Hey there,
in the last couple of days driving my coach I noticed a squeaking noise when rolling slow (engine idling). Appears to come from the front driver side wheel, but I'm not 100% sure, might also be passenger side.
I cannot hear it anymore when I speed up to say above 5mph.
My first chance to work on the coach again will be end of January, so got plenty of time to prepare...
I plan on taking the wheels off and to check the brakes, refurbish or eventually replace the caliper slide pins and of course regrease the whole brake while I'm at it. Pad linings still should be good.
The hub oil looks good, it has a solid green color and no signs of wear or leakage.
I really should have measured the hub temperatures, but somehow did not think of that when I drove the coach last time. Now it's in storage and I have no access to it while I'm working at sea. Anyway I'd like to order necessary spareparts before I return...
Does anyone have any advice for me on what to check additionally?
Cheers,
Matt
You'll need new hub oil,some brake cleaner,check the pins first you may not need new ones.The noise may be a rock or gravel
stuck somewhere.Never had my brakes apart but a few others will chime in soon for sure.
Pick up 4 bags of helper springs (2 springs per bag - one bag per brake assembly), for when you do the brakes. They assist the pads in retracting, and could help avoid squeaky or dragging brakes. Do a Google search for the best price on the kits when you are ready to buy.
Meritor Disc Brake Helper Springs (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/Air%20Brakes/meritor-disc-brake-helper-springs.html)
KIT15018 by MERITOR - AIR DISC BRAKE - SPRING KIT (https://www.finditparts.com/products/39506/arvin-meritor-kit15018)
We had that on the passenger's side and had a brake dragging. Cleaned and replaced all the pads and all is well.
Hey Matt, try touching your brake pedal and see if the noise goes away. Mine has done that for the last 30K miles pins are good,caliper lubed properly, helper Springs, good pads. You might also try taking a water hose with a sprayer and wash the dust out of the pads and rotors.
Noticed that ours was doing the same thing yesterday while stuck in a rolling parking lot on I95 in Ga.
I lightly applied the brakes while driving about 10 mph for a hundred yards or so.
The squeaking quit. I stopped at a couple of rest stops and checked hub and rotor temp with an infrared probe and all looked good.
Squeaking doesn't mean anything is bad or defective, and yes the helper springs should help with squeaky brakes.
Thinking of adding those myself.
Make sure you only use the prescribed grease in the calipers.
If it is when you first start off, not to worry. It is common for hot disc brake rotors to get surface rust over night or after sitting for a while in humid areas. when starting off slowly the pads will squeal as they rub the oxidation off. IF it is excessive, you have a brake pad worn through, something rubbing, or some type of problem
wantabe
AND the prescribed purge process after greasing. Said another way, just do it per the Meritor manual.
First thing I would check is the location of the DW and the cat! >:D :))
Already noted - thanks ;) I'm wondering how long those comparably tiny springs will hold, but one can't go wrong with investing 20USD per brake, so I'll install them. I was also worried at first that being that they're only installed on one side, they'd make the cylinder-side of the caliper push the pad on the rotor... but seems like the cylinder has its own return spring that'll provide enough clearance.
It'll go away if I brake hard, by just softly touching the brake pedal it gets louder. That's what actually makes me hope that it's just dirt or rusty slide pins...
Interesting idea, will keep that noted, but since it's been doing it for a couple of days already and since I did quite a lot of driving in those days I guess I applied he brakes often enough, especially when coming down from Yellowstone and Teton National Park to Salt Lake City...
I try to balance retarder use and normal brake use while driving, so it's not like I'd not be using the brakes...
Unfortunately it more seems to be the other way round, I couldn't always hear it when I started off, but almost always when I rolled towards my parking spot...
Absolutely, already went through reading it and am well prepared - also thanks to bbeane who told me some stories about how not to do it ;) Never got to touch them though, too many other things I had to do in the last 1.5 years that I own the coach...
Oh yea, my first look was of course directed towards the passenger seat when I noticed it... My GF didn't even hear it. But when we went across Hoover dam to the parking lot on the other side too many people turned their heads. I'm sure there're a couple of reasons for that, she came up with that they have never seen such a beautiful coach or that the group of Japanese guys wanted to take a picture of the crazy guy crossing the dam with his house... anyway I could spot a kid holding his ears when I passed and that made me feel bad O:) - so I definitely gotta do something about it.
Not un-usual to get a rock or grit on the pads, Some times you can clear that squeal by backing up with a light pressure on the brakes.
Have a great day ---- Fritz
The anti-squeal clips in my front brakes broke and the loose piece was causing a squeal by wearing a grove in the outer diameter of the disk. I removed the wheel to discover this and just removed the broken piece (pass side). I checked the driver side and it was broken also, so I removed the broken piece before it started to squeal. That was 30,000 miles ago, so apparently, they are not essential. Replacing them involves dismantling the brakes.
Hey guys! So I'm with the coach now and removed the driver side wheel. As Wyatt suspected, the anti-squeal clip is broken and seems to cause the squeal.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2FBrakeOverview.jpg&hash=379ff53a2a02985e751c745b04fca548" rel="cached" data-hash="379ff53a2a02985e751c745b04fca548" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/BrakeOverview.jpg)
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2FBrokenclip.jpg&hash=71f4e1d806ef19104a2c8df65c5359e0" rel="cached" data-hash="71f4e1d806ef19104a2c8df65c5359e0" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/Brokenclip.jpg)
I wonder if the fact that the anti squeal clip touches the rotor means that the linings are worn...?
Cheers,
Matt
Looks like the pad is good,can you get a new anti-squeal part in without taking the pads out?Looks like your pins may be rusted
or just look that way,if you pull them out get the return springs ,can research them on the forum.
I don't mean to highjack Matt's thread, but his photo of his front hub has raised a question. Looking at the copy of his photo (on the left, below) I have indicated with arrows what I think are supposed to be "locating lugs" that help position the front wheel? On both of my front hubs (2nd and 3rd photos) those lugs appear to have been broken off. ??? What is the story on this? Is this normal? I'll be very curious to hear from the more knowledgeable members...
Chuck,
You have "Budd" hubs and wheels or said another way stud centered wheels, Matt's coach has hub piloted/centered hubs and wheels. This is the difference in the age of the coaches. Your lug nuts should have tapers on the wheel side Matt's lug nuts will be flat based.
Mike
Thanks Mike,
I was wondering what the heck was going on. I guess they used the same basic hub casting for both applications, because I can definitely see where the lugs were "removed" from my hubs.
Yes, exactly, my lugs are flat.
So here's the progress from today:
Cleaned the whole brake and removed excess grease from all the grease points. Then I pried off the broken anti-squeal spring.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2FBrakeCleaned.jpg&hash=11b42d5c80da6f6f8346d384d34af714" rel="cached" data-hash="11b42d5c80da6f6f8346d384d34af714" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/BrakeCleaned.jpg)
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2FLowerSlidePin.jpg&hash=49e1e5015f17e9a7b004c4a91898a1c5" rel="cached" data-hash="49e1e5015f17e9a7b004c4a91898a1c5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/LowerSlidePin.jpg)
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2FUpperSlidePin.jpg&hash=689456b4830ed10086c12d1bf6aa4650" rel="cached" data-hash="689456b4830ed10086c12d1bf6aa4650" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/UpperSlidePin.jpg)
I'll regrease the joints and steering knuckles tomorrow, not yet sure if I should regrease the brake piston too... got to check if I hwave the proper grease first...
After removing the anti-squeal spring the brake pad is pretty loose and I can move it back and forth about half an inch, I hope that won't become a problem...
Keep you updated!
When you drive it the self adjusters should take the play out.
For most of us, stop with the greasing of the brakes. Re-greasing is only needed about every 100K miles. You are more likely to cause a problem if it is not done correctly.
I agree. Not only incorrect grease, but improper purge process after greasing can lead to sticking brakes.
Good job Matt, looking forward to seeing you guys soon
Cheers
Matt,you get an A+ for cleaning.
The improper grease can cost about $600 to correct :o
So, finished cleaning and polishing the rim today and decided on not greasing the brakes. The lining wear is at 15mm (well more than 1/2in), so I guess there's still more than enough grease inside the caliper.
Just for reference here the manual states that the linings should be checked at 1/4in and they should replaced at 1/8in. The lining wear is measured by the distance the slide pins stick out at the inside.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2FLiningWear.jpg&hash=5c3fe3c9ff457414bbe786e5cdc9ff0f" rel="cached" data-hash="5c3fe3c9ff457414bbe786e5cdc9ff0f" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/LiningWear.jpg)
Bad news is that I could not tighten one of the lug nuts... The whole stud ripped right out...
I can't imagine I overtightened it so I guess the nut on the back was already corroded...
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2Ftornlugstud.jpg&hash=08089000b21f2b6ec89187fdec950d44" rel="cached" data-hash="08089000b21f2b6ec89187fdec950d44" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/tornlugstud.jpg)
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2Ftornlugstud2.jpg&hash=ad80562312a4af46347bb21be5e38d23" rel="cached" data-hash="ad80562312a4af46347bb21be5e38d23" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/tornlugstud2.jpg)
Tried torquing it to 400 lb-ft... That's still below the stated 450-500lb-ft.
Anyone got an idea of where I could get a replacement lug stud and inside nut? I could not find anything in the manual on what torque the inside nut should be torqued...?
cheers,
Matt
Matt,
That stud and nut can be gotten from most any truck shop. I don't have the part number or torque spec off the top of my head but I will walk up to the shop after daylight and look it up and post later if someone don't beat me to it.
After looking at you pic. you have plenty of pad left those are near new. When the slide pin gets down to 1/4" I would start to shop around for a set of shoes, depending on your driving habits this may be 80-90k or more away.
Mike
May just be the picture, but looks like the studs are oiled.
Torque specs are for DRY. Lubed, torque will be well lower than the 450-500 lb-ft.
Matt,
I just checked at the shop in my Euclid book and I don't show that stud. I guess its time to get a new parts book. The box of studs that I have on the shelf are for Budd wheels so that isn't any help either. Sorry that I can't help more right now. As a side note: with these on a hub that has disc brakes look for a shop that does fire truck brakes as they will have the studs on the shelf.
Mike
This is not including paying the first guy to do it wrong.
I lube my Budd studs and torque to 350#-400#
So progress from today:
-> Unfortunately had no luck at all with the lug studs, contacted a few places, but got negative or no replies.
-> Pulled the wheel off the passenger side and cleaned and checked the brake. Found the very same issue - the squeal clip of the outer brake pad was broken. In this case the broken part was still laying in the caliper, grinding inbetween the caliper and the rotor.
I'm starting to think that this is a design flaw. The way the pads and the rotors are positioned, the anti-squal-clips will definitely touch the rotor as the pad wears and I believe that must be the reason why they break in this place.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffrbrd.com%2Fshare%2Fpassengersidebrokenclip.jpg&hash=aaf4da8c5cb98aa595299fe18afb4fb3" rel="cached" data-hash="aaf4da8c5cb98aa595299fe18afb4fb3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://frbrd.com/share/passengersidebrokenclip.jpg)
-> Cleaned the whole thing
->checked the brake parts and lining wear, it's the same as the drivers side
-> replaced the shocks (figured it's really easier with the tire off than when it's on)
-> Put the wheel back and (yay), could tighten all bolts to 380ft-lbs. (slightly lubricated the threads with marine grease)
So... tomorrow the big hunt for the wheel stud continues...
I'll keep you updated,
Matt
Regarding the torque specifications of the Alcoa wheels used on our coaches, it is important to note the differing specs and procedures for the hub piloted vs. the stud piloted wheels. For the Alcoa Hub Piloted wheels with the two-piece flange nut, as used on our 1999 model year, the instructions I have show the 450-500 ft. lbs. spec with the studs lubed. The specs for the stud piloted wheels are given as a dry setting. That said, I lightly oiled the studs, the mounting flanges, and the mounting surface on the wheels as per instructions and torqued the wheels to 475 ft. lbs. The 450-500 ft. lbs. spec is stamped right on the wheel lugs.
Don
No reason for the inner nut to be much different than the outer nut for torque . Same studd doing the same job. Blue locktite will decrease the corrosion .
At least in his photo of the stud (above) it appears the inner and outer threads are different sizes.
Right . They look like one size smaller. Find the size, look up the general torque value chart. Should still be a little over 250# with locktikie . IMHO. 350 may be too much .
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/bolts/US-Recommended-Torque.aspx
yes, checked the torques as well. The inner thread is a 3/4-16. The outer thread is a M22x1.5.
Max torque for 3/4-16 bolts dry is 420 FT LBS according to this:
http://americanboltcorp.com/tech/techtorque.pdf
So, that's below the 450-500FT LBS stated on the lug nuts. I can imagine that there is some axle manual out there that actually limits the max torque for the wheel studs to 420... But the M22x1.5 can theoretically be torqued to 500, hence the imprint on the lug nuts...
So that might really be a thing to look out for. I torqued mine on the passenger side to 350FT Lbs now (lubed). Will keep a close eye on them, but really cannot imagine them coming loose - fingers crossed...
By the way before I took off the passenger side wheel I tried to figure out the torque that was needed to loosen the lugs... the neede torque was all over the place, from 280 to 450ft lbs... sounds like an airgun to me...
cheers,
Matt
Matt, I removed the broken anti-squeal pieces from both front brakes several years ago and have not noticed and ill effects after circa 25,000 miles.
Also, when I install a wheel (or a tire shop does), I hand torque the nuts and leave the nut covers off. I re-torque the nuts after driving a few miles and find that a couple will tighten a little. This process is included in the Alcoa manual.
I have marked the position off nuts after being tightened with an air wrench, then loosened and retightened by hand with a torque wrench. Comparing the position of nuts hand tightened to the position of the nuts air wrench tightened convinced me to never let anyone tightened wheel nuts with an air wrench.
Wyatt is 100% correct. Retorquing with the aluminum wheels IS part of the procedure.
This is something to watch for at Herman Power in Nacogdoches. Several years ago, they installed new tires for us. They used only an impact wrench. I asked what torque they applied and the tech(s) told me that just turn the wrench up as high as it will go. Since then, I insist on manual torquing. Had my tires off at MOT a few months back so they could replace all of the slide pins and they did hand torque at the proper torque.
jor
Yes Wyatt, and on small rotors (cars/PU trucks),impacts, and non torquing (un-even tightening) warps them, which will cause shake when stopping.
Last time I bought tires I went to a large truck tire retailer in the Chicago area, experts you would think.
After the job was taking way too long the service manager and I went out to see what the hang-up was.
Apparently the "tech" was unable to remove the left side rear tires, he hadn't got past this in over 1 hour of effort. He claimed the lug nuts were corroded on and would not come off. He had stripped several and broken the studs on the rest. A "tech" was trying to remove a stripped lug nut with a vice grip!
I saw the service manager walk over to the 2 "techs" and softly say, " you know those are a left handed thread, RIGHT!" He then realized that I over heard this comment.
The shop was now closed but he kept a more experienced tech to get the wheel off. He had him cut the wheel off with a torch.
They replaced the wheel at no charge.
I returned the next day and asked if they had a problem with the other wheels, they did not.
They said they could not replace the broken studs, this took a 50mile drive to a shop I felt confident to do that job ( I had enough studs to make this trip). They did have some difficulty finding the right replacement studs.
Keep this in mind, some of the older coaches have a left hand thread on the drivers side! KEEP a eye on anyone that approaches to do tire work!
Lon,next time try TM tire on Midilothian Turnpike in Crestwood,708-597-3078,got my tires there,they knew about the left hand thread.
I will put that in my notes, thanks!
My HORRIBLE experience was at Bauer Built Tire & Service in Romeoville IL. NEVER AGAIN!
the stripped stud in the picture goes through the hub and holds the rotor on correct? Was the nut backed way out to allow the stud to spin? if the stud was spinning in the hole you may have trouble with the new stud as well because of the splines would have been spinning in the hole they press fit into. likely the stud will be special order as it will be longer on the back side to hold the rotor on. Your wheel in the picture is hub piloted you wont have any left hand thread however stud piloted wheels will have left hand thread on one side and usually the end of the outer stud is stamped on the end.
So, I learned a few things today.
1.) The anti-squeal clips are supposed to slide along the outer side of the rotor as the pad wears. This should help the pad stay in place instead of vibrating around. The problem is that due to the lining thickness the clips have no function at all at first and only should start working when the pad wears down. However in some cases the clips never get to touch the side of the rotor, instead they touch the surface and break immediately due to the pressure.
2.) The wheel studs are really hard to get out here, however everyone says that it should be safe to drive the coach with just 9 of the 10 nuts tightened.
3.) The only matching wheel stud number is Meritor 09002073. This seems to be the only correct stud. In the internet this number sometimes cross references to Euclid E-11724. However the Euclid part is almost an inch longer and the thread on the back is 3/4-22, not the original 3/4-16 (that's according to an Euclid catalog the parts guy had). One of the several parts people I talked to today said that he might be able to get it, he'll get back to me tomorrow.
4.) The local hardware store has a 3/4-16 thread tool and also grade-8 nuts. I figured that I could use two of those nuts and rethread the thread on the stud and at least install it again. Originally there's a 1/8" thick washer on the back of the rotor. This means that I still have 1/8" of good thread remaining. If I'd install it rethreaded and without the washer, there's a chance it'll hold the torque. That's the way I'll go in case I get a negative feedback from the partsguy tomorrow...
No, the stud did not spin, but pulled straight out. The nut in the back was torn as well as the thread on the stud (there's really no remaining thread inside, it more looks like a hexagonal piece of steel with a hole in the middle than a nut. Means that the serrated part inside the rotor is hopefully still good.
So long,
Matt
Findit truck parts has it in a 4 pack for under $40.00
Yea, if nothing else helps I'll order it here, they ask 19.90USD for standard ground shipping (est 5 days delivery time)....
So update from yesterday:
-> lubricated kingpins and steering components.
-> lubed steeringpump and found one zerk missing, obviously ripped right off at the thread (wtf!?)
-> got feedback from truckshop that they have a hard time getting the stud as well
-> ordered the wheel studs and locknuts from finditparts.
For reference here're the numbers:
Wheelstud: MERITOR 09-002073 - STUD-SHLDR SERR
Locknut (to mount it on the rotor): MERITOR NL112-1 - LOCKNUT
Since I cannot wait another week for the parts to arrive, I'll buy a rethreading kit today and try and temporarily mount the old stud back, so it'll look better and will at least give me some additional safety.
Since I cannot wait another week for the parts to arrive, I'll buy a rethreading kit today and try and temporarily mount the old stud back, so it'll look better and will at least give me some additional safety
wouldn't worry about it. Put the wheel on with the other 9 and wait for your new stud. I wouldn't want to risk the chance of the serrations wearing anymore than they are already. No reason to spend money on a thread die you will never need again. If the new one does not press in tight our next step is a new hub. Torque to 450-500 with torque wrench. The big air guns are probably what started all this in the first place. These tire guys seem to think lug nuts need to be at 1200 ft lbs!
So update from the last days:
I did purchase a 10USD die and rethreaded the stud, thought I'd give it a try. The final thread did look good, yo I put it back in and used double nuts on the backside. It was good for about 200ftlbs, but when I tried to tighten it further I began to pull it back out of the hub again. So I'll leave it as it is now and go driving, luckily the other lugnuts could be tightened to about 380ftlbs. One more sticks out a little further than the others, so my guess is that it'll break next. I probably won't have enough time in the next weeks to work much on the coach, so it'll have to hold up the way it is now.
Will go for a testdrive tomorrow, hopefully the brakes will work as expected now!!
Thanks for all your support,
Matt
Hurry, we are waiting to see you guys
Hey Matt,we will be in Yuma tomorrow out on the State trust land on the east end of the foothills. Give me a shout Linda and I would like to see you. We ar going to try to find Gracerace as well.
It'll probably take us another week to come down to Yuma, about to hit Grand Canyon first, still waiting for some orders to arrive up here in Kingman!
And here's the bad news from finditparts.com:
Hey Bruce, Chris and Tammy (gracerace) I'll bring them up in our Jeep when they get here.They don't have a toad.They are going to park in front of our lot, unless they decide to dry camp. I haven't see your coach. We are at the top 52 nd dr. Dennis and Tammy are 5 lots down.We are around most the time. 3-4 other FT flat noses around the hood
I'll venture out and look for you.We stayed up there a night when got here. Just got our permit to go there today. There is a Jeep club every wed. at 8 or 9 am at the south end of Foothills. Not going this week,but the next 2. They are not hard core. But you need your permit.
Cheers
I change all of the studs when 2 wont pull torque . I hate crap falling off.
Give these people a try, they have a phone number.
09002073 Rockwell Stud-Shldr Serr brake parts (https://www.pgttruckparts.com/09002073-Rockwell-Stud-Shldr-Serr-brake-parts-p/2643-09002073.htm)