Well I was driving my coach home from Indiana on Friday, after picking it up from the fantastic interior redo, with a big smile on my face, when all of a sudden I felt what was like a tire blow out on my truck (which I was towing), I got out to inspect and saw a trail of anti freeze on the ground. Long story short a freeze plug somehow came out and I lost all anti freeze. No alarms came on and of course I don't keep my eyes glued to my gauges. Just in the matter of moments it appears that I destroyed the lower end of my engine, not sure until I get it towed back to Florida on Tuesday, but it looks like a new engine will be the fix. Looks like about 25 K or more. I would have your freeze plugs checked with all of these older engines.
Wow, I had a low coolant light that sends a stop engine light in my last Foretravel.
Why don't you put a freeze plug in it and drive it home?
If I do I either didn't see it or it did not come on.
The engine is coming apart on the bottom end.
If indeed you do need a overhaul the price for all the parts I would rough estimate at 5K give or take.Assume you have a 8.3?
Would find a good shop that can diagnose it first.If the crankshaft is no good you may be better off getting a long block
installed.Keep us posted.
I have the best shop in Clearwater, they will check it out this week.
And here is a good reminder to us all to periodically check the acidity level of our antifreeze. Simple litmus strips could tell you the antifreeze has deteriorated to the point that it is destroying freeze plugs AND radiators.
For one, I sure intend to check the antifreeze in our vehicles!!
I have the best shop in Clearwater, they will check it out this week.
Great advice!
Sorry to hear of your trouble, Rick. "Engine Failure" is one of the LAST things any of us ever want to experience.
Trying to understand the progression of failure here. Driving at highway speed, freeze plug blows out, what happens? My guess:
1. Big cloud of liquid and vapor blows out behind the coach. If not watching the mirrors could it be missed?
2. Engine temps start to rise. What would the dash engine temp gauge show with no coolant circulating?
3. Oil temp would rapidly increase. At what temp does the oil stop protecting the rotating parts?
4. Oil pressure would drop. Do all coaches have a "Low Oil Pressure" warning light?
5. Power would start to drop off, due to loss of oil lubrication/pressure. Would this be gradual, and noticeable?
6. Rotating assemblies would start to seize up. What would fail first...pistons and rods?...camshaft?...crank shaft?...
7. Catastrophic destruction.
Any other members with similar personal experience to share? Truck drivers? Race car drivers?
Is there any way to "check" freeze plugs, other than totally removing them and replacing with new parts?
It happened so quickly, I did not notice anything until I felt the engine shudder and by then it was too late. Like I said earlier I thought that I had blown a tire on my tow vehicle, and I was not paying attention to my dash. I don't stare at my gauges, but just check them periodically as I drive.
As of this moment I don't know how to check freeze plugs but I guaranty you that I will in the future!
I can only speak from my experience, lost a hose on my C 15 cat, and the cab filled with steam and blocked my view, by time I got it shut down and stopped I lost 10 gallons of antifreeze.
Stop engine lite flashed but I was more concerned about seeing where I was going .
So my first thought on Rick's deal would have seen steamin the side mirrors and temps going up pretty fast.
Sorry for your problems Rick good luck.
The last thing to fail on overheating would be the lower end. Pistons fail first, valves tulip, (racing people will know that term) heads and blocks crack then the bottom end starts failing. I don't know what you are hearing or seeing to make you think the bottom end has failed. After re-reading the part about you thinking you had a blow-out, my opinion is you had a failure that caused the coolant leak, not the coolant leak causing the failure. Time will tell.
I feel for you, it is a horrible feeling to see ourselves in your position.
Nice to say that you would see a gauge or steam in the mirror but you probably would not, especially at night. Just like a flat tire on the toad. I drove about 15 minutes with a flat before a trucker gave me a warning. With an overheat this bad it can crack heads, warp the block and basically destroy the engine. Rods will turn blue on the big end and then may fail entirely. Yes, I would be looking at another engine. Probably a one in twenty chance of noticing it. Does not have to be a freeze plug. Lots of other cooling system failures will do the same thing. Same with an oil line failure with resulting pressure loss. The engine will keep running until it has some kind of failure.
We lost a hydraulic belt twice on our U300 and didn't see the problem until the DDEC (Detroit Diesel Electronic Control) went to half power for 30 seconds and shut down. Lucky!!! Some people have even used the override switch repeatedly and managed to ruin an engine.
Other electronic engines may have a emergency shutdown like this. If you don't, you should have a sensor with an audible as well as visible alarm for your mechanical engine.
GVs have a terrible warning light problem with the steering wheel exactly in the way of the top row of lights. I can move the wheel but don't like it in this position. Possible reflective tape solution right above the lights.
Years ago, I was in a 100 lap main event at Saugus Speedway. I had been following Jimmy Insolo for a couple of laps and had already lapped him several times. Jimmy had been a previous star of West Coast racing and had done well at Riverside not long before. Anyway, he was just smoking a bit, the kind you can smell when following someone. I remember I was about 200 feet back going into turn 1 when he put a rod through the pan/side of the block. He spun, stopped sideways and no matter how I turned the wheel or braked, he got closer and closer in slow motion until I hit him in the drivers door with him watching me the whole time. Parts were coming down off the cars for what seemed like minutes. I thought I had killed him and was never so happy as when he moved in his seat. I can see this exactly as if it happened yesterday.
Pierce
On a few of the endurance racing cars , I add a low pressure switch to the coolant system. It is simply a 3psi oil pressure switch . It stays on until the temp /pressure comes up .
Diagnosis will be done this week and that will obviously determine the course of action I will take. My mind is setting me up psychologically for a total engine failure, which if that is true I will buy a re-man from Cummins as these 8.3 mech. are no longer being manufactured.
Freeze plugs usually start seeping first,depending where the coolant temp sensor is and how fast the coolant came out it's
possible the sensor itself never got too hot.Once the level gets below the sensor even the steam may not get it hot enough as it's
a vapor.
Did anyone service the coolant filter and leave the shutoff valve closed?
Thanks Andy, but it is only an engine failure as my wife reminded me, not a serious health issue to deal with, so I am thankful.
No, I had driven the coach from Elkhart to Nashville on Friday so 450 miles of driving when it happened. Cummins of Nashville found the freeze plug missing and said that it probably was rusting away but that was just there guess without looking deeper at that time. Cummins tech said that after we started it back up at the service center, he said that it sounded as though the engine had come apart in the block.
Sorry to hear of your "episode", Rick. What make is that engine and do you have the mileage? We did have a forum member who had his engine go south and had it rebuilt in the coach. Funny how a little $5.00 item can cause such problems! Luck, ^.^d
1998 8.3 mechanical 325 H.P. with about 150 k on it
Exactly! No fire, earthquake, mechanical failure is even one percent of the seriousness of a health problem. And don't blame yourself for not being aware of the problem. Only luck could have seen it.
Pierce
Might wanna go with brass;
Freeze Plug Size Chart – freezeplugfactory.com (http://freezeplugfactory.com/expansion-plug-size-chart/)
Mike, your low pressure normally-closed switch is brilliant and a worthwhile add. Thanks, Barry
Oh man Rick that really sucks! And after doing all the other work. Hope it works out.
The original owner of my first coach, a 92 Barth, burned up 2 motors and replaced them..
Unfortunately it happens.
Best of Luck with it. Bright side is you'll have a new engine. Keep us posted.
Cheers Ric 8)
Looks like this might be your chance to put a bit more giddy-up in your rig. Modern Cummins L9 engines are up to 450hp and 1250 lb-ft of torque and only weigh about 300 lbs. more than the C8.3. According to everything I've read, they use the Allison 3000 series transmission with them as well. Cummins ISL Engines For Sale | MyLittleSalesman.com (https://www.mylittlesalesman.com/find/cummins-isl-engines-i4c235f575m165026)
Let's make these lemons into some lemonade. You might one day look back at your blown engine as the best thing that could have happened as you effortlessly pass everyone in the mountains with your powerful new engine.
Wow sorry about your bad luck with your engine
I doubt it's the lower end. Catastrophic losses of coolant most times are not indicated by the coolant temperature gauge.
I must say, you sure got lucky with that wife
When I was on the FD, responding to a "motorcycle down", I heard my paramedic as he was cutting off the rider's leathers: "Dude, the good news is that you are going to get new leathers!" Not much consolation, but if you are having to change out the engine, you might consider the option of moving up to ISL, if that is possible.
I can't fault you for not watching the gauges - I always found them difficult to read, presuming they were accurate and gave instant read outs. I am hoping that my Silver Leaf with its audible alarm and very readable readouts will help me avoid these incidents.
Rick- sorry to hear about your problem but really glad you got off the road safe.
We can always replace stuff, but not people. Your wife is so right.
Hope you get it back together and we see you down the road............... ^.^d
Sorry to hear your misfortune Rick. I hope the recovery/fix will be quick, easy and inexpensive.
It could have happened to the most neurotic (I guilty) person, who does not listen to the radio for more than 10 min at a time but listens and scans for all the gauges and information at all times. Sometimes I think about selling our beloved GV just because how I drive it as if I am a F15 fighter pilot looking to not get hit in air combat dog fight by F-22 Raptor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7MwfcjCa0)
I fly a lot too and scan all the time but with the engine all the way back, even if you scan all the time, it's easy, really easy to miss a gauge reading and when you dump your coolant overboard, you only have a couple minutes at the most. I've missed three so far all having to do with the hydraulic fans for the radiator. Remote sensors can save your bacon. Saved mine.
All Foretravels have a bunch of extra wires leading from the back to the front up by the driver so you can bring up any oil and water sensors to light up and give an audible alarm. Cheap insurance, especially if you have a mechanical engine without the failsafe ECUs some of us have.
Pierce
How about a remote camera positioned to are the vitles like belts and hoses.just thinking out loud.?
I have our backup camera on all the time, but, again, my eyes are outside most of the time, so I may or may not see a cloud of steam. When I did have a heat problem a couple of years ago I did see the temp gauge heading up and had time to pull over and shut down before the computer shut me down.
We frequently hear that we have "million-mile" engines. Yes, the over-the-road trucks DO run these engines for a million miles - but they do it in a few years. When we lost our engine last year we had only about 165,000 miles on it, but that was since 1993. That's less than 7,000 miles per year. At that rate it would take more than 142 years to get to a million miles. I don't think I'll live that long.
Did you drop a new engine in?
Good idea. If it get cloudy and hard to see, you've got trouble. :D With belts, you've got to have a least one spare as the old belt is probably a couple of miles behind and with nothing to compare with... The camera could also be used along with a couple of mechanical gauges to check fuel pressures in and out of the filters/lift pump. We have one gauge on the primary filter and then on the output of the secondary filter so we can see the actual pressure while under full load.
When our hydraulic fan hose let go and coated everything with oil including the toad, I used a gallon of degreaser and it still took a couple of times to get everything clean.
Pierce
Rick, sorry to hear about your engine. I had an air filter failure that "dusted" my engine. Total in frame rebuild. The block, the crank, the oil pan and the valve cover were the only parts reused. New everything on and in the engine, new CAC, new compressor even a new ECM. Painful but we have a 17 year old coach with a 22K mile motor.
When it is all done you will have a beautiful interior and a new motor. Time to hit the road.
Rick, we had an inframe overhaul done last year in January and February. You can do a search on the forum to find out the whole story.
I spoke with a friend of mine who works for Cummins motor home division, his recommendation was just stay with the original engine, he said that an electrical engine would be a nightmare of rewiring. so I asked about the L- 10, and he said it was too heavy, 300 lbs more, that the transmission would not stand up to it, and the cooling system was too small......Soooo with that said I will stick with the girl that brung me to the dance.
What would I look under, I tried in frame overhaul ,and engine rebuild.
Click on his avatar and go through his posts
Rick, I am not familiar with your engine, but the in frame was on a Detroit with replaceable liners. You have to wait and find out just what is damaged on the engine to make choices.
I would put a freeze plug in it. Fill with water and see if it will run. If it dosnt your out 6 bucks for, freeze plug and 20 gallons tap water. Those are tough tough engines. I just think you are jumping to worst case scenero,jmo....good luck with it.
I agree. Put a freeze plug in it. Hope for the best.
Easier yet,take the 4 bolts off the crankshaft pulley and uncover bigger bolts,from there you can use a 1/2 inch breaker bar and
socket and turn the engine over,you'll know if it's easy to turn or locked up,also while your there take the belt off and turn the water pump.Another check would be to remove the air intake piping and look at/spin the turbo,if the engine cratered something probably got to the turbo and destroyed the fins on the intake.
Here you go (David's rebuild):
More coach bucks (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=29999.0)
Its easy to enough to drop the pan. From there the rods, mains, and cam/lifters can be inspected. I'm sure Ricks diesel man will look at that first. Butttt if it ran until he noticed a lack of power it likely be toast
You said you heard a noise and when you got stopped the was a trail of coolant behind you. It might be that the noise you heard was
the frost plug blowing out as it wasn't out too long as you had coolant behind you. If that was the case your engine might be fine.
As someone suggested put a new frost plug in and fill it with water. If you shut your engine off and it didn't sieze it's probably fine.
When you over heat an engine it's the top end that goes not the bottom end. Another thought someone said to turn it over by hand
or use the starter and if it is free it's probably good. I hope I'm right and if it's fine don't forget to put antifreeze back in.
You said you heard a noise and when you got stopped the was a trail of coolant behind you. It might be that the noise you heard was
the frost plug blowing out as it wasn't out too long as you had coolant behind you. If that was the case your engine might be fine.
As someone suggested put a new frost plug in and fill it with water. If you shut your engine off and it didn't sieze it's probably fine.
When you over heat an engine it's the top end that goes not the bottom end. Another thought someone said to turn it over by hand
or use the starter and if it is free it's probably good. I hope I'm right and if it's fine don't forget to put antifreeze back in.
What is the process to install a new freeze plug? Need to clean out the edges, how to press in, etc?
Clean the hole, find a socket that just fits inside the freeze plug drive it in. I use never seize instead of silicone, most use silicone. If it is in a difficult location there are flexible drivers, I don't know where mine went. They also sell expandable plugs made out of brass and rubber ones like thermos stoppers with a bolt in the middle.
Rick
Who is the "best shop in clearwater?" Always looking for a good reference.
Does your coach get towed south or a ride on a lowboy?
I put the freeze plugs in the freezer overnight and the next day have everything cleaned and laying there ready to go. Get the freeze plug out of the freezer and go directly out and drive it in.
That's how I do bearing races and also warm up where they go.
Good, with all the fun your having, I did not want Bubba's Towing to just pull the driveshaft!
Insurance company paying?
If so.........who is it?
I,m sorry i was wrong they pulled the axles and towed it to FL. Triple a paid for part of the tow and I paid $1900 to get it back to Clearwater FL.
Well it looks as though I am going to drop in a complete new engine (reman) while I am at it I probably will replace the radiator if there is any thing at all wrong with it. Also I will redo all of the insulation in the engine compartment. A new (reman) engine is $12600 with a two year parts and labor guarantee on the engine. Labor will be about 30 to 40 hrs. give or take.
Pricey, but at least the axles were pulled and the oil sealers were installed. Keep in touch, we're interested. ^.^d
Sorry for you issue. Would you post what they determine actually caused the engine failure when they find out?
Yes, it would be good to know exactly what caused the damage. Internal component failure causing a block failure with coolant loss or a freeze plug failure with the damage done because of overheating? The cause might give us a clue of what to look for.
And yes, I think we are all bummed for what happened to you. Very bummed.
Pierce
Thanks for caring, and I will let you all know as i find out myself.
Rick....Ask the seller of the reman motor about the "core charge" Generally if a core is bad ie:"cracked" block they may do a charge back.
(Sold many remans (automotive) in the last 40 years.
Good Luck
Hans
Is that the 500 hp engine you were talking about?
$2500 core charge ....Cracked block will cost $1,250, & a bad crank is worth $1,250. They do a workaround when they get the core back, if there are no visible cracks and the crank will still turn, I will get my core charge back. As far as we can tell there are no visible cracks and the engine will run, but a make a lot of noise, also there is water in the oil.
I wish it were that easy.
If you are changing out the radiator do the transmission cooler as well.
Often the shop will pay for the tow if the bill estimate is substantial.
Freeze plugs.. huh. Thanks for the warning. When we lost a hydraulic hose which was an unbelievable mess it covered the rear view camera in an oil film and blurred the vision. This is an easy thing to look for. Our oil didn't touch exhaust components, but just simply sprayed out at high pressure all over the cold side of the engine area.
I'm still trying to clean that up.
I'd imagine routinely checking your coolant level could be good. For instance we've had a substantial pickup in coolant loss and it looks like it's from a silicone coupler but worth hunting further!
If the whole freeze plug came out it was probably from an overpressure event, maybe caused by some other failure. My 71 Ford pickup has the originals. Could have been incorrectly installed at the factory, doubtful though.
Best to replace the air cleaner after that. I learned that lesson on my previous coach when a hydraulic line blew.
I wonder how cold it got while the coach was in Indiana? The main thing a freeze plug is for it to pop out if it freezes isn't it?
These so call freeze plug were not designed to save the block but it for casing of the block, comment below is borrowed from the internet.
"The term Freeze plug is slang, the name of the press in block plugs is actually core plug. It is mistakenly thought that the purpose of these plugs is to be pushed out and save the block from cracking if the engine has water in it and it happens to freeze. This is nothing more than an urban legend or an old wives tale. The purpose of the plugs is to fill the holes that were made during the casting process, so the foundry could remove the core sand from the coolant passages. Saving the block from cracking in case of a freeze was never the manufacturer's intent for these plugs"
You beat me to it Willie!
Frequently, the block is then tapped with the core plug screwed in. They usually have a big recessed hex plug so they can be removed. Probably a buck more expensive but a nicer way of doing it.
Pierce
Haven't seen that one, corrosion would make it a PITA to deal with trying to get a good seal. I don't have taps that big.
They have a gasket on the back side. Here is a 38mm plug. Takes a 22mm socket to remove. Mercedes makes a block heater to thread in the place of the plug. I used to remove the plugs before the block went into the hot tank. Tough to break loose.
I think Detroits and CATs use threaded core plugs. 18mm if my memory is correct.
Pierce
And if you are really interested (or AR) and have the engine out, here is what some do to install threaded core plugs.
Pierce
Back in the day, I had a Ford Boss 302 engine that the freeze plugs were all tapped and fitted with screw in plugs.
Not made to take out ,but to NOT fall out.
Already done but not right away. A good message for those dealing with this right away. My old filter was in good shape. Always make sure to get a decent filter that has the metal wiring on the inside lest you end up like Technomadia getting a new engine rebuild because of a failed filter running in the wrong direction.
Hey Rick, how's the motor coming along?
Well if everything happens right, the coach should be up and running tomorrow, and by Wednesday I will be driving over to Ft Lauderdale to begin the wrap. I will keep you guys posted.
Was there ever any determination as to what destroyed the engine?
No probably will never know. When I send the core back, they will just put in in back with all of the others that they have until they need it. I had to pay a $2500 core charge of which I would have gotten back , had the block not cracked, so I will only get get back half now.
Is there a 'break-in' (no pun intended) procedure for that engine? That engine should outlive most of us! ^.^d