Started the coach engine , brought it up to ride height . Let it sit at fast idle to bring up the air pressure . Turned it off after checking tire pressure on the glass dash . Felt good and was sitting at my work bench and after a few minutes big boom . Scared me some , first thoughts were Viet Nam---Hmm. The tag bag burst on the passenger side . This is a first for me , never changed a bag before , but will change this one . Got to , can't go down the road like it is. So , will have one set from NAC and figure out how to do it and in fact do it . Got time to get it done 22 days before we pull the anchor . Very unexpected but like they say ship happens . :o :o :o Brad Metzger
Hmmm. 7 years, relatively young nag Brad!
I would check the other one very close, probably need to change them both. On our 03 both of the large tag axle bags had severe cracking at the rear bottoms of the bags, so I replaced them both.
Brad,
Please let us know the root cause of the failure. That is kind of "young" for an air bag to fail.
Coming down a logging road in Colorado I happened upon the two guys I worked for. They were sitting on the side of the road looking up under their old Western Star logging truck. I climbed under to see if they needed anything, and Silas told me the transmission had thrown craps on them. He said they were looking at repairing the tranny and I asked "right here?".
Silas looked at me like I was an idiot and said "Well, yeah, we ain't never figured out how to get them to break down while they're in the shop">
Guess you got that figured out though, huh Brad?
Good luck on your repair, and I'm glad you're not on the side of a logging road doing it!
Len
Wow,that is a first for me too. I wonder why and I would probably change both out.
That young, something caused it, wasn't old age.
The air pressure was showing 122 pounds when I turned the engine off . The bag looks like it was loaded with explosives . It is shredded all over it's self . Looks like it split completely around the whole bag . Definitely surprised me . I inspected all the other bags and no cracking on any of them . They all look new to me ,just a little dusty . This bag location is located where the sun can not get to it . Maybe a defective bag . I will save it for anyone that would like to see it . Brad Metzger
Maybe the result of a stray bullet fired by one of them poachers you got skulking around your property. 8)
Brad was this the lift bag or the regular bag? Looks like the regular bags use the same hcv's as the main axle. but the airbag that lifts the tag is on a 100 psi air regulator. If it was a lifting bag, would check that regulator first.
I'm going to make a post with my experiences replacing air bags(!) but I will say if you have a non-lifting tag those bags are the easiest to get at and replace despite their hidden location. The lifting tag I'm sure someone else can comment on but it's got to be different than my situation.
Same on a lifting tag, but looks like you might have to manually raise tag to get to lifting bags as they are normally compressed. Think Brad has a 45 ft and I have a 40 ft so might be different on his.
The bag that burst is the one that carries the load down the road . The lifting bag is not affected . First impression to replace looks like , jack to proper height , Remove the wheel . The bag is right there and looks like it should not be that big a deal to do . We'll see , as I said it is my first go round with a bag failure . The fun never stops . :D :D Brad Metzger
In my case I crawled under the coach with the wheels on and support stands inserted. Plenty of room for me back in there. All that wasted space foretravel could have filled with... something... batteries?
The bag was ordered a week ago . Billy Jack got involved as the order taker is new and struggled with it . Was told it would ship that day . Well-----here it a week later and no bag . Pony express---? Starting to wonder about this . Yes , I miss the previous parts MGR. Don't know what is what just yet but will phone again tomorrow . :( Brad Metzger
On our 03 320 with the lifting tag, I got a number from the bag and ordered from Truck Spring in Michigan. They did not have it in stock, but I had it in about 10 days. I don't know if your air bag is the same as on the 03.
Next time try MOT, they check if they have the parts in stock, and really do ship same day. Have called FOT several times and they have said they no longer stock the item because it is obsolete. Mot had the parts and shipped the same day. Just my experiences...
That Michigan Truck Spring Company is a good business to deal with . Have dealt with them several times . Don't have the part number but if but if this persists will make a move . Brad Metzger
Brad, we also had a tag axle failure like what you experienced on our 2007 Nimbus. Talking to several owners with 2007 and newer coaches, these failures are becoming more common. Apparently, the bags produced around this time period had some issues. When we had our last tag axle failure, I simply backed up the tag axle tire on a wood ramp after letting air out, chained up the axle, drove off the ramp with the tag now securely fastened up, and off to Foretravel. Luckily we were still at that time under warranty because they pulled every airbag off the rear of the coach and replaced them. When they were doing this work, I caught one mechanic cutting an airbag in half on the bench. I asked him if he was checking one of my older airbags. To my surprise, he stated this was a new airbag and was told to do this to check if the wall thickness was correct. Yes, they actually trashed one airbag to check the quality. Something they knew and were looking at.
Low and behold ---the bag finally was delivered . Only took 8 days Hmm. The UPS driver put it on our front porch , totally ignoring a permanently place sign stating all deliveries go to side door . No big deal as I saw the truck arrive .Now the fun begins . ;D Brad Metzger
Well , I got into it . Way more than I thought it would be . First thing --there is no way in hell you can get to it without first removing that wheel . I crawled under that thing and could not reach to where two of the bolts were located that are bolted to the bag base . The rear bolt was doable only . Now the top two bolts could not be reached . It is so jam packed tight that you can't even get a light to it . So off came the wheel , big heavy thing . Now you can feel the two side bolts on the base . They are located in such a way that they are not visible . They required a very short open end wrench and tapped with a hammer to loosen . Tuff part is you can not see the bolt head , only feel when it is on then tap the end of the wrench with hammer and you can only get a sixteenth of a turn on the bolt at a time . The top was much better to deal with 3/4 socket . 8 inch extension over the top of the frame part , and again you can not see the nuts or the air line fitting . Not finished yet , had to stop , warn completely out . Physically used up for the day . Will go at it again in the morning . Too tired to eat supper so had a pity party instead . ::) Brad Metzger
Brad if you lived closer I would bring some help... next time plan ahead and do this when friends are present ^.^d
Good luck!
Wow are you working on it this weekend?
Had this big idea to finish it today , but my tired bones needed a day of rest . So just puttered around the shop all day . Lying flat on your back and reaching up after a few hours sure does get your attention in the tired arm department . So , Sunday , tomorrow is the day I plan to complete it . I would gladly have paid to have some one do this , but--- . It would have been way too much on the coach to drive it to NAC like that so that is why I decided to do it myself . ::) Brad Metzger
Brad, for future knowledge, you could easily drive with the tag axle raised over great distances. I have on three occasions moved buses with a raised tag axle cross country. At first I was skeptical but when this was advised by the engineers at MCI and Prevost, I took their advice and was glad that they were right. It was explain to me that the tag axle makes the coach ride better but the coach could handle a single axle. I moved my Foretravel over 1300 miles with the tag up and no problem. Unless like you and I have owned a coach with a tag axle, this might not seem right but we know that raising the tag makes better turns and a better ride.
You do have to watch your weight. If I lift my tag, I have over 25000 lbs on drive axle, rated for 21000 lbs. Even though my ISM is 600 lbs lighter than your ISX. Might drive a couple of miles like that, but not long distances.
I hear you Bob . I had a chat with the Foretravel powers to be and was advised that the weight of the ISX put this into a different category . It was my first think to drive it to NAC but when FOT advised against it ------So all that is left is talk about how tuff it was to do it . That deal that OTM was offering on bag replacement was better than I had any idea . At that time I thought that my bag problems were way way down the road . Hmm , you never know . Brad Metzger
Got it done . Feel like I did something majorly large . Main problem is there is only one bolt visible , all --I mean all--the rest you go by feel . No problem you say ,? well here I am , old , fat , slow between the ears , screwed up shoulders and several other body parts are a bit out of whack . Hmm --- If only you could get a socket on it , or a box end wrench things would have been much betterly .Open end was what it took . I have a stubby set and had to cut off 7/8th inch to allow it to fit in that very close channel , and like I said before could only get 1/16 of a turn . On the inner side , I had to weld 2 1/8 inch back on the stubby to gain leverage as I could not get a hammer in there to tap it .Was wanting to use a regular size --no way, too tight So it took lots of time all the while reaching up and trying to turn that bolt which was very tight with resistance both on and off . Knowing now what was involved , I just felt like there was no other choice . Proud to be able and willing to do it . My coach 6527 and I don't think it is possible to do it with the wheel on the passenger side . I will cover bets on this one . But the satisfaction factor is large . I aired up the coach , all seemed to be normal . Don't know if something else is affected , but don't hear any air leeks . Will see if it holds air pressure over time . :-[ :-[ :-[ Brad Metzger
Great job
Look at it as a Prime Fitness Opportunity also!! ^.^d Now go enjoy a bowl of ice cream.
Stump , I think you are reading my mind .Got my ruff old beat up body in the house , got a long hot shower and you guessed it , A bowl of ice cream with Hershey chocolate syrup . Reward time ;D ;D ;D Brad Metzger .
Brad, well done ,now if it goes flat while on the road you now know what to do -sell it!!!
JohnH
Awesome
So far (4) hours the air pressure is holding at 121 and 122 on the glass dash . Hope it is that way in the morning . Got to take some Aleve to help with my trashed shoulders , but I feel so darn good about the satisfactory completion of this that I will sleep good tonight . ;D ;D ;D Brad Metzger
Awesome Brad.
This reminds me of a great story about an absolutely elegant, brilliant, stylish, really beautiful older woman that I had the pleasure of working with for 17 years. I learned so much from her and we became good friends. When she retired she was 80 and looked 65. No one ever believed her age.
We were at our annual company dinner and I was at her table. Another employee looked at my friend and said Myra, I hope I look half as good as you do when I'm your age.
Myra smiled her perfect smile and said: Honey, if you don't look half as good as I do now what makes you think you will when you are my age?
The air pressure dropped 10 pounds in the last 26 hours . That is how it was before the bag blew , so back to normal is how it looks now . ;D Expect to be able to roll right after Christmas and head to NAC ;D ;D ;D Brad Metzger
Your coach is very different from mine with the active air but I'd be surprised if you could see air spring pressure loss in the gauges which only measure what is left in the tanks. Also I've done 8 out of 10 bags on my coach with the last 2 this weekend probably. It's been quite an adventure.
If the geometry is the same or close to our coach, the angle of the tag suspension vs that of the top mount "cocks the bag and they wear at the bottom,hard to see when inspecting,,, replace both..
On the 2003 , 320 , I had , your pictures look like what I remember . What's on this Phenix is way different . Doing this bag was the absolute toughest mechanical procedure I ever undertook in my life time . Not a mechanic by any stretch , but not a dumb ass either . I look at the other bags on this coach and they look like a piece of cake in comparison , even the other tag bag looks much easier but still tougher than the others . Haven't looked at the front independent single bag per wheel yet . I had a close up look see at the other tag bag while fully inflated . Can't find anything that looks like any thing but new . .not even a tiny crack --. The bag that blew also looks new . Hmm. Could be I don't know exactly what to look for , but when I whipped it off and blew if off with my shop air gun ,, 160 pounds , it actually is almost shiny as in new looking . I shutter at the thought of ever having to do that job again . ??? ??? ??? Brad Metzger
Is there a pressure regulator controlling the two weight bearing bags? If so I would really take a good look with a temporary 2nd pressure gauge between the current regulator and the bag.... I have "blown" several lift-able axle bags on 4 axle tractors,leveling valve took a powder on 2 of them and several months later, the pressure regulator went full force and blew the other two.
Today while in for service at FOT , I ask several techs about replacing the passenger's side tag bag on 45 ft Phenix . They all said it is the tuffest one there is on any Foretravel . When I told them that I did it they all said bull shit , you could not do it , your too old etc. etc. Hmm , had no choice , had to do it . It works , no leaking air and yes , I smile to myself about it . ;D ;D ;D Brad Metzger
Sometimes them whipper snappers underestimate us old guys👍😬!
The more the techs bitch, the higher the flat rate charge, this is known as marketing.
I thought I had posted earlier, but can't find it. I replaced my bags at Old Town Motorcoach (NAC) while there in anticipation of future problems (had some leak down issues) a few months ago. They had a air bag replacement special for $1800 (Continental) which they were running through February. I would highly recommend them for this. Not only do I have peace of mind driving down the road, but there is no discernable leak requiring adjustment once I level the coach.U
UPDATE:
It appears that OTM is out of business, so disregard my previous recommendation. Really sorry to see them go.
I just finished the last bag on my coach, the driver side tag axle bag.. And I have to say, that was one of the worst bags I've done on the coach. The air nut required a 1 1/16 driver not the 1 1/8 ratcheting wrench I had. It was difficult to fit the 1 1/8 on there without the right voodoo extensions. The new bag top studs did not fit through the holes because of some kind of tolerance issue so they required "finessing" (aka kicking and punching). And then unlike the firestone bags I was unable to pull it open to tighten the bottom studs so I had to just connect the air line and have the wife slowly put air into the bag while guiding the bottom studs in. All that effort and I was covered in filth when done from crawling around under the coach. The "inner bags" (aka the rearmost front bags or the frontmost rear bags) were the easiest even though I thought they would be a problem. I actually bought something called a tite reach to handle it but I realized that a 3/8 ratchet with a 3/8 deep socket fit perfectly and allowed you enough room to swing the ratchet towards the OUTSIDE of the coach. I could write a whole story on this job and I'm glad it's finished. I might make a video to explain it all. 99% of the job is having the exact right tools.