I have had my coach plugged in to the house 120V all winter and added a Float Charger to try and maintain the engine batteries, knowing that the house batteries would be taken care of by the 120V line from the house.
I have a feeling that the float charger is not man enough for the job and this morning noticed that the engine batteries were showing 9.6V. The temperature this afternoon has risen to Plus 1F which has some effect on the issue as well!!
So where to go from here?? I could have the Boost switch ON and have them all being charged all the time, but that is not to my liking in case the house supply should drop off in which case both sets of batteries could become depleted without my knowledge??
So to the experts put there, any ideas???
Happy Christmas to All.
Speedbird 1.
Ultra TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer (http://www.lslproducts.net/TLSPage.html)
Turn on boost right away for now, your batteries are suffering I use a battery minder 1500 and that keeps up with the three red tops no problem Others use an echo charger or trik l start, and use the house batteries to charge the chassis batteries.
Maybe bad charger on chassis batteries?
How old are the engine batteries? Have they run down before?
At those temperatures, if you don't charge them right now (and it may be too late), they will FREEZE.
I replaced my boost solenoid with this, and it automatically keeps everything charged and STILL works as a boost solenoid, without the 5 amp limitation of the trik l start (for example, leaving your parking lights on while parked at a rest stop with generator running, start batteries will not go dead!)
Combiner 600 Sheet (http://www.yandina.com/c600Info.htm)
Thank you everyone. Just as I thought the float charger was not up to the task.
My engine batteries are Gels and two years old and I have now got them connected to the rest of the system via the Boost switch. I may have just got lucky??? With the boost switch on they show 14.0 volts which, of course is the same as the house batteries indicate.
One Trick-L-Start on order, thanks to all.
Speedbird 1
What is your "Float Charger"? I wonder why it could not keep up.
It was a Battery Maintainer but only 1.25amp so that could have had a lot to do with it. I should have fitted at least a 5amp version.
Also minus 5F out there right now so I was expecting too much. It just happened to be the spare "maintainer" that I found under the workbench.
Speedbird 1
If you decide to go with the Trik-L-Start, be sure your start batteries are fully charged before you hook it up. It is designed to maintain the charge of fully charged batteries, not to recharge almost dead batteries. We have had the Trik-L-Start on our coach for several years, and it does a great job. Our start batteries are always topped off and ready to go, no matter how long it is between trips.
I would also check to be sure all your battery connections are clean and tight. There should not be any significant drain on the start batteries when the coach is parked, but it would be worthwhile to determine what exactly is powered by that bank, and turn off everything you can. See the thread below for some tips on reducing "phantom" battery loads:
Phantom load sources? (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=29465).
Thanks Chuck & Jeanne,
I did do a check for phantom loads on both sets of batteries, back when it was warmer and less White!! I found very little, and now I have the Boost switch selected and coupling all the batteries up I should be in good shape by the time the Trick-L-Charge arrives as ordered it this afternoon.
My coach is a 2001 U320 and I would appreciate knowing the easiest place to connect the Trick-L-Charge to close to the engine battery location??
Speedbird 1
If you have a diode based isolator on your coach, and it is easily accessible, then that would be the best spot. Yellow wire connects to coach (house) battery post on isolator, and blue one connects to the start battery post on isolator. Ground wire (black) to any handy spot nearby.
Top post in this thread: TRIK-L-START Installation (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=9459.msg43123#msg43123)
And this picture. Battery Isolator under the bed.
Thanks Dan,
Even I can find that under the bed!! I don't even have to roll in the snow!!
Speedbird1
We put a switch on the Trik L Start wire connecting to the start battery bank. Without a switch to easily turn off, when start battery cables are disconnected all start battery loads will continue to have voltage, which can be problematic, especially if unaware that the TLS is powering everything.
Thanks, Barry & Cindy,
A very good point for the unwary!! Could be shocking!!!! Thank you.
Speedbird 1
Well, it may just be a Happy Christmas with my coach batteries??
I just went out to play in the snow, (10F) and to check the status of my Engine batteries after they had been on Boost for 24hrs and I am pleased to note that with the Boost switch OFF the engine batteries held 11.6 volts, so maybe I got lucky??
The boost is back ON and I await the delivery of the Trik-L-Start
Best Wishes to ALL
,Speedbird 1
see what they are tomorrow - seems low to me, but I am not a battery expert
Someone mentioned cleaning and tightening the terminals - will cure a lot of ills - even if they look clean
Hope you got lucky
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz)
TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro
Thanks Tim,
It may sound a little low but a lot better than the 9.6v that I started with. The 11.6 held solid for over 30mins so I am hopeful?? The terminals were all cleaned and greased last summer, but will get the once over once I can get to the side doors with the snow!!
Every hopeful, and even grateful!!
Speedbird 1.
Don't want to snow on your parade, but you can't get a true voltage reading until 6-12 hours after you remove batteries from a charger. Some of the voltage you see initially is called surface charge. It will disappear as soon as you put a load on them. The best way to judge sealed (gel or AGM) battery condition is with a suitable load tester.
The snow has already hit my parade as it is still falling up here, and I have cleared the driveway twice today!!
I get your point, but was encouraged by the fact that the voltage stayed steady for at least 30mins which is a lot better than a big drop off.
With the Winter well and truly in place up here I will continue using the Boost switch, and monitor it, until the Trik-L-Start appears. Once I get that fitted I may get a better idea, followed by an even better idea when it warms up a bit!! I do have a load tester and will check them all before I start thinking about a trip anywhere.
It will be a Good Year Santa Claus!!!
Speedbird 1.
With charger/boost switch off, turning the headlights on for 5 minutes will take the surface charge off the chassis batteries, then take the voltage reading after turning headlights back off.
Thanks Dan,
I will do that once the White stuff gives me a break!!
Speedbird 1.
Yup, 11.6 is still DEAD.
You may want to consider trying a chemical battery re-newal. There is stuff out there that is advertised to bring batteries in this condition back to life. I've never used any of it, but a little home work in this area may be a good thing for you. Have a great day ---- Fritz
Thanks Fritz. I have heard of the stuff but thought it only worked on wet cell batteries, and these are Gels?? But, as I stand they will stay on charge and I will get a better evaluation once the White stuff departs and I get it to the shop for a proper check.
Thank you All,
Speedbird 1.
I have had a 67% success rate with a battery desulfication charger. Takes a long time, and sometimes I have to discharge even lower voltage to get it to kick in. Not sure if it works on AGM batteries.
Well the saga continues two days later, and now with the Boost OFF the engine batteries hold at just over 12V for as long as I can sit out there!! Not a scientific check, I know, but at least they are holding above 11V.
I also called by the battery shop where I got them, in August 2015, and they will take them and deep cycle them for me when the snow departs and I can actually get at them. They are also warranted for 5yrs. Not that I want to use that card but good to know.
More to follow at a much later date!!
Speedbird1
Never heard of deep cycle as a fix. Deep discharge would not be beneficial. Could be they will put a load test on fully charged batteries?
They are Deep Cycle gel cells and the battery shops seems to think they can do a deep cycle?? I only know about Ni/Cads that are deep cycled in the airline industry so I guess I will have to wait and see.
But, any input is welcome as we have many here who know what they are talking about.
Speedbird1
Would be helpful to charge them but no matter what do not discharge them further. Even 12 volts is dead. They should be 12.7+ all the time. You do NOT need to deep cycle them, as thats what you have just done. All they need at this point is a full charge and to be maintained at a full charge. If they were my expensive batteries, I would have bought an automatic charger and had it on them the minute I found them low. This is the only thing a dead lead acid battery needs. Anything below a full charge shortens their life.
OPTIMA® Battery Chargers |OPTIMA® Digital 400 and Digital 1200 12V Performanc... (https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/battery-charger) Is a good one. I have the bigger model and it is an excellent charger.
Thank you RvTrvlr,
All you say is correct and way back at the beginning of this saga I believe I mentioned that I had fitted an externally powered Battery Minder, but not being wide awake at the time (and the one I had spare) it only supplied 1.25amps. Not man enough for the job. The mail man has, somewhere in the system, a 5amp Trik-L-Charge on its way to my door which will be fitted as soon as the temperature and snow allows!! With that installed, after a full charge, I will go away and lick my wounds for being so dim!!!
Roll on Springtime!!
Speedbird 1.
1.25 amps should be enough to keep a bank above 13V. The key here is maintaining approx 13.0V to 13.5V. I just made a jumper between the two cigar lighters and that keeps both banks above 13V. That's why I put the twin digital voltmeters on the instrument panel so I can keep an exact eye on them and have no surprises. The OEM charger still works fine after 25 years. Not all do. I do have a 2 amp trickle charger that is pre-connected so in case the OEM charger does not look right, I just plug it in. In a trial, the trickle kept the voltages at about 13.4V. The coach is covered so our solar won't work.
Deep cycle AGMs don't like to stay discharged and after a very short time are only good for recycled lead. If the batteries are disconnected, a charged AGM will easily go all winter in the coldest condition and be fine.
Pierce
Speedbird1:
Where did you order your Trik-L-Start (or Trik-L-Charge) from?
On 12/11/17, I ordered a Toad-Charge from LSL Products. They appear to be out of business.
Bob
You are not making me happy. I ordered a Trik-L-Start from LSL on 12/27/17. I hope they are out of business.
I ordered the Trik-L-Start direct from the manufacturer, last week, and had a notification of Priority Mail delivery sent yesterday. I will advise when it actually gets here.
All you advice is good, but, the important part is that the batteries must be fully charged for the Trik-L-Start to do its job or any other float charger for that matter.
I just "hope" that I saw the lower voltage readings in time, and only time will tell?? Or, coach bucks will be needed.
Speedbird 1
Bob, did you ever hear anything about your late order? Why do you think that LSL is out of business? Any follow up with them? LSL is a major manufacturer of good stuff and we would like to know if they are shipping.
-----Original Message----- From: BobW via ForeForums [mailto:noreply@foreforums.com]
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2017 9:46 AM
To: foretraveler@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [ForeForums] Float Charing/maintaining
Speedbird1:
Where did you order your Trik-L-Start (or Trik-L-Charge) from?
I think something may be astray in LSL shipping department label tags per "the Brays" post "incredible journey" IRC. It's in the around the fire ring section.
Rather than theorizing, if concerned about LSL Products company "health", why not just give them a call?
LSL Products / LSLProducts.com - Problem-Solving Gear & Gadgets (http://www.LSLProducts.net)
877-257-4655 (NOTE: No orders accepted by phone)
Support/Customer Service Hours: 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM CST Monday-Saturday
If you are maintaining a fully charged battery the 5 amps should be ok. If you exceed its limits as I did with a 30 amp unit any internal fuzing might blow. My 30 amp unit blew its fuse trying to charge dead chassis batteries. No notification. Batteries were damaged from running to zero and the 30 amp unit was not powerful enough to recharge them.
All these weak "triklcharge" devices make no sense. There are much better solutions such as the yandina that replaces the boost solenoid and adds fully automatic switching as well as majntaining the manual "boost" ability. I have seen similar designs from Blue Sea Systems and many others that do the same thing without a 5 or 30 amp limit and are totally plug and play.
Blue sea auto connects if either battery bank is receiving a charge. Auto disconnects on discharge. 500 amp rating. Has both manual disconnect, auto connect and manual connect.
I can hear the rear solenoid click to auto connect as our small solar panel set starts charging
Do not want to hijack the thread. But since I was asked................
Ordered "Toad-Charge" with 40ft wire from LSL Products on December 11, 2017.
Charge card charged for $109.90 on 12/12/17
Purchase was handled by "2CO" a payment processing company. Link:www.2co.com
Per 2CO, On 12/12/17 the order was sent by standard priority mail. No tracking available. (We are 250 miles south of San Antonio.)
Emails sent to LSL Products (lslproducts@earthlink.net) on 12/12/17 and 12/20/17. Both emails returned with a 'failure notice' stating that the message was not able to be delivered.
12/20/17: Called LSL Products at 877-257-4655. The recording said to leave a message, which I did. NO response.
12/21/17: Called LSL products at 210-697-9502. Message said that this number has been disconnected. Phone and address found by web search using "Corera Business Directory" LSL Products, 5807 Babcock Rd #108. San Antonio, TX 210-697-9502
12/21/17: Called 2CO at 877-297-0273 and explained the lack of response from LSL. 2CO said that they would contact the customer. The rep also confessed that they only had the same phone number that I had. They also suggested that I wait a few more days, then call them again.
Asked our SD mail forwarding service (and billing address) if the Toad-Charge had mistakenly been delivered there. It had not.
Since I had not received the toad-charge by 12/24/17, I reviewed the above with my charge card company. They then credited my account. 2CO subsequently credited my account.
Bob
As I mentioned before, I ordered a Trik-L-Start on 12/27/2017. It arrived today via USPS Priority Mail, safe and sound. Whatever mailing issues others have encountered, mine certainly had no problem.
We purchased BlueSea, and worked with their tech support, but found two issues in our coach that sent us to other options.
With both banks combined, engine start loads dropped voltages on both banks, but BlueSea has a start disconnect option that we used, which helped.
We ran the inside monitor lamp that showed when banks were connected, and noticed that many times start bank was not connected because our house battery was only being charged at around 13.0 volts. We have our Xantrex Prosine 2.0 on a custom profile that tracks Deka 8D8G battery charge chart. We found our house batteries 'normal' temp in hot weather about 100 degrees, which calls for float around 13 volts. Connection needs higher voltage.
We then tried another voltage control combiner with similar results, so we just decided to store our two new combiners and go back to a trusty diode based combiner that we used before buying the two voltage combiners.
Others will find voltage combiners work for them, but thinking that voltage controlled combiners have no issues and work on all conditions is just not correct. Both types have their downsides.
For any lead battery that was held at 9.6 volts for any length of time, I recommend this test:
1. Fully charge, desulphate and do a full, professional load test at NAPA or other competent industrial-strength commercial battery purveyor. If this test fails:
2. Replace batteries.
If you want the full Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) you have to have known good batteries.
When I bought my U270, the coach batteries read 10 volts due to being cooked and required 1.5 gallons of water. I replaced them (one coach buck) because I had a 2,700 mile trip to bring the coach home. I did not want to be stranded because of a battery issue. Engine batteries are even more demanding due to their 1800 CCA requirement.
Thanks Barry for the Interesting results. Yes I remember asking my guru about the auto connect feature. I think blue sea auto connects if either battery bank receives 13.5 volts. So a reduced voltage temp controlled may not engage the auto connect circuits.
My digital dash gauges show the auto connect engagement.
So hot weather and any temp controlled below auto engagement set points would require manually connecting the batteries.
That way an inadvertent discharge would run both battery banks down.
Does anyone make a battery temp controlled auto combiner?
Thanks for posting your experiences with the blue sea.
One more thing to aware of.
I think I might have experienced the non auto connect before but did not put in the low voltage from the charger not connecting.
The latching voltage may be adjustable if I am remembering his comments.
Edit: Seems my 500 amp blue sea auto connects within 30 seconds at 13.5 volts and within 90 seconds at 13.0 volts so they seem to have addressed that issue
Bob,
Our first voltage controlled combiner was Blue Sea SI-ACR, which does not have variable voltage combine settings, but did have start disconnect.
Second voltage combiner was Magnum Smart Battery Combiner ME-SBC, which does have variable voltage settings.
Both are stored away after fiddling and trying very hard to have them keep our start battery under a charge. Just new issues with each, so we have resorted back to a simple low amp diode based Trik L Start and it just works great all the time.
We considered LSL newer, higher amp combiner, Amp L Start. While it has some good features, it is still voltage controlled, so I did not try it and stayed with their original Trik L Start.
For us, our start batteries starter current is put back from engine alternator and I only need a low amp continuous charge to keep start battery bank happy.
Trik L Start is attached at isolator and has a switch on one battery wire to keep engine wiring from having voltage if disconnecting start battery wiring to clean battery or change engine things.
Thanks for your experiences. Helps me.
Our 14 amp solar that because of a small wire connecting it to the refer at its back suffers a voltage drop to be 13.6 volts at the batteries themselves.
That's just enough of a charge rate and volts to auto engage the combiner.
Maybe one panel would do the same thing?
This same set of parts would not keep up the system's charge until I replaced the bad engine start batteries. Fixed.
Next thing to work on is to temp regulate all the systems as best as possible.
At 13.6 volts from both the solar and the alternator the over voltage is only an issue at really hot weather we try not to be at much.
But the ability to turn up the alternator for quicker charging during a drive after use would be nice as long as the system auto decreases the voltage depending on the batteries SOC. Possible to need two controllers as the battery banks are located at different spots with different temps by quite alot.
Maybe more hassle than it's worth. Or maybe not.
To finish off what I started. My Trik-L-Start arrived by priority mail and is a very comprehensive kit with good instructions, plus those from the forum that made it an easy fit. Thank you all.
The only difficulties other than waiting for some snow to melt so that I could access the house batteries to disconnect the ground, were the good quality steel that the battery isolator is mounted on, making it hard to drill and then finding a drill the correct size for the supplied self tapping screws.
When I left it yesterday it was showing a "charge" light and this morning it shows "maintaining" so I guess I have done it??
Now for Spring!!!
Speedbird 1.