Foretravel Owners' Forum

Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Roland Begin on June 06, 2018, 04:56:54 pm

Title: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on June 06, 2018, 04:56:54 pm
I need some brake work done. Passenger side rear brakes are kaput. Will explain later when I have more time. I am beat Indianapolis IN. Any recommendations.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: wolfe10 on June 06, 2018, 05:07:04 pm
I would have the helper springs installed at the same time along with what else is needed.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: John S on June 06, 2018, 07:08:51 pm
I had luck with the Cummins shop in town when I needed stuff done. I use Cummins in VA and they did my brakes a while ago.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on June 06, 2018, 08:10:52 pm
John, I called them they only work on Cummins engine, at least in Indianapolis.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: wolfe10 on June 06, 2018, 09:02:22 pm
If you don't get first hand recommendations, contact a local fire station.  Many fire trucks use the same air disk brakes.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Ed W on June 06, 2018, 10:28:54 pm
You can give Bauer Bilt tires a call and tell them what you have to see if they will do it. The other possible places in Indy are Warner Truck Spring and Indianapolis Spring (I think both are the same company with two locations). Bauer Bilt is on the south side of Indy, just south of exit 4 on Interstate 465.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on June 07, 2018, 06:18:07 am
Bauer Bilt near Chicago butchered my lugs when I bought tires. They then told me they could not repair the damage because they only sell tires. They had to cut the left rear wheel off with a torch because the "tech" didn't know the left side of the coach has reversed threads. NO WAY will I ever do business with them again!
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on June 07, 2018, 01:14:30 pm
OK more relaxed now. So here's the rest of the story. Seems the right rear brakes on the passenger side rear dually was stuck on. No I did not have helper springs. Never noticed any difference while driving down the road. My speed vs tach was same as always. As a result the brake pads wore out and we had steel on steel until something gave. During the final destruction process a piece of metal punctured the inner dually. I pulled over to the side of the road thinking I just had a blowout and needed to get a new tire. When the tire repair tech pulled the inner hub and tire off is when I realized it was more then a "blowout". I was going to cage the brake can but then realized I didn't need to do that as there are no brakes on that wheel. I wanted to get off the side of the road without getting towed so I drove to the Indiana State Fairgrounds very slowly using as little brake pedal as possible.

This morning I  contemplated driving to MOT to get everything fixed. I thought maybe I could drive there. Then I thought of Tennessee RV and thought that would be a better option as they are much closer. Before doing either I took a look at the brakes on the other side and the disc on that side does not give me a comfortable feeling. I had my DW apply the brakes while I watched and the comfort level did not get better.

I went to the a nearby fire station and asked where they get their brake work done after reading  Bret's suggestion. Seems they have their own division that does all their maintenance. They suggested that I call Indiana Spring as they do that kind of work. I have an appointment with them next week.

And the saga continues.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: wolfe10 on June 07, 2018, 01:50:07 pm
Might also check with the fire station maintenance department.

I would be surprised if there was not a tech familiar with our air brake system (need to VERIFY) interested in "moonlighting" for $$.  Most small town maintenance departments will bend over backwards to help travelers in need.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: jor on June 07, 2018, 02:31:36 pm
Another thing to have them check out when you get the work done is your slide pins. On my 97 they were pitted and had to be replaced.
jor
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Protech Racing on June 07, 2018, 04:42:35 pm
You should always note to the tech that you have left hand threads on the work order .
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on June 09, 2018, 02:39:03 am
You should always note to the tech that you have left hand threads on the work order .

Ah that's why I love and hate reading the forums. So much I don't know, so much to learn.
So please enlighten my about the left and right hand threads on the wheels. I'm sure its somewhere in the paperwork that came with the coach, but unfortunately all I have are PDF's and not enough time to read it all. So the lefty loosey, righty tighty doesn't work on fortravels... its it both wheels or just the inners?
Thanks!
Bob
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 09, 2018, 06:48:04 am
Bob,

With your coach being a '99 you should have "Hub piloted" wheels. Your lug nuts should look like they have washers made on them where they come in contact with the wheel.  These are standard threads (lefty loosey, righty tighty, in your words). The "Budd wheels" or also called "Stud piloted" are the ones that have the left hand threads on the left side of the coach. These lug nuts have a taper where the nut comes in contact with the wheel, these studs will have a "L" stamped on the stud end with the left hand threads.  Here is a link (one of many out there) that will help you out and others out understand the difference.  Hub Pilot vs. Stud Pilot – Buy Truck Wheels (https://buytruckwheels.com/pages/hubpilotvsbudd)

Pamela & Mike
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: folivier on June 09, 2018, 07:14:17 am
If you have the chrome plastic lug nut covers and they all unscrew in a counterclockwise motion they are all right hand threads.  These just screw onto the studs.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: wolfe10 on June 09, 2018, 09:50:24 am
The left hand threads would be on the wheel studs on the left side of the coach. 

Generally, they are identified by an L embossed on the end of the stud.

This is not a Foretravel issue-- it is common on HD axles.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: folivier on June 09, 2018, 10:03:02 am
And if the guy removing a tire breaks off a stud stop him and make sure he is going the right way.  Had this happen once and after breaking 3 studs he stopped and told the shop supervisor that all my studs were bad. 
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 09, 2018, 10:34:17 am
Sorry but if you have your studs with no-seize on them and the proper torque, you can easily remove them with a socket and an extension pipe. The same for putting it back on and torquing with either a torque wrench or a bathroom scale. Even if you don't do it yourself, having the tools available for a shop to do it and never letting anyone with an airgun near your coach. Along with owning a coach comes the responsibility of knowing at least the basics about it's operation and systems. If a shop breaks off studs, it's as much your fault as theirs.

Hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers.

Pierce
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: bbeane on June 09, 2018, 11:08:13 am
Be truthful here, how many of you have ever seen a tire shop or road service man use a torque wrench.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: wolfe10 on June 09, 2018, 11:19:26 am
Sorry but if you have your studs with no-seize on them and the proper torque, you can easily remove them with a socket and an extension pipe.

Pierce

Be aware that published torques are for DRY threads.  Nothing wrong with anti-sieze, but then one has to reduce the torque applied, as lubed threads change the equation.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: sam7 on June 09, 2018, 11:21:09 am
Bruce, they use a large torque wrench at Colton Truck Terminal in Colton CA. I was impressed because it is not a tire shop.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on June 09, 2018, 12:03:59 pm
I was going to bring the coach to Indianapolis Spring but was not comfortable when I spoke with the service rep there. Seems he knew everything about everything as brakes were his business and that before he knew what I had for a coach.

Just returned from Dickinson Fleet Services and spent quite a while discussing my problem with a mechanic, Dave, that came in as a favor to a customer. I just happened to be there at the right time to catch him before he left. Spoke at length with him about my problem and felt that this is a better place to bring the coach especially as Dickinson's is a Meritor dealer and they are a Nationwide company. Time will tell if I picked correctly.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: bbeane on June 09, 2018, 12:14:45 pm
Roland I used to use Dickinson's ( in Orlando Fl) for road and job site service on our heavy stuff bus/and medium truck. No problem. Just try to give them as much information as you can find on part #s axle seals and so on.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 09, 2018, 04:34:01 pm
Keep in mind that a torque wrench is only as good as the operator who presets the break-over, AND that it must be properly handled/maintained, and periodically calibrated.  Even the most precise instrument can be rendered totally ineffective by improper use and care.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: amos.harrison on June 10, 2018, 09:11:34 pm
A torque wrench in commercial service should be calibrated at least annually.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: TGordon on June 10, 2018, 11:23:19 pm
I would have the helper springs installed at the same time along with what else is needed.
Helper springs???
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 11, 2018, 07:13:51 am
TG,

Helper springs, slide pin return spring, caliper return springs are all the same thing. As the name states they help the caliper release after the brake pedal has been released. These are for coaches with ADB-1560 disc brakes on them. They are Meritor Kit 15018. Now these are not a fix for wrong or too much grease that has been put into the disc brake Zerk fittings that can cause the calipers to not release. They do help if the slide pins get dirty but not so much if you let the slide pins galled.

If you hunt around here on the Forum there has been lots of discussions about the people that use and praise them and those that don't.

Pamela & Mike


Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on June 24, 2018, 08:54:48 am
Thought I'd update. There was nothing left but the bake cans on the passenger rear brakes as I stated earlier. The mechanic recommended replacing them. I asked them to look at all the rest of the brakes on the coach while they were at it. Result, we are replacing ALL rear brake components. Front brakes are OK. Parts will be received in four or five business days. So we are will be "homeless" for a bit longer. And life goes on.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: bbeane on June 24, 2018, 09:21:21 am
Roland where did you end up going to get the work done? When you say all, calipers as well?
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: nitehawk on June 24, 2018, 09:28:09 am
Roland, isn't peace of mind great? Now you know where your new "starting point" is where your braking system is concerned.
I know your feeling. We just went thru our disc brake pads, front & rear, and a new rotor. Turned out the front pads looked like new. I didn't care what they looked like. I wanted all new. $63 plus installation, greasing and inspection labor charge isn't much for peace of mind. Especially when you have to stand on the brakes in an emergency.

H-m-m-m? $63 parts + maybe $30 labor vs X amount of damage to the coach. I'll take the parts cost anytime.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on June 24, 2018, 10:46:42 pm
Roland where did you end up going to get the work done? When you say all, calipers as well?
The coach is at Dickenson's in Indianapolis. Changing everything on the driver's side may be going a bit beyond but my instructions to Dickenson's was if it's questionable replace it. That statement included the front brakes also but they found those to be in good shape.

Roland

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: bbeane on June 24, 2018, 11:14:41 pm
Glad you are in the process of getting back going.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 25, 2018, 07:31:52 pm
Roland,

Think you are okay with not doing the front brakes if they say they are okay.  The front pads are the same size as the rear, but only do half the work.  The rear brake 4 tires vs. front 2 tires and the cans are larger to apply more pressure.  Sorry you had a problem, glad it wasn't an accident.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: TGordon on June 26, 2018, 12:57:09 am
TG,

Helper springs, slide pin return spring, caliper return springs are all the same thing. As the name states they help the caliper release after the brake pedal has been released. These are for coaches with ADB-1560 disc brakes on them. They are Meritor Kit 15018. Now these are not a fix for wrong or too much grease that has been put into the disc brake Zerk fittings that can cause the calipers to not release. They do help if the slide pins get dirty but not so much if you let the slide pins galled.

If you hunt around here on the Forum there has been lots of discussions about the people that use and praise them and those that don't.

Pamela & Mike



Thank you

TGordon

Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Dub on June 26, 2018, 01:06:06 pm
Be truthful here, how many of you have ever seen a tire shop or road service man use a torque wrench.

Goodyear Tire (wingfoot tire) in Hope Arkansas uses a torque ratchet to check torque on our semi trucks and trailers.. True they use an air ratchet to put them on but the final step is to check lug torque with a torque wrench. But in agreement with you, many or most do not.. Liability exposure is why this tire dealer takes this extra step.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 26, 2018, 01:22:48 pm
Dub, our experience with those few shops that use a torque wrench AFTER air gun is for show only as usually the air gun over torqued them, sometimes by a lot and the torque wrench jus says they are over the setpoint.

Correct way is partly tightening with air and always get nut-movements with torque wrench, which is the only way to know they are tightened to specs.

By far most shops including Nacogdoches Michelin tire shop do not own torque wrench for truck tires.

Shops want to know they did not under torque for liability reasons, but not to protect from stud yielding or stretching.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Dub on June 27, 2018, 09:08:13 am
After a minute's thought I think you may be right Barry.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: nitehawk on June 27, 2018, 09:59:58 am
When we had our brakes done on the coach we were allowed to stay in the coach. I heard the mechanic ask one of the younger guys to go get the "BIG" torque wrench, the one that can torque either right or left hand. The young guy says "oh, the 4' long handle one?"
I watched out the window as the mechanic ran the lug nuts snug with the air impact wrench then stopped almost immediately. He then proceeded to use the "BIG" torque wrench. He told the young guy that Budd wheels had to be torqued between 400 & 500 FTLBS.
Made me fell confident about the quality of work we were receiving from Southside Tire in Weston, WI.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on July 03, 2018, 06:07:10 pm
Got a call from Dickinson's today coach will be ready Friday morning. We will leave for Indianapolis on Thursday and get back on the road. Been a witch being homeless.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: RandallBrink on July 06, 2018, 04:40:50 pm
This is excellent advice and info I would never have thought of.
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on July 06, 2018, 05:17:55 pm
OK picked up the coach early this afternoon. Here is my assessment of Dickinson's in Indianapolis. The work that was done was first class. They checked the driver's side rear brakes as I requested and found them in need of replacement. I saw the old parts and yes they needed doing. The cost was not cheap, nothing is cheap on this coach but they came in under the estimate and that's a first for me. I was in New Hampshire while they worked on the coach so I could not "watch" the process. Communication with them while the coach was being worked on went very well. Bob told me the coach would be ready before noon today and it would have been had one of the lug nuts not started slipping. They missed by a couple hours that was OK with me.

I spoke with the technician that worked on the coach and he showed me the old parts. Nothing but metal on metal on the driver's side. The bearings and races were toast. Bearing races and seals were all replaced as well as the calipers disc and brake cans.The mechanic had a hard time finding parts for the brake system. He wound up calling Fotetravel (he found Fotetravel phone number in our coach) and they hooked him up with their supplier. The calipers were assembled in NJ and shipped to Indianapolis.

The not so good stuff.
This outfit works on heavy equipment I was the only RV there although they do work on recreation vehicles. The inside of the coach was not kept clean. One of our carpet runners will have to be cleaned have to wait and see how that comes out. There was no paper on the floor, had I had a wall to wall rug I would have thrown a fit. They did cover the driver's chair with plastic and that did not get any stains or dirt on it so there's that. The refrigerator was not running while the coach was in the shop so we lost everything in the refrigerator and freezer. Wasn't a lot but it's a mess to clean up.

Would I go there and would I recommend them. Yes but I would empty the refrigerator and freezer if it was a long term job and I would insist BEFORE work was done that they cover the floor.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on July 06, 2018, 05:34:36 pm
I HATE to ask so many questions before being serviced, but it's gotta be done, otherwise you get that 'blank stare'. Did they space-out plugging the coach in for the fridge? Did the fridge not switch over to propane, or did they shut that off, too?
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Roland Begin on July 06, 2018, 06:28:03 pm
Mike, the refrigerator was set up to switch automatically. They did not plug it in an I guess they did not like an absorption refrigerator running on propane in an unoccupied shop. Like I stated they work on RV'S but it's not their primary business. We should have emptied the thing out. I have too assume most of the responsibility for that. I put it in my post so that if anyone else uses their facilities they can take it into consideration. Not a biggie for me especially after visiting the alternative shop.

Roland
Title: Re: Brakes
Post by: Mike Leary (RIP) on July 06, 2018, 07:19:57 pm
Hope to see you in Ajo, we'll be down in September, how about you? You'll like the owner of the other FT in town ('the orphan'). Maybe we can convince him that she deserves better!