We've been dry camping the last week and last nite I noticed the pump cycle every hour or so. This morning I see water where the fresh tank meets the floor. What I see might amount to a 1/4 to 1/2 cup. No evidence of water on the opposite side where the pump is located.
We leave today for full hookups until we arrive at Oregon for oil changes and I'll add this to their list. I assume this leak must originate somewhere in the tank or related plumbing so my thought is to drain that tank and use bottled water for the toilet and drink8ng while we're on the road. What's the likelihood that this leak would also affect full hookup water use?
Thanks
Very likely it would leak more with hookups suggest only using the pump and turning it off after each use until leak solved.
I agree. The fact that the pump is cycling when you are not using water suggests that the leak is in the "pressurized part" of the water system, not the tank.
Be sure to de-pressurize when not using water until you fix it-- your rear bulkhead will appreciate your efforts to keep water out of there.
So you're suggesting staying on the tank and not drain and use city water hookups?
Yes.
Because the pump cycles, that suggests that the leak is on the pressurized side of the water system. Shore water pressurizes the same pipes, but usually at higher pressure.
So, until you can locate and fix the leak, use the pump, but turn it off and open a faucet to depressurize it.
Look closely at the fittings on the back of the water heater. And as others have said just use you pump, hooked to city will make it worse.
And, keep rags/old towels in there to keep the basement dry until you do fix it.
That small amount of water could be condensation, from filling the tank with cold water in a humid environment. Depending on where we are at, we try to avoid using the fresh water tank, if those conditions exist. Does your city water hose have a cap on it?
Just a uggestion... because.. it happened to me.
Had a similar situation.. but did have water on pump side.. sitting in drive.. must have left the pump on...so I tipped to bay side it ran out and I dried it all with towels and hair dryer blowing through. Next day no drip on pump side or fittings :o ... but damp on bay side... checked fittings.. under pump pressure... nadda :headwall: shore pressure on....put down 3-4 folded paper towels in fron of bay pannel
That afternoon... just a little wet spot in the middle of paper towels..... the seat from the faucet had failed and I would get two or 3 drips every 10 to 15 minutes...PROBLEM SOLVED ^.^d
Hope this helps
Agreed, if water cold, dew point high you can get condensation.
BUT, that would not cause the pump to cycle when no demand.
Possibly leaking fresh water check valve.
Took a look on the passenger side of the utility bay no water on the floor there, no water I could feel at the pipe fittings coming in and out of the pump nor in the area of the manifold.
Yes, another possibility, as it is on the "pressurized" side of the water system.
You definitely have a leak somewhere and you need to find it and repair it. Plumbing repair in an RV is not easy. Once you find the leak it can be very difficult to get at.
Good luck!
I'm assuming you checked the connections to the kitchen and bath faucets and toilet, but thought it worth mentioning.
Randy,
Do you have a water hose reel in your water tank compartment? If not and if your setup is like my 34' there is nothing to leak on that side of the compartment except the tank. Hard to believe that that would be the issue. On mine, the adjacent compartment has many of
the pressurized water line fittings on both sides: Behind the wet bay wall and behind the carpeted manifold cover on the other side. I would pull that carpeted cover and check and also the wet bay cover.
Good luck.
jor
Water has a odd way of showing up somewhere far away from the problem, it's called 'gravity'. This leak I saw on the other side of the coach, lucked out because I did not test the system with the on board pump, like I do now, every once in a while! ^.^d
Thank goodness FT does NOT use pressboard!
Arrived in Needles California. Full hookups and 50 amp so tomorrow morning I'll tackle the leak. balmy 106 degrees but driver side will have shade in the morning.
I'm betting on a leak behind the panel in the utility bay. I'll pull the panel where the water faucet is located, pressurize the system and look. Haven't had that top panel off but it looks like running a razor on the caulk line and remove the screws. I understand all wiring in that area has enough slack to pull it away far enough to have a look behind.
Today there was no appearance of water on the driver side. I pulled the manifold cover and
Poked at each water connection,,,dry. I felt around the water pump and water heater...dry. Doesn't mean it's not leaking there, just that it wasn't wet when I checked.
In the meantime we'll use the pump sparingly and depressurize between uses. I've got a bunch of rags to sop up any wetness.
Other ideas welcome.
Randy
I notice a very slight filling of the toilet with the pump left on. Runs the pump about every 1/2 hr for 3 secs .
At 106 in the desert, any slight leak won't show itself very long before it evaporates.
Any possibility the leak is internal in the pump be itself? Leaking from the pressure side back to the tank side? That would cause the pump to cycle without any visible leak.
Like Brett Wolfe said you have a leak on the pressurized side of the system, could be the pump or connections at the pump, the pressure tank if you have one, or some other fitting, maybe even the hot water tank. If you had an internal leak in the pump causing it to cycle you would not see any water. Keep looking and you will find it.
I pressurized the system this morning and could see no leaks from the driver side utility bay with the panel removed. I rechecked the passenger side and discovered that both the cold and hot water fittings to the water heater have a slow leak. It appears the gasket in the female connections has deteriorated.
So it's off to find a hardware store to get a socket large enough to remove the hot water tank drain and cone ? washers to replace those that have deteriorated.
Glad you found the source. Your rear bulkhead will appreciate your efforts.
Use only original pex white rubber cone washers, ask me how I know.
Leak caused by deteriorated washers on the pex lines feeding the back of the water heater. More drip than running water.
Don't know about the white washers but the ones on the lines were black and the ones I replaced them with were black.
Found attached at Home Depot and had to shave them down as the we're too tall.
Hardest part was unscrewing and reattaching the supply lines one handed through the small round access hole in wall of the adjacent bay.
Randy,
That will work a while but for your info the replacement washer info you need is PEX/ ZURN # QSETFC 1/2" washers. A good plumbing store will most likely give you a couple as they usually have some in the bottom of some of there bins that have fell off fittings. Yep that is the part number.
Mike
Mike, thanks. Do you have a source? Amazon sellers want $5.40 per washer...can that be true?
The last time I bought some (about 6 months ago) they were ~$15 for 100. For the AMZ price of $5.40 each they should at least give you a kiss... A PEX plumbing supply company will have them in bulk so look around.
Mike
I've always just picked up a few at a local RV store. They are cheap and look and feel just like the originals. Never had any problems.
jor
Now that I understand our plumbing better I'm going to replace all the 18 year old rubber cone washers to avoid future leaks!
I bought a few last year at a RV place in Knoxville, TN for .69 each.
We were getting ready for a trip to New Mexico when I found water under the coach. Took the outside water closet apart to investigate. Only thing I could figure is that the outside faucet must have been open a bit. Dried everything out zipped it all up connected it to water; same problem. Only thing I can think of at this time is a leaking valve in the bathroom vanity. There are no water lines that run rearward of that compartment. No time to play now will have to look into it later. Not gonna take the coach took NM. Water my nemesis.
Roland
This one is a b&_#h. I see the water dripping like Niagra Falls outside under the rear bulkhead. Dry beneath the vanity, shower, toilet. Dry on top of the tanks where the water lines run. Wet in the compartment where the grey and black water tanks are Wet behind the panel in the outside water closet, looks like it's coming from under the tanks. All water fittings are dry. It's fresh water that is leaking, only leaks when the lines are pressurized. Looks like the water is coming from under the grey and black tanks but I don't believe there are water lines under there. Yes it's fresh water that is leaking. Water pump compartment is dry. From what I can tell it's been leaking a while. Rear bulkhead is shot. Keep tearing things apart till I find the sucker.
Roland
Roland I had the same problem. Couldn't find it anywhere! Turned out the "spun in" OEM fitting into the bottom of the fresh water tank that connected to the fresh water intake and low point tank drain. It wasn't a visible volume (or so it seemed) but spread across the tanks and water close and pump/water heater area is small amounts. We ultimately pulled the belly skin and realized we needed a basement structure rebuild. On the next trip, we found a stream of water coming out from between the skins. literally after weeks of searching we found two weeping, dripping polybutyl swivel connectors. We replaced those and pipe with PEX and flair fittings and so far, so good. Sorry for the long story. The fittings were attached to the turn off the OEM regulator after our mechanical reel and at a turn behind the water closet wall.
Thanks for the info Alan.
I'm wondering if anyone has a schematic for the plumbing in a 1993 U280? Kinda working blind. I'll replumb the whole coach if I have to, but would like to see how FT ran the lines. I hadn't checked the ice maker yet did that this morning and yep it's dry. Draining the fresh water tank now before I go any further. The leak is somewhere in the pressurized lines whether they are pressurized by outside supply or by the water pump. Gonna be disconnecting lines and I don't need extra water coming out of the tank.
And yes my pump cycles but we have an RO system for drinking and cooking water with a seven gallon tank so it's difficult too determine if you have a leak with the pump on. In addition we always keep the pump off unless we are using water, compounds the issue.
Roland
Just an FYI from experience with original post. Leakin fittings on the back of the water heater are at the extreme inside of the water pump bay on our coach. Because of a slight side to side lean toward drivers side it appeared water pump bay was dry and water seemed to originate from the "utility" bay side leading me to incorrectly concentrate on water fill side. Eventually I discovered that although water was showing up on drivers side utility bay it was cut ally originating in the passenger side water pump bay. I now routinely reach up in the back of the water heater to check.
I believe I have found the problem. I removed the expansion tank and pressurized the system. Left it pressurized for four hours and no leaks. I will leave the system pressurized overnight and see what happens. The bladder in the expansion tank is toast. I think water was leaking from the expansion tank. My tank is the original that was installed in 1993. Will be looking for a replacement but I will also look for an alternative place for it. May use one of the tanks I have four RO water. Not full-time any longer so a 3 1/2 gallon RO tank should be OK. I can use the second tank for a water supply expansion tank.
Roland
Roland,
I moved our tank from the wet bay to inside the coach under the bathroom sink. Opens up the water pump/water heater bay area - much easier to work on leaks and other stuff.
Water Pump Accumulator Tank (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=30068.msg258043#msg258043)
Nice setup Chuck. May follow your example. Makes for a cramped space where it is now that's for sure.
Still running tests at the moment. left the water pump on all night no leak this AM. Shutoff the water pump and turned the outside water spigot on shouldn't make a difference but will leave it on for 24 hours. If I don't have any leaks I will consider the problem solved and button everything up.
Roland
Great idea! The tank gets in the way and I could probably store filters in there. You have to lie on your back to do any work behind it.
Pierce
#@$& water. Installed the new expansion tank, got the water hooked up and turned on and I still have a leak. This tank is pressurized at 40#, couldn't pressurized the old one. Water pump compartment is dry and all fittings are dry. Water and electrical hookup compartment driver's side wet but all fittings are dry. Water dripping from the bulkhead. I had everything pressurized with water without the expansion tank and no leak. All my fittings are dry. Back of water heater dry. All water fittings on the driver's side are dry. Water tank is 3/4 full. Almost seems like the tank itself is leaking from the bottom. Not sure how to test for that. That tank does not look like it's easy to replace.
Time to watch some football.
Roland
If it is the tank, should leak the same amount with pump on or off, shore water on or off (the latter, assuming the check valve in the pump is not leaking and the fill valve is closed and not leaking-- if either not functioning it would fill/overfill the tank).
Thank you Brett you found my leak. After reading your post I Went out and checked the audit monitor. Audit monitor showed the fresh water tank full but I only filled it to the 3/4 mark. So the water is leaking by the tank fill valve under the vanity or the pump. When I was testing the system under pressure during my troubleshooting I didn't give it enough time to fill the top of the tank before I buttoned stuff up. Not sure why it's leaking inside and not through the overflow hose but I'll take care of that. I have a spare pump and with the shutoffs I have it's easy to replace so I'll try that first then go to the valve.
Roland
It's never easy.
I drained the system and changed out the water pump because it was the easiest to switch, read on and you will understand, I had a spare pump and it seemed to me that the pump diaphragm was the more likely culprit. Filled the fresh water tank to the the 1/4 mark then closed for valve under the vanity sink. Left the system pressurized and a few hours later I checked the water level and don't you know the level was at the half full mark. So now I have too change out the water fill valve under the vanity.
As an aside during this process the kitchen sink drain decided to start leaking. It was the original drain. I had to use a dremel tool to get the drain off. Was not that difficult too replace but enough already.
To access the plumbing under the vanity I have to remove the bottom drawer. BUT the toilet is in the way. So I have too remove the toilet to remove the bottom drawer. Several years ago I bought a replacement flap for our Microphore toilet, never installed it cause I didn't want to remove the toilet. Guess I'll install it now.
It's never easy.
Roland
Looks like you are near the end of the problem. Hate it when one thing leads to another. Hope all goes as planned now.
Finally got the fill valve removed and yep it's was sleeping water. BUT that is not my problem. Oh and I pressure checked the water pump diaphragm and that's OK. Through all of this I've wondered how an overfull fresh water tank can leak in the basement. It didn't make sense. And we never leave the pump on and we are never hooked to water. The leak started when I hooked up to water cooled the tank to 3/5 and left the system pressurized. A leaking diaphragm or a bad fill valve would cause the tank to overflow but not in my basements. Not unless the overflow hose is plugged and it's not. My leak is in the fresh water tank itself as far as I can tell. The water is coming from the compartment where the fresh water tank is located (looks like it's coming from under the tank) going across to the wet bay and out.
As I said when I began this saga water is my nemesis.
Anyone ever exchange a fresh water tank in a U280? Is it a big deal or am I putting the coach in a salvage yard? Sure looked like more then I want to tackle. Well wouldn't do that just yet we'll just keep our little motel room for family visitors. But eventually that's where it'll end up. Works fine hooked up to water as long as the tank is empty.
Roland
I am seeing a leak with the tank at 1/4 full and the water is on the driver's side of the coach. So the overflow hose doesn't come into play.
I'm thinking of cutting the old tank out and installing a smaller fresh water tank. We'll only be using the coach for short trips so a hundred gallon tank isn't necessary.
Roland
Maybe using flexseal could be appropriate? At least until you can get a handle on cost and replacing.
I wouldn't trash the old tank it will come out in one piece. You remember my tank leaking at Quartzsite? The 1/2" male fill inlet was cracked across the threads. I pulled it out with no problems and for $20 I had a new fitting spun on in Yuma. I'm sure you can have the tank repaired.
I had to repair the one in the '81 FT easier to get out than yours but like Doug said it can be repaired. I had one made for my old Vogue when it failed.
Roland,
Whatever you do, do NOT let water continue to sit in the wet bay--that is death for the rear bulkhead.
Roland I had the same problem. Chased it for a year. I finally pulled the freshwater tank and found the lowermost tank fitting was a "spun in" style OEM and THAT was where it was leaking. Repaired the connection and no more leak into the basement. Sad to say, next step was rebuilding the basement but, it's done. No telling how many years that slow leak had been weeping.
I hope this is my final entry on this thread. I removed everything on the hot water heater side, left the hot water heater alone. Replumbed with sharkbite fittings and gasoila on the threaded fittings into the water tank. I filled the tank to the halfway mark and let everything set for a couple hours. Everything is dry. It wasn't the spunon tank fittings that were leaking but the adapters that were threaded into the tank fittings. Foretravel used Teflon tape on those fittings, well someone did, in any case Teflon tape is NOT a sealer and that's what was leaking. Going too let it set overnight and if it is still dry in the AM I will call it fixed.
A hundred and fifty dollars in parts for a $.50 fix. I believe gasoila on the original fittings would have taken care of the leak. However the fill valve under the cabinet in the bathroom was leaking. I installed two Sharkbite shutoff valve for the outside "shower" faucet, (was always nervous with the handles on those faucets) replaced a bad expansion tank and installed new Sharkbite shutoff valves and a new water pump (had a spare and figured it was a good time to replace the ten year old pump).
Now I have to replace the flapper in the Microphor toilet and re-install the toilet Oh the Joy of it all.
Roland
Everything was just fine until I filled the water tank to get maximum head pressure on my fittings. You guessed it I had a leak. I believe however that I overtightened the inlet fitting and broke it. Wasn't leaking there before is now. Called a place in Phoenix that does spin welding but they wanted most of my retirement income to do the job. And I had to bring the tank to Phoenix leave it and go back so I said scr#$ this I'm going to fix it myself.
The first picture shows the pressure/leak test on the assembly I fabricated. The assembly is a piece of plastic from cutting board I purchased at Walmart. The through fittings are hose fittings that I purchased from Amazon . The sharkbite fittings are two that I already had in my spare parts.
The second picture is my executed solution.
The third picture is the system I used to bond my assembly to the water tank.
I will fill the tank and if I have a leak from the assembly I will weld the perimeter of the assembly. I may weld it if it doesn't leak haven't decided yet.
I will post my results when I completed the leak test.
Roland
Roland where did you get the sealers etc
JohnH
I bought the bonding system from Amazon after a bunch of research. It's a three step process. Tech - Bond is the manufacterer
1 spray both pieces with the Poly Prep and let dry....dries quickly
2 spray ONE surface with Activator/Accelerator and let dry. And apply heat with a hair dryer.
3 Apply the SI Blue to the other surface.
Then you put the two surfaces together and hold them for them for fifteen second and that's it.
According too their literature the adhesion is at a molecular level. I've seen demonstrations on YouTube where they adhered a silicone rubber piece to polypropelyne. I do know that my piece of cutting board is adhering well at this point. Going too fill the tank tomorrow and see how it goes.
Roland
Final entry on this issue. I still had small leaks after soldering the seam of the cutting board to the water tank. Tried many times to resolder the areas that were leaking with no results. I only succeeded in making a mess of already messy attempts at soldering the seams. Kent Speers recommended applying 3M 5200 Marine adhesive sealant to the problem areas. I covered the entire area with the 3M sealant, let it cure for ten days. Today I put a hundred gallons of water in the tank and no leaks. Photo shows the application of the sealant as well as my testing method and results. Thank you Kent.
Roland
Sounds like a good product to carry a little 3 oz of. If it is used to seal thru hulls on a boat, it sounds like an excellent sealer, as long as it is not something you might have to remove easily later.
3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200, PN05203, White, 3 oz Tube Amazon.com: 3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200, PN05203, White, 3 oz Tube:... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000AY6AO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_qLFkEb9VKH9FH)
I carry the 3M 4000, 4200, and 5200. Covers most anything I should need.https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=510
John
I try to buy the smallest tube. The tips always glog up and making it difficult to use the next time. Anyone have any preventive storage secrets they would like to share?
John M.
John,
I have used 5200 for over 35 years and have never found a way to keep it from "glogging" up after it has been initially used. What I have done is, after the top part of the tube has solidified, cut a slit in the side of the tube to get one last use out of the tube before throwing it away.
If someone else has a good way of preserving it, I would love to know.
Richard
This might help keep it from getting hard as fast.
The removeable tips I put a zip tie ( big end) in the back side of the tube and let it dry that should make it easier to pull out with a pair of pliers. On tubes that the tips are not removeable, instead of putting a screw or nail in the tip, I use duck tape cover the end and it will help keep most of the air from getting in.
NO guarantees
Just my two ccents
I wear the disposable gloves when working with sealants-- get plenty from my bother, a dentist.
When finished, I pull off the little finger part of the glove and use tape to hold it firmly over the tip. Does a good job of keeping air out.
Also, my boat partner taught me a trick when working with SikaFlex or 3M products or any thick caulk like sealants, especially ones like 5200 and Sikaflex - he masks off where he wants the sealant to stop - and smooths the sealant down from what the joint he is sealing to the edge of the masking tape. After he has the sealant looking like he wants and before it sets up he removes the masking tape and the clean up is almost nothing, while the job looks nice and tidy.
Try it, you may find it simpler and less messy.
Thought I'd post a couple photos. This is the position I had to get into to hook up the water tank sensors. I did not want to remove the hot water heater as it works and does not leak. Another ten pounds and I wouldn't fit.
Roland
Your water heater setup looks similar to mine. When faced with the prospect of attaching SeeLevel strips to my fresh water tank, I decided it would be nice to have a "inspection port" allowing access to behind the water heater. Made the job MUCH easier!
Behind the Water Heater Access Port (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37421)
Chuck I like your solution, would have made the job an awful lot easier. Will have to keep it in mind in case I have to get back there again.
Roland
On the bright side you can skip the yoga class this week! Sorry we missed you in Puerto Peñasco!
see ya
ken