Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: WagonWheels on March 05, 2018, 07:41:07 pm
Title: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: WagonWheels on March 05, 2018, 07:41:07 pm
Anyone out there replaced your house batteries or have observed the installation of new house batteries in a 2003 U320 38xx w/tag or similar motorcoach? I did several searches on the forum without luck. Thus the question. My batteries are shot. Unfortunately the things are buried in a compartment in the back of the joey bed bay. I swear Foretravel designers/engineers installed the batteries and then built the rig around them. This setup requires AGMs or lithium. I'd say watered batteries would be impossible or at the very least terribly inconvenient. Does the joey bed have to be removed? Do installers have some sort of mini-crane gizmo to take out the old batteries and help insert the new batteries into the battery compartment? These 8D's weight ~ 160 lbs each and there are three of them. I'm not going to install the new batteries myself, but need info to pass to Redlands Truck & RV whose task it will be to install them. When I described the situation to the service manager he was not enthused to say the least. We bought the rig from MOT in March 2016. Should have asked them to change out the batteries at time of purchase, but being a newbie (our first motorhome) we didn't. Last summer when it appeared the batteries might be failing I took pictures of the battery serial numbers and contacted MK to break the date code. Turns out they were mfg in 2012. Expensive lesson.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: John44 on March 05, 2018, 07:54:40 pm
Can't help you with your specific problem but if a "RV service place" has to ask you how to put a battery in when they can see the old ones I would move on if possible.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: jcus on March 05, 2018, 07:59:36 pm
If your installer cannot figure out out to remove and replace your batteries, think it is time for you to look for another installer. A young strong guy is required, or an old weak guy with some blocks, maybe a ramp, and a small hyd jack. Think you need to stay with agm or gel. Lithium will probably require some special charger.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Caflashbob on March 05, 2018, 08:00:16 pm
Unless it's an optical illusion your mk batteries look to have been overcharged. Buldged cases from internal pressurization.
Look at your charger settings. Probably set for flooded cells at 14.4 volts max.
Late model Mk gels max at 14.15 volts.
Also turn down the alternator to 13.6 volts max as a compromise versus overcharge everything in warm weather and long drives.,..
Mk gels latest units can have really extended service life's if treated carefully.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: WagonWheels on March 05, 2018, 09:12:10 pm
I'm fairly confident that Redlands Truck & RV can do the job. There will be a learning curve and at $165/hr I want that curve to be as short as possible. If other installers removed the joey bed tray, I could do that and save some time. Or if the joey bed tray wasn't removed, I could pass on that info. RT&RV Internet rating are pretty good and I personally have experience with them. Scoped out and fixed an air system leak last summer, just four months after I had service on the air system at FOT.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: jcus on March 05, 2018, 09:33:13 pm
I'm fairly confident that Redlands Truck & RV can do the job. There will be a learning curve and at $165/hr I want that curve to be as short as possible. If other installers removed the joey bed tray, I could do that and save some time. Or if the joey bed tray wasn't removed, I could pass on that info. RT&RV Internet rating are pretty good and I personally have experience with them. Scoped out and fixed an air system leak last summer, just four months after I had service on the air system at FOT.
It will be easier to remove joey bed first, even easier if you remove the aft rail too. Not complicated, basically a brute strength job. A big pry bar helps to lift batteries up before sliding out. I, [meaning my neighbors 23 old football player son]. swapped them out in about an hour.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Travelin' Man (RIP) on March 05, 2018, 09:54:33 pm
Go to O'Reilly's and get AGM 8DAD batteries and they will change them for you for free. Joey Bed needs removed. If you're near Bonita Springs, Florida I will help. On my droid........... over & out
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Carol & Scott on March 05, 2018, 10:50:35 pm
On our 2002 U320 the batteries were in the same area. I replaced the 2 wet cells with three OReillys. Not too difficult - bunch of grunts and groans and a couple of hours. Take Joey bed out and ramp the batteries up to the basement floor. Then can be pushed into place.
You might take this opportunity to re-anchor the Joey bed with SS through-bolts: use 3"x3" or 4"x4" X .250 or .375 thick SS or Aluminum blank to dissipate the pressure. .250 by 4" SS bolt and nut. Use a bunch of sealant between the blank, the undercarriage skin and the through holes. I think I installed 6 for the Joey bed.
PS - If you don't have a TriMetric, install it now.
You might consider these: GPL-8DL - Lifeline Batteries (http://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-8dl/) - bit more expensive but might be worth a look.
Good luck. :D
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: rbark on March 05, 2018, 11:13:43 pm
David, I did mine myself with the help of a small hyd. Lift from harbor freight and a big, long pry bar. I removed the joey bed and frame. Bottom two come out first then the top one. Install in reverse order. It helps to clean all terminals/fittings before putting new batteries in. Got my Lifeline 8D AGMs from Batterystuff.com. Great service! PM me if you want more details.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on March 06, 2018, 12:09:46 am
You can get six L16 sized 6v batteries in the same footprint as two 8Ds. When you get rid of the upper shelf they are about 60 lbs more weight and have 860 amp hr capacity compared to 8Ds.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: John S on March 06, 2018, 07:23:58 am
Do not lower the charge on the alternator. You will lose one volt going thru the isolator and not keep your batteries fully charged.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Tim Fiedler on March 06, 2018, 09:54:34 am
3 8D's are approx 660 - 750 depending on the battery (220 - 250 AH each x 3?)
Tim Fiedler
Sure Start Soft Start (http://www.gen-pro.biz)
TCER Direct (http://www.tcerdirect.com) generator-gas-prod (http://www.generatorgasproducts.com) 630 240-9139 Gen-Pro
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Caflashbob on March 06, 2018, 12:12:04 pm
My 13.6 voltage adjustment was measured at the batteries themselves. With an isolator you are correct as it's actual output would need to be whatever the particular setup needs to get 13.6 to the batteries. Disadvantage is one bank is higher than maybe needed.
With a auto connect combiner the alternator itself can be adjusted to output the same 13.6 volts and both banks receive the same volts.
All the new coaches are step up this way as far as I know. I can see why.
Especially in dry storage as the small solar we have trips the auto connect feature fine and charges both banks.
As soon as no charge is detected it auto disconnects the banks.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: WagonWheels on March 06, 2018, 01:10:19 pm
Thanks to all for the info and suggestions. Wish I had known about the L16's earlier. I just ordered 3 Lifeline GPL-8DA's (automotive post) (255A ea x 3 = 765A or 382A usable) from Empire Battery in San Bernardino. Total cost is $2100 cash that includes delivery. I prefer the batteries with blade connectors, but my wires have the auto post connectors. Not wanting to incur more expense I'm going with what's already on the coach. I really need a battery monitor that uses a shunt, but installing one with my current set up would be difficult. Of course I could spend a boatload of money and convert the coach to all electric. New refer, new cooktop, new inverter/charger, solar pkg. Then I could pull out the LPG tank providing a nice battery and elec compartment with easy access. Having fun spending my kids inheritance lol.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 06, 2018, 01:24:58 pm
You can get six L16 sized 6v batteries in the same footprint as two 8Ds. When you get rid of the upper shelf they are about 60 lbs more weight and have 860 amp hr capacity compared to 8Ds.
Roger.
They look good. Where have you seen the best price? Conventional or AGM?
Pierce
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Caflashbob on March 06, 2018, 02:05:23 pm
David the lifelines would be my choice other than the mk gels.
These do use the same max 14.2 voltage settings as the oem gels as far as I know because of those designs lower internal resistances
Also charge 20% faster. Used by aircraft and the us military
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on March 06, 2018, 02:14:28 pm
The L16's come flooded or AGM. The flooded ones get used in forklifts. US Battery, Trojan, Reliant all make them as well as Full River.
My Full River batteries came directly from the distributor in Minneapolis and were about $440 with a core and tax. I gave then three dead Yellowtops and they counted as the core for four Full River DC400-6 batteries. The distributor is the one that deals with warranty and these have a seven year warranty when used in a renewable energy installation. They said my batteries installed in a motorhome recharged by solar panels were a renewable energy installation. I made all of my own 3/0 and 4/0 cables.
Metroplex Battery in Dallas has them for under $400. Great if you can pick them us. Buying 4 or 6 might get a break on shipping and make it better. Search Results – Metroplex Battery (https://www.metroplexbattery.com/pages/search-results?q=dc400-6&p=1)
Another option if you have vertical restrictions (like I do on the 2001 with a slide, dr side battery bay) is the DC-335. same footprint, shorter. Six will fit in a cleverly deigned rack on the floor where two 8Ds sit. 1005 amp hr capacity and room for bus bars, fuses, switches, shunts. When my 7 year old lifelines are about done this is likely what I will do. They are lighter weight then the L16s as well.
All measurements are in my coach. Measure yours carefully. FR suggested some space between the top edges of the battery cases. Their engineering folks said in my application (based on typical charge and discharge rates) the space between the batteries was not needed. There is some anyway. Lots of basement floor steel in my coach to support the battery rack. same on the Pass side where the big LP tank was.
Roger
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 06, 2018, 02:27:58 pm
I'm going to stick with "the gal that brought me to the dance": 2 Optima #78 coach, 2 Lifeline AGM house. The PO and the PO before him (Brett) used them and got years out of them. Ours mate with the "Truecharge 40" so I can keep a eye on both banks. A plus is the coach has been weighed with that lash-up, so no tire pressure changes are needed should I have to replace them (gulp!).
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: RvTrvlr on March 06, 2018, 02:29:20 pm
Keep in mind with 6 L16's you should go with the 2v versions. This eliminates balancing and paralleling issues entirely and maximizes capacity.
Thanks to all for the info and suggestions. Wish I had known about the L16's earlier. I just ordered 3 Lifeline GPL-8DA's (automotive post) (255A ea x 3 = 765A or 382A usable) from Empire Battery in San Bernardino. Total cost is $2100 cash that includes delivery. I prefer the batteries with blade connectors, but my wires have the auto post connectors. Not wanting to incur more expense I'm going with what's already on the coach. I really need a battery monitor that uses a shunt, but installing one with my current set up would be difficult. Of course I could spend a boatload of money and convert the coach to all electric. New refer, new cooktop, new inverter/charger, solar pkg. Then I could pull out the LPG tank providing a nice battery and elec compartment with easy access. Having fun spending my kids inheritance lol.
I also wanted to install a shunt type battery monitor, [victron or trimetic] but found lack of room and multiple ground points problematic. I compromised with a Smartgauge. Does not give a lot of information, but seems to be fairly accurate in determining SOC. Smartgauge Battery Monitor | Balmar (http://www.balmar.net/products/smartgauge-battery-monitor/)
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on March 06, 2018, 03:37:32 pm
Quote from: jcus link=msg=306011 date=1520303593 Not complicated, basically a brute strength job. [/quote
X2 If you've got a GV with the 8DL mounted foreward of the curbside front tire, a rolling type floor jack is the ticket.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on March 06, 2018, 07:38:36 pm
In July, I bought 6 AGM - Lifeline -GPL- L16 batteries from "The Battery Guy" in East Dundee IL. I paid $479.99 each with cores. As I remember it was +$35 each without cores. I gave him my 4 - 6v - T45 cores plus a few other cores I had sitting in the garage, good enough he said. I paid cash so he paid the tax. I paid $180 shipping from the Lifeline plant in CA. to Chicago. Total for 6 - L-16 = $3049.94
May pick up 2 to 4 more. I have 4 , 300 watt solar panels, perhaps 1 more to be added.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on March 06, 2018, 08:22:52 pm
Keep in mind with 6 L16's you should go with the 2v versions. This eliminates balancing and paralleling issues entirely and maximizes capacity.
Please explain why you are suggesting this.
6-2 volt batteries need to be wired in series to make 12 volts. How is this better than three pairs of 2-6 volt batteries in series that make 12 volts per pair. Each pair connected to a common bus bar with equal length cables.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Chris m lang on March 06, 2018, 09:38:04 pm
Go to O'Reilly's and get AGM 8DAD batteries and they will change them for you for free. Joey Bed needs removed. If you're near Bonita Springs, Florida I will help. On my droid........... over & out
I did a comparison check --granted I'm no battery expert-- but when I compared the orally 8D to the lifeline there was very little difference in 25a,15a or 8a load rating and at over $200 cheaper-- I figure bu the time they are gone the lithium batteries will be what I go to Just my thought Chris
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: RvTrvlr on March 08, 2018, 06:54:29 pm
6-2 volt batteries need to be wired in series to make 12 volts. How is this better than three pairs of 2-6 volt batteries in series that make 12 volts per pair. Each pair connected to a common bus bar with equal length cables.
I'll start by saying for those who dont know, a typical 12v car battery, no matter what size, 8d or the small battery starting a motorcycle is made up of 6 individual cells that produce 2 volts each. The main difference is the size of each cell which gives you more amp hours. Every 12v battery is 6 cells in series.
By using 6x 2v batteries, you eliminate all the complexity of bus bars, equal length wiring and only have simple, short interconnects. You also eliminate any chance of the series-parallel arrangement resulting in unbalanced charging or discharge, which always happens despite your best efforts to make everything equal.
A series arrangement is preferable to a series-parallel setup. Of course this only applies to an installation of six new L16's. if you only have room for four, you need the 6v version. If you want any number other than 6,12,18... you need the 6v version. When I need new house batteries a string of 6x2v is my main choice, unless I go with Lithium. But that introduces a whole new realm of issues.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: jcus on March 08, 2018, 07:06:12 pm
I'll start by saying for those who dont know, a typical 12v car battery, no matter what size, 8d or the small battery starting a motorcycle is made up of 6 individual cells that produce 2 volts each. The main difference is the size of each cell which gives you more amp hours. Every 12v battery is 6 cells in series.
By using 6x 2v batteries, you eliminate all the complexity of bus bars, equal length wiring and only have simple, short interconnects. You also eliminate any chance of the series-parallel arrangement resulting in unbalanced charging or discharge, which always happens despite your best efforts to make everything equal.
A series arrangement is preferable to a series-parallel setup. Of course this only applies to an installation of six new L16's. if you only have room for four, you need the 6v version. If you want any number other than 6,12,18... you need the 6v version. When I need new house batteries a string of 6x2v is my main choice, unless I go with Lithium. But that introduces a whole new realm of issues.
Excellent idea. Every wire between batteries can be exactly the same length. Never looked at it that way.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 08, 2018, 07:35:48 pm
The only possible argument I can think of is if one of the 2 volt batteries should fail down the road, you can't just pull it out as you will no longer have 12V but 10V. If you use 6 volt batteries and one fails, you can remove it along with one other and still have 12V only having lost one third of the house capacity.
We have six 12V AGMs and none have failed in 8 plus years. The wiring is probably not the perfect to take advantage of each one but they work well. Keeping fingers crossed.
Pierce
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on March 08, 2018, 07:44:12 pm
I sort of see why this might be OK but even with perfectly matched (resistance, wire length plus two lug connections) for all 5 interconnect cables you can still have variation in internal resistance in each battery. You are going to put 12 v (nominal) across all six in series. It seems more problematic to me than having 3 pairs of 6v batteries where interconnect cables are less critical and each of the three pair sees an equal 12v (nominal) charge potential.
Weight will be about the same, cost about the same. One bad battery in 6-2v and you are dead in the water. One bad battery in three pairs of 2-6v and you just loose some capacity.
I will have to think about this a bit but the risk aversion in me leans toward the 6v solution. In my coach I did four L16 6v on the Passengers side for 830 amp hr capacity. Less space used than 2 8Ds, less weight, more capacity than three 8Ds.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Jan & Richard on March 08, 2018, 11:03:57 pm
I installed six Lifeline GPL-4CT-2volt batteries over eight years ago and have been thoroughly pleased with them. They were a lot easier to handle than the 3 old 8D's. The six batteries equate to one very large 12 volt battery.
Richard
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: jcus on March 09, 2018, 01:06:25 am
I like the idea of 2 volt batteries, remote teleco stations used them for years. You can find the AGM,s up to 1200 amphours. Super quality Rolls ,Surette, Lifeline. They had a 20 year life in teleco standby systems, so might be some 'gently used" ones out there. I usually buy good quality batteries and have seen capacity fall off, but never had one whole cell go bad, worth a chance.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: DavidS on March 09, 2018, 01:09:46 pm
Something I found online .. price is good and has a built in BMS
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: folivier on March 09, 2018, 01:23:40 pm
Good find and good price unfortunately the specs don't appear to be correct. 11.1V ? max charge voltage 12.5 ? Only 1 year warranty? If it were a LiFePO4 battery chemistry that would be a great price, almost 1/2 of Battle Born or other drop-in batteries. But don't appear to be available in the good ole' US of A.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: DavidS on March 09, 2018, 02:08:16 pm
Good find and good price unfortunately the specs don't appear to be correct. 11.1V ? max charge voltage 12.5 ? Only 1 year warranty? If it were a LiFePO4 battery chemistry that would be a great price, almost 1/2 of Battle Born or other drop-in batteries. But don't appear to be available in the good ole' US of A.
GASAX ENERGY LI-FE-PO4 BATTERIES
I put in my address and it is free shipping
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: jcus on March 09, 2018, 03:24:59 pm
Think this one would give proper voltage, has BMS, but still seems to need a charger.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Tim Fiedler on March 09, 2018, 05:28:25 pm
8 in stock , condition used
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on March 09, 2018, 08:28:29 pm
I asked about charging these batteries mentioned in #33, here is what they said ...
"Hi, thanks for contacting us. there are various way to charge this battery. 1) The battery charger (it is included 10A) 2) Solar panels/wind turbines 3) the alternator of the motor You should check the charging voltage, that is 14.0V-14.8V.
If you charge with the alternator, this is not the appropriate battery, it has a low discharge current. This battery generally is charged with solar panels or the charger. It is for standalone application.
Contact us for any information! We offer now the best price, free-shipping duty-free-
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: RvTrvlr on March 09, 2018, 10:04:28 pm
At the prices they are charging, it could be a great product but I would NEVER drop that kind of coin when a Battle Born lithium pack is similarly priced with a known history, online user reviews and a reputable company backing things up.
That answer you got is clearly bad english from a chinese company rep, suspiciously short on relevant tech specs and I just don't trust anything coming out of china to be accurately described, well built or for the company to stand behind it when the communication is so bad. If it was much cheaper, I might try, but for that price, Battle Born wins.
Ive been looking for a wrecked Tesla, Fiat 500E, Smart ED or as a last resort, Nissan Leaf to use the pack for a lithium house bank. Could probably sell the rest of the car parts to make it free to boot. It wont happen anytime soon as my 8D's have at least a few more years of good life, but it'll happen at some point.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Tim Fiedler on March 10, 2018, 10:35:08 am
Shows Qty 8 on hand and condition "used"
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Sven and Kristi on March 10, 2018, 11:18:40 pm
A motorcycle lift from Harbor Freight (less than $100), might do the job. I used them to lift the radiator into place and is very maneuverable. Referring to the attached photo, the long handle is not used for cranking (only maneuvering and pulling), so can be removed before putting into the compartment. It will easily handle the weight and would be easier to push into place. I'm not familiar with the floor mounted obstacles (frame), but you could decide if this is practical.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: stump on March 11, 2018, 06:29:54 am
A motorcycle lift from Harbor Freight (less than $100), might do the job. I used them to lift the radiator into place and is very maneuverable. Referring to the attached photo, the long handle is not used for cranking (only maneuvering and pulling), so can be removed before putting into the compartment. It will easily handle the weight and would be easier to push into place. I'm not familiar with the floor mounted obstacles (frame), but you could decide if this is practical.
That's exactly what I used to put mine in the other day.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on March 11, 2018, 12:08:07 pm
Keep in mind with 6 L16's you should go with the 2v versions. This eliminates balancing and paralleling issues entirely and maximizes capacity.
Here is what Lifeline says about a string of 2 volt batteries. "As long as the total voltage and capacity of the bank is equivalent, it doesn't make a lot of difference which voltage is selected for the building block. To minimize the number of parallel connections in higher capacity banks, it is sometimes preferable to use 2V or 6V batteries instead of 12V batteries. However, having just one string of 2V or 6V batteries may not be the best choice because a single point failure in that string would take down the entire bank."
Roger
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: Tom & Lynda on March 11, 2018, 04:34:49 pm
Just purchased the Harbor Freight motorcycle lift for $69.99 coupon code 85911545 good till the end of the month. O'Reilly batteries on order.
Title: Re: Replacing Coach Batteries
Post by: craneman on March 11, 2018, 04:53:44 pm
Great for removing the fuel tank to replace fuel lines also.