On the way home this afternoon from resolving the air level question I noticed an unrelated momentary engine hesitation. Thought I heard the warning bell and a flash of the check engine light. Happened a few more times so I pulled over and checked codes in VMSPC. See attached...2 versions of Fuel Delivery Pressure fault codes.
Quick google pointed to fuel lift pump and/or fuel filters. Close to home so made it OK with the event only occurring at highway speeds. Didn't notice it around town speeds.
Then it occurred to me that when I last checked the oil a few weeks ago I noticed a very light spatter of something around the engine bay. I had took the time to clean it and didn't think much of it other than to think I'd know something was up if it happened again.
Well, after getting home I pulled the hatch up and again a very light spatter. See pics. Hard to imagine its fuel filters if the spatter is related.
Lifetime pump? Back to Cummins in Tampa? What kind of $ potentially.
We're 10:days out from pulling out fo 6 months so want to get these things resolved. Just need a few ew coach bucks left of fuel 👍.
Thanks
Randy- I had the same codes. First I changed both fuel filters. My lift pump had already been replaced so I was not concerned about that. After a while on the road the hesitations got worse, check engine light came on but didn't stay on, etc. I had my fuel lines replaced a few years ago and realized that this was above my skill level ( although I had an idea) and I scheduled an appointment with Cummins Coach Care in Avondale , Az ( just outside of Phoenix). They took it in, diagnosed that part of my CAPS fuel pump, the accumulator part was bad- they had the part in stock and it was an all day job the next day to take things apart. put it back together, test etc. Everything is working great since then ( we are full timers) and my total bill was about $2700 with my Cummins Power Club discount. This is a lot less than $6,000 to replace the whole CAPS pump which was not needed.
You have the same engine I do so I share my experience in the hope that it will help you in your diagnosis and repair of your issue.
Start with the simple things first- fuel filter change, then lift pump, last thing is diagnosis of CAPS pump.
Best of luck and hope to cya down the road............... ^.^d
Some info for everyone out there. I talked to a really experienced tech at Cummins Jacksonville. He said they have never replaced an entire caps pump. He said if anyone ever says the entire pump needs replacing you need to leave. The pump is made up of many components (I think 6) and they are replaced individually when they fail.
Mark
Well wish I had found one of those Cummins dealers 3 years ago that would replace pieces of the CAPS pump. Chattanooga Tn, Nashville Tn, and Birmingham Al would only replace the complete pump. Ended up having a Freightliner dealer do the work as none of the aforementioned Cummins folks had any interest in working on a motor home. Maybe it was just my charming personality.
Nope best just replace the whole engine is better from the dealer standpoint. That way it's not there problem.
Years ago wanted a "cummins insite computer" printout on my engine codes, hours etc. Called Cummins in Houston and asked what it cost for the printout on a ISM. They said $250. Went up and they plugged in their computer to my ecm port under the dash and downloaded the info and printed it, and gave it to me. When I went to pay, service manager said it would be $450. I asked why, and he said "it is more difficult to do to a motorhome than a truck". Needless to say I was not happy, they finally agree on $250, but they said next time it would be $450.
Maybe my personality too, but have had little faith in Cummins Service since then.
To add to my last post all said no parts available, as well as my diesel pump shop in Orlando complete pumps only, but that was 3 years ago.
Determine what the splatter is,if it's fuel you may just have a loose fuel filter,open the engine compartment and start the engine
and have someone give it a high idle and see if you can see where the splatter is coming from.
Not sure how long this current trip was Randy but you need to check oil and look over the engine more then every few weeks,
some of us check things like that every day while on the road.
Interesting what Ted & Karen said on Cpas pump as I have had many of those "Fuel issue" blips on my VMSpc this last trip south.
I have the ISC 350 (with Banks) so maybe the same problem with the Accumulator??
Rocky Mntn Cummins in Avondale is same place I asked to be towed too from Q a few years ago when I had the loss of power issue for a week. Good people to work with and they are well used to M Homes there.
JohnH
OK
I give
VMSPC ???
CAPS PUMP ??
I feel so ignorant. Where do I find out what these are ? Inquiring minds want to know.....
GleamB, CAPS pump is the injector pump on an ISC Cummins, your M11 is a different system. VMspec is an engine monitoring system program from Silverleaf electronics, way more reliable than the dash gauges.
Appearently just ask Ben Dover with Cummins.
Ben Dover is everywhere.............not just Cummins!
Sounds like a start to a VERY BAD movie!!
With the small amount of diesel seen in the photos, I would try and isolate where it's coming from. Could be a fuel hose with a small leak letting air in and diesel out at times. Yes, nail it down before heading out but it's probably not the end of the world either.
Retirees and their motorhomes are great targets for shops. It's not like a trucking company with other trucks to use while one is in the shop.
Pierce
Looked carefully and both the driver and passenger side for signs of fluid. I could see nothing on the passenger side from either above or below and this is where I thought I had read that the caps injection pump is located, somewhere near the secondary fuel filter. Nothing wet but I could see in that area.
On the driver side, behind the alternator there were areas that indicated some type of fluid as shown in the attached pictures. I've taken one both from above and below in that location. Not sure what the culprit could be in the stereo so I offer this additional info if anyone can decipher what might be going on.
Thanks
Andy,
Code could indicate a fuel leak but could be another problem along with low fuel pressure. Could also be oil from the dipstick or a tiny oil line leak. Impossible to tell from the photos. Power steering or hydraulic pump/motor seeping? Even a gasket. Only thing I can suggest is to use a $1 spray bottle filled with a degreasing liquid. Spray area and wipe off and then look after a few miles. Lots of air movement means it could come from a foot or so away.
Pierce
Looking at the 2nd picture it almost looks like 2 bolts that are hanging down towards the middle of the picture are loose,if looks
like the flat washers are not all the way tight,anybody else spot that?,may just be how it looks.
John and Pierce
Good suggestions. I'll take a look.
What is the component John refers to with the possible loose bolts? Right behind alternator.
It's near the alternator in the second picture right above the big black rubber elbow,in the picture the bolt is hanging down and the
flatwasher looks loose.
Sorry, I understand the piece you're referring to but what is that component?
Randy,
The perspective is kind of hard to make out, but is that not the upper exhaust manifold bolt for cylinder #1? Open the bed and look from the driver's side.
If so, look carefully for a cracked exhaust manifold and/or leak (black soot) between head and exhaust manifold. It was checked when you bought it and no problem, but that IS an issue with the Cummins engines.
Will do Brett. I know P.O. replaced it fairly soon before purchase. Can't get away just now...Talladega finish.
I think John is referring to what looks to be a oil pan bolt.
Ya perspective is a "mother bear".
I am not seeing the oil pan at all.
In Reply #15, first picture is from below, but ABOVE the pan.
Picture #2 is from above showing what I think is the thermostat housing/outlet pipe and exhaust manifold.
Were I younger, I would stand on my head to see a "different perspective".
I think that Chase E. is gonna be a force to be reckoned with in a few more races....
Manifold bolts are in upper part of picture and do not appear loose to me. They were properly torqued to 32 ft/lbs when manifold was replaced last year.
Here's a few more pics to help ID the area where I see evidence of fluid. Driver side, just behind and slightly below alternator and just in front and below turbo.
Bolts not loose...must be optics in earlier pic John questioned.
After a PM from John, the picture we are talking about may show the "illusion" of two issues: The upper one would be the exhaust manifold bolt, the lower one may be an oil cooler bolt.
Again, very difficult to tell by remote.
Thanks guys. Don't expect a diagnosis by photo. Will try and get into Cummins Tampa (power club) or a local diesel mechanic recommended by a fireman at the local fire station.
What does the mist smell like? Run a clean rag or paper towel over the mist especially an area previously cleaned.. smell like diesel? or oil.. good for started if you can tell.. clean the area where you can get a good sample and after running a few miles you get out and check wit ha clean rag or so.. then you might be able to tell what it is.
Fuel
Like Dale Jr., he has the pedigree. Good race, the 'pups' are giving the old timers all they can handle theae days!
I had replaced the fuel filter in my duramax and about a month later it started to die randomly. Get out and pump it and it would start up and run for a while but after sitting for a few hours it wouldnt start... found the filter was loose and caused a small leak.. I would dbl check the fuel filters first wipe them off and see if any drissle is on them at all after you drive a little.. clean everything and then drive like mentioned.
Well, I'm proud of myself. It may be a simple task but everything is new the first time. I changed both the primary and secondary filter's, pictures attached, and the engine actually started when I was finished. Ran for about a minute then died. I shut the ignition off waited a few minutes, switch the ignition on it's starting and running fine.
I cleaned as much of the splatter as I could find from the engine and will clear by the VMSPC codes and take her out for a drive and see what happens.
Stay tuned.
Quick follow up. Small oring goes on FS1022 secondary fuel filter shaft. Wasn't on previous filter installed at mot but confirmed it should be there. Removed filter and installed.
Randy, I would change where I buy my fuel.
So, the fuel leak was from the secondary fuel filter?
Those are some scrungey filters. Did you find the leak?
Nasty!
With that trip coming up I would have at least 3 or more sets of filters on board.
Not sure how small oring on filter shaft would cause a external leak. To me it just appears to force fuel to go to outside of filter element and flow to center. Not sure how a outside leak would occur because of lack of that oring, as big oring on outside of filter seals fuel in regardless of whether or not small oring is there or not. Although in Randy's case, filter appears to work very well.
Perhaps Brett could explain this.
Yup, fuel comes into the filter through the small outer holes. To engine through large center hole.
Lack of an O ring around the center would allow some mixing of filtered vs unfiltered fuel. The more clogged the filter, I suspect the more would go directly to the outlet. Agree, don't see how that would cause an external fuel leak.
But, looking at the filters the FS1022 (secondary filter) still caught some of the contamination, but not nearly as much as the primary.
I am surprised you were able to get to full power with that restriction.
I would sure use a kill dose of algicide (should be able to find Biobar JF pretty easily in FL-- it is widely used in boats). Would also use something to treat asphaltene-- Cummins stocks one.
Suspect that the filters are clogged with EITHER algae or asphaltene. If it feels slimy, probably algae.
Makes sense, original error code "low delivery pressure" might very well indicate clogged filters. Maybe new filters will solve the problem.
No question, new filters will allow a LOT more fuel flow!
I use this for asphaltene with good results;
Amazon.com: Penray 105032 Total Diesel Fuel System Cleaner - 32-Ounce... (https://www.amazon.com/Penray-105032-Diesel-System-Cleaner/dp/B00G4TWBDA/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1525126248&sr=1-1&keywords=Penray+105032&dpID=41XzKeSETvL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch)
Brett - NO. No evidence of leak source. I cleaned previous splatter and ran the engine on high idle for a half hour today, principally to check newly installed filters. No leaks and no splatter.
Tomorrow I'll run it down the interstate for an hour or so to see if it throws codes of evidence of splatter.
Have a Friday appt at Cummins in Ft Myers in case issues remain.
OK, so these replies add additional questions:
1. Brett - I have Biobar JF in the coach. Would a "kill dose" also lead to clogging the filter's I just replaced? if so, how long to change? How many changes would be required?
2. The tank of fuel I have now is the first to also contain a "clean-up" concentration of Power Service Diesel Kleen +Cetane Boost. Is this a asphaltene cleaner? If so, could this have been the source of contamination?
I didn't see any "slime" in the fuel that I drained from the filters. There were some black particles...not a huge quantity but more than a few.
I'm now concerned that if the tank is "cleaning" itself I'll have this as a recurring problem for some period of time?
Regarding Diesel Kleen & asphaltene I found attached bulletin from Cummins re: this product.
NEVER EVEN HEARD OF ASPHALTENE UNTIL TODAY!
NO, Biobar JF only kills the live algae, and prevents them from multiplying. Said another way, with the algaecide, you have limited the contaminants to those in the tank when you added the biocide instead of allowing them to multiply.
Yes, your filters will have to remove the dead/existing contaminants.
UPDATE:
After changing both fuel filters and wipin down engine bay I took coach for a ride on the interstate. Couldn't tell a dramatic difference in acceleration, but them I never really had much of an acceleration issue.
After about 15 miles, however, I did get the check engine light again, briefly. And the same codes were shown on the VMSPC.
It was also interesting that when I returned there was no evidence of leaks or splatters anywhere on the engine that I could find.
I think I'll keep the appointment I have for Friday at Cummins in Fort Myers so they can look further into this fuel pressure delivery question. If it weren't for the fact that we were heading out for the next six months I'd be inclined to continue using it locally since the engine has never derated due to this issue.
Betting on a lift pump issue or possibly, an air leak/supply hose issue. Other guess would be a fuel solenoid sticking.
Pierce
Understand what derated means but not sure what derating has to do with a fuel problem?
John, I guess I meant only that issue hasn't shut engine down or limits power...at least so far.
Sometimes after treating fuel you might have to go through several fuel filter changes before it clears up. The filters will remove all the stuff that the treatments killed. Cheapest and easiest way to find out is to carry at least 3 sets of fuel filters with you, run several tanks of fuel through, and see what happens.
We live full time in our coach and if needed there are Cummins shops around the country to go to . If no leaks, it might be you need to run all the contaminants out through the filters. Try the simple and least expensive things first.
Best of luck ^.^d
Just pulled in to Cummins Ft Myers. And, NO codes on the 60 mile trip down. With LUCK it will turn out to be clogged filters (now replaced) helped along by initial clean-up dose of Diesel Kleen.
Nice small Cummins facility here. Friendly folks.
Will post results.
Interim update. Tech ran diagnostics and told me that Cummins periodically provides updates to ECU programming to address issues that can be managed through these updates. Our 2000 coach last had the ECU update in 2001 so he applied a cumulative update as a first step. I know NOTHING about this stuff, but it sounds like Windows updates on a computer. Running engine now and tech will take it on a drive to try and load the engine to see result. Not a conclusion but an interesting interim update.
Randy,
I always ask what the updates are addressing. In many cases, they are for emissions only. And, could lower HP or MPG. Let's face it, the three are a balancing act. Yes, it takes a savvy tech who has kept up with factory bulletins to know.
Another update...I've been told that the fault codes resolved by the ECM update deal with "fuel metering"...presumably this caused what I "felt" in the hesitation and the resulting "fuel pressure delivery" code shown on the VMSpc.
Cummins states ECM update fixes a known random issue related to Caps Pump fuel pressure sender which can send random signals regarding fuel pressure....too hi...too low, thus triggering Check Engine light. Said there were lots and lots of these codes when they ran diagnostics.
Sounds good....not sure it feels as good as a known "broken" part. But, certainly less expensive.
Randy-let's hope that is all it is.
I still recomend taking 3 sets of fuel filters on the road with you- never know when you might need them.
Cya down the road ^.^d
Have 4 of each and considering changing all 4 before we leave on Friday (2 ea engine and gen).
Very good idea, better at the house than on the freeway, Will also give you idea how fast you can expect your filters to clog up. If not too dirty, bag them up and save for emergency use.