Last week when I took my coach out for a short spin to see if I had fixed my power issues I did a no no when I parked it, I left the head lights on. :o
I did not notice it until yesterday when I drove up there to do a weekly check of running everything up and first off there was no dinging of the air system and the gauges didn't move. When I turned the key to start nothing happened. Then I checked the batteries and they showed 2.4 V so I started looking for why they were drained and found the head light switch still on.
Well hoping for the best I turned the switch off and checked the voltage at the converter and it was showing 14 V. So after about a hour of measuring the holes for the CO and LP detector, unplugging the shore power and running the generator the voltage was up to 3 volts.
I went back up there this morning to see if they can on up or not and they did not. I checked the battery on closest to the outside and it was back to 2.4 volts. I checked the instide battery where the converter wires were and I can tell if the voltage is jumping from 2.4xx and 3.2xx or if it is 24xx – 32xx. The needle is moving so fast I cant tell if there is a decimal point or not.
So long story short with the converter showing a steady 14 volts out is it OK?
And of course I did not have a tape measure with me so what type of red top batteries and what size?
Signed DA :-[
It doesn't seem that the inverter charge is getting to the batteries. Can you unhook the battery ground and check voltage at the input of the batteries? My inverter charger would keep up with headlights on.
Thanks craneman, I can do that but it may be Monday, as the temp where the coach is was 28° at 11 am and falling with a mist and chance of rain ::)
Are there any devices between that converter and the batteries?
The invertor goes to the house batteries not the chassis batteries. You have to have the boost switch on to hook them together. Most have a dedicated chassis charger, Echo, Trickle start etc.
You could buy a inexpensive digital voltage reader (about $5) that plugs into you dash cigarette lighter. It should read the engine start batteries voltage.
I leave one plugged into all my cars.
maybe that is why when I picked it up the boos switch was on?
I know the light on the boost switch does not work and I did turn it on to see if I could start the coach with it on but no power.
I do have a regular battery charger I can take out there and hook up if that might help?
Thanks Lon I will see if I can find one
After you get your start battery bank charged up, how about preventing the same problem in the future: Have a buzzer that alerts when lights are left on:
Vehicle Headlight Reminder (http://www.instructables.com/id/Vehicle-headlight-reminder/) Build or buy one...
It has saved us.
My thoughts exactly "LOL"
Thanks, I was not sure what to search for
You are not alone, I left ours on just after we had bought the coach. When I heard banging on the door in the middle of the night, I was not pleased, but it was a kind soul who noticed and saved me from discharge! ^.^d
Well I went out looking for the Isolator under the bed and I dont think I found it.
I found that the voltage in this box was a bit over 13 V to the large Red wire and the ground block.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foretravel/Forums-post/i-Vm8VZ67/0/d80ace1f/L/20180210_153738-L.jpg)
In the engine compartment I found this and it only had 3 V on both sides of this.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foretravel/Forums-post/i-jp2q5Zw/0/a0418048/L/20180210_153710-L.jpg)
The battery isolater is behind the driver side dual wheels mounted on the frame you can see it by opening the small door behind the rear wheels left side of coach or drivers side.
I did the same thing. Replace the batteries never was right afterwards.
Thanks red tractor, I will go back out there Monday and see if I can find it.
I did put a battery charger on it, I let it run about 30 minutes on 10 amps then turned it down to 2 amps before I left.
The engine compartment back wall with 3volts is a Cummins relay that controls intake manifold electric grid heater & fuel injector that comes into play when engine is cold. It also manages the dash "wait to start" light, which stays on longer when engine is colder.
Don't mess with it.
Thanks Barry, all I did was check the voltage on it.
That is why I take pictures and ask before I mess something up, I am good at that ;D
Steve,
I do not know how good your batteries were before your headlight incident, but based on everything I have heard (on this forum), they are now TOAST. They need to be replaced, period.
Just the messenger,
Trent
Thanks Trent, that is probably true but there is still the issue as to why or how to charge the chassis batteries from shore power. The coach batteries are charging just fine but evidently not the chassis ones.
If having the Boost turned on should charge them all then that is not happening as when I turn on the Boost it make no difference to the voltage going towards starting the coach :(
Steve,
With this symptom you need to check the boost solenoid. It is what is closed when you activate the "Boost switch" on the inst. panel. This should be located next to the isolator on the same mounting plate. Reply #11 from Red Tractor will give you this location I am talking about.
Mike
Thanks Mike, I have a running word document that I paste all the info into so I will print it out before I go back out there. By printing things out lessons the problems with CRS :))
I also have the trouble shooting info I have found in the document and list of thing I need to take with me, I hate it when I drive 45 miles to get that and realize oh I forgot something :o
Simple steps to check the functionality of the boost solenoid:
1. First, locate the BOOST solenoid. (This may be the hardest step for a new owner. Search the Forum for tips on how to find & identify)
2. With BOOST switch off, check the voltage on each of the large contact studs. (In your present situation, voltage readings will be different). Then check the small coil stud (or studs, if there are 2) for voltage - small stud (or studs) should not show any voltage present.
3. With BOOST switch on, check the voltage on each of the large contact studs. If solenoid is working, voltage should now be the same on both large studs. If it is not, try tapping the solenoid body lightly with a suitable tool, then check large studs again. If voltage readings are still different, check the small stud (or studs) for voltage - it ( or one of them if 2 studs) should show 12 volts. If small stud is "hot" but solenoid is not working (closing), replace the solenoid.
If you need a replacement solenoid, the model linked below is commonly recommended by our members. Whatever you buy, be sure it is rated for continuous duty and sufficiently high amperage. Replacement solenoids can have one or two small studs. If there are 2 studs, connect the control wire (from dash switch) to one and a ground wire to the other - they are interchangeable.
While waiting on a new solenoid, you could temporarily bypass the defective unit by removing the heavy cables from both of the large posts, and connecting them together with a nut and bolt. Be very careful to keep these connected cables insulated and away from any chassis ground points to avoid suffering a HIGH AMPERAGE short circuit. Also remember that IF the two battery banks are (temporarily) connected together, ALL of your batteries be drained if any loads (like the headlights) are left turned on.
Cole Hersee 24213 12V 200A Continuous Solenoid | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cole-Hersee-24213-12V-200A-Continuous-Solenoid/253416228144?epid=17012051224&hash=item3b00c8c530:g:f2UAAOSwDApae-Kf)
Thanks Chuck, I will go check it tomorrow. We still have freezing rain and sleet for today, right now it is on the west side of Fort Worth so I plan on staying inside and warm. ^.^d
Here's a few photos for your reference. The first shows the isolator's general location. I took this photo with the air cleaner removed but you'll see the isolator in back of and above the air cleaner. The second photo shows what you might see when you locate the isolator board. Hopefully, yours in in better shape than this one. You might not see the boost solenoid as it may be hidden behind a jumble of wires and cables. It's there on the lower right. The third photo shows it better. Mine is a 97 270 so I'm guessing yours will be similar.
jor
Thanks jor, that give me so good reference points ^.^d
When you shut down for any lengthy period, you should have a check list to make sure nothing is left on. The boost solenoid while continuous duty is not meant for continuous duty day after day. It's only should be used for emergency starting or allowing the generator to charge the engine batteries in case of an alternator failure. The Cole-Hersee solenoid is not a latching solenoid so it uses juice and creates heat any time it's on. Many have needed to be replaced as the "continuous" duty rating is abused.
I just run a cord from the dash lighter plug to the HWH side panel lighter plug receptacle to tie the two battery banks together while the coach is not being used or even when dry camping with the solar in operation. Below is a photo of the house and engine battery voltage while the coach is plugged in at home. This the the reading since we purchased the coach back in 2008 using the stock OEM charger. I just replaced our engine batteries but the AGM deep cycles are still in good shape many years later.
In the photo with the twin voltmeters, you can see the lighter plug at the bottom as used to tie the banks together.
Pierce
One reason a boost solenoid may not get 12 volts when dash boost switch is on: If the dash switch is powered by start battery bank, it will not have enough voltage to power solenoid.
It depends where the dash switch gets its power source. I could get power from both battery bank with diodes, or a manual switch could choose which bank to power dash switch.
Thanks Pierce, I need to do some more digging in my books to see if it does have some charger to charge the coach batteries. That will let me know weather I need to fix something or add something besides a buzzer if I leave the lights on again. ^.^d
Thanks Barry, I will have to do some more testing once I get it running again, at the least I know the light in the switch has never lit up
Boost sw. on light can be fixed. Just pull out the sw. and you can remove the piece that holds the light bulb. Bulbs are available at most auto parts stores. (just did mine) Have a great day ---- Fritz
Thanks Fritz, I will have to get it working first as from what I have read if the solenoid does not work the light may not come on anyway??
Steve.
When you plug into shore power, the OEM charger starts charging only the house batteries. Many forum members have had problems with the OEM charger and have boiled their batteries. Ours works fine and the photo I posted was taken today. There are a couple dozen reasons to have the twin voltmeters on the dash where you can monitor them driving or in storage. It gives you an instant picture of alternator output, charger health, house battery voltage after watching TV half the night etc. I tie them together while parked so I don't need a separate charger. I have connected a trickle charger to the engine batteries and used the connecting cable to keep both fully charged but this arrangement is perfect. You do have to unplug the two male lighter plugs before you go anywhere. I like the 13.1 volts but would go to a different charger if the voltage were to exceed 13.5V or drop below 13V. I just used a zip cord to tie the two together. The cord or plugs never even get warm. It pays to visit the coach frequently and check voltages as batteries are expensive. I do have the voltmeters on a switch so I don't have to have them visible all the time, especially at night. They get their respective readings off of the Audit wires. The color codes/numbers shown for the Audit in a separate schematic.
Pierce
Thanks Pierce, I will look around my dash and see where I can mount a pair of gauges ^.^d
Post linked below shows the inexpensive volt meters I installed about 6 months ago. They have been working perfectly. I really like being able to quickly and easily check the relative voltage on both battery banks, both while driving and while parked.
What did you do to your coach today VI (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30072.msg282406#msg282406)
Looks good Chuck, I will have to do some measuring and see where I have some space. My dash is a lot different than yours.
Steve,
You should have the luminescent dash in your coach. (seems like buy your build number they had added them to the 270s) Doing a cut out in the aluminum dash sections can have devastating effects on the way the dash lights up. Now if the luminescent dash lighting system is dead already then there is no harm.
Mike
Yes Mike I do have the luminescent dash, I have one spot about 1/4" long in the bottom left corner that does not work but it appears that the rest of it is OK and still lights up.
Well today it was above freezing and I went to the coach and did some testing.
First of all after I charged the batteries over night last weekend they were still up today and it started right up.
Next I found the isolator and below it are two solenoids. I take it one is for the Boost and not sure what the other one is for.
When I measured the voltage on the front one from large terminal to the other large terminal it was around 13.4 volts. The other one bounced around some but it looked like about 117 volts??? It didn't seem to make any difference if the Boost switch was on or not.
When I check the small terminal on the front one there was just minimal voltage like 1.2 to 2 volts.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foretravel/Forums-post/i-2GPMTg5/0/83f57626/M/2%20selnoids-M.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foretravel/Forums-post/i-cJTbffN/0/83ec2cbd/L/FrontSelionide-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Foretravel/Forums-post/i-Dqjz6CG/0/76fd762b/L/RearSelionid-L.jpg)
Steve, Solenoids: 1 each for Boost (small wire from dash boost switch) & Starting (small wire from ignition key start position (through neutral-start relay located on front panel) . . . Manually put 12 volts on small boost solenoid will connect both battery banks. Manually put 12 volts on start solenoid will crank engine.
Thanks Barry, so the rear one is the starter solenoid?
If I have 13 volts going through the front solenoid is that sending the 13 volts to the chassis batteries?
Steve, On the boost solenoid, one of the big cables is connected to house battery bank. The other big cable is connected to start battery bank. If solenoid works, when its small wire is powered, the two banks of batteries are connected together. And the current flows from the bank with the higher voltage to the bank with the lower voltage. Current flow direction has nothing to do what a voltage actually measures, as current will always flow from high to low, no matter what the voltages are. When engine is off and house battery is being charged, the start bank usually has the lower voltage, so in this case current flows to start batteries.
Thanks Barry, next time out I will air it up so I can get under it and follow the wire from the starter to the solenoid to see which one is for the starter then label it and the other one for the batteries, that way CRS wont bite me to hard the next time ;)
Steve,
It is easy to tell the solenoids apart, just from looking at your photos.
What you have labeled as "front" is your AUX START solenoid. It has light gauge wires attached to both large posts. One of the large posts should always show 12 volts - the other large post should only show 12 volts when the ignition switch is turned to "start". Turning your ignition switch to "start" powers the small solenoid post. This closes the solenoid switch, which in turn sends 12 volt power to the STARTER solenoid. Then your engine (hopefully) starts.
What you have labeled as "rear" is the BOOST solenoid. It has heavy battery cables attached to both of the large posts. The only function of this solenoid is to allow connection of the two battery banks (for whatever reason).
When you measure the voltage on any solenoid, you don't measure across the two large posts on the solenoid - you must measure each large post individually. Read the voltage on one large post, then move your probe to the other large post and read the voltage there.
Checking the BOOST solenoid with the boost switch OFF, the small post on the solenoid should not show any voltage, and you should read start battery voltage on one large post, and coach battery voltage on the other large post. Under most conditions, they will be different. With the boost switch turned ON, the small post will show 12 volts and both large posts on the BOOST solenoid should read identical voltage. If they don't, the solenoid is not closing/functioning correctly.
Another thought:
Those 2 rusted square blobs ( just below and to the left of the "F" in front) in your pics. that have wires coming off of them are self resetting breakers. The one on the right is for the condenser fan this is a 20 amp breaker. The one on the left is for the dash A/C compressor clutch and it also has the alternator sense wire hooked up to it. This one should be a 15 amp. Some people have moved the sense wire to a better location to keep from getting a low voltage indication when the compressor kicks in. The pics. show that the lugs are covered in rust/corrosion and this area needs to be cleaned up for proper voltage readings to the alternator. Both of these should get there power feed from the aux. start solenoid.
Do you have prints B-2126, A-4752, and A-6122? These are a must have to help trouble shoot some of the 12vdc system. If you don't have these I will bring my copies on my next trip to FTW so we can hook up and swing by the print shop to get you a set of prints that will help you out. These prints may be in the Wiki section here on the forum.
Pamela & Mike
Thanks Chuck that helps clear things up a lot.
When I measured both solenoids from their large post one at a time to ground the voltage was fluctuating so bad it was impossible to get a good reading, I am using a Southwire Digital 600 Volt Clamp Meter.
Guess I need to unplug from shore power and battery ground and clean up the post and a place to ground and retest, if it is still fluctuating would the isolator cause that?
Thanks Mike, When I clean up the others I will get these too while I am at it.
There are some diagrams in the back of big red but from here I am not sure which ones they are, I will look the next time I go out there.
Guess I need to get some new notebook for them as these are shot, I guess the PO used them a lot :)
Steve,
I know you are working under less-than-ideal weather conditions, which doesn't make this trouble shooting any easier.
No, the fluctuation is not caused by the isolator. The voltage reading on your multimeter should not flucuate, regardless of what is hooked up or not hooked up. I suspect you may be having a hard time finding a good ground point for the NEG probe. All that dirt and rust everywhere is not helping.
SO, (as soon as weather permits) it would be good to get that whole panel cleaned up, as suggested by Mike. Replace any components (like the circuit breakers) that look really bad. They are cheap. Once you have good, clean connections on ALL the cables and wires, you will be in a much better position to solve any remaining problems. Just cleaning up the connections might actually fix all your woes!
My isolator panel looked exactly like yours when we got the coach. After spending a (nice, warm, dry) day under the coach, cleaning and replacing, my panel looked much better (see below). You can do exactly the same thing, and it will make your life easier, believe me.
Thanks Chuck that look nice and clean.
Mother nature is not the nicest this time of year, last weekend it in the 30's and blowing, this weekend it is in the 40's and raining. It does not help that it is 40 miles to just get to the coach but I dont have anyplace at home to park it for a couple of days at a time to work on it as I live on a cul-de-sac and my drive is to steep to get up and not thick enough to hold the coach.
The first time I backed my 5er up the drive I told the DW to let me know if I started dragging anything, well I got it up there and stopped and she came up to the truck and said "you bent some metal things sticking down and knock the spare tire off". :o
When you get around to cleaning up the panel, two excellent products often recommended on this Forum are:
Amazon.com: Hosa D5S-6 CAIG DeoxIT 5% Spray Contact Cleaner, 5 oz.: Musical... (https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-D5S-6-DeoxIT-Contact-Cleaner/dp/B00006LVEU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1518884473&sr=8-3&keywords=deoxit)
Amazon.com: Corrosion-X 90102 Anti-Corrosion and Lubricant, 16-Ounce,... (https://www.amazon.com/Corrosion-X-90102-Anti-Corrosion-Lubricant-16-Ounce/dp/B003HFTI0S/ref=pd_bxgy_200_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003HFTI0S&pd_rd_r=JHA035C4DC3M0ST3351R&pd_rd_w=mcGDq&pd_rd_wg=jVLzW&psc=1&refRID=JHA035C4DC3M0ST3351R)
DeoxIT to clean, Corrosion-X to preserve your hard work. Shop around online (Google) for the best price.
Thanks Chuck, I added those to my shopping list,
I think I need to add about a 6'x6' indoor/outdoor carpet too, my coach is parked on pea to marble sized Caliche and it is hard on the old knees :o
Steve,
With the strange voltage readings you are reporting take a reading right off the alternator taps. Yes when the engine is running. It can be done safely you just have to be extremely careful with the moving belts and pulleys. Unplug from the shore power so we are sure that we are starting with just the alternator voltage and not some stray voltage from a bad isolator.
Pamela & Mike
That should read about 13.4 volts also?
I know about being careful, I have had knuckles thumped before ^.^d
IF the alternator/voltage regulator is functioning correctly,
and
IF the sense wire is connected correctly (so it sees START battery voltage),
and
IF the isolator is functioning correctly,
THEN, you would like to see at least 14.8 volts at the alternator (+) output terminal, to insure complete battery charge. A little higher (14.8 - 14.9) wouldn't hurt, but you don't want it much more than that. See the battery manufacturer's guidance for optimum charging voltage. Try to set the alternator to put out optimum plus another 0.7 volt to account for losses through the isolator.
Thanks I will add this to my list, i am up to about 2 1/2 pages ^.^d
Once you battery banks are fully charged higher than float voltage measured at the battery is overcharging them.
If in hot weather float voltage can be 13.2 or less.
If you drive long runs that high of an overcharge voltage can definitely damage the banks.
Wolfe10 mentioned the same voltage I ended up using. 13.6 as a compromise.
Switching to a auto combiner eliminated the isolater losses.
Both dash digital plug in gauges show 13.5 or 13.6 driving.
VPMS shows engine at 13.3 nominally.
Future step is a starting battery temp controlled alternator. Then its voltage could be turned up for winter type weather max charging.
Perfect charging makes everything last longer in my experience.
Left my dash red digital battery voltage gauge plugged in with the coach stored and door switch off and combiner in auto.
Engine start was at 12.5 house was 13.6.
Without the digital gauge on the solar and auto combiner keep both at 13.5.
Remove the gauge until at the coach it seems.
Thanks Bob, I will add that to my spread sheet but that may be a project for next fall unless my current issue calls for doing it now.