Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: joeszeidel on February 25, 2018, 02:14:45 pm
Title: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on February 25, 2018, 02:14:45 pm
Recently I posted a couple of threads, one dealing with my charger/inverter and the second on my salesmen sw. After camping this weekend at Lazy Days I cant help but think maybe they are related. Let me explain, first the salesman sw. Works fine when plugged into shore power or when the engine is running. When unplugged and engine not running does not work. When engine is running I can start the generator and when its plugged in but when unplugged and engine not running it will not start. Also when engine is running I can start the generator but when I shut the engine off the generator shuts off. Now the charger/ inverter. When the engine is running it puts out 14 volts. When plugged in I'm getting 17 volts. And finally all these problems came at once which makes me think they are related. Now I need opinions which I greatly appreciate.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: wolfe10 on February 25, 2018, 02:17:35 pm
A bad cell in the house battery can do all that.
Fully charge them then load test them or if wet cell, check each sell with a hydrometer.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Barry & Cindy on February 25, 2018, 05:53:56 pm
This COULD explain it all...
Salesman switch does not MAKE electricity, it just connects house battery bank to coach for lights, gen start, water pump, etc. When switch is off nothing will be powered. When switch is on, IF battery is completely dead / empty, nothing will work.
IF house batteries are dead / empty and damaged it is the same as if they are not in the coach.
When switch is on and engine is running, alternator generates electricity that flows though the isolator to power all coach things. When engine is turned off, nothing will work.
When plugged into shore power the inverter/charger will generate electricity that powers all coach things. When shore power is disconnected, nothing will work
As to the voltage from charging sources:
Alternator has about correct voltage which means it is working ok and likely will not damage any electronics or working batteries.
Battery charger at 17 volts is incorrect and way too high and left alone for a long time, would likely damage house batteries, and start battery bank if connected to house bank.
17 volts could come from charger being at an equalize setting, but likely is from a failed charger. While we don't know why charger is putting out 17 volts, you do have a possible answer to your symptoms so well described.
If you have multiple house batteries, try to run with just one battery at a time.
Try to use a stand alone battery charger connected to house batteries.
Try to temporarily use just a different battery in place of house batteries, but be aware 17 volts if still coming out of charger, will damage a new battery. So maybe better to install a different battery (any size, from car or start bank) and a stand alone charger.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: kb0zke on February 25, 2018, 07:45:35 pm
Joe, if you can get a meter to the output of the charger you might have your answer.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: FourTravelers on February 25, 2018, 10:23:00 pm
Sounds as if there is NO connection to the house batteries. The alternator or the inverter/charger is supplying all the 12Vdc. The charger with no load connected could read high voltage especially if reading with a very high impedance meter. Agree with the above statement....... sounds like a problem with the house batteries or connection between them and the salesman switch. Just a thought...........
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: jcus on February 25, 2018, 10:52:30 pm
Salesman switch does not MAKE electricity, it just connects house battery bank to coach for lights, gen start, water pump, etc. When switch is off nothing will be powered. When switch is on, IF battery is completely dead / empty, nothing will work.
IF house batteries are dead / empty and damaged it is the same as if they are not in the coach.
When switch is on and engine is running, alternator generates electricity that flows though the isolator to power all coach things. When engine is turned off, nothing will work.
When plugged into shore power the inverter/charger will generate electricity that powers all coach things. When shore power is disconnected, nothing will work
As to the voltage from charging sources:
Alternator has about correct voltage which means it is working ok and likely will not damage any electronics or working batteries.
Battery charger at 17 volts is incorrect and way too high and left alone for a long time, would likely damage house batteries, and start battery bank if connected to house bank.
17 volts could come from charger being at an equalize setting, but likely is from a failed charger. While we don't know why charger is putting out 17 volts, you do have a possible answer to your symptoms so well described.
If you have multiple house batteries, try to run with just one battery at a time.
Try to use a stand alone battery charger connected to house batteries.
Try to temporarily use just a different battery in place of house batteries, but be aware 17 volts if still coming out of charger, will damage a new battery. So maybe better to install a different battery (any size, from car or start bank) and a stand alone charger.
Good luck.
B/C, agree with you, basically what we told Joe last week, he needs to get decent charger and check batteries before he does anything else. Are you sure about gen start going through salesman switch? Your mod? Have not seen it on my coaches, gen start is always dedicated line to coach batteries.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Barry & Cindy on February 25, 2018, 11:43:55 pm
Jim, I was generalizing about the salesman switch, and you are correct that it does not power the genset.
Actually years ago, we removed our salesman switch which was mounted on rear-side of step. We learned that the two large salesman switch cables are both sourced on the top of the 12-volt bay-wall breaker panel behind the big large white cover. We disconnected both cables at the breaker panel and put a short jumper across the connections.
We wanted to cut a large hole on step wall for access to the air fitting on the air bag located on the other side of the step wall and found the heavy duty cables and switch were in the way, and with the disconnected switch, we had a clear shot at the air bag. We were changing all 8 air bags and the two front bags were easier to change with our access holes.
Over the last 20 years, we never used our salesman switch and figured we would later put it back in action on the bay wall connection. Also figured there must be some voltage drop on the pair of very long cables, so removing approx. 40 feet of cable, replacing it with 4 inches could benefit us.
A month ago, we put the salesman switch on the main ground house battery to fully disconnect the battery bank when storing our motorhome.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: jcus on February 25, 2018, 11:56:20 pm
Jim, I was generalizing about the salesman switch, and you are correct that it does not power the genset.
Actually years ago, we removed our salesman switch which was mounted on rear-side of step. We learned that the two large salesman switch cables are both sourced on the top of the 12-volt bay-wall breaker panel behind the big large white cover. We disconnected both cables at the breaker panel and put a short jumper across the connections.
We wanted to cut a large hole on step wall for access to the air fitting on the air bag located on the other side of the step wall and found the heavy duty cables and switch were in the way, and with the disconnected switch, we had a clear shot at the air bag. We were changing all 8 air bags and the two front bags were easier to change with our access holes.
Over the last 20 years, we never used our salesman switch and figured we would later put it back in action on the bay wall connection. Also figured there must be some voltage drop on the pair of very long cables, so removing approx. 40 feet of cable, replacing it with 4 inches could benefit us.
A month ago, we put the salesman switch on the main ground house battery to fully disconnect the battery bank when storing our motorhome.
Good Idea, have never use mine, but thinking about voltage drop and resistance, best to to put it next to batteries. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Jack Lewis on February 26, 2018, 02:19:19 am
Before taking out the 12V cutoff at the steps, you might see what actually runs thru that 90 amp breaker. For instance my solar, as most are, is wired directly to the house battery, not thru the 12V panel in the bay. I like being able to leave for a few hours, easily cutting off most of the 12V draw, and not having to run around the rv making sure all the 12V is off, ceiling fans, water pump, closet light, bathroom light, etc. I also have a ground cutoff off on both chassis and house batteries for when I'm away longer and wish to cut everything on that bank off.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: jcus on February 26, 2018, 08:27:31 am
Before taking out the 12V cutoff at the steps, you might see what actually runs thru that 90 amp breaker. For instance my solar, as most are, is wired directly to the house battery, not thru the 12V panel in the bay. I like being able to leave for a few hours, easily cutting off most of the 12V draw, and not having to run around the rv making sure all the 12V is off, ceiling fans, water pump, closet light, bathroom light, etc. I also have a ground cutoff off on both chassis and house batteries for when I'm away longer and wish to cut everything on that bank off.
Thanks Jack, but I have the PMC Intellitec system with a several control buttons around coach that basically turn off all 12 volt loads [except water pump]. I would keep the breaker, just remove the switch and its wiring.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on February 26, 2018, 09:39:34 pm
Thanks Jack, but I have the PMC Intellitec system with a several control buttons around coach that basically turn off all 12 volt loads [except water pump]. I would keep the breaker, just remove the switch and its wiring.
Jim, It's curious that your 2003 does not have the water pump on your Intellitec switch panels. Several of my switch panels (and I've seen other 2002 U320's.....but they may have been customized) have the water pump and water fill valve circuits on the appropriate (kitchen, bath, utility bay, front door) Intellitec stations.
Of course, having an Intellitec station by the entry door makes things even more convenient. For those that don't have an Intelletec System, when leaving the coach for short periods of time, just one (three second) "Master Lights Off" button press and ALL (30) of the Intellitec circuits, power down. The 12 Vdc is removed from all circuits until you once again "press the button for an instant" for an individual circuit, as needed.
We also have the salesman switch, but when in public spaces such as restaurants, we can leave a few manual lights on, making the coach appear occupied, but power down the Intellitec, which minimizes battery drain and risk of water where it isn't wanted.
Our coach has ten of these Intellitec stations, varying with the circuits pertaining to each particular area, or able to switch lots of lights on and off from the underside of the cabinets over the bed. DW detests the scheme because she has to read the switches. I love it because I just push from memory, but also fear it because the stations communicate over twisted wire pairs with computers that are no longer made. One day, a single failure will be very expensive. HTH, Neal
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: jcus on February 26, 2018, 10:15:00 pm
Neal, I do have the water pump button in 5 places, {wet bay, bathroom, toilet, kitchen and by entry door} but the master 12 volt switches [also labeled master lights off], in the bedroom and by the front door, only turns off 12 volt lighting circuits. May be modified, have not seen another coach of my era with intellitec. I do have intellitec buttons for two 1500 watt aqua-hot heating elements, which I really like because I can run both on 30 amps, [no starting surge like a ac would require]. Will keep coach warm down into the 30's without diesel. Am also dreading the day it starts to cause problems, but have read posts on other forums about an upgrade to current PLC modules, and reprograming available for about 3 grand.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 01, 2018, 10:18:53 am
Here is a brief update. Disconnected the charge/inverter and charged batteries and load tested. While showing 12 volts they failed the load test. Have ordered to new 8d gell batteries and will install. I plan to reconnect charger/inverter and measure voltage from charger. If still high i will replace with a new one. Maybe the charger was sending high voltage because batteries were dead.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: jcus on March 01, 2018, 10:33:26 am
Here is a brief update. Disconnected the charge/inverter and charged batteries and load tested. While showing 12 volts they failed the load test. Have ordered to new 8d gell batteries and will install. I plan to reconnect charger/inverter and measure voltage from charger. If still high i will replace with a new one. Maybe the charger was sending high voltage because batteries were dead.
Just remember, anything over about 14.2 volts [max bulk charge voltage for most gel cells] will damage your new batteries.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 01, 2018, 11:58:52 am
Just remember, anything over about 14.2 volts [max bulk charge voltage for most gel cells] will damage your new batteries.
Yup, we've got fresh batteries, here's after dry camping for a few days, then charging. It sits at around 13.4 the rest of the time when hooked up. Our "True Charge 40" indicates full charge @ 13.2/ 13.4
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on March 01, 2018, 01:09:38 pm
Joe Check the startup mode of your inverter/charger. When I purchased my 96 U320, the inverter/charger startup mode had been set to "Equalize" which sent 100 amps to the batteries while tripping the 20 amp breaker in the 120 VAC power panel when the inverter/charger received 120 VAC. This was set using dip switches in the back of the remote control on the OEM inverter/charger in my 1996 U320.
Equalizing new Gel batteries will quickly damage them.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 01, 2018, 01:27:47 pm
Wyatt i believe i will have to remove the panel by the 4 screws and pull it out to see the dip switches. Im not changing anything or using different batteries they will be 8d gell batteries which has always been in there.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 07, 2018, 12:50:14 pm
Well here is current status. Brett, The batteries were dead. Replaced them with AGM 8d from oriellys. Great price $849 including tax and they installed. With that the salesmen switch works and I can start Generator. The voltage at the batteries when engine running 13.3v. Now the bad news. When plugged in I get 17volts. I pulled remote and checked dip switches and equalize was off and it was set for gell batteries. I would like to replace with something easy to install and not expensive. My current model is a Heart 25 charger/inverter. Can it be repaired? Thanks everyone for your help I learn something new every day.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Bill Willett on March 07, 2018, 01:53:59 pm
Reset the dip switches for wet cell and check voltage
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Tim Fiedler on March 07, 2018, 02:11:45 pm
And don't scrimp on inverter charger Victron and Magnum good brands to look at, search past posts, a lot of threads on the topic
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Caflashbob on March 07, 2018, 03:07:22 pm
Eric at bio benefit inverter repair in Costa Mesa, can rebuild heart freedom 25's completely and coats the boards and retightens the many connections internally and replaces the contactors as they pit and reduce the oiutout power to the batteries. $800 flat rate charge.
Newer magnums use stainless bolts to lessen the corrosion in the older units and have a needed BTMS and are sine wave output and have coated boards to help prevent shorts.
The reduced output may match your dual battery setup. Mine was maxed at 70 Amos into three 8g8d's. New magnum is 110 amps in bulk
Call Eric and ask him about the 17 volts after resetting the dip,switch if it continues
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Barry & Cindy on March 07, 2018, 08:29:35 pm
With new batteries and a very old modified sine wave inverter, you are trying too hard to keep your charger alive. Replace it now and just enjoy not thinking about these things anymore. Your Heart 25 that we many of had at one time, has probably already cost you $849. Dozens have replaced the Heart 25 and their write ups are on the Forum and BeamAlarm.com
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: gracerace on March 07, 2018, 08:33:34 pm
Eric at bio benefit inverter repair in Costa Mesa, can rebuild heart freedom 25's completely and coats the boards and retightens the many connections internally and replaces the contactors as they pit and reduce the oiutout power to the batteries. $800 flat rate charge.
Newer magnums use stainless bolts to lessen the corrosion in the older units and have a needed BTMS and are sine wave output and have coated boards to help prevent shorts.
The reduced output may match your dual battery setup. Mine was maxed at 70 Amos into three 8g8d's. New magnum is 110 amps in bulk
Call Eric and ask him about the 17 volts after resetting the dip,switch if it continues
Bob Good info. There is a place in Seattle that fix them. Had a few done. Was very satisfied with their work.
S3 Maritime LLC 2360 W. Commdore Way, Suite 200 Seattle, WA 98199 Ph. 206-420-4932
I might add, figure $150.00 for the ride at least round trip. Them puppies are heavy
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 09, 2018, 10:10:07 am
As some of you have suggested, I am taking mine in to be repaired. A xantrex repair shop in Bradenton claims he knows whats wrong and can fix with same day service. Cost $275.00. Says these old units are well built and when repaired will give me years of good service. I have remove the unit and labeled all the wires reinstall should go pretty easy.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: bdale on March 09, 2018, 10:41:09 am
As some of you have suggested, I am taking mine in to be repaired. A xantrex repair shop in Bradenton claims he knows whats wrong and can fix with same day service. Cost $275.00. Says these old units are well built and when repaired will give me years of good service. I have remove the unit and labeled all the wires reinstall should go pretty easy.
Do whatever you feel is right for you but I have to say that Barry has given very good advice. This should be seen as an opportunity to upgrade from the Heart inverter, not put more money into keeping it alive. While it might be well built, it's still a very outdated system. A modern unit with better battery management features can easily pay for itself in battery longevity. Lower idle current draw and pure sign wave power are additional bonuses. Installation is just as simple as reinstalling the Heart.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: craneman on March 09, 2018, 10:51:08 am
If you are going to use the original Xantrex, don't buy a Cuisinart coffee maker, my old one ate 2 of them on the first day of each. Finally figured out what was going on as my old Mr. Coffee had no problem. With the new pure sine wave I was able to get the Cuisinart that my wife likes. Something about electronics don't like modified sine wave.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Barry & Cindy on March 09, 2018, 02:47:20 pm
Joe, If your broken inverter was true sine wave, the cost of repair could be a good value.
I sense that not only the higher cost for a new charger/inverter, maybe having to modify things for a new device may be preventing your switchover.
We also had to replace our Freedom/25 when it suddenly broke. We are not sure of what CAUSED the Freedom/25 to stop charging correctly. Could it have been a campground power pedestal anomaly or a coach device that caused the problem.
But we are sure of the SYMPTOMS, because at the moment our Freedom/25 made a sound and failed, two high-tech expensive surge protection devices burned up with fire black smoke. We were fortunate that these were enclosed in a steel box that completely contained the burning. It was a good test for our smoke detectors that all sounded off.
My feeling was that since this was all in place for many years, that our Freedom/25 with all its many electronic components were just 'worn out' from heat and demands. Or the modified sine wave was just too much for our devices and they finally gave out.
Every one of our 120-volt devices are designed to be plugged into true-sine wave electrical supply. There are no devices manufactured for modified sine wave, although many will work on modified-sine wave. Those that work, may be stressed and themselves fail prematurely.
We had a friend that had several TV failures he figured were from being powered with modified sine wave.
We also had several wireless remote 120-outlets that would stop working after a while. Factory would replace and finally a tech asked where we were using them, and blurted out they are not to be used on Modified Sine Waves. At that time Camping World was even selling these devices and soon stopped carrying them. A small capacitor would fail after being used for a while.
For sure if you keep your coach you will at some time replace your inverter charger, nothing lasts forever. At that time you may not even find a modified sinewave inverter charger. It is so much more 'fun' replacing parts when there is time to cogitate over choices.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 09, 2018, 03:01:56 pm
Craneman and Barry, you both brought up good thoughts. I actually have used my inverter only a few times. Craneman I don't use a cusinart but I use a kureig and have had no problems. Barry you are correct I am cost driven and ease of installation. I will enquire is this is a modified sine wave and if so can they make a true sinewave. Like I said have only used the inverter a couple of times and noticed no affect on my led TV's. Thanks everyone this forum is the best source of info anywhere.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Caflashbob on March 09, 2018, 03:04:53 pm
As bdale posted the newer units advantages are considerable. The microwaves increased power and quiet operation running on full sine wave was an plus.
Last 20 years of Foretravel production have had a BTMS,
Cannot be made full sine wave as far as I know
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Barry & Cindy on March 10, 2018, 12:17:25 am
Joe, Follow your plan. Great that you are sharing with us. It is the battery charger component that is not working, and likely the inverter part is ok. No modified sine cannot be made sine, but there are many inexpensive sine wave standalone inverters out there. If you decide that sine wave is of value, even if not used very much, a separate inverter can be installed. And your fixed charger will keep your batteries up.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 12, 2018, 06:21:14 pm
Ok, I had the inverter/charger repaired and need a little help. I am using 2 8d agm batteries. Can someone tell me what my dip switches settings should be? They are numbered 1 thru 8. They can be set for Gel or Wet Cells. I'm told AGMs should be set for wet cells. I find the chart in my manual confusing so I need advise from you battery experts. My charger/inverter is a Heart25charger/inverter. Cost of repair was $275.00. I plan to reinstall this Wednesday.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: Jack Lewis on March 12, 2018, 06:44:37 pm
Joeszeidel, Check starting at page 30 for dip switch settings.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 12, 2018, 06:56:59 pm
Jack Thats exactly what I find confusing. I don't understand any of that stuff.
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: jor on March 12, 2018, 09:27:46 pm
Quote
I don't understand any of that stuff.
You don't really need to. You can go with the default settings for all but dip switch numbers 2 and 3. For those, you can set for warm wet cell and you'll be fine.
1-off 2-on 3-off 4-off 5-off 6-off 7-off 8-off
jor
Title: Re: Electrical relations
Post by: joeszeidel on March 13, 2018, 09:46:38 am
Jor thank you for the help, reading the material Jack sent was to confusing for this old brain. Here are some things i have learned. First dont assume that because you are under roof and plugged in that everything is ok. I did not check voltage enough and when my charger failed it burned up two 8d batteries. I will now check voltages more often. Next i learned more about modified and full sign wave inverters. If you use lots of electronics and electrical equipment that has small motors then use a true sign wave inverter. Especillay if you boondock alot. If you are like me who seldom does then a modified will probably be ok. You can also use the generator instead of the inverter for some although that may not be your best choice. Anyway thank you all for this learning experience..