asked) when a question is asked
Search function works or try the search bar or whatever they want to put there.
Just as easy to answer the question or find a starting link for them... We all know about the search function and how to use it.. sometime a topic to search isnt the correct topic for what is being asked or needed and the first thing they want to do is point out the search function.. well Duh!
I do not believe that Michelle is addressing bigotry, racism, etc. Or community. Or speaking your piece. Just simply trying to get members to post a relevant useful answer to a question or problem that has been presented. And from my years as a member that is not going to be something that is going to be accomplished easily.
Even more simple than that.
As I mentioned in the first post, "I'm so glad I don't have xyz" or "That's why I do my own work" or "You need "such and such" at home to do your own work" are responses that do absolutely nothing to encourage people who post asking for help, and have actually directly discouraged folks from posting questions or showing others their own work (or new members from even posting when they see how others are made to feel inferior).
Michelle,
You are so correct, I lurk here reading and have seen some goofy answers to straight forward questions. I have also seen some very negative responses to folks wondering if they should try and join this forum when posed on other forums. I do my best to encourage them to at least give it a try.
I like this forum, but wish there were more people with newer coaches. Say in the 09-12 year range. But they may come yet.
I promise, I will be good from now on! LOL
One thing I would like to add. When people ask for help, especially when you give them your opinion, along with others giving them their opinion, I wish people would complete what the outcome was.What the fix was.
I see time after time, questions for help, but never "well I finally got it resolved". "I lubed and turned that little knob and that took care of it".
I have searched in search for problem resolutions, but some of them just end, never a resolve. I am glad they got it fixed, but sure would be nice to know what fixed it.
Sorry that I elaborate on the issues I have with my coach when I post. I do that, so it is documented in detail how I fixed it,complete with part numbers for future FTer's issue's
Thanks For all you do, and thanks to all those that have PM'd me with help and part numbers.
Chris
This forum is exceptionally caring, I may bust a gut privately if someone were to ask about the 710 cap, but I think this forum well excedes the 80% approval rating overall and that is Nirvana,and very few if any forums or any other entity can operate above that level, just human nature. newbies are generally steered in the right direction by old timers who have been there done that. Misconceptions should be addressed as such,.
Remember criticism, may well be be somebody else going out of their way to help prevent you from making the same mistake. This old school tactic is known as learning, and mentoring. Smiley faces, high fives, sugar coating issues aside, Wisdom is king.
Many thanks for all your wisdom.
I debated all night about responding to Michelle's post, mainly because I felt it was a direct response to my comments after seeing the terribly rusted under frame.
Yes, I am glad we don't have that problem.
No, I am NOT glad the problem happened to someone else. I know I would, if I was anywhere near to his location, be there doing whatever I could to help.
I have never "crowed" about someone's misfortune.
The simple fact is that I was glad to see that the 1989 coach is being lovingly restored by someone that appreciates the majesty and quality of these coaches.
But, seeing as how I might have offended someone that doesn't know me or wants to think the worst, maybe I SHOULD JUST DISAPPEAR FROM THIS FORUM.
^.^d I Love This "Forum" ^.^d Simple Answer = "Keep It Positive"
If you need to relate one of your own bad experiences, to help others avoid the same outcome that's a learning experience. However, if there is a blatant error in a post, that needs to be addressed in a professional manor. ie; "using the wrong oil in a 6V92 Detroit"
Nighthawk, don't you dare bail on us. I think we know what you meant, and how you meant it to be taken. Text as a medium of communication has its limits, especially since in this case it is not anything like real time. Sometimes what one means when written is not what is understood when read. That doesn't mean leave, or clam up and say nothing, that gets us nowhere. You know things, your share them, and you help. Stick around. We all should probably reread what we write before we hit post though.
Thanks Michelle!
Nighthawk...
We have all made comments at some time or another that may have been taken the wrong way by others. No offense intended but the receiving party was belittled or offended anyway. I did not read your post and I have no idea if Michelle was including it in her reference or not. I am a relative newbie also with only a little over two years on this forum, I too, on a very few occasions, have received feedback from questions that would fall into the category that Michelle is referring too.
That being said....... we can't be too thin skinned either! If someone is discouraged or displeased with a post then by all means say something about it. A gentle reminder that a post is NOT helpful may encourage the poster to be a little more "supportive" in their next comment.
As far as you leaving the forum? NO...... you have been a regular and valuable contributor to this forum and I for one, and I am sure Michelle also, don't want you or anyone else to leave the forum. We all have knowledge and experiences that contribute to this forum, yes some more than others but we all gain knowledge and experience with time.
STAY PUT!
Justin
Thanks all.
I have always said I talk too much so I have to always tell the truth. Same when texting.
Am I glad the rust problem didn't occur on our coach? Of course!!
Am I glad it happened to someone else? OF COURSE NOT!!
Am I sad it happened? OF COURSE!!
But the bright side is that these Foretravel coaches are worth being rescued from the scrapyard.
Like James Holder at Tennessee RV says:" It makes sense to put your money in something with good "bones" rather than SOB that won't stay together long enough for you to enjoy it for any length of time."
Am I proud of our coach? Of course!! It's a Foretravel!!
Does it have shortcomings? Of course!!
Don't all coaches have an issue of one kind or another? Of course!!
Do we denigrate Foretravel coaches because or them? NO!!! Why? Because any and all of them are still better than anything else out there!!
.
Interpretation and persona/emotion is something that cannot be read ina text/post.
I never read that anyone is being asked to leave the site or to stop posting all together.. seriously? One extreme to the other? Take your emotions out of your reply, Take a step back and Think About It. What you post on here is read by several people and can be interpreted in several different ways.. Think about what you type as not to be negative even accidentally.
I read a lot on the Irv2 forum.. one of the topics kinda irks me... Mobley unit from ATT. Someone posts how wonderful it is and awesome of a deal and on and on.... Next guy posts its to good to be true and it must be a SHAM even though OP has it and is using it. The others complain that it could not work that way and it will be jerked out from under them before its usefull and its a plow to get email addresses..and so on. Then4 or 5 months later the item with the unlimited data dissapears and is taken down and not offered anymore... now the fun really begins on the topic (keep in mind that ATT said they were taking down the offer in July/ August.. or whenever).. OLD CRANKY guys get on the topic and start complaining how they were taken advantage of by ATT because they too the deal off the table..Really? They did what they said they were going to do... and now ATT is bad because these same Complainers didnt get in on the offer soon enough because they thought it was a SHAM.. it is an excellent example of a topic with NEGATIVE NANCY's in it..
Keep in mind what you type and how it can be interpreted is all she is saying... She didnt say leave or stop posting or take a vacation or a time out? I sound like I am talking to my 10 yr old again..
I have enjoyed everyone on this forum in one capacity or another.. even met a few (made some friends along the way).. that is what this site is about... THeir will be a time when we might meet and we should be able to walk out our coaches and shake a guys hand and not feel anymore awkward than our first time meeting.
Sorry for the long post.
All good posts,didn't read it right away,thought it was a complaint.
I know I have posted pictures of tools and equipment to work on my coach and how to do a repair at home. I didn't intend to offend anyone who doesn't do their own repairs, just give info to the ones that do. My reason for doing all my work is strictly financial, if I had the means I would love to give the work to someone else. I hope I never used the "that's why I do my own repair" phrase. I have got a few people to join the forum just to get general information as some posts will help them with their problem even though it isn't a FT.
Many of us are opinionated, and most of us love our Foretravels. We're in a definite minority because we prefer coaches without slides. I like to hear from those who have done a particular repair/upgrade themselves so that I can make some sort of guess as to whether I could do the same myself or whether I should pay someone who knows what they are doing. For example, in January we're going to pay OTM to replace all eight air bags. I know that some people here have done the job themselves, but I don't feel comfortable doing it myself. OTOH, I replaced most of the lights with LEDs myself, based on the information from those who have done the job themselves because I was confident that I could do so.
OK. here is my contribution FWIW.
Slides: Happy not to have them. Just two people no need for kids play space
Tag axle: Don't need so for us just more expense
Air leveling: Have it & love it
AquaHot: Hmm, Sounds good but more to go wrong.
Powered cord reel: Have very nice to have
Hose reel: See above
Splendide: Have it but have not needed it yet
Vacuum toilet: Unnecessary complication. Mine just drops into the tank below
Satellite dish: Got one but don't use it as we watch DVD player or stream
DEF: I am an environmentalist type but earlier DEF systems were horrible.
What works for some might not for others. Vive la différence, both between genders and coach owners.
As a professional fisherman I knew who had no electrics on his boat - even hand cranked the engine - said "If you ain't got it it can't go wrong".
Keith
Do believe this was exactly what Michelle was talking about. See first post in this thread.
Sorry but I was brought up on the "sticks and stones" theory.. you know, words can never hurt me, attitude. Today's world seems way to political correct for me and my kids always tell me I'm "old" school. But I like old school.
I for one think I want to hear it all, good, bad and ugly and let the moderators deal with it ( without overworking there dear souls of course). My father was a very, very, very outspoken individual and I had to learn to pick out the positive and jest let the negative go."..............
I agree, we are way too PC sometimes and any info is probably worth listening to. But if you cannot move your coach because the slide is struck out, do you really think it helps anything to have someone tell you "I am smarter than you because I did not buy a coach with a slide"?
As my father used to say "No advice is better than bad advice"
I think you missed the point of the thread? Read the first post again.
Interesting topic. When I joined the forum then bought my FT. It was my very first experience with an RV of any type. To say I was overwhelmed would be putting it lightly. Perhaps that was my fault for having waited till I was nearly 60 to buy my first RV & bought a diesel pusher. :facepalm:
First let me preface by saying that the advice and assistance I have received from this forum and it members has been wonderful and very helpful as well as greatly appreciated. So the following statement is "How I felt" based not on being told so in a direct manner, But indirectly based on how some folks reply in various posts.
From the very beginning I felt that there was/is a lack of understanding by some of what it's like to be a person that has little or even zero RV experience or who doesn't have a shop filled with huge amounts of tools & machinery.
It certainly doesn't help while dealing with a broken "thing" and then having someone post in the thread about how they totally rebuilt their coach while boondocking and it was 0F and knee deep in snow. Or they just pulled into their shop and used a CNC machine they just happened to have laying around to make a new widget.
On the other hand. A person posting about how they are glad they don't have that system doesn't bother me at all. It's not helpful, But it's also not a hinderance either.
Bottom line is it would be nice for folks to perhaps ask a newbie about their mechanical experience level and if they do have a place with the tools needed so they can easily work on their coach. Even if the newbie doesn't have a shop or the proper tools. Any advice on how to fix the broken widget is still helpful as it gives them info to evaluate the shop doing the fix and if the fix was done properly.
Bigdog, I was the same as you when I bought my first class A diesel a 93 GV ored and was not a member of this panel.
I fixed things when needed and if I did not know what to do I visited a Deisel truck shop and asked around etc. We did not have any other FT units around here nor did the local RV places know anything about this brand, so no help there.
Luckily I had the Oshkosh frame so it was more like a truck and all the other stuff is really on every other make of coach/RV so that was easy to figure out.
Moving on to the present coach was a big learning curve but luckily I had bought it from someone that made himself available for me to call/email with questions. That was a big bonus for sure.
So, I basically worked thru this leaning curve for a year before meeting Brett H at FT and he asked if we were members of this group and told me it may be worth signing up, which I did. I have had discussions with quite a few members when needed and it has helped a great deal to remedy those problems etc. I hope I have recipricated with any suggestions I have been asked for from others.
The one issue I do have is the one Bob and Sue just commented on and I agree to his wording. There seems to be a problem with some regarding hearing a negative side to things and that to me is being small minded. How can anything get discussed if all you want to hear is exactly what you want to hear?? There are 2 sides to every discussion and knowing the Negatives surely makes you a more informed person, and if you decide not to listen then that is your perogative.
I deleted my first posting because there is obviously a big problem for some people to look at things from both sides, and my words did not explain this correctly.
I have not been adding to this Forum much lately as I felt it was becoming more like a Glee Club where if something was said that may upset someone then the post was deleted or you got a smacking. I get about 2 to 3 emails every week from members so feel that I am trying to help. I have the contact info of the people I may need to talk to to offer up their comments should I need them and also to keep their friendships active. My comments will be kept to myself from today.
JohnH
John,take some time and rethink,I for one will miss your comments.
I don't think the problem is accepting negative and positive views of a particular coach or system. I think most sensible people want to hear the plus and minuses. I read all the good and all the bad about high end coaches before I bought my first one. You may not like slides and you can post why do will not like them. When you do that, it allows a prospective buyer to make an informed decision. This is a good thing. I think what Michelle is talking about is the attitude some take when others have a problem. If you have a problem, I like to think the forum is here to enlighten people and help them fix their problems, [whether they do it themselves or pay someone to do it]. I recently had a slide issue and several members stepped up and helped me out. The point is, I ALREADY HAVE A SLIDE I NEED TO FIX, and this is not the time for you to point out, that slides can cause problems and you would not have one.
Common sense to me.
... the Moderators job".
Michelle, first and formost, thank you VERY MUCH for your efforts, dedication and hard work to help keep this forum together.
As a newbie, perhaps I have a different vision, or perception, of whats going on in this forum. Being a member of other boards, I can tell you that the brotherhood demonstrated here is worlds above other forums - forums that are rife with personal and political insults, arguments between one faction or another. I don't visit that forum much anymore. I didn't make a big deal of it, I just slowly became less active.
But here, well here I feel a big difference. A feeling of people honestly attempting to help others. A feeling of people willing to put up with stupid questions from newcomers who don't use the search function as much as they should perhaps. A feeling of people who take your idea and build upon it, offering suggestions on how to make it better, more useful, simpler or less expensive.
For crying out loud, when I was brand new, and stranded on the side of Killington Mountain, I had people CALLING ME OFFERING HELP! Who the heck does that any more?
We do, dammit.
With my barrage of very newbie questions, I got perhaps one "Search is your Friend" response. I read it and moved on.
Do I post smart ass answers sometimes? Yes, yes I do. Not to be mean, but I'm a smart ass person. If I hurt ANYBODIES feelings, I truly and sincerely apologize. But, if you post smart ass answers, you gotta expect smart ass answers. I do and I have.
There's an old saying that you cant legislate morality. You cant make rules up to make people civil all the time - for reasons other people on this thread have mentioned.
I'll make you a deal, though. You come off too strong to me and I'll message you.
As long as you do the same for me.
John Haygarth. Well other than getting myself into trouble sometime back because of my penchant for debating about a not to be named here contentious subject. The forum has been very helpful.
If I have a snappy comment on a non-tech issue. I have learned to type out a post then NOT post it, Walk away and look at it later, Edit and then post it. It has kept me from getting into hot water again.
The number of unhelpful posts to me and what I have seen on others threads is a minor percentage of what actually takes place here. My main point was that sometimes folks just don't think or realize that not everyone is a mechanical whiz or doesn't own a well equipped shop dedicated to their FT when they post a response. And so the effect on a newbie is one of perhaps the newbie coming to think that FT owners are bit elitist. (and that might be to harsh a word) Even if it was not the intent of the person that replied to come across as such.
When I suffered my Aqua Hot failure. I did see the "I'm glad I don't have an Aqua Hot" remark. But it didn't bother me. Because I could have replied as to why I'm glad I don't have ductwork. However, I simply thought that and didn't post it as a rebuttal. :))
Yet all is fair when a newbie or otherwise asks for "opinions" about various aspects of FT equipment.
JohnH,
I am glad to be able to call you friend and Tys and I are fortunate to have gotten a chance to get to know you and Ruth a little. If not for this forum, we would never have gotten that privilege. Since I do know you, I have a better sense of where you are coming from when you post. I know how much you enjoy being of help and sharing your knowledge and experience. That said, for every post of yours which someone who doesn't know you from Adam could take some kind offense at, or they find lowers the signal to noise ratio of the information exchange of the forum, you have made ten posts which provide valuable insight or information and become a part of the knowledge base for which this forum is justly famous. But Foreforums, is not just a database for Foretravel owners, it is also a place for social interaction and a place to meet new friends. It has a personality which is generally greater than the sum of all of its parts. For me, that sum will be significantly diminished if you refrain form posting, so please reconsider...
Overall, this forum has the best signal to noise ratio of any internet entity of which I am familiar. I take Michell's post on this topic as simply a nudge to try and maintain that level of utility, and simply a reminder from which the forum as a whole can benefit. However, it is a difficult balancing act to try and keep the environment one that encourages the free flow of discussion that facilitates information exchange without taking the personality (or soul...) out of it. I appreciate the people who take on this task and think they do a commendable job of it, but I think that this forum belongs to all of us and hope that it survives for the long term, so I as single individual will attempt to not make the moderators' job any more difficult than it needs to be.
Peace out...
Don
I agree with what Don just posted. Except, when a member ask a question in the Technical Section, I think that personality, opinions, BFF, community, camaraderie, etc. should be left out of the response.
I can't think of a time that any of John's comments have been in any way out of line with the intent of this forum. I think anytime you have a strong opinion, you may be a target for others. I've even received a couple of barely coherent phone calls late at night that were later apologized for. Remembering back when the bulkhead issue was first posted about, many were in denial about the issue and wanted to sweep it all under the carpet as it could hurt the value of their coaches.
I can understand worrying about visiting certain places and I have always wanted to believe this was a result of media misinformation rather than racism. Since my grandmother was from a small town in the mountains behind Acapulco, I've been a bit sensitive to certain comments and have responded in what I thought was a non-confrontational manner.
I think anytime posts are censored other than removing certain offensive words, it can be a slippery slope. I would hate to think that "Lady Chatterley's Lover" could no longer be found on library shelves.
John's "Glee Club" comment was not out of line. While we all own excellent coaches, there are plenty more SOBs out there that do a fine job of providing an excellent RV experience for their owners. No need to be smug about ours.
Pierce
This forum is thankfully, incredibly well managed with a firm focus on our coaches.
It seems like some posters treat it more like a social media site like Facebook. IMO that is when the issues MichelIe mentioned in the first post seem to come up.
It always amazes me how generous member here are with their experience and time. Without this place I wouldn't have a FT and that would be unthinkable. :+)
Just my opinion.... ;D
I wanted to add, my post isn't directed at John or anyone in particular. John, i hope you stay....hate to lose your experience and knowledge here.
Well, just add this thread to a long line of other threads that have been hijacked.
I have been a member of many forums and boards over the years, and quite a few RV specific forums and boards.
This one is the best one thus far for balance, fairness, tone, board organization/software, and moderation, in my experiences and opinion.
Not everyone will like everything and or everyone on this board or any other venue out there for RVs. It's impossible to please everyone all the time. Egos and personalities will cause some conflict in everything we experience in life, not just on one board or on the internet.
Overall, I just want to say well done to the moderators and to all members. Thank you all for keeping the tone upbeat and the information flow and knowledge sharing outstanding. I salute ALL the members for what you have accomplished here.
Itg,agree with your post but sometimes an opinion is what they ask for.I for one ask for opinions all the time but usually use a PM.
I like what the late President Harry Truman would say: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen !! Have a great day ---- Fritz
In all humor there is a little truth. Remember that at the bottom of all sarcasm someone is the butt of the joke. I am put off by someone being inconsiderate. That being said, I'll take the little bad with the awe sum good this forum provides. Thank you to the moderator that has to put up with us and keep us on track. Thank you to some of the "weird" members (I consider myself "weird") please, please, continue to contribute, as this forum would not be as beneficial without your knowledge.
"I would hate to think that "Lady Chatterley's Lover""
What section would that he be in Pierce ??
I am so glad I dont have.... the thin skin that seems to prevail around here.
I do try to be nice to others, but occasionally will call someone out on something, and have been called out numerous times. If that upsets you so much that you need a moderator to calm you down, you may need a checkup from the neck up. :D
I enjoy learning about things here and several times have read about someone elses problems and ended up using that knowledge further down the line. For example, my propane solenoid failed in the middle of a winter trip, and I remembered reading about others who have removed it. ten minutes sitting in snow while removing the valve guts and reassembling it and I had heat again. love it! This has happened to me so many times. Its a great forum, but it seems like kindergarden playground sometimes. "Johnny took my ball! waaaaaah!" lol.
That's funny. One of the things I liked about Foreforums was that I did not need a heat shield and thick skin to read the post.
Moderator, Please "Lock" this thread, The "Horse" has been beat enough ! :'(
Agree with Gerry.
Agree and done!